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Author Topic: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.  (Read 37993 times)

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Online Faux Pas

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2014, 07:02:09 AM »
In a civil war both sides are prepared to give their lives for victory.
That does not make one side more or less atrocious as the other.

It's not a civil war

Offline Shadow

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2014, 07:39:11 AM »
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2014, 07:46:38 AM »
Are Chechen & Ossetian mercenaries, FSB plants and seconded Russian Army personnel involved in a 'civil war' in eastern UA?

I see it as a war of conquest using proxies.



Offline Shadow

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2014, 08:02:17 AM »
Are Chechen & Ossetian mercenaries, FSB plants and seconded Russian Army personnel involved in a 'civil war' in eastern UA?

I see it as a war of conquest using proxies.
Why would they not get involved if they get paid?
It is funny that people deny that a war where Ukrainians fight Ukrainians in Ukraine is not a civil war.
Guess there were never American tanks in Baghdad.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2014, 08:17:03 AM »
Regular Russian military forces, not mercenaries, have died in Ukraine.  It's a war, but it is not a civil war.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #80 on: September 01, 2014, 08:19:53 AM »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2014, 08:23:22 AM »
Quote
Why would they not get involved if they get paid?


Who do you think is paying them?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Shadow

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #82 on: September 01, 2014, 08:45:05 AM »
The Kool-Aid level is pretty high again.

No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #83 on: September 01, 2014, 09:09:30 AM »
I didn't say I agreed with the numbers in the article.


I'll ask again.  If there are paid mercenaries in Ukraine, who is paying them?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Online Faux Pas

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #84 on: September 01, 2014, 09:23:21 AM »
The Kool-Aid level is pretty high again.

So you're denying Russian arms and military are in Ukraine fighting a war?

Offline BillyB

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #85 on: September 01, 2014, 10:09:42 AM »
So you're denying Russian arms and military are in Ukraine fighting a war?


Putin still denies it and because he says so, there will be a significant amount of people who will believe the same and everything coming out of the West are lies.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Muzh

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #86 on: September 01, 2014, 10:11:32 AM »
In a civil war both sides are prepared to give their lives for victory.
That does not make one side more or less atrocious as the other.


You still sticking to the Kremlin's talking point, are you?


If it walks like an invasion and talks like an invasion, it must be an invasion. DUH!!!
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #87 on: September 01, 2014, 10:14:20 AM »
What many here fail to realize is that Russia will be dominated by Putler until his death.


Good Luck Ruskies with your own Bonaparte.


Edit: Of course, this will appeal to many ultra-right fascists in Europe.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2014, 10:37:40 AM »
LT

imho , IF a force of up to 10000  UN soldiers had been put on the ground as PEACEKEEPERS IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THIS BACK IN MID/LATE FEB , , putin would have not been able to get his proxy war going so easily in the donbass

key thing is it  would have enabled the ukraine gov, NATO, EU & UN , all to say , yes mr vladimir , we hear your concern for russian speakers in the s/east of ukraine , and yes we hear you dont trust the ukraine gov [junta ] however these forces will keep the peace until things settle and become stable after a new election on may 25th

basically it would have removed the oppurtunity for putin to fill the force vaccum in the s/east , while allowing them to say his requests/fears had been addressed and he did not need to put forces into play , & if he did on what pretext could he have done it ??without starting an all out conflict, ?

it simply would  have put peacekeeing facts on the ground first & sidelined putins actions imo

fact is no one in the west was prepared to bite the bullet and take such strong action then ,
the result is what we have now

SX

SX,

I have served on peacekeeping forces and interventionist forces.   Interventionist forces have a freer hand where as peacekeeping forces are bounded by treaty and composed of poorer equipped militaries.  There was a Western peacekeeping force in  Rwanda and they did NOTHING during the genocide.  For all this libertarian who ha about the evils of interventionism - its the way the world works and if we aren't going to be the lead dog, someone else will.  And right now candidate # 2 for that job hates gays,  puts botox in his face, wears high heeled shoes, threatens us with nukes the way no Soviet premier ever did and gets off on jailing and killing those who disagree with him.

If we would have directed the USS George HW Bush to do a port of call in Kherson on February 22nd, this would have been over.  Instead we have no nuts guts strategy leadership in DC by design.  Blame us we voted for the illegitimate child of a President
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:39:27 AM by lordtiberius »

Offline ghost of moon goddess

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2014, 12:30:17 PM »
If you want to keep your expressions convergent, never allow them a single degree of freedom.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2014, 01:29:58 PM »
The West Needs To Be Honest With Ukraine
Thanks for providing that article.  It is thought provoking.   I agree with the part regarding the west insisting on Ukraine surrendering.   As it stands,  we are encouraging them to get slaughtered to forward our own agenda.  It is ridiculous.  I remain convinced that if necessary Russia will put all it has into the fight.  If that is the case, then I believe Ukraine's best option is to capitulate now rather then when they have been annaliated.  We (the USA) shouldn't have encouraged Ukraine to fight a fight that can only result in their total slaughter when there were likely other options.

Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2014, 03:12:32 PM »
Fatertime, from history every Ukrainian knows that they will be slaughtered anyway.

Russian troops slaughtered many Ukrainians who surrendered already which gave clear and loud message that nothing will be different this time either.


People prefer to die in fight than die without fight.


EDIT: Your posts give me impression you believe if Putin gets what he wants from Ukraine it will never effect USA. You are wrong. Putin doesn't want something just from Ukraine, he wants it from not only other ex Soviet Union countries but also from several EU countries. Even if Ukraine dies or surrenders, russian tanks soon will be rolling across another country. Putin wants war, big war. And sooner or later USA will be involved in it. It easier to stop it now than later, casualties will be less now than later.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 03:31:31 PM by missAmeno »

Offline Muzh

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2014, 03:17:51 PM »
Thanks for providing that article.  It is thought provoking.  I agree with the part regarding the west insisting on Ukraine surrendering.   As it stands,  we are encouraging them to get slaughtered to forward our own agenda.  It is ridiculous.  I remain convinced that if necessary Russia will put all it has into the fight.  If that is the case, then I believe Ukraine's best option is to capitulate now rather then when they have been annaliated.  We (the USA) shouldn't have encouraged Ukraine to fight a fight that can only result in their total slaughter when there were likely other options.

Fathertime!


So this is your win-win scenario?


Do you realize that Putler is forcing a WWIII in Europe?


Nah, you can't see past your nose. Never mind.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2014, 03:50:57 PM »
Fatertime, from history every Ukrainian knows that they will be slaughtered anyway.

Russian troops slaughtered many Ukrainians who surrendered already which gave clear and loud message that nothing will be different this time either.


People prefer to die in fight than die without fight.


EDIT: Your posts give me impression you believe if Putin gets what he wants from Ukraine it will never effect USA. You are wrong. Putin doesn't want something just from Ukraine, he wants it from not only other ex Soviet Union countries but also from several EU countries. Even if Ukraine dies or surrenders, russian tanks soon will be rolling across another country. Putin wants war, big war. And sooner or later USA will be involved in it. It easier to stop it now than later, casualties will be less now than later.


During the entire time Russian troops were fighting in Ukraine, fathertime posted here there would be no invasion.


I, too, have told him his lack of knowledge of history was a major disadvantage in his "analyses".  He disagreed.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2014, 03:58:55 PM »

So this is your win-win scenario?


Do you realize that Putler is forcing a WWIII in Europe?


Nah, you can't see past your nose. Never mind.


I’m curious, have you always been unable to understand world events or is it something new?    The article mentioned that if we (the USA) and other allies are not going to back up Ukraine all the way then we (the USA) should insist they surrender.  Don’t blame me for what the author said, I thought it was a reasonable point and agreed with it!  Since your life is practically over anyway, perhaps you think it is a better option to have an all-out war, which is what it will likely take.  As the article stated, it is not the worst thing in the world if parts of Ukraine were to be under Russia’s thumb.  I continue to hold that no nation cares enough about Ukraine like Russia does.  They are likely willing to risk a larger war for it, most of the rest of the world isn't going to go to war (with potentially millions of our kids dead) over Ukraine.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2014, 04:04:21 PM »

During the entire time Russian troops were fighting in Ukraine, fathertime posted here there would be no invasion.



I think you are lying again (as usual).   


To clarify, earlier I believed that Russia was not going to invade (at that time)...and they did not!  I further believed that Ukraine would negotiate with Russia and a potential future invasion would be averted.  As it stands Ukraine may not negotiate with Russia, in which case they could wind up getting invaded.  We (the USA) have helped to embolden Ukraine, and could very well leave them hanging now.


All that said, a question can be asked: Why should Ukraine negotiate with Russia?  The answer should be obvious.   


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2014, 04:05:40 PM »
I continue to hold that no nation cares enough about Ukraine like Russia does. 

I want to laugh at that sentence but instead I am crying.

Russia cared enough to kill millions of Ukrainians. Fatertime, please either read at least a bit of history or stop saying silly things.

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2014, 04:09:52 PM »
Why should Ukraine negotiate with Russia?  The answer should be obvious.   

Which one is it?

a) to don't effect USA budget

b) to save lives of USA soldiers

c) to die quietly

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2014, 04:14:05 PM »
Fatertime, from history every Ukrainian knows that they will be slaughtered anyway.

Russian troops slaughtered many Ukrainians who surrendered already which gave clear and loud message that nothing will be different this time either.


People prefer to die in fight than die without fight.



If indeed it the option was to surrender and be killed or fight and be killed, then people would have to fight.  I don't believe that was the situation though.  If nobody is running to the rescue, negotiating the best deal possible would be best, but hey the Ukrainians get to decide. 



EDIT: Your posts give me impression you believe if Putin gets what he wants from Ukraine it will never effect USA. You are wrong. Putin doesn't want something just from Ukraine, he wants it from not only other ex Soviet Union countries but also from several EU countries. Even if Ukraine dies or surrenders, Russian tanks soon will be rolling across another country. Putin wants war, big war. And sooner or later USA will be involved in it. It easier to stop it now than later, casualties will be less now than later.


You are correct.  I don't believe that Russia will be rolling tanks through the EU if they get what they want from Ukraine.  I don't believe Putin wants a big war.  I believe this though process you are advocating, is just an effort to get us (The USA) involved in another foreign conflict, which will widen it.  If indeed you are right, and Putin is hell bent on a world war, then the planet is in deep trouble.  I'd err on the side of waiting a little longer though rather than assume the worst.  If Russia starts invading EU countries then it would be dealt with at the time, and it won't matter much that Russia has control over parts of a country like Ukraine. 


Fathertime!   
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 04:18:26 PM by fathertime »
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2014, 04:16:53 PM »
I want to laugh at that sentence but instead I am crying.

Russia cared enough to kill millions of Ukrainians
. Fatertime, please either read at least a bit of history or stop saying silly things.


I think you misunderstood my comment.  I don't mean CARE as in having a 'loving affection for'...I mean care as in they REALLY want to have a measure of control over parts of it.  You get my drift now?


Which one is it?

a) to don't effect USA budget

b) to save lives of USA soldiers

c) to die quietly



D) None of the above.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

 

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