More Bad News for Russia

[Brasscasing]

That is not what happened. Brass, can you step out of 2013 for a moment? Did you not read what happened after 2013 in the links I provided? Jane's is the premier expert on the worlds weapons and read what they have to say below in a Nov 2014 article. "Congress unsuccessfully tried to halt the purchase due to Russia's military support for Syria, and later over the Ukraine crisis" Everything you thought happened in 2013 did not happen and the Pentagon continued to buy the helicopters and pay money to Russia. Congress didn't have power to tell the Pentagon what to do. Obama does. Congress asked the Pentagon to STOP IMMEDIATELY, and not honor the rest of the contract. The Pentagon initially agreed probably so they could look good in the press and keep Americans happy but instead, they continued to defy Congress. Somebody really wanted this deal to proceed against Congress's wishes and Obama is America's top general. Not hard to figure out.

http://www.janes.com/article/45317/afghanistan-gets-final-mi-17s

Another article that says Pentagon sidestepped Congress. Doesn't matter if Russia is helping Assad or hurting Ukraine, we proceeded to do business with Russia and let them profit while they're invading Ukraine.

http://archive.defensenews.com/article/20131101/DEFREG01/311010011/Russia-Delivers-12-Helos-Afghan-Army

Yet the links I provided all state the contract was cancelled in Nov 13. Here's another one...

Pentagon ending buys of Russian-made helicopters

http://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-ending-buys-russian-made-helicopters-215516842--politics.html

There's no doubt that the contract, procurement and cancellation were controversial as Jane's reports but you're including editorial comment with the events surrounding the cancellation itself which doesn't change the time line.

In your Defense news link above dated Nov 1, 13 it states...

"Completion of deliveries of the latest batch of Mi-17s leaves a further 30 of the rotorcraft to be handed over to the US in 2014 under a $572 million deal Rosoboronexport signed earlier this year"...

The contract was not yet cancelled. It was cancelled mid Nov 13 as my link above reports...

..."November 13, 2013 5:49 PM WASHINGTON (AP) — The Defense Department said Wednesday it is canceling plans to buy additional cargo helicopters from the Russian arms export agency that has supplied Syrian President Bashar Assad's military forces with arms and ammunition."...

So, according to Jane's...

"In 2013, Rosoboronexport and the US government reached and signed an agreement for delivery in 2014 of an extra batch of 30 helicopters."...

That agreement was signed in 2013 before the cancellation. Russia delivers in 2014. That was the last shipment as reported by the Defense News above.

No ongoing agreements signed after Nov 13 and one delivery made in 2014 fulfilling the agreement signed in 2013, right?

So some argument and side stepping prior to Nov 13 but there is nothing to show any ongoing agreements after mid Nov 13. If there is I can't find it.

NATO-Russia is not buying the choppers. America did. Your article says NATO-Russia is spending 20 million for maintenance of those choppers and training the pilots. Russia supplies the parts and training, NATO the cash. America spent over a billion, NATO 20 million, and Russia profits the most all while we're telling France to cancel their sale of ships to Russia.

Russia/NATO - I didn't mean to imply they were buying choppers but that they were funding (as in a stakeholder) the program as my link reported. As you've mentioned they were paying for training, spare parts. Yes, the U.S. and NATO were footing the bill and how did I know you'd get that last piece of editorializing in there for good measure.

Brass

 

[fathertime]

None of which negates the fact that Russia has sent troops and supplies to so called "rebels" in Ukraine and has started a war in a neighbouring country for its own internal purposes.  The US did not do this, no matter how much naysayers here wish it to be so.

Which naysayers are you referring to?  Rather then wishing it were true...I'd wish it wasn't true, and to this point it may not be as we haven't sent much if any military supplies/personal  into Ukraine...yet.


Fathertime! 

[jone]

I have been called a lot of things.  Ask Jone.

Why would someone ask me what you've been called?  It is enough for you to know what you've been called.  I don't register stuff like that.

[fathertime]

But no matter what America does, it does not excuse Russia from starting and prolonging a war in a sovereign, democratic nation.

What it does do is put America in a position where we are hypocrites when we intervene when someone does similarly to us....




Fathertime!

[fathertime]

You're welcome to give up your citizenship anytime.  I'm sure that not too many people will cry without your participation in the democratic process.

Joan goes nuclear here because he doesn't like LFU's opinion.   Ridiculous.


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

You're so right dude.  America sucks.  So when are you and FT leaving?  Do you have any good weed?

When are YOU leaving and going to fight what you apparently so strongly believe in?  I don't do drugs, i'm happy with life as it is.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

What it does do is put America in a position where we are hypocrites when we intervene when someone does similarly to us....




Fathertime!

They (meaning Russia) didn't do it to you.  It isn't Americans who are dying in Ukraine.

[AC]

By barely hanging on?  Saddam used take political prisoners and use them to test hand grenades.  He has a whole best of Saddam torture bids on ogrish.com  He would take some torture them in front of their families or rape the wife and daughters in front of their families.  I was in charge of the maintenance of Radiniwiyah palace, the first palace he built for himself in 1979.  It sits atop a man made hill.  He killed the chief architect fearing he would hand over the blue prints to assassins.  He bragged how one Arab could take on a coalition of over 100 countries led by the United States and survived.  His security service the Mukhabarat organized the first effective guerrilla resistance against the invasion force.  He gave safe harbor to Abu Musab Zarqawi who would later establish Al Qaeda in Iraq.  So that is barely hanging on for you eh?

OK.  No arguments here.

No arguments from me either, Sadam Insane is not missed.  Now you need to take what you just wrote and apply it to Russia.  I say this because you were arguing with myself and BB that Russia was not a real threat because of the sanctions and low oil prices.

[fathertime]

You are in denial.  But don't worry the great majority can't even find Ukraine on a Risk board.

Risk, a great game...I still play it every once in a great while with old high school friends....


Fathertime!   

[Steamer]

You love America?  Why?  Its a land of ignorant war mongerers divided by two camps the wimps and hypocrites.  Why would YOU associate much less love America?  Why?

You're thinking of RWD

[fathertime]

Interesting post. 

You realize, of course, that if the West is fully engaged, Russia loses.  Putin understands this.  Otherwise he would have rolled over Ukraine like a steam roller and that would be that.

I don't see the logic in this statement.  So Putin is waiting around invading piecemeal so the west has time to get fully engaged...so he can lose?


Fathertime!   

[AC]

Funny, coming from a guy who probably has never set foot in Russia or Ukraine.  When you planning on putting the keyboards down and making a trip?

I've already been.  And you? 

[Steamer]

You realize, of course, that if the West is fully engaged, Russia loses.  Putin understands this.  Otherwise he would have rolled over Ukraine like a steam roller and that would be that.

That's a very big if. I don't think that the west wants to go to war over a place that it doesn't want. I've said before that the worst thing that could happen to the EU is to 'win' Ukraine and then have to rebuild it. I think that would finish the EU, which is why I think the sanctions will quietly go away.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I've already been.  And you?

Strange how you always avoided that question when people would ask.  Makes one wonder what you are hiding. 


Anyway, I lived there for some time.


I have no plans on going back.  I was originally there for work.  Hopefully some day you will find someone interested in marrying you.    Dating wise, I don't have a problem with American women so no need to travel for that.

[AC]

I don't see the logic in this statement.  So Putin is waiting around invading piecemeal so the west has time to get fully engaged...so he can lose?


Fathertime!   

I think his statement makes sense.  Putin knows the sanctions would likely be increased.  Don't know why he's waiting, but he has been.  Probably wanted to be sure the West ie NATO would not enter Ukraine to help defend Ukraine.  Nobody really knows what he will do, and nobody really knows what NATO's response will be if he does an all out invasion.  He probably wants to just keep taking it small bits at a time and bleeding Ukraine financially.

[Brasscasing]

That's a very big if. I don't think that the west wants to go to war over a place that it doesn't want. I've said before that the worst thing that could happen to the EU is to 'win' Ukraine and then have to rebuild it. I think that would finish the EU.

This is a good observation and worthy of it's own discussion under the heading "Be careful what you wish for" or "Now that we have it what are we going to do with it?" but at the same time does not excuse Russia's actions.

Brass

[jone]

That's a very big if. I don't think that the west wants to go to war over a place that it doesn't want. I've said before that the worst thing that could happen to the EU is to 'win' Ukraine and then have to rebuild it. I think that would finish the EU, which is why I think the sanctions will quietly go away.

I think that if it would come to such a situation, we would see Congress pass a Marshall Plan to augment the reconstruction of Ukraine.

[JayH]

It is pointless discussing what happens in the future- there is no future until the Russian invasion is stopped and forced out of Ukraine.

[Steamer]

This is a good observation and worthy of it's own discussion under the heading "Be careful what you wish for" or "Now that we have it what are we going to do with it?" but at the same time does not excuse Russia's actions.

Brass

Excuse no, explain yes. Russia doesn't need to have some big offensive push in Ukraine, just let them stew in their own juices and see if attitudes change.

[fathertime]

I think that if it would come to such a situation, we would see Congress pass a Marshall Plan to augment the reconstruction of Ukraine.

Spend Billions in Ukraine when we have cities literally drying up without water here in California?   If it came to this, it is not a surprise that many US citizens would continue to be irate that money is spent elsewhere when there is legit. and pressing needs right here at home where money is not spent.  Reminds me of all the money wasted on infrastructure we built in the middle east.


http://screen.yahoo.com/buzzfeed/city-without-water-070142658.html


Fathertime!

[LiveFromUkraine]

Excuse no, explain yes. Russia doesn't need to have some big offensive in Ukraine, just let them stew in their own juices and see if attitudes change.

Isn't that the reason Russia is causing chaos?  To try and cause a regime change and hopefully take back control or influence. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Spend Billions in Ukraine when we have cities literally drying up without water here in California?   If it came to this, it is not a surprise that many US citizens would continue to be irate that money is spent elsewhere when there is legit. and pressing needs right here at home where money is not spent.  Reminds me of all the money wasted on infrastructure we built in the middle east.


http://screen.yahoo.com/buzzfeed/city-without-water-070142658.html


Fathertime!

haha  That would be something else especially when there is talk about gas taxes needing to increase for what...  infrastructure.

[Steamer]

Isn't that the reason Russia is causing chaos?  To try and cause a regime change and hopefully take back control or influence.

Makes sense. Who will blink first; Russia with sanctions or Ukraine with all its troubles?

[fathertime]

haha  That would be something else especially when there is talk about gas taxes needing to increase for what...  infrastructure.

Yeah increase our gas taxes so the money can be sent to Washington, and from there sent to Ukraine *part of which is probably stolen/misused*....all the while we have plenty of infrastructure here that needs money....and is ignored....


Fathertime!   

[Taz]

I think his statement makes sense.  Putin knows the sanctions would likely be increased.  Don't know why he's waiting, but he has been.  Probably wanted to be sure the West ie NATO would not enter Ukraine to help defend Ukraine.  Nobody really knows what he will do, and nobody really knows what NATO's response will be if he does an all out invasion.  He probably wants to just keep taking it small bits at a time and bleeding Ukraine financially.

I read the war was costing Ukraine $6-7 million a day. Based on the size of army Russia has deployed both within and outside Ukraine I would say Russian is probably spending 4-5 times that if not more. They have a much longer supply chain to get stuff there and are paying their people much more to be there. Who knows how much $$$ has changed hands from Russia directly to the terrorist leaders as well.


So while these costs are significant for Ukraine they aren't exactly a drop in the bucket for Russia either given the amount of money they are using to prop up the ruble. Supposedly they need to spend $0-50 billion to try and keep the ruble from totally tanking.


On a side not, a friend of mine's wife is from Crimea with family still there. She was so pro-Russian AFTER they took over but clearly pro-Ukrainian prior to all this. She thought it was going to be the best thing to ever happen for her family in Crimea. Let's just say her, and her family's, thoughts on this have changed after the honeymoon is over. Her family has a serious case of buyer's remorse so to speak and they realize it is going to get much worse. They realize that at least they had a chance if they were unhappy with Kiev and somethings could maybe change. Now they realize with Putin's cronies they are F'd. They now have no status in the rest of the world. Only place they can travel is FSU pretty much and many foreign businesses have totally pulled out only to be replace by super corrupt Russian ones or not at all.