The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[Muzh]

No, it does seem it would have to be that way.  If Ukraine had strong democratic institutions throughout the country, you could assume this.  It does not.  It is coming out of over 70 years of destruction and totalitarian rule where most anyone with a brain was executed or marginalized.  Its nomenklatura seized the assets of the country and continue to rule with little regard for the population it is supposed to serve.  A federation would exacerbate that.  That is why the Russians want it.  A weak and corrupt Ukraine is to Russia's advantage.


The Euromaidan activists understood why integrating with Europe is their best chance for a normal life.  That is the only solution, at least short term (one generation, at least) for Ukraine.

I would like to nominate Boe to be canonized for her unselfish and saint-like quest of trying to educate the uneducatable.

[southernX]

I would like to nominate Boe to be canonized for her unselfish and saint-like quest of trying to educate the uneducatable.

id second that nomination 
not only here but elswhere ,

SX

[Boethius]

This is what foreign funding has wrought -

Alexei, a 28-year-old historian, was walking down the street in his home town, Donetsk, a couple of weeks ago when armed men from the “Vostok” battalion stopped him, bundled him into their car and drove off.


The incident was the start of a surreal week. Alexei had become the latest Donetsk resident to be abducted by pro-Russian separatists who have controlled the city since April. There followed six days of forced labour. He was brought to a rebel checkpoint in Pervomaiske, a small village northwest of Donetsk, and forced to dig trenches, fill sandbags and, occasionally, peel potatoes. He twice came under heavy shelling by Ukrainian troops, who were stationed close by.


Alexei is fairly forgiving of his captors. “At least they didn’t beat me up,” he says. They also fed him regularly and gave him cigarettes. People he knows who were seized by a different rebel unit – the Russian Orthodox Army – were physically abused and kept in a damp, dark cellar, while he slept in the relative comfort of an abandoned cottage.


Alexei’s story is not an isolated case. A UN report this week said eastern Ukraine was seeing a “total breakdown of law and order”, and accused armed groups of instituting “a reign of fear and terror”. The insurgents, it said, were continuing to abduct, detain, torture and execute people kept as hostages, exercising their power over the population “in raw and brutal ways”.


And the people of Donetsk have a new danger to contend with: intense fighting on the outskirts between rebel units and Ukrainian government troops, who have made tangible gains in the past two weeks. Every night the boom of shelling reverberates around the city. Every morning residents wake to find buildings ruined by bombardments that do not discriminate between combatants and civilians. The death toll is rising.


Donetsk has totally changed since the last time I was here two months ago. Then, it was hard to believe this city of 1m souls was at the centre of one of the worst east-west crises since the cold war. Its beautifully landscaped parks were full of people enjoying the spring sunshine. Outdoor cafés were overflowing: shops and markets were doing a roaring trade. People dismissed the rebels who had seized Donetsk’s regional government building in April as a bunch of clowns.


Not any more. The insurgents now provoke fear, not ridicule. Some of them have exploited the total absence of any police force to steal cars and loot shops. Vigilante justice rules: Alexei’s supposed offence was drinking beer in public.


Tens of thousands have fled the city. The railway station swarms with hundreds of residents queueing for hours to get a ticket out of here. The city centre is devoid of people. Shops are boarded up: many ATMs have run out of cash.  The circus-like atmosphere has also gone. The first wave of rebels – small-time activists and romantics who dreamt for years of union with Mother Russia – has been pushed aside by professionals from Moscow. Igor Strelkov, the rebels’ military commander, and Vladimir Antyufeyev, their security chief, are both Russian citizens. The latter used to be head of internal security in Transnistria, the Russian-backed breakaway region in Moldova.


Meanwhile, the barricades of tyres, barbed wire and sandbags that surrounded the occupied government building have been cleared, and the interior smartened up. Even the lifts work now. But popular disquiet with the rebel regime is widespread, even if still expressed mainly behind closed doors. A common graffito is a portrait of Mr Strelkov with a gun to his head and the words “Just Do It”.


Alexei escaped his captors by spinning an elaborate ruse. They thought, wrongly, that he was a drug addict. So he told them that, if they released him, he would cook them some crystal meth. He was released on condition he brought them the meth – but never returned.
He says about 10 per cent of men abducted by the rebels are persuaded to join the insurgency. That was never going to happen to Alexei. “I was worried they’d find out I was completely against them, that I support a united Ukraine,” he said. He contemplated running away to Ukrainian-controlled territory but feared being taken for a spy.


Since he was set free, the Pervomaiske checkpoint has been destroyed and the area is now controlled by Ukrainian troops. How does he assess the rebels’ chances now? “This whole thing will peter out soon,” Alexei says, “as soon as Russia stops paying them.”

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/ef1f72b8-17cd-11e4-b842-00144feabdc0.html#axzz399spPgbX

[jone]

Here's the graffiti that the article refers to:

[Shadow]

The Euromaidan activists understood why integrating with Europe is their best chance for a normal life.  That is the only solution, at least short term (one generation, at least) for Ukraine.

The problem with this is that it will take more than one generation for Ukraine to have a chance to integrate with the EU. Anything else that was told is a blatant lie.
Even the politicians who were behind Euromaidan will admit that joining the EU will take Ukraine a minimum of 20 to 30 years. For the short term the contract with Russia was sufficient, for the longer term direction towards the EU would always be the way Ukraine wishes to go, and also what the EU is aiming for.

Currently the EU has economic trouble (today a bank in Portugal needs 5 billion Eur to be saved) and a lot of cheap workforce with Polish, Bulgarian and Romanian people migrating to the richer areas. In 20 years they will be at a higher level and new cheap labour is needed. By that time Ukraine would be a good source.

[jone]

Shadow,

For someone who understands the actions of nations, as you do, you certainly only show one side of your knowledge.  All you say is generally true about the transition taking 20 -30 years.  Probably less now that the world is interested in Ukraine's affairs.  BUT, Russia has taken an active role preventing Ukraine from any movement out of the Russian sphere of influence since 1991.  I don't need to remind everyone about that Very Active Role. 

Why should five years from now be any different with Russia?  You don't live in Ukraine.  I have lived there within the last year.  These people have no desire to be a vassal state to Russia any more.    And now, Russia is public enemy number 1. 

[Shadow]

Shadow,

For someone who understands the actions of nations, as you do, you certainly only show one side of your knowledge.  All you say is generally true about the transition taking 20 -30 years.  Probably less now that the world is interested in Ukraine's affairs.  BUT, Russia has taken an active role preventing Ukraine from any movement out of the Russian sphere of influence since 1991.  I don't need to remind everyone about that Very Active Role. 

Why should five years from now be any different with Russia?  You don't live in Ukraine.  I have lived there within the last year.  These people have no desire to be a vassal state to Russia any more.    And now, Russia is public enemy number 1.

The idea of being a vassal state is not what Ukraine could have been. The problem is that Ukrainians have somehow lost the idea of working together with everyone, which they are perfectly capable of.
Russia was, and probably given the chance still is, willing to have close ties with the EU as well, it being a large market for their export as well as a large supplier. In general there would be no reason to deny Ukraine relations.

Why Russia objected to the infamous trade agreement? Because it is linked to demands like scaling down pensions and other government provisions that will hurt those already in a bad situation. Also the current funds are demanding measures that will cause the normal people some hardship, without the civil war that would be already a lot clearer. Which is one more reason why one may think that this civil war is beneficial to the govenrment.

[jone]

The idea of being a vassal state is not what Ukraine could have been. The problem is that Ukrainians have somehow lost the idea of working together with everyone, which they are perfectly capable of.
Russia was, and probably given the chance still is, willing to have close ties with the EU as well, it being a large market for their export as well as a large supplier. In general there would be no reason to deny Ukraine relations.

Why Russia objected to the infamous trade agreement? Because it is linked to demands like scaling down pensions and other government provisions that will hurt those already in a bad situation. Also the current funds are demanding measures that will cause the normal people some hardship, without the civil war that would be already a lot clearer. Which is one more reason why one may think that this civil war is beneficial to the govenrment.

If Russia were that altruistic, and Putin were that altruistic, we wouldn't have the current Russian infiltration.  There were much better ways to accomplish such.  Sorry, Shadow.  Not buyin' it.  Russia interfered because they were afraid Ukrainians would lose their pensions?  Do you realize how silly that sounds?

As for not working together?  Russia has interfered with every election since 1991 in Ukraine.  It was only after their current intervention that many Ukrainians had their wake-up call.   But when I lived in Mykolaiv last summer, I can tell you that already everyone there knew (and it is a Russian speaking town) that the government was corrupt and controlled by Moscow.  How much time have you, personally, spent on the ground talking to Ukrainians in their cities?

I have spent much time in both Russia and Ukraine.  My personal take is that Ukrainians had a much greater sense of belonging to a country than Russians did.  To be Russian (outside of the two federal cities) meant heritage.  To be Ukrainian meant country.   

[Gator]

Russia was, and probably given the chance still is, willing to have close tieswith the EU as well, it being a large market for their export as well as a large supplier.

Close ties?  One important point I have learned over the past 12 years is that Russia is not the West.  Russia may trade with the West, exchanging petrodollars for Western high quality goods, yet at its core the Russian economy is beset with corruption, favoritism, inadequate rule of law, etc.  IMO these would never foster what I think of as "close ties."

Why Russia objected to the infamous trade agreement? Because it is linked to demands like scaling down pensions and other government provisions that will hurt those already in a bad situation.

There was more, much more such as removing subsidies for energy.  These changes are necessary to make the transition to a Western economy.  Paying the piper is painful, and I forsee that it will take a generation.  And I question whether it can happen.    Don't you think this will come to a head this winter when Russia curtails its gas shipments, demanding payment of the huge existing bill for past gas deliveries?

Also the current funds are demanding measures that will cause the normal people some hardship, without the civil war that would be already a lot clearer. Which is one more reason why one may think that this civil war is beneficial to the govenrment.

I don't see how this is beneficial to the government.  Fighting a war is making the country become even deeper in debt. 

 

[Shadow]

If Russia were that altruistic, and Putin were that altruistic, we wouldn't have the current Russian infiltration.  There were much better ways to accomplish such.  Sorry, Shadow.  Not buyin' it.  Russia interfered because they were afraid Ukrainians would lose their pensions?  Do you realize how silly that sounds?

As for not working together?  Russia has interfered with every election since 1991 in Ukraine.  It was only after their current intervention that many Ukrainians had their wake-up call.   But when I lived in Mykolaiv last summer, I can tell you that already everyone there knew (and it is a Russian speaking town) that the government was corrupt and controlled by Moscow.  How much time have you, personally, spent on the ground talking to Ukrainians in their cities?

I have spent much time in both Russia and Ukraine.  My personal take is that Ukrainians had a much greater sense of belonging to a country than Russians did.  To be Russian (outside of the two federal cities) meant heritage.  To be Ukrainian meant country.

I would agree to your sentiments, except that the people are already tired of their own shot for a long time, but refuse to blame it on themselves. After the Orange revolution there was no Russian control, but people are simply forgetting that.
The future will teach that the problem of Ukraine has very little to do with Russia, and a lot with Ukrianians.

[Shadow]

Close ties?  One important point I have learned over the past 12 years is that Russia is not the West.  Russia may trade with the West, exchanging petrodollars for Western high quality goods, yet at its core the Russian economy is beset with corruption, favoritism, inadequate rule of law, etc.  IMO these would never foster what I think of as "close ties."

That makes it pretty close to Western economy, all they need is to shift it to a little higher level so the street level will seem clean.

There was more, much more such as removing subsidies for energy.  These changes are necessary to make the transition to a Western economy.  Paying the piper is painful, and I forsee that it will take a generation.  And I question whether it can happen.    Don't you think this will come to a head this winter when Russia curtails its gas shipments, demanding payment of the huge existing bill for past gas deliveries?

Lowering pensions is not a good method, nor is removing subsidies for energy.
When you wish to build a country, you need to give people a future. If you let the older generation work because they can not afford to retire, the younger generations will be without jobs. Removing subsidies means people will die. Guess that is ok to build the economy.

I don't see how this is beneficial to the government.  Fighting a war is making the country become even deeper in debt. 

 

Not really, as it is largely financed by other countries. And while the country is in state of war and blaming everything on Russia, they will be blind to what happens to their income and bills, it will be just another thing to blame on Russia.

[Boethius]

Why Russia objected to the infamous trade agreement? Because it is linked to demands like scaling down pensions and other government provisions that will hurt those already in a bad situation. Also the current funds are demanding measures that will cause the normal people some hardship, without the civil war that would be already a lot clearer. Which is one more reason why one may think that this civil war is beneficial to the govenrment.

Russia didn't care about the scaling down of pensions or any other provisions in Ukraine.  If it had, it would not have fomented the civil war.


The union Russia proposed was in its state interests, not Ukraine's.  I have no issue with that, states generally act in their own interests, but, notwithstanding the Russian narrative, it is false to suggest there was any altruism toward Ukraine on Russia's part. 

[Boethius]

I would agree to your sentiments, except that the people are already tired of their own shot for a long time, but refuse to blame it on themselves. After the Orange revolution there was no Russian control, but people are simply forgetting that.

Absolutely false.

The future will teach that the problem of Ukraine has very little to do with Russia, and a lot with Ukrianians.

Other than the Russians annexing territory and funding a war on Ukrainian lands, I agree.

[Gator]

The future will teach that the problem of Ukraine has very little to do with Russia, and a lot with Ukrianians.

I agree with you 100%.   

The same responsibility holds for the past - the Ukrainians elected their leaders who over 20 years of independence did little.    Crimea and some Eastern Ukrainians compared the success of Russia with the mistakes of Ukraine and said I want to be part of Russia, not Ukraine.   I say do not give the territory to Russia, but instead allow these disgruntled citizens to emigrate to Russia where Putin will find them jobs, etc.

 

[Gator]

That makes it pretty close to Western economy, all they need is to shift it to a little higher level so the street level will seem clean.

This suggests you are too cynical to allow a rigorous discussion.

Lowering pensions is not a good method, nor is removing subsidies for energy.
When you wish to build a country, you need to give people a future. If you let the older generation work because they can not afford to retire, the younger generations will be without jobs. Removing subsidies means people will die. Guess that is ok to build the economy.

Sheesh; there is also the option of growing the economy.    Subsidies should not be removed 100% on Day One but over an extended period of time.   

Not really, as it is largely financed by other countries. And while the country is in state of war and blaming everything on Russia, they will be blind to what happens to their income and bills, it will be just another thing to blame on Russia.

Are you certain Ukraine's war costs are paid by other countries?

[jone]

I hate to use the analogy, but I see the whole conflict between the two countries as a 'Messy Divorce'.

Ukraine, as the poorer of the two, demonstrates a desire to leave.  While Russia, who is a controlling and somewhat jealous spouse, refuses to let Ukraine go.  To further the analogy, Russia has most of the resources and, as in a messy divorce, is trying to control Ukraine by withholding natural gas, will no longer buy dairy products (they are defective now, for Russians!) and, further, will take any territory that Russian can get its hands on. 

Who was it?   Tom Clancy?  Who wrote:  "The definition of foreign relations is two countries F**ing each other!"

As an aside, Ukrainian ATO troops are now inside the city limits of both Donetsk and Lugansk.  While I believe that they will proceed into Donetsk, I don't think that their foothold is half as secure in Lugansk.  We simply await to see what the Bear next door does.

[lordtiberius]

I hate to use the analogy, but I see the whole conflict between the two countries as a 'Messy Divorce'.

Ukraine, as the poorer of the two, demonstrates a desire to leave.  While Russia, who is a controlling and somewhat jealous spouse, refuses to let Ukraine go.  To further the analogy, Russia has most of the resources and, as in a messy divorce, is trying to control Ukraine by withholding natural gas, will no longer buy dairy products (they are defective now, for Russians!) and, further, will take any territory that Russian can get its hands on. 

Who was it?   Tom Clancy?  Who wrote:  "The definition of foreign relations is two countries F**ing each other!"

As an aside, Ukrainian ATO troops are now inside the city limits of both Donetsk and Lugansk.  While I believe that they will proceed into Donetsk, I don't think that their foothold is half as secure in Lugansk.  We simply await to see what the Bear next door does.

There amount of dead people on both sides makes this statement somewhat incongruent. 

[Boethius]

I agree with you 100%.   

The same responsibility holds for the past - the Ukrainians elected their leaders who over 20 years of independence did little.    Crimea and some Eastern Ukrainians compared the success of Russia with the mistakes of Ukraine and said I want to be part of Russia, not Ukraine.   I say do not give the territory to Russia, but instead allow these disgruntled citizens to emigrate to Russia where Putin will find them jobs, etc.

Except that, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians did not support the separatists who initially demonstrated, nor the terrorists who eventually came from Russia to occupy and fight on their lands.

[calmissile]

Except that, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians did not support the separatists who initially demonstrated, nor the terrorists who eventually came from Russia to occupy and fight on their lands.

True enough Bo, however I really like idea of the disgruntled going to their motherland and leaving the rest of Ukrainian in peace.

[Boethius]

Many of them emigrated from Russia, but many are also native.  However, the core of the terrorists are not locals.  That is the major issue in this conflict.


HRW report today on the war crimes of the terrorists -


http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/ukraine-insurgents-disrupt-medical-services

[Shadow]

Except that, the majority of Eastern Ukrainians did not support the separatists who initially demonstrated, nor the terrorists who eventually came from Russia to occupy and fight on their lands.

Keep drinking the kool aid.

[Shadow]

I agree with you 100%.   

The same responsibility holds for the past - the Ukrainians elected their leaders who over 20 years of independence did little.    Crimea and some Eastern Ukrainians compared the success of Russia with the mistakes of Ukraine and said I want to be part of Russia, not Ukraine.   I say do not give the territory to Russia, but instead allow these disgruntled citizens to emigrate to Russia where Putin will find them jobs, etc.

The ideas of Stalin are sill alive.
Lets remove people from their birth ground because of their opinions.
Well ok... lets agree on this on the condition that every person who likes the US is given a green card and job, no questions asked.

[Shadow]

This suggests you are too cynical to allow a rigorous discussion.

Not cynical but realistic.

Sheesh; there is also the option of growing the economy.    Subsidies should not be removed 100% on Day One but over an extended period of time.   

That is not what the terms of the trade agreement or financing the debts say.
Besides, the recent years have shown that growth is not something you should see as a given.

Are you certain Ukraine's war costs are paid by other countries?

I would hope so. If not the billions given have already landed in the pockets of the current government.

[Boethius]

Keep drinking the kool aid.

My "kool aid" includes the most recent poll, taken after the terrorists seized power.  In the regions occupied, no more than 35% support for separation.  Ever.  I linked it here somewhere.


What have you got?

[Boethius]

http://www.trust.org/item/20140805123419-16biw