The Propaganda War

[jone]

I'm sorry Bo.  Enlighten me (and probably many in the forum).  What is surzhik?

[Boethius]

Steamer,

Please show evidence of these allegations.  I remember a country where the leader spoke in Russian because his Ukrainian was so poor that people couldn't understand him.  I have been to Ukraine repeatedly before Euromaidan and all of the people that I knew spoke Russian as their first language.  That did not mean that they wanted to be part of Russia, just that they were taught that language since birth.

I agree with you that there is a segment of Ukrainian society that wants only Ukrainian spoken in the country.  But that is not the majority as we have seen over the course of the past year and a half.

Pardon my ignorance on these matters.  I look to your recollections back to your quotes.  Could you provide us with evidence that Russian language was banned and that Russian language schools were forced to shut down?

He will not be able to provide that because it is inaccurate.

Every Ukrainian president, other than Kravchuk, has spoken poor Ukrainian, or Russified Ukrainian.  Including Poroshenko.

Yushchenko relearned Ukrainian.  Tymoshenko (though not a president, but an ardent "nationalist") spoke no Ukrainian, learned it later, speaks with Russian intonations and uses Russian phrasing.

After the collapse, there was a move to enforce Ukrainian language.  Given over a century of policies of Russification, to the extent of starving off ethnic Ukrainians and repopulating their lands with ethnic Russians, moving Russians into positions of power in Western Ukraine where they lorded it over the locals, and ruling Western Ukraine from Moscow, I, personally, supported these policies.  You who have no ties to the region and lack a knowledge of the brutal history and policies of Russification, complete with sending Ukrainian writers and poets to gulags for the "crime" of wanting to speak their language, and where speaking Ukrainian was a career killing act, can lament all you wish the desire for Ukrainians to be free to speak their language, and to build it in their country.  But, I don't see Russians giving their ethnic minorities, including the over 7 million Ukrainians who live there, anywhere near the linguistic rights Russians have in Ukraine. 

[Boethius]

Surzhik is a mix of Russian and Ukrainian.  That is the language most Ukrainians who are not native Russian speakers, particularly escapees (villagers moving to the cities) speak.  It is neither Russian nor Ukrainian.

[Boethius]

Article 10 of Ukraine's Constitution (1996) -

In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed.

As I have posted previously, Ukraine's constitution was highly influenced, and also partly drafted, by diaspora Ukrainians (Canadian lawyers), so its language rights are modelled on linguistic rights guaranteed by Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms.   

As for the Russian that is spoken, elsewhere, a RW posted a youtube link of the "fascist Ukrainians" on the outskirts of a Donbas village before the war had started.  She used as her rationale the fact these "fascists" were speaking Ukrainian.  But, they weren't.  They were speaking Russian exactly as it is spoken in Donbas.  I assumed that was the case, and confirmed it with the better half, who traveled all over the FSU, and if asked, can give you a breakdown of different accents across the former USSR, and the different slang used across Ukraine.  He can mimic most of the accents too, as he often does for FSU people here, who will laugh and tell him "That is exactly how the men in my city/village speak.". 

[Boethius]

This is what activated Ukrainian language rights in L'viv.

http://www.ukrweekly.com/old/archive/2000/270010.shtml

Two Russian youths were arrested for the murder.  One inexplicably left the country.  The charges against the other, the son of Lviv's deputy police chief (all the police in the region after the 1960's were ethnic Russians in the Soviet period, before then, they were mostly Jewish), were dropped.  To this date, no one has been prosecuted for Mr. Bilozir's murder.

Ivasiuk, referred to in the article, was a Ukrainian composer from Chernivtsi.  He composed a lot of popular Ukrainian pop songs, his biggest hit being "Chervona Ruta".  He was killed, allegedly by the KGB (likely) for his nationalist views.  No one has ever been charged with his murder.

[fathertime]

I happened to be browsing about he internet, when this article suddenly appeared on the Huffington Post. 


In reading, it seems that what is at issue is while Ukraine is feverishly attempting to garner international support, they are also cracking down on free speech and rewriting history.....


Ukraine: World War II Fiasco Leads to Public Relations Disaster and Thorny Questions for Kiev and Foreign Diaspora

For Kiev, winning the public relations war against Vladimir Putin would seem to be a no-brainer. For a year now, the Kremlin has conducted a thinly-disguised war of aggression in eastern Ukraine resulting in the deaths of thousands. Yet Kiev seems intent on squandering any international public support it might have had amidst a bizarre crackdown on free speech and censorship of......

[size=78%]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nikolas-kozloff/ukraine-world-war-ii-fias_b_7689804.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592[/size][/size] Fathertime! [size=78%]

[Boethius]

Poroshenko has already vowed to amend that law.  However, the article is a little inaccurate.  The law, tied to one which banned the communist party and communist symbols, recognized UPA and OUN.  It did not outlaw criticism of them.

[Steamer]

Pardon my ignorance on these matters.  I look to your recollections back to your quotes.  Could you provide us with evidence that Russian language was banned and that Russian language schools were forced to shut down?

I'm looking for it. I remember articles and the like that said these things and people being told that they would lose their jobs if they spoke Russian.
I'm trying to find it.

[JayH]

Conversation: The U.S. Media’s Misleading Portrayal of Russia


...Lauren: The way that the American media has put it out there is that Russia is being the aggressor, and instead we're seeing Russia be very reactive instead. NATO starts to build up, then Russia starts to build up. The United States helps support the revolution that took place in Ukraine this past year, Russia then takes Crimea and goes into eastern Ukraine. So it really is a reaction to what is taking place out of the United States and out of NATO....

From Straford.

The 2 proponents are so stupid ridiculous and you quote as supporting what? Being in ridiculous denial of an obvious reality! Their comments are not even the current Kremlin line of BS-so far superceded in Kremlin fiction and in reality.
It seems a noticeable aspect of pro-rus posters here that they get a notion and never move from it-repeating clearly discredited nonsense that is far removed from reality.

For the record Steamer--have you ever been in Ukraine? If so-when were you last there?
I am guessing the answer is never? Or at least not in this century!
Like other midless pro-russers it seems to be a theme-never been there-the disconnect seems a consistent theme

[Boethius]

I'm looking for it. I remember articles and the like that said these things and people being told that they would lose their jobs if they spoke Russian.
I'm trying to find it.

Given that in Eastern Ukraine to this day, most everyone speaks Russian, how accurate could that have been?

Even in Kyiv, which is far more "Ukrainian" than even Kharkiv, Russian is the most common language spoken, and my relatives, for example, have never used Ukrainian either at home or at work.  Therefore, I doubt rather highly the accuracy of any such "report".

There was a negative attitude toward Russian in Western Ukraine, because even in the 1980's there was intense Russification there, and all leading positions were held by Russians ferried in by Moscow, as the locals were viewed as unreliable.  After the collapse of the USSR, there were a lot of disputes not only about language, but also, who owned the churches, as the Orthodox Church had confiscated Greek Catholic churches after WWII.

[Photo Guy]

Conversation: The U.S. Media’s Misleading Portrayal of Russia


...Lauren: The way that the American media has put it out there is that Russia is being the aggressor, and instead we're seeing Russia be very reactive instead. NATO starts to build up, then Russia starts to build up. The United States helps support the revolution that took place in Ukraine this past year, Russia then takes Crimea and goes into eastern Ukraine. So it really is a reaction to what is taking place out of the United States and out of NATO....

From Straford.

This is ridiculous. The Crimean Anschluss began with Putin saying the rebellion in Crimea was the result of a grass roots movement. He said there were no Russian military being sent to Crimea. He said those soldiers had gotten their uniforms from military stores. Ha. He later admitted that the Little Green men were, in fact, Russian soldiers from Russia. Lesson learned: Putin lies about the presence of Russian soldiers. He has done the same thing in eastern Ukraine. The leaders for the rebels, Borodai and Girkin were both Russian citizens. Yes- this makes Russia and the Kremlin look like aggressors. Also, take a look at the Vice interview with
Zakharchenko. He's got Putin's photo on his wall. He tells us:
     “We will liberate all of our compatriots. It’s easy to outflank it(Mariupol) and they will surrender. Don’t forget, our mothers and our sisters live there, so don’t make us out to be bloodthirsty beasts,” he said.

    Any intelligent person would see that as an aggressive statement, not a defensive posture. He's the leader of the new DPR. He doesn't care if Mariupol wants to remain Ukrainian.

BTW, Boethius wrote. '...Yanukovych unilaterally changed the constitution (which he was not legally allowed to do, and which in and of itself, was a violation of his oath of office), and replaced the supreme court judges with judges handpicked by him...'

Exactly! and this should be held up to Putin whenever he blabbers about the illegal 'coup'. Yanukovych was a criminal prior to the Revolution.

[Photo Guy]

Russia is not the aggressor? Ha.

Zakharchenko:
“...We thought, still think and will think of ourselves as a part of the Soviet Union, of Russia..."

Ukraine is NOT Russia. Ukraine is NOT the Soviet Union. Putin does not respect that concept, that reality. For his own self-esteem, he finds it necessary to create a new state where he is the new improved Brezhnev, or the new soviet Czar. His ego can't imagine a more humble self-image. He's ruining Russia.

[sleepycat]

I'm looking for it. I remember articles and the like that said these things and people being told that they would lose their jobs if they spoke Russian.
I'm trying to find it.

Try the RT website..
You'll probably find those crackpot articles you are seeking as well as articles about the faked moon landings.
 

[Anotherkiwi]

Try the RT website..
You'll probably find those crackpot articles you are seeking as well as articles about the faked moon landings.
 

What?  The Russian ones in 1968 that pre-dated Apollo 11?

[JayH]

Try the RT website..
You'll probably find those crackpot articles you are seeking as well as articles about the faked moon landings.
 

He could join his fellow pro-Rus crackpots on another forum who are busy telling the world that 9/11 was faked !

 

[Steamer]

Bo, you're just making this stuff up as you go.
I remember very well 5 or 10 years ago Russian language being banned and Russian schools being forced to shut down in UA. Every manner of discrimination against Russians was allowed to maintain the purity of Ukraine.

I was wrong.


What I found was that things like this were attempted by various people and groups but not implemented because it was impractical or for other reasons. I probably assumed that if it was attempted it was put into law.
My apologies to Bo.

[Muzh]

Bo, you're just making this stuff up as you go.
I remember very well 5 or 10 years ago Russian language being banned and Russian schools being forced to shut down in UA. Every manner of discrimination against Russians was allowed to maintain the purity of Ukraine.

Bullshevik!!


MY SIL has been a teacher for almost 30 years at the same school she went to. In the Soviet days it was a school which gave utmost importance to learning foreign languages and they still have that as their core function. Still, besides the foreign classes, everything else is taught in Russian. Never I heard her say that they were forcing them to dump the Russian language.


But of course, you will say she is lying in order for you to stick to your "reality."

[Boethius]

Contrary to Steamer's assertion, the failure to implement such laws was not due to impracticality.  It is because a)  they can't be, due to the guarantee of language rights in Ukraine's constitution; and b)  the population would not support this.  Even the majority of politicians, almost all of whom speak Russian (or surzhik) not Ukrainian, in their daily lives, would not support this.


This is an example of the propaganda prevalent about Ukraine that is accepted as fact.

[cc3]

I was wrong.


What I found was that things like this were attempted by various people and groups but not implemented because it was impractical or for other reasons. I probably assumed that if it was attempted it was put into law.
My apologies to Bo.

You can't sit in the western world and skim articles about Ukraine on the internet and then 'knowingly' proclaim fictions such as 'no Russian language' schools exist in UA. Well, Steamer, I reside in that supposed 'bastion of fascism', Lviv, with my Russian speaking fiancee and future stepdaughter. On May 30, I was happy to attend stepdaughter's graduation ceremony at her Russian language secondary school. Surprisingly, all of the graduation speakers spoke in Russian! My fiancee and her daughter are Russian speakers who were forced to flee their home of Luhansk by the invading foreign (mostly native Russian) hordes who swept in, illegally, last summer. These are facts, Steamer, not something I dreamed up browsing Russian propaganda sources, such as RT, from the far away safety of my secondary home in the Rockies. My fiancee tells me there is a Russian language school in every education district in Lviv.

It was gracious of you to apologize to Bo. I credit you for that. I live in the reality of present day Ukraine; it is absolutely nothing like the Russophile propaganda machine paints it to be. Steamer, this is a free country, in some ways more free and capitalist than the politically correct and increasingly socialized US is. Every time I return to the US, which is often, I am sensing that, for me, my home country is a foreign country.

[Muzh]

You can't sit in the western world and skim articles about Ukraine on the internet and then 'knowingly' proclaim fictions such as 'no Russian language' schools exist in UA. Well, Steamer, I reside in that supposed 'bastion of fascism', Lviv, with my Russian speaking fiancee and future stepdaughter. On May 30, I was happy to attend stepdaughter's graduation ceremony at her Russian language secondary school. Surprisingly, all of the graduation speakers spoke in Russian! My fiancee and her daughter are Russian speakers who were forced to flee their home of Luhansk by the invading foreign (mostly native Russian) hordes who swept in, illegally, last summer. These are facts, Steamer, not something I dreamed up browsing Russian propaganda sources, such as RT, from the far away safety of my secondary home in the Rockies. My fiancee tells me there is a Russian language school in every education district in Lviv.

It was gracious of you to apologize to Bo. I credit you for that. I live in the reality of present day Ukraine; it is absolutely nothing like the Russophile propaganda machine paints it to be. Steamer, this is a free country, in some ways more free and capitalist than the politically correct and increasingly socialized US is. Every time I return to the US, which is often, I am sensing that, for me, my home country is a foreign country.

CC3, he is not alone.


Read this a friend sent me.


The New York Times' Orwellian View of Ukraine


http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31565-the-new-york-times-orwellian-view-of-ukraine

[Steamer]

CC3, he is not alone.


Read this a friend sent me.


The New York Times' Orwellian View of Ukraine


http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31565-the-new-york-times-orwellian-view-of-ukraine

Thanks Muzh,
That's the most honest article I've ever read about the coverage of the crisis in Ukraine.

[Photo Guy]

As far as coverage goes, I recommend that people communicate with individuals in Ukraine, and the more the better. There are lots of Facebook posts that I read, posted by all sorts of people there. And there are classic youtube interviews, with people in the breakaway regions, locals everywhere- like the elderly lady who confronts a rebel officer in Shyrokyne. Insightful.

[Boethius]

Thanks Muzh,
That's the most honest article I've ever read about the coverage of the crisis in Ukraine.

Really?  The first statement suggests Euromaidan activists wished to "violently overthrow" Yanukovych.  Was he assassinated?  Were any members of his entourage assassinated?  Nope.  But he, and his entourage, did shoot largely unarmed protesters.

Where was this coup against Russians, as alleged? 

Where is the evidence Putin presented?  I mean real evidence.

How honest can such an assessment be?   It is cr@p.

But, at least now I know why you would believe that Russians are on the verge of extinction in Ukraine, LOL.

[Boethius]

What is happening in Ukraine right now is because Russia, not the U.S., has a strategic interest in controlloing Ukraine's political affairs.  In the past, it did so with economic coercion.  With Euromaidan, that would no longer work.  Hence, military coercion.  The goal is to control Ukraine's domestic and foreign affairs.  Sorry, but the US has no such policy, or strategy, vis a vis Ukraine.

You will continue to see war because it is in Russia's interests, not American interests, for all of the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts to be part of the so called "DNR" and "LNR".  Notwithstanding the fact the populations in these regions do not support the DNR or LNR.  So, continue to support the warmongering Russians and their destruction of Ukraine for their own purposes, cheered on by 80% of their bloodthirsty populace.  Just don't lay the blame for Putin's war on the United States.

[Photo Guy]

Exactly! That is why I created this topic:
The Propaganda War
As a result of propaganda, thousands have died in Ukraine.
And I've seen quite a few youtube interviews, where rebels constantly talk about the Ukrainian Nazis in the West. The 'coup' and other twisted realities....