Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Starting Out => Topic started by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 04:09:18 PM

Title: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 04:09:18 PM
It works in 1% of A-R marriages when people go for the second or third marriage with kids from their previous relationship.

This is so much B.S.   You don't have a clue how many are successful and neither does anyone else.  1%  I seriously doubt it.
 
There is NO way a woman in her 40's drops everything, goes to the US to marry a guy with a prenup and she will want nothing.

Happens every day whether you like it or not!

 I am not surpised AM (and Ed) applaud you because this is  exactly what they want- cheap or free wife.

Not really!  Cheap or free has nothing to do with it.  Perhaps finding a woman that knows how to love and treat a man as well as having a pleasant personality is more important than finances.  In any case it is not cheap.

More of your hatred toward prenups.  For your info, prenups protect the pre-marital assets of both parties.  Many FSU women have business interests and propery that should be protected for their sake also.  Futhermore, estate planning for the security of the wife can also be included in a pre-nup.
Perhaps you had nothing significant to require a prenup, it does not mean others are in the same boat.

Many AM are happily married to UA women with or without a prenup.  Your disdain toward AM shows in nearly every post.  For some reason you think every FSU woman is stupid to fall in love and immigrate to the US as well as being a victim.  You just cannot fathom the idea that two people can fall in love and have a happy marriage.

Give the sarcasm and negativity a rest for a while.


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 11, 2013, 04:15:36 PM
BS three times.
Not sure but sounds like Tulip is still in Ukraine wearing pink glasses.
 
 calmissile, sweetheart, please remind me what you mean by " a woman knows  how to love and treat the man".
 
Specifically when a woman has her own business outside the US and a daughter in colledge.
(Just to remind you- if you're rude to me, I will be rude back Не заржавеет :D )
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: AnonMod on March 11, 2013, 04:16:48 PM
As has been posted elsewhere, all posters should refrain from advising others how, or what, to post.  If you have an issue, address the post, not the manner in which an idea is presented.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 11, 2013, 04:21:11 PM
Quote
Give the sarcasm and negativity a rest for a while.
It is a free country, besides it is approved by AnonMod now. :D :D :D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 11, 2013, 04:29:24 PM
Quote
More of your hatred toward prenups.  For your info, prenups protect the
pre-marital assets of both parties.  Many FSU women have business interests and
propery that should be protected for their sake also.  Futhermore, estate
planning for the security of the wife can also be included in a pre-nup.

Perhaps you had nothing significant to require a prenup, it does not mean
others are in the same boat.

I disagree with this.  Prenups are there primarily to protect the interests of men marrying FSUW.  You show me an FSUW living in the the FSU who has assets equal in value to those of the man she is marrying, and I'll show you a woman who is not marrying a WM.  Further, prenups have no effect on FSUW in terms of protecting their assets in Russia/Ukraine.  Ukraine is a signatory to recipricol enforcement legislation, but there are typically very strict time limits for enforcement, and it is not an easy process, particularly in a country where a local knows who to bribe and resentment of Westerners does exist.  I don't know if Russia is a signatory to such legislation, but if so, I'd expect the situation to be similar.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 11, 2013, 04:44:14 PM
Boe, I am not very knowledgeable about this, so could you please comment on the part Cal wrote:

"Futhermore, estate planning for the security of the wife can also be included in a pre-nup."

Isn't this something of value for the woman?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 11, 2013, 04:57:20 PM
Tulip, of course the AM members loved what you wrote.

Doll, count me out.

I don't love reading fairy tales written by someone with the mind of a  teenage princess wannabe.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 05:42:13 PM

I disagree with this.  Prenups are there primarily to protect the interests of men marrying FSUW.  You show me an FSUW living in the the FSU who has assets equal in value to those of the man she is marrying, and I'll show you a woman who is not marrying a WM.  Further, prenups have no effect on FSUW in terms of protecting their assets in Russia/Ukraine.  Ukraine is a signatory to recipricol enforcement legislation, but there are typically very strict time limits for enforcement, and it is not an easy process, particularly in a country where a local knows who to bribe and resentment of Westerners does exist.  I don't know if Russia is a signatory to such legislation, but if so, I'd expect the situation to be similar.

I think you missed the point.  A prenup in a California divorce will prevent the husband from claiming premarital assets of the wife regardless of where they are located.

Your comment about a FSU women would  not marry a AM if she had equal or greater assets is false.  We have members on the forum that have already done so.  In fact, in one case I don't think they even have a prenup.  They may not want to share their financial info with you , but there are cases refuting your comment right on the forum

I am not sure I understand your comment about prenups primarily protecting AM.  If fact, for young people with no large assets to protect, a pre-nup is not necessary.   In all of the community property states,  whatever wealth is accumulated during a marriage is split 50/50.  Unless one of the parties wants to waive those rights, there is no reason for a pre-nup.  As others have posted, such a waiver is likely to be overturned anyway.

Furthermore, unless the law has changed recently; premarital property is still off limits to the opposite spouse unless you have co-mingled the assets.  This is perhaps more important than a prenup for someone with substantial premarital assets.

The impression I get from some of you ladies is that most/many AM are going to throw their wives out into the street and penniless.  I don't buy it!   You can take some isolated cases and try to imply that it is the norm, but I have not seen it.  In fact, my Russian neighbor can tell you all kinds of stories where Russian women have taken advantage of AM.  In one case, a Russian doctor immigrated to the US and her husband put her through several years of medical college and she filed for divorce the day she received her US diplomas.   I don't believe that her behavior is the norm of FSU women any more than I believe the norm of AM is to throw out their wives and leave them penniless.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 11, 2013, 05:53:29 PM
I think you missed the point.  A prenup in a California divorce will prevent the husband from claiming premarital assets of the wife regardless of where they are located.


Furthermore, unless the law has changed recently; premarital property is still off limits to the opposite spouse unless you have co-mingled the assets.  This is perhaps more important than a prenup for someone with substantial premarital assets.


You contradict yourself in this post. If premarital property is off limits during divorce (and it is in every state), why would one need a prenup to prevent a spouse "from claiming premarital assets of another spouse regardless of where they are located."?
 Evidently, there is another reason. Since in 99% of cases it is a WM who insists on a pre-nup, and his premarital property is already protected by law in case of divorce, then he needs a prenup for one major reason - to make sure RW gets less during the divorce than a standard divorce proceeding would grant her. Simply, prenups are primarily to protect the ineterests of men marrying FSUW - just like Boe said  ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 11, 2013, 06:01:40 PM
You contradict yourself in this post. If premarital property is off limits during divorce (and it is in every state), why would one need a prenup to prevent a spouse "from claiming premarital assets of another spouse regardless of where they are located."?
 Evidently, there is another reason. Since in 99% of cases it is a WM who insists on a pre-nup, and his premarital property is already protected by law in case of divorce, then he needs a prenup for one major reason - to make sure RW gets less during the divorce than a standard divorce proceeding would grant her. Simply, prenups are primarily to protect the ineterests of men marrying FSUW - just like Boe said  ;D




Why should a woman deserve premarital assets?  It isn't just the premarital assets but the increase of value of those premarital assets during a marriage that needs to be addressed.


A prenup doesn't just favor one person no matter how many times you and Doll try to make it sound like it.  If it does, it can be thrown out.


http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/wife-of-millionaire-wins-unprecedented-case-to-overturn-prenup-agreement-182017682.html (http://shine.yahoo.com/love-sex/wife-of-millionaire-wins-unprecedented-case-to-overturn-prenup-agreement-182017682.html)


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 06:07:36 PM
You contradict yourself in this post. If premarital property is off limits during divorce (and it is in every state), why would one need a prenup to prevent a spouse "from claiming premarital assets of another spouse regardless of where they are located."?
 Evidently, there is another reason. Since in 99% of cases it is a WM who insists on a pre-nup, and his premarital property is already protected by law in case of divorce, then he needs a prenup for one major reason - to make sure RW gets less during the divorce than a standard divorce proceeding would grant her. Simply, prenups are primarily to protect the ineterests of men marrying FSUW - just like Boe said  ;D

As I recall, all states are not community property states.


Simply, prenups are primarily to protect the ineterests of men marrying FSUW
How do you figure this?  In community property states the wealth accumulated during the marriage is divided 50/50.  What more do you think someone deserves?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 06:16:48 PM



Why should a woman deserve premarital assets?  It isn't just the premarital assets but the increase of value of those premarital assets during a marriage that needs to be addressed.

It's been a few years and maybe someone knows the current law, but at the time of my divorce, the value (up or down) of premarital assets did not matter as long as they were kept as 'seperate property' and not comingled.   After all, it would not make sense if the wife had to pony up money to compensate for a reduction in value of a premarital asset owned by the husband.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 11, 2013, 06:20:08 PM
As I recall, all states are not community property states.


Simply, prenups are primarily to protect the ineterests of men marrying FSUW
How do you figure this?  In community property states the wealth accumulated during the marriage is divided 50/50.  What more do you think someone deserves?
I am perfectly fine with the community property divorce laws. If they are that fare and simple, why do men from community property states insist on prenups?
Also, are you saying that premarital assets are subject to division in non-community property states?
Simply, why do men require prenups if divorce laws are fare in the United States?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 11, 2013, 06:22:26 PM
I am perfectly fine with the community property divorce laws. If they are that fare and simple, why do men from community property states insist on prenups?
Also, are you saying that premarital assets are subject to division in non-community property states?
Simply, why do men require prenups if divorce laws are fare in the United States?


Why have any contracts for anything?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 11, 2013, 06:33:58 PM

Why have any contracts for anything?
Because contracts (presumably business) are guided by contract law?
Just like divorces are guided by an extensive existing divorce law? When one party exists on a pre-nup it means that they want to get more in divorce than the existing divorce law would grant them? Why prenup if there are detailed guidilines on how a divorce is handled already?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 11, 2013, 06:35:06 PM
Because contracts (presumably business) are guided by contract law?
Just like divorces are guided by an extensive existing divorce law? When one party exists on a pre-nup it means that they want to get more in divorce than the existing divorce law would grant them? Why prenup if there are detailed guidilines on how a divorce is handled already?

A prenup cannot be one sided.  I don't know why you continue to say it can.  I have just linked to a prenup thrown out for falsehood.

There are also probate laws yet people like to have wills.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 06:38:51 PM
I am perfectly fine with the community property divorce laws. If they are that fare and simple, why do men from community property states insist on prenups?

I cannot answer for other men.  Perhaps it is because sometimes the tear jerking in court results in awards that are not consistent with the law.

Also, are you saying that premarital assets are subject to division in non-community property states?

I don't know about non-community property states anymore.  A few years ago, those states had wildly different laws governing property division in divorce.

Simply, why do men require prenups if divorce laws are fare in the United States?

Because at divorce time the women and her lawyers try to get their hands on every nickle they can find!  At that point the intent of the law means nothing, only greed.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 11, 2013, 06:40:26 PM
Because at divorce time the women and her lawyers try to get their hands on every nickle they can find!  At that point the intent of the law means nothing, only greed.


This isn't just a woman thing.   Plenty of men try to screw over their wives.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 06:41:56 PM
There are also probate laws yet people like to have wills.

Excellent example!

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 11, 2013, 06:51:49 PM
Simply, why do men require prenups if divorce laws are fare in the United States?

Because at divorce time the women and her lawyers try to get their hands on every nickle they can find!  At that point the intent of the law means nothing, only greed.

presumably the woman has the right to get a share of every nickle accumulated in the course of marriage? And will not get more than the divorce law allows?
Do I understand correctly that you do not agree with the law on this and would need a prenup to ensure that she "doesn't get her hands" on a portion of marital assets that would otherwise be divided by existing divorce law?
So, a prenup IS afterall needed to protect a man's interests from the greedy FSUW?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2013, 06:54:44 PM


If premarital property is off limits during divorce (and it is in every state), why would one need a prenup to prevent a spouse "from claiming premarital assets of another spouse regardless of where they are located."?
 


I mentioned this earlier, prenups are good to prevent judges from favoring one side over another. The paper trail is usually good enough to show who owned the property before marriage but when an ugly divorce comes one spouse can twist things to make premarital property become community property.


Let's say you owned a house and rented it. You got married and got a prenup to state the house is solely yours in event of divorce. 3 years later you get divorced and husband says he provided manual labor fixing things on the home and cut the grass there. Community money was used to buy things to fix the home so the premarital home becomes community property. To counter you say the rent money was put in a community bank account so your husband ended up reaping the rewards of his labor.


Maybe the judge, being human, has flaws and is bias against women or maybe he doesn't like foreigners or just the way you look so he makes a ruling that your husband is entitled to a good percentage or even half the equity in your home. A prenup would have helped you make things fair in case you get a judge with biases.


Many people think Paulie has no good intentions with a prenup. If he has a business and a substantial amount of assets and money, it's smart for him to get a  prenup if it's fair according to state guidelines which protects him and his lady from leaving the marriage penniless. Other benefits are it protects their children's future too.


Plenty of men try to screw over their wives.


Most men do prefer to screw on top.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2013, 07:08:37 PM
I never met a more intelligent, kind, loving, tender, funny, sassy, fun-loving woman like her. 



For many men it's refreshing to meet a RW for the first time. They are different than what we're used to. They dress like women, look like women and have a sexy accent....but there are good ones and bad ones.


From what I read so far most people agree that it's important to take care of the woman in FSU culture. Also most people agree your lady has exhibited bad manners and behavior. To ask you to buy her an apartment twice is not a cultural thing but could be anything from bad manners to insincere intentions. Many people here feel it's the latter.


You stated you both love each other. Love doesn't solve all problems. Each time you two spend time together monitor her behavior. A person is at their ugliest during divorce. Don't tolerate ugly now for the sake of love.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 07:36:08 PM
presumably the woman has the right to get a share of every nickle accumulated in the course of marriage? And will not get more than the divorce law allows?

In a community property state, this is the intent.
However, Larry1 gave a great example of what can happen in real life in our courts.  Prior to the case he cited, property division was between married couples getting a divorce, not shack jobs.  In this case a  good lawyer and liberal judges MADE LAW, rather than the legislature (who is supposed to make law).  The result was the 'Palimony' ruling that allowed people shacking up to have the same rights to property division as married couples.  You can imagine the furor it caused.  Many men threw out their girlfriends and many men started the big move to Pre-nups before letting someone move in. 
The reason I bring this up is to supplement BillyB's post.  You cannot depend on our courts to follow the law.  If a judge is biased and does not like the law, he will ignore it or make a ruling that is contrary to the existing law.  It goes uphill to the supreme court where more judges apply their biases.  Unfortunately it does not get kicked back to the legislature where the laws should be modified if our elected officials thought it necessary.  In my opinion judges have way too much power.  It is a flaw in our system IMHO.

I think it was Billy's point that regardless of  what the law says in print, there is no guarantee that judges will be unbiased and follow the written law.

I thought of another example for you in favor of prenups.  Just like the unmarried couples prior to 'Palimony', the law can change during a long term marriage. 
What if during a long term marriage, the law changed to favor one party or the other? You got married under one set of laws and all of a sudden the law changed.  As I recall pre-nups in California are considered Contract Law, not marriage law.  This might have changed, but it is what people did that wanted a stable set of rules throughout the marriage or relationship.   I hope this answers some of your concerns.

Do I understand correctly that you do not agree with the law on this and would need a prenup to ensure that she "doesn't get her hands" on a portion of marital assets that would otherwise be divided by existing divorce law?

No, of course not.  The portion of marital assets that would otherwise be divided by existing divorce law? are already covered in the community property states.  Protecting oneself from her getting 'seperate, pre-marital' property is the main reason for pre-nups.  It identifies the seperate property and makes it more clear what is exempt from community property.


So, a prenup IS afterall needed to protect a man's interests from the greedy FSUW?

It may be important for either party to prevent pre-marital assets from being claimed by the other party.  It works equally for both sexes.        ;D

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 11, 2013, 08:05:07 PM


So are you getting a prenup?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 11, 2013, 08:11:03 PM
Doll, count me out.

I don't love reading fairy tales written by someone with the mind of a  teenage princess wannabe.
Ok, you're out  :D
Women like Tulip basically tell you (or men)what you (men) want to hear. She probably does believe in it somehow but wait till she faces the reality.
You guys go and read RW forum.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 11, 2013, 08:18:46 PM
Ok, you're out  :D
Women like Tulip basically tell you (or men)what you (men) want to hear. She probably does believe in it somehow but wait till she faces the reality.
You guys go and read RW forum.

Please be reminded that promoting other forums is against the rules.  Several of us have already been hammared for this is the past.      ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 11, 2013, 08:22:34 PM
Please be reminded that promoting other forums is against the rules.  Several of us have already been hammared for this is the past.      ;D
Oh, please! No threats.  Many members do read it AND refer.
I didn't give any links. Even if I did. This forum was refered to by AM members more than once.
 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 11, 2013, 09:14:06 PM
Boe, I am not very knowledgeable about this, so could you please comment on the part Cal wrote:

"Futhermore, estate planning for the security of the wife can also be included in a pre-nup."

Isn't this something of value for the woman?


This would depend on the jurisdiction, but presumably, the prenup would spell out what types of assets the spouse is entitled to if they are married at the time of death.  Of course, a Will or spousal trust has to have similar types of provisions, or you are into litigation, with issues of which document prevails, though I'd argue the prenup does, as it is a contractual obligation.  Still, that would depend on the law of the jurisdiction.  Where I live, the courts generally would find that the prenup prevails.


Where I live, prenups do have restrictions, and have less "enforceability" the longer a couple is married.  Matrimonial lawyers here build in "escalation clauses" - you're entitled to X after five years together, Y after 8 years together, etc. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 11, 2013, 09:39:15 PM
I think you missed the point.  A prenup in a California divorce will prevent the husband from claiming premarital assets of the wife regardless of where they are located.


No, I didn't miss the point.  Even without a prenup, a California husband's ability to enforce a matrimonial property order in the FSU is fairly remote.

Quote
Your comment about a FSU women would  not marry a AM if she had equal or greater assets is false.  We have members on the forum that have already done so.  In fact, in one case I don't think they even have a prenup.  They may not want to share their financial info with you , but there are cases refuting your comment right on the forum


I did not post they would not marry a Western man.   Read more carefully.  Most such women are not seeking WM.  It is unusual.  There are no cases of FSUW who post on this forum who have more assets than the men they marry.  There are a few who have significant assets by FSU standards, but not anywhere near what her partner has accumulated.  In fact, if I were an FSUW looking for a man, I would not be interested in a 40 something man who had not accumulated assets.  It would indicate to me he is not a responsible individual.

Quote
I am not sure I understand your comment about prenups primarily protecting AM.  If fact, for young people with no large assets to protect, a pre-nup is not necessary.   In all of the community property states,  whatever wealth is accumulated during a marriage is split 50/50.  Unless one of the parties wants to waive those rights, there is no reason for a pre-nup.  As others have posted, such a waiver is likely to be overturned anyway.


Were that true, men would not be asking for them.  Prenups generally protect assets acquired before the marriage, and any source of income before the marriage as well, even if that source continues after marriage, with no 50/50 split.    Barry Bonds, for example, was able to protect all of his post matrimonial baseball income because his spouse signed a contract in 1988, when he was earning a little over $100,000 annually. 

Quote
Furthermore, unless the law has changed recently; premarital property is still off limits to the opposite spouse unless you have co-mingled the assets.  This is perhaps more important than a prenup for someone with substantial premarital assets.


True in practice in most jurisdictions with communal property, including where I live.  However, the issue becomes, what has been commingled.  Couples generally do not keep records of every dollar they spend.  So, a decade, or even half a decade down the road, she claims she improved his properties by cleaning/painting them, she bought supplies, etc., or she bought all the groceries and gas while he invested in his portfolio, while he claims they split the costs 50/50, and, you are in litigation. 

Quote
The impression I get from some of you ladies is that most/many AM are going to throw their wives out into the street and penniless.  I don't buy it!   You can take some isolated cases and try to imply that it is the norm, but I have not seen it.  In fact, my Russian neighbor can tell you all kinds of stories where Russian women have taken advantage of AM.  In one case, a Russian doctor immigrated to the US and her husband put her through several years of medical college and she filed for divorce the day she received her US diplomas.   I don't believe that her behavior is the norm of FSU women any more than I believe the norm of AM is to throw out their wives and leave them penniless.


Legally, an AM has an obligation to support her as her immigration sponsor, does he not?


We know of cases on this very forum where an FSUW was left scrambling, working two jobs to make ends meet.  There are many other examples on the FSUW women forums of women holding down two jobs, usually as a sales clerk, to make it on her own.  That is why I, and the FSUW here, applaud GQBlues.  He ensured that if something happens to him, or in the unlikely event they were to split, she would have the same lifestyle she had when she was with him.


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 11, 2013, 09:43:47 PM
Quote
There are also probate laws yet people like to have wills.


In most jurisdictions, dying intestate is much more of a hassle than dying with a Will.  Furthermore, people often wish their property to go to someone other than the individuals who would inherit under intestacy legislation.


Finally, anyone with significant assets should have a Will because tax can be minimized with good estate planning.  Intestacy legislation doesn't cover tax planning, and it generally can't be done after the fact.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 11, 2013, 10:09:38 PM
Tulip gave her perspective as a UW, and that should be respected. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on March 11, 2013, 10:57:52 PM
I had this discussion with two different attorneys that work for me.  I don't consider myself any different from any other WM.  But unlike most other WM, I have a business to protect that involves investors and stock.  In a confrontational divorce, it is very possible that I would loose control of my own company. 

The recommendation, should I get married, is that I have an agreement with my wife that allows me to maintain control of the company that I have built, while at the same time rewarding her for her agreement to this.  I won't go into all of the specifics, but there are many times where dotting your i's and crossing your t's ahead of time is important, not only for my continuity, but for the consideration of those other investors who need to know, with confidence, that I will still be at the helm.

I also don't need to divulge trust information, but suffice it to say part of my eventual estate is held in trust for unnamed beneficiaries.  That, too would be excluded from any marriage.

I don't think much about money type issues.  But I have good people that do for me on my behalf.  Much of the discussion that I have heard is from people that have not accumulated assets, and, therefore, cannot picture the way the law disseminates those assets. 

I do agree with Bothius in that dying intestate is a foolish thing.  It is very easy to declare a will, even by using an online application and those who have not done so are playing with fire.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 11, 2013, 11:58:50 PM
Quote
Much of the discussion that I have heard is from people that have not accumulated assets, and, therefore, cannot picture the way the law disseminates those assets. 

I am fully aware of how the law disseminates assets on marital breakdowns.  That isn't my point.  My point is about trust, and, as I posted, I have never experienced a case where a client with a prenup did not, eventually, divorce. 

As a lawyer, of course I would advise all clients marrying to get prenups, just as I advise them to have shareholder agreements with business partners, partnership agreements, joint venture agreements, etc.  However, that is a separate issue from the "why".  I wouldn't marry someone who I did not trust 100% in all circumstances, good or bad.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: newjason on March 12, 2013, 02:15:56 AM
This whole thing reeks of evil to the very core.

If modern marriage has been reduced to this petty thought process of " what do I get out of it ? "
and Divorce has the effect of resolving the agreement of " I did not get what I thought I would , or what I wanted "
Then a pre nump is the equal of admitting you don't know the person well enough to become married to them, and more over , you don't trust them with your "stuff", and that "stuff " is more important to protect than anything else.
This whole mindset of the mass acquisition of money or material things is just a face painted another color over greed and envy.
It's just stuff.
It's only money.

Modern Marriages that need these long agreements and disclaimers seem to not be about happiness and love, but about something very far from those ideals.

IMO

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 12, 2013, 04:44:30 AM
Thank you everyone.  I have my answers.  You have all been great.  I will be back here in a few days to describe how I arrived at my resolution.  All the best.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Fashionista on March 12, 2013, 05:14:50 AM
Seriously, normal healthy relationships aren't that complicated. They don't require opinions of the crowd either. If you need advice, you don't go to people you don't know, you ask the person you are in a relationship with.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 12, 2013, 06:18:31 AM
Seriously, normal healthy relationships aren't that complicated. They don't require opinions of the crowd either. If you need advice, you don't go to people you don't know, you ask the person you are in a relationship with.

so true.

well put, fashionista!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 12, 2013, 06:24:40 AM
...You have a good head on your shoulders...

seriously?

...or is this like little league soccer (everyone gets a trophy!!)?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 12, 2013, 07:04:37 AM
Seriously, normal healthy relationships aren't that complicated. They don't require opinions of the crowd either. If you need advice, you don't go to people you don't know, you ask the person you are in a relationship with.

I disagree with parts of this.

Some of best advice comes from independent third parties who have no emotional stake in the situation.

This is why specialists in relationship counseling exist.

Even untrained persons, such as we here, can give insights that might not have been thought of by the two parties.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 12, 2013, 07:11:19 AM
We know of cases on this very forum where an FSUW was left scrambling, working two jobs to make ends meet.  There are many other examples on the FSUW women forums of women holding down two jobs, usually as a sales clerk, to make it on her own.  That is why I, and the FSUW here, applaud GQBlues.  He ensured that if something happens to him, or in the unlikely event they were to split, she would have the same lifestyle she had when she was with him.

whenever a husband/wife don't have kids, the doomsday scenarios are always a lot less painful and complicated.

or is that also part of your point?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Tulip on March 12, 2013, 07:18:00 AM
I am not surpised AM (and Ed) applaud you because this is  exactly what they want- cheap or free wife.

Cheep and free wife? No foreign wife is cheap and free. I just believe that every man ( male ) wants to be beloved how he is and what person he is, not depending on his wallet's size.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 12, 2013, 07:19:48 AM
i'll let her speak for herself, but my take on fashionista's thought was that if a guy has to ask if she's the girlfriend... or just the girlfriend experience, then the guy deep down probably already knows the answer.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Tulip on March 12, 2013, 07:19:59 AM
Tulip, of course the AM members loved what you wrote. Love, pure love, purified love and nothing else.
It works in 1% of A-R marriages when people go for the second or third marriage with kids from their previous relationship.
There is NO way a woman in her 40's drops everything, goes to the US to marry a guy with a prenup and she will want nothing.
 I am not surpised AM (and Ed) applaud you because this is  exactly what they want- cheap or free wife.
 AM protect themselves and their kids with prenups and a RW only can "love" and be thankful (for whatever you want to be thankful))).
 Флаг тебе в руки и барабан на шею :D

I can't understand why there is so much poison and spite in your words. The only one reason, I believe, is that you are not happy. Your lot ( destiny ) - to be dumb ( wordless ) in your family as you seem to be "nothing" there, like "zero" for your husband and you are off your husband's mind and his attention. You seem not to have got what had been expected by you. And you have neither love from your "best-half", nor even simple things, I believe. The only thing you can be pleased with and can allow yourself is to spread all your poison and negative emotions on other persons here, believing that no feelings exist and there is only a will of benefits. I am sure if some day your husband loses his money ( his job etc ) you will disappear out of his life and go for looking for "someone next", who is able to give you more. I have never been saying what others want to hear. I got used to saying what I think about. As for a drum and a flag.. I could advise you to put it into a place, that had been advised by Melanie Griffith in "Working Girl" but I won't do it. Just take that flag and that drum and lead the column of such unhappy and willing-a-lot-but-getting-nothing persons like you  :welcome:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Tulip on March 12, 2013, 07:22:09 AM
Doll, count me out.

I don't love reading fairy tales written by someone with the mind of a  teenage princess wannabe.

In your opinion to be able to love and to place love before other material things means to be someone with the mind of a  teenage princess. Maybe you simply need no love. As for fairy-tales, I could also tell another one. It is about some King, who believed him to be very smart and perfect, and his too young wife. At the end of that fairy-tale the king is spending all his time being left ( thrown ) alone and thinking what a donkey he had been. This tale may even be named "The Donkey King". I have to think about offering this scenario to Walt Disney. And when it is filmed, the sign "It is based on true story" may be placed there :))
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Tulip on March 12, 2013, 07:25:58 AM
...You guys go and read RW forum...

As for Russian women's forums, I have read a lot of topics there, on all kinds of forums. Yes, there is many interesting and useful topics, but the main idea of lots of those topics is how to get more money from their foreign fiances.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 07:26:55 AM

Still believing in that "pleasant personality" fantasy, calmissile? 



Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Tulip on March 12, 2013, 07:30:34 AM
Tulip, welcome to the forum.  You are refreshing voice here.  If you have not already done so, you might want to go to the Get Acquaianted thread and tell us a little about yourself.  If you are single, I am sure you will have many suitors from here.      ;D


The wisdom in  your posts and your pleasant personality are very welcome.

Calmissile, thank you for welcoming me here and your good words :) No, I am not single. I have a beloved man and he is the best one for me :)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 12, 2013, 07:34:04 AM
Cheep and free wife? No foreign wife is cheap and free. I just believe that every man ( male ) wants to be beloved how he is and what person he is, not depending on his wallet's size.

i agree 100%.  keep 'em coming, syestra!

but unfortunately there are some (foolish) men who don't realize that a marriage with a rw will generally incur a lot more expenses than marriage to an aw.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 07:34:26 AM
This whole thing reeks of evil to the very core.

If modern marriage has been reduced to this petty thought process of " what do I get out of it ? "
and Divorce has the effect of resolving the agreement of " I did not get what I thought I would , or what I wanted "
Then a pre nump is the equal of admitting you don't know the person well enough to become married to them, and more over , you don't trust them with your "stuff", and that "stuff " is more important to protect than anything else.
This whole mindset of the mass acquisition of money or material things is just a face painted another color over greed and envy.
It's just stuff.
It's only money.

Modern Marriages that need these long agreements and disclaimers seem to not be about happiness and love, but about something very far from those ideals.

IMO




Best post on the subject, IMHO.




Traveler, no, that was not part of my point.  My point was about protecting "what's mine". 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 12, 2013, 07:45:13 AM
I disagree with parts of this.

Some of best advice comes from independent third parties who have no emotional stake in the situation.

This is why specialists in relationship counseling exist.

Even untrained persons, such as we here, can give insights that might not have been thought of by the two parties.

Thank you ML for your thoughts.  I needed a "reality check."  I can't talk with friends and family because their opinion is biased.  So, I found it here. 

I am not saying I found my entire solution here, but everyone's thoughts and comments have played a role in my getting a better understanding. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 12, 2013, 07:48:39 AM
Cheep and free wife? No foreign wife is cheap and free. I just believe that every man ( male ) wants to be beloved how he is and what person he is, not depending on his wallet's size.

Tulip, you are correct: We all want to be loved and that love should not be dependent on my wallet.  Financial security should be between two people and they should plan that together. 

Someone's love for me should not be based on how much money I can give them and how much security I will provide.  That is not how my grandparents married and lived. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 12, 2013, 08:01:43 AM
For personal reasons i have had to study the problem of mariage and divorce and make a choice about the contract i needed to choice.

It is presupposed that there are an important difference in earning and asset between the man and the woman (in favor of the man).

What is fair first ? Is it when someone improves his wealth ?
What is unfair first ? Someone who has lost something compare to what he had or what he should have got ?
What do you mean by loose ?
What is equality, which equality ? Are people equals ?

1/The standard marriage  in my country is all in common from the date in marriage and previous assets and inheritance separated. The problem with this one is that gift or inheritance are not really protected, if the money had come through the common bank account, the judge will consider that (depending of his mood) it is common (so now some family are very reluctant to give any money to theirs childrens, to avoid his dissolution trough the community). The second problem is that those assets are creating an overvalue in two ways : the judge will take account of this in the compensatory allowance and if it is the case any added value (difference between the divorce price and the mariage price) need to be shared. But often the added value has nothing to do with wifey.

2/The all shared community means what it means : you share all by two the day of the mariage. You need to go to a notarius prior the town hall.
In fact any standard marriage, and especially for the youngest,  become a all shared community minus inheritance or gifts (but we have seen that in the reality, that inheritance and gifts money are not guaranted and can be dissolved in the community)

3/ the separated mariage. You need to go to a notarius prior the town hall.
 
As some has highlighted here, the law means nothing. The best is to study the case-laws. It is what i have done throug dozens common divorce judgement and one hundred who had been courted in the high court (about the compensatory allowance).

    75% of people who are asking divorce are women.
    Wifes have the custody of childrens in 75 %, 17 % both and 6% of men get it.

              Wifes get the alimony for children (proportional to men's income)
              Eventually the woman gets a personal pension till the divorce is pronounced
            The judge order, in case the couple have bought a house/appartment (many times), to the man to leave it without compensation. The equivallent in rental will be deducted from the compasatory allowance later. As a result the man instantly has to pay : all pensions, his own rent, 
           After divorce wifey adds alimony to her income but deduct childrens from her taxes, which is always reduce her taxes, even in the worst case, and can help her to pay no taxes on income.
           She gets specials helps for childrens from governement.
           She gets specials helps from governement provided that her total income is not too high.
            She gets miscealleneous helps, depending of her income and many others things.  The motto is that govnerment helps as soon as you close to the low middle class or poor one.
            For those who are believe that in case of shared custody the man will have nothing to pay, you are wrong. He will pay between half and 2/3 of what he should pay in case of a classical women custody.

The guy, if he has an income above the median wage gets nothing.
            His taxes will explode after the divorce and generally as wifey is in the house he continues to pay the mortgage, and the pensions, and a new rent, and with this amazing comptability he must find the money to pay the future compensatory alimony to solve his divorce. If he has no cash i let you understand how it is easy to borrow the compensatory alimony, knowing how sensitive to the cold are banks, especially after 6 years of crisis. For all common assets he must have to pay 2.5%, and the price for the notarius, and also the money for the attorney. He is rich, so he is supposed to pay, and attorneys will push women to get the maximum. Add also that divorce judges are mainly women, in more than 80 % and they don't want to give up the compensatory alimony, which is the ultimate weapon of the judge.


"prestation compensatoire de niveau de vie" in french (compensatoy alimony) means litteraly : an alimony to compensate the difference in style of life the wife before and after the divorce.
              The policy applied by judges is that wifes have made some sacrifices, or if a disparity was existing before it was a couple decision.
              Generally it is false. Women would have never earn more than what they do today. When some have not been capable to work it has been for economical or personals reasons.
            It  is true that some men don't want to see theirs wifes working. But at the end it makes no difference if he agrees or not : nothing will be deduced from the compensatory allowance.
            Again the system is biased : the marriage contract is empty. All depends of simple parameters : number of childrens, length of mariage, total income of each during the length of mariage, perspectives of pension for each in the future.
            Where is it mentionned who will work, how many children thay want ? BLANK. But if wifey wants three and hubby one, after the divorce hubby will pay for three. Not the same, but for judge a simple calculation sheet will be used and the amount calculated in accordance with the number.
            Only 2% of women are paying an compensatory alimony but the the spread in earning between sex, all parameters corrected, is 9 % now. Curious no ?
       

             Today it is simple : a couple with a 10 to 2 difference (one is making 10000 and one is making 2000) when they divorce after 20 years of mariage at 45. The man who had bring 83 % of the wealth (both creating for 600000 of real asset) will get half and because of the compensatory alimony (110000 here), he will get only 32 %. The woman is here multiplying by 5 her contribution.

            I have said that the policy applied for ANY couple is that the woman had made some sacrifices.
            So the logical question is :  Is a RW making some sacrifices ? OF COURSE more than any western women. But is the reward the same ?  is the only compensatory alimony enough rewarding or protecting ?
           In a country where the GDP per year is along four digits more than five the reward is really higher than any life she would have had.  Is the wealth of the FSU lady has increased, significantly or not ? The answer depends of how long is the mariage because the compensatory alimony depends on the length.  She can choice to return to FSU with an amount which will make her considered as well off . She can stay here with all the inconvenients and advantage of my country plus this compensatory alimony AND all we have detailled previously.
         
           Here in my country the issues are not to discuss if you have to get married and halve all. It is clear that the standard marriage and the all common marriage are so disfavorable to men who earn more than average people (which should be the case of any marriage between western and FSU women for obvious reasons) that many don't even want to sign it, and especially those who have suffered of a previous divorce.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 12, 2013, 08:07:55 AM
I am perfectly fine with the community property divorce laws. If they are that fare and simple, why do men from community property states insist on prenups?
Also, are you saying that premarital assets are subject to division in non-community property states?
Simply, why do men require prenups if divorce laws are fare in the United States?
It is not divorce laws, it is court and judge who are not considered as fair for some who have assets or business. The question is why so many guys want today to make prenupt? Because the law (the judges) don't protect them.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 08:18:06 AM
It is not divorce laws, it is court and judge who are not considered as fair for some who have assets or business. The question is why so many guys want today to make prenupt? Because the law (the judges) don't protect them.


That is untrue.  Up to the 1990's, women's standards of living decreased dramatically after divorce, while men's increased by about, on average 15%.   Since that time, the standards have leveled off.  It is not because of "unfair" courts, but because women are earning more in the workforce.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 12, 2013, 08:24:52 AM
i'll let her speak for herself, but my take on fashionista's thought was that if a guy has to ask if she's the girlfriend... or just the girlfriend experience, then the guy deep down probably already knows the answer.

Not always.  I actually like to learn from others and appreciate and respect their opinion.   Sometimes I NEED a 'reality' check. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 12, 2013, 08:30:49 AM
i agree 100%.  keep 'em coming, syestra!

but unfortunately there are some (foolish) men who don't realize that a marriage with a rw will generally incur a lot more expenses than marriage to an aw.

This is true and something I learned right here. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Brillynt on March 12, 2013, 08:34:40 AM
Modern Marriages that need these long agreements and disclaimers seem to not be about happiness and love, but about something very far from those ideals.

+1
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Larry1 on March 12, 2013, 08:48:12 AM
Still believing in that "pleasant personality" fantasy, calmissile?

Are you suggesting that Tulip lacks a pleasant personality because she responds back when someone takes a shot at her?  Maybe Jesus Christ turned his other cheek but I wouldn't suggest that here. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 08:51:58 AM
A "pleasant person" doesn't take a shot at another person's marriage.  Furthermore, Doll's post was not vitriolic.



Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 12, 2013, 08:57:41 AM
presumably the woman has the right to get a share of every nickle accumulated in the course of marriage? And will not get more than the divorce law allows?
Do I understand correctly that you do not agree with the law on this and would need a prenup to ensure that she "doesn't get her hands" on a portion of marital assets that would otherwise be divided by existing divorce law?
So, a prenup IS afterall needed to protect a man's interests from the greedy FSUW?
Why would get half of marital assets which don't belong to you ?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 12, 2013, 08:58:35 AM

That is untrue.  Up to the 1990's, women's standards of living decreased dramatically after divorce, while men's increased by about, on average 15%.   Since that time, the standards have leveled off.  It is not because of "unfair" courts, but because women are earning more in the workforce.

I was  talking in my post about men who date FSU women, they are not average. They have at least a well off income in general.

Now we are in 2013, a lot of things have changed.
And no, the laws don't protect them with the standard mariage, so men have to choice the separated one (prenup).


You really read what you write ?
"while men's increased by about, on average 15%".
You mean 40 years after the divorce ? A lot are dead.  After the divorce all men (except probably the 2% who get an compensatory alimony) suffers from a decrease in sandards of live.

Women's standard have dramatically decreased ? In accordance to the family earning they had before ?
YES OF COURSE i hope so, you don't believe perhaps that men are going to pay the entire difference to give her the exact earning the couple was having before ?

If all husbands just after divorce was killing themselves and burned the exact part of the money they have bring during the marriage (wich means no assets, no alimony, no compensatory alimony), tell me how will become the standards life of those divorced women ?

And what the better wages of the women workforce has to do in your post ? If it was really true (but unfortunately women don't earn exactly the same as men : 9% of difference), so why women asks divorce in 75% of cases, why men have to pay a compensatory alimony ?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 09:02:50 AM
Quote
I was  talking in my post about men who date FSU women, they are not average. They have at least a well off income in general.


But it still goes to the point of loving their money more than their women, of entering into a relationship without the requisite trust to have a true partnership.


As has been posted, in most North American jurisdictions, assets acquired during marriage are split 50/50 and those acquired before marriage are exempt, although the increase in value of those assets is split.  There are a few jurisdictions where all assets are split 50/50, but that is not the norm.



Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Belvis on March 12, 2013, 09:03:17 AM
I have never been saying what others want to hear. I got used to saying what I think about.
Tulip, problem is that your words or thoughts are so typical for a teenager girl with no real experience in life. Well, they are shown in movies like that. :)  I believe you're saying what you're thinking here and right now. I believe the love exists though in different shape from your conception. I'm afraid you have no idea about how ephemeral feeling of love can be in many cases.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 09:07:02 AM
Tulip, problem is that your words or thoughts are so typical for a teenager girl with no real experience in life. Well, they are shown in movies like that. :)  I believe you're saying what you're thinking here and right now. I believe the love exists though in different shape from your conception. I'm afraid you have no idea about how ephemeral feeling of love can be in many cases.


How is suggesting to love and be loved the words of a teenaged girl?   Ephemeral feelings are usually an inch deep and a mile wide.  That may be the world of teens, but true love of any depth is usually more than just a feeling.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Belvis on March 12, 2013, 09:09:33 AM
That may be the world of teens, but true love of any depth is usually more than just a feeling.
And not always a fun  :)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 12, 2013, 09:27:14 AM
Why would get half of marital assets which don't belong to you ?
Because all the assets accumulated in the course of marriage belong to both spouses and should be divided 50/50
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 12, 2013, 09:33:24 AM
Those in disfavor of prenups seem to be taking a simple view.   If  family law were that simple, real estate attorneys would handle divorces.
 
I wouldn't marry someone who I did not trust 100% in all circumstances, good or bad.

Is there anyone who marries without trusting the other person?  I think not.  Yet, 50% of marriages end in divorce.  Why?  Easy answer - things change.  That is reason enough for a prenup.
 
And for business owners, a prenup is important for the continued health if not survival of the business, especially if the business is owned with partners or one's family. 
 
And there is another reason for a prenup.    Some attorneys with nicknames such as "Mad Dog" will work the proceedings and play the client's emotions, creating huge legal bills and prolonging the divorce.  And the final award will probably be about the same as if the divorce were mediated (except the pie is smaller due to huge legal costs). 
 
It is best to decide how to divide the pie when  trusting each other rather than when feeling the illwill if not anger and resentment of a contested divorce.  If one person feels the prenup division is not fair, then do not sign the prenup and walk away.  One can not walk away from a divorce.  One is consumed.  And the effect of an ugly divorce on the children is adverse and drastic.
 
I mentioned children.  Child support is determined by the court using guidelines, not the prenup.  Bottom line - wealthy pay more  than average folks for child support, and they should feel proud doing it.
 
A prenup must be fair and reasonable; otherwise it may be overturned by the judge.   A fair and reasonable prenup may provide more payment in a short marriage than a contested divorce.   For example, permanent periodic alimony in Florida  is likely in all marriages of seventeen years or more and even in some marriages of between seven and seventeen years (if there is "clear and convincing" evidence supporting it).  A prenup would cover marriages lasting less than seven years.
 
And over the long term?    Assuming a long term marriage, the court will require a greater earning spouse to provide monthly support to the lesser earning spouse.  Considering the age disparity of many AM-RW marriages, the greater earning spouse  could be the RW.  And an unhealthy AM would perhaps need more money.  So a prenup can protect RW committed to a long term marriage whose earnings could surpass her husband's, especially if he is retired or invalid.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 12, 2013, 09:34:02 AM
Because all the assets accumulated in the course of marriage belong to both spouses and should be divided 50/50

Would you go 49/51 if I throw in the dog and our sex tapes also?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 12, 2013, 09:38:59 AM

But it still goes to the point of loving their money more than their women, of entering into a relationship without the requisite trust to have a true partnership.


As has been posted, in most North American jurisdictions, assets acquired during marriage are split 50/50 and those acquired before marriage are exempt, although the increase in value of those assets is split.  There are a few jurisdictions where all assets are split 50/50, but that is not the norm.
The problem of trust and fairness is two totally differents things and should be strictly evaluated apart. It shouldn't be linked at any time.

You cannot mix in your work of judge or lawyer trust/emotions and fairness.
You cannot welcome a woman saying : "i have so love him that i want nothing from him, nothing". You would know more about her life and her to be protected, at minima, because you are a professional and you want to assess where she will be in the channel/the range of the fairness.

So a man need to do the same, have i improved her life, for tomorrow, and what will be mine ?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 12, 2013, 09:47:57 AM
You cannot welcome a woman saying : "i have so love him that i want nothing from him, nothing".

Man:  Honey would you still love me if I lost all my money?

Woman:  Yes, of course.  And I would miss you also.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 09:48:28 AM
True.  As I've posted before, my favourite line in my favourite movie is "When you love them, they drive you crazy because they know they can."
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 12, 2013, 09:49:44 AM

But it still goes to the point of loving their money more than their women, of entering into a relationship without the requisite trust to have a true partnership.


As has been posted, in most North American jurisdictions, assets acquired during marriage are split 50/50 and those acquired before marriage are exempt, although the increase in value of those assets is split.  There are a few jurisdictions where all assets are split 50/50, but that is not the norm.

I think you might be mistaken on this.  Seperate property is seperate property.  The value change is not relevant because it is not part of the marital estate and not even considered.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 09:52:30 AM
In all Canadian jurisdictions, without a prenup, an increase in value in property acquired before marriage is divided 50/50.  The value going into the marriage is exempt.  In most Canadian jurisdictions, this applies to common law marriages as well.   I believe the split is the case in some US jurisdictions as well, though laws vary from state to state.



Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 12, 2013, 09:54:00 AM
Man:  Honey would you still love me if I lost all my money?

Woman:  Yes, of course.  And I would miss you also.
You are playful today ML.  :P
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 09:54:12 AM
The problem of trust and fairness is two totally differents things and should be strictly evaluated apart. It shouldn't be linked at any time.

You cannot mix in your work of judge or lawyer trust/emotions and fairness.
You cannot welcome a woman saying : "i have so love him that i want nothing from him, nothing". You would know more about her life and her to be protected, at minima, because you are a professional and you want to assess where she will be in the channel/the range of the fairness.

So a man need to do the same, have i improved her life, for tomorrow, and what will be mine ?


It is all intertwined.  As both jason and Faux Pas posted, it is all just stuff.   I could not fathom protecting my "stuff" from someone to whom I have entrusted my soul.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 12, 2013, 09:56:01 AM
 
i'll let her speak for herself, but my take on fashionista's thought was that if a guy has to ask if she's the girlfriend... or just the girlfriend experience, then the guy deep down probably already knows the answer.

Not always.  I actually like to learn from others and appreciate and respect their opinion.   Sometimes I NEED a 'reality' check.

Paulie, at this stage you should have no doubts.  Practically every moment with her should be a joy.  If you are harboring some nagging ambiguity, it is your subconscious saying "something ain't right."  If so, don't marry with the hope of it getting better.
 
I recall playing golf with a jaded divorce attorney many years ago at a resort.  As we played one scenic hole, a wedding was taking place at an idyllic spot nearby.  He stopped and intensely studied each person in the wedding party, muttering "Where is she."    I asked, "What are you talking about?"  "I am looking for the little old lady who slips every bride a pill that turns them into a bitch.   Where is the little old lady?  She is there somewhere."   ;)

If you eventually marry, the first year of her adjustment could be stressful, especially if her business does not progress as planned.   IMO, RW deal with stress by transferring it to the man.    Her problems will be your fault.  And you have a heart condition!   
 
Having said this, your plans for a two-month visit seem reasonable.  Enjoy the time together.  It will be a lot of fun.  Do not forget that you will have some work to do.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 12, 2013, 09:57:56 AM
Still believing in that "pleasant personality" fantasy, calmissile?

Absolutely!  Tulip seems to have pegged the situation right on target.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 09:58:54 AM
It was a rhetorical question.  Nevertheless, I disagree.  She bites just as "hard" as any other woman here.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 12, 2013, 10:02:43 AM
Because all the assets accumulated in the course of marriage belong to both spouses and should be divided 50/50

We are in agreement!

I think you misinterpreted Pats comment.  I believe he was referring to property accumulated prior to a marriage.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 12, 2013, 10:05:44 AM
Man:  Honey would you still love me if I lost all my money?

Woman:  Yes, of course.  And I would miss you also.


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 12, 2013, 12:56:20 PM
This whole thing reeks of evil to the very core.

If modern marriage has been reduced to this petty thought process of " what do I get out of it ? "
and Divorce has the effect of resolving the agreement of " I did not get what I thought I would , or what I wanted "
Then a pre nump is the equal of admitting you don't know the person well enough to become married to them, and more over , you don't trust them with your "stuff", and that "stuff " is more important to protect than anything else.
This whole mindset of the mass acquisition of money or material things is just a face painted another color over greed and envy.
It's just stuff.
It's only money.

Modern Marriages that need these long agreements and disclaimers seem to not be about happiness and love, but about something very far from those ideals.

IMO

In essence "I got mine, fcuk you."

Yea, sounds like that.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 12, 2013, 01:07:45 PM
It is not divorce laws, it is court and judge who are not considered as fair for some who have assets or business. The question is why so many guys want today to make prenupt? Because the law (the judges) don't protect them.

Bzzzz Wrong!!

I have a male friend who is very loud, profane, and short-tempered. Still, he is a good friend.

He dated many gorgeous babes and finally married. The woman came from high society and very proper. I always scratched my head about that one. They had a child.

Eventually the waters came to be leveled and they started having problems. The inevitable happened and they filed for divorce.

I remember advising him to be smart because his business was on the line.

Yea, right.

No one was going to tell him he was wrong, it was his business, he built it from the ground up, yadda, yadda, yadda.

You guessed it. He was spanked in court. Not because the judge was against men, but because he was a royal idiot.

Eventually, he lost his business and filed for bankruptcy.

You should hear him basically saying the same above. Judges hate men, women will screw you in court, bla, bla, bla.

These are the cases you hear about.

Those guys who lost nothing in court? No one believes them. I should know.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 12, 2013, 01:13:56 PM
Those in disfavor of prenups seem to be taking a simple view.   If  family law were that simple, real estate attorneys would handle divorces.
 
Is there anyone who marries without trusting the other person?  I think not.  Yet, 50% of marriages end in divorce.  Why?  Easy answer - things change.  That is reason enough for a prenup.
 


LMFAO

You think a man who imported a young, hot babe for marriage and tells her she has to sign a prenup has a lot of trust in her?

Where is it? Where is it?

Ah, here it is.

 :ROFL:

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 12, 2013, 01:15:13 PM
Would you go 49/51 if I throw in the dog and our sex tapes also?

Sex tapes with the dog?

 :puke:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 12, 2013, 01:36:11 PM
It was a rhetorical question.  Nevertheless, I disagree.  She bites just as "hard" as any other woman here.

Rewind => Play => Repeat  :clapping:


I could not contain myself. My jaw dropped and I wanted to laugh but I'm at my desk so I had to muffle my laughter.

Tulip, your husband is a very lucky man.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Daveman on March 12, 2013, 01:44:27 PM
I can't understand why there is so much poison and spite in your words. The only one reason, I believe, is that you are not happy. Your lot ( destiny ) - to be dumb ( wordless ) in your family as you seem to be "nothing" there, like "zero" for your husband and you are off your husband's mind and his attention. You seem not to have got what had been expected by you. And you have neither love from your "best-half", nor even simple things, I believe. The only thing you can be pleased with and can allow yourself is to spread all your poison and negative emotions on other persons here, believing that no feelings exist and there is only a will of benefits. I am sure if some day your husband loses his money ( his job etc ) you will disappear out of his life and go for looking for "someone next", who is able to give you more. I have never been saying what others want to hear. I got used to saying what I think about. As for a drum and a flag.. I could advise you to put it into a place, that had been advised by Melanie Griffith in "Working Girl" but I won't do it. Just take that flag and that drum and lead the column of such unhappy and willing-a-lot-but-getting-nothing persons like you  :welcome:


Heya Tulip,
Keep in mind that posts aimed at another member's marriage is out of bounds here.


As for the attitude.
I see nothing wrong with a positive attitude about romance and love.  Wish more people had such.







Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 12, 2013, 02:04:32 PM
LMFAO

You think a man who imported a young, hot babe for marriage and tells her she has to sign a prenup has a lot of trust in her?

Where is it? Where is it?

Ah, here it is.

 :ROFL:

Unlike your normal self, this one goes over your head. 
 
Lets add it up:
 
Marriage will cost:  visa expenses, relocation expenses, adjustment expenses,  prenup preparation (not to mention shoes, dental, cosmetics, insurance, fender repairs, some of his favorite things being tossed, new mattress and bedding, .........  ;) ).
 
Divorce will cost:  legal fees plus whatever the prenup stipulates to be paid, which to be fair will not be small.
 
Not little money.   Girlfriends are far less expensive than a wife.   Kept women are less expensive.  Do you understand why ML is not married after a hundred trips to the FSU?
 
Facing these costs, why would a man enter a marriage expecting it to fail? I assert the man who marries has trust.    Call him mentally impaired because of  cranial-phallic blood shunting, yet for sure he is a believer in the institution of marriage, family etc.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 12, 2013, 02:08:53 PM
It was a rhetorical question.  Nevertheless, I disagree.  She bites just as "hard" as any other woman here.

She delivers her bite with some diplomacy if not class.   
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 12, 2013, 02:15:46 PM
Rewind => Play => Repeat  :clapping:


I could not contain myself. My jaw dropped and I wanted to laugh but I'm at my desk so I had to muffle my laughter.

Tulip, your husband is a very lucky man.

+100

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 12, 2013, 02:18:43 PM
Tulip  :welcome: You have a refreshing style of expression.
 
Regarding Doll, I have read her posts over the years.  I believe she has an enduring, loving marriage. 
 
Some RW are more pragmatic and others are more romantic.  We are all different, and that is what makes RWD valuable -  sincere advice from varied perspectives.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 12, 2013, 02:31:55 PM
Here is something to ponder for fun!

What if the situation was reversed.......
The wife wants the husband to immigrate to the FSU because she does not want to immigrate.
Assuming the roles were reversed....
The poor guy will have to further his education to get a job and that will take time.
He is leaving all his friends and relatives behind which he loves dearly.
What happens when the quick tempered FSU wife throws him out of the house without a penny?
How will he survive?
He might even have to start a forum for whining men that were abused by their wives and left destitute.

Should he make the same demands for security in advance such as some women are suggesting?

Sorry, just a twisted moment today.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 12, 2013, 02:46:12 PM
Here is something to ponder for fun!

What if the situation was reversed.......
The wife wants the husband to immigrate to the FSU because she does not want to immigrate.
Assuming the roles were reversed....
The poor guy will have to further his education to get a job and that will take time.
He is leaving all his friends and relatives behind which he loves dearly.
What happens when the quick tempered FSU wife throws him out of the house without a penny?
How will he survive?
He might even have to start a forum for whining men that were abused by their wives and left destitute.

Should he make the same demands for security in advance such as some women are suggesting?

Sorry, just a twisted moment today.
He will go back to his country of cause!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 12, 2013, 03:14:31 PM
I can't understand why there is so much poison and spite in your words. The only one reason, I believe, is that you are not happy. Your lot ( destiny ) - to be dumb ( wordless ) in your family as you seem to be "nothing" there, like "zero" for your husband and you are off your husband's mind and his attention. You seem not to have got what had been expected by you. And you have neither love from your "best-half", nor even simple things, I believe. The only thing you can be pleased with and can allow yourself is to spread all your poison and negative emotions on other persons here, believing that no feelings exist and there is only a will of benefits. I am sure if some day your husband loses his money ( his job etc ) you will disappear out of his life and go for looking for "someone next", who is able to give you more. I have never been saying what others want to hear. I got used to saying what I think about. As for a drum and a flag.. I could advise you to put it into a place, that had been advised by Melanie Griffith in "Working Girl" but I won't do it. Just take that flag and that drum and lead the column of such unhappy and willing-a-lot-but-getting-nothing persons like you  :welcome:
Girl, what is quoted in this post is a PERSONAL attack. You know nothing about me or my family, yet you "assume" all these things.
Absolutely in the "best traditions" of FSU. :D
See? It didn't take you long to really reveal your "plesant personality".
Sure, there is NO spice and poison in what you wrote to the person you know nothing about.
 :clapping:
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 12, 2013, 03:21:10 PM
Bzzzz Wrong!!

I have a male friend who is very loud, profane, and short-tempered. Still, he is a good friend.

He dated many gorgeous babes and finally married. The woman came from high society and very proper. I always scratched my head about that one. They had a child.

Eventually the waters came to be leveled and they started having problems. The inevitable happened and they filed for divorce.

I remember advising him to be smart because his business was on the line.

Yea, right.

No one was going to tell him he was wrong, it was his business, he built it from the ground up, yadda, yadda, yadda.

You guessed it. He was spanked in court. Not because the judge was against men, but because he was a royal idiot.

Eventually, he lost his business and filed for bankruptcy.

You should hear him basically saying the same above. Judges hate men, women will screw you in court, bla, bla, bla.

These are the cases you hear about.

Those guys who lost nothing in court? No one believes them. I should know.
I never said that a guy should loose nothing. 
But obsiouvly this one was enough stupid to not sign a prenup to protect his business at least.
So yes the court didn't protect him because the common mariage didn't not exclude business and so the court.
He should have sign a prenup like Gator has explained previously.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 04:54:49 PM
Here is something to ponder for fun!

What if the situation was reversed.......
The wife wants the husband to immigrate to the FSU because she does not want to immigrate.
Assuming the roles were reversed....
The poor guy will have to further his education to get a job and that will take time.
He is leaving all his friends and relatives behind which he loves dearly.
What happens when the quick tempered FSU wife throws him out of the house without a penny?
How will he survive?
He might even have to start a forum for whining men that were abused by their wives and left destitute.

Should he make the same demands for security in advance such as some women are suggesting?

Sorry, just a twisted moment today.


Isn't the rationale for the choice of FSUW as mates because they allegedly have not been "contaminated" by the "feminazi" ideas WW allegedly hold dear?  Don't MOB sites, and certain males on this very forum, espouse the "femininity" and "traditional values" WW allegedly eschew?  So, if you are seeking a woman from a "traditional" culture, that means accepting her "traditional" values, i.e., men are the family's providers and are expected to go out and earn a living no matter what the consequences, and to support their women no matter what.


If you want alimony, marry a WW.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 12, 2013, 05:15:55 PM

Then a pre nump is the equal of admitting you don't know the person well enough to become married to them,



I wouldn't say that. Anyone who says they know someone 100% before marriage is lying or naive. If you don't know the person 100%, you can't trust them 100%. I don't need to trust a woman 100% to enter into marriage with her. I'm into reality and the reality is everyone is flawed.


I know people who knew their kids all their lives and when they died, their kids fought over the inheritence. In one case the family business was dissolved and hundreds of thousands of dollars went to attorney fees and the siblings were worse off financially and emotionally in the end. If the father that died relied on a document called a will instead of trusting the kids will do the right thing, everyone would be better off. The father was a fool.


A prenup is another document that can ease the pain of two people divorcing and keep the attorneys from making an expensive fight. Nobody should sign a prenup they don't agree to, feel comfortable with, and/or is not fair. They should sign only when they feel happy that it's fair. If they don't like it or lose trust in their partner, they should not get married.


 Why is it the person that presents the prenup the bad guy? It takes two to come to an agreement. Have any of you ever agreed to something and later didn't like the results and then blamed the other party? If so, who's the dummy? The guy who crafted the terms or the guy who agrees to it?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on March 12, 2013, 05:34:32 PM

Isn't the rationale for the choice of FSUW as mates because they allegedly have not been "contaminated" by the "feminazi" ideas WW allegedly hold dear?  Don't MOB sites, and certain males on this very forum, espouse the "femininity" and "traditional values" WW allegedly eschew?  So, if you are seeking a woman from a "traditional" culture, that means accepting her "traditional" values, i.e., men are the family's providers and are expected to go out and earn a living no matter what the consequences, and to support their women no matter what.


If you want alimony, marry a WW.

Get back in the kitchen, woman.  Who gave you a say?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: noelscot on March 12, 2013, 05:43:23 PM
Get back in the kitchen, woman.  Who gave you a say?


Prenuptial agreements are for rich crackers with something to lose. It's how you keep an Irrawaddy cobra from taking half of everything you own, I hear. Apparently, the FSU is not too cold of a clime for them.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 12, 2013, 06:35:18 PM


A prenup is another document that can ease the pain of two people divorcing and keep the attorneys from making an expensive fight. Nobody should sign a prenup they don't agree to, feel comfortable with, and/or is not fair. They should sign only when they feel happy that it's fair. If they don't like it or lose trust in their partner, they should not get married.



The problem with a prenup IMHO, is it provides and establishes an "out". Marriage is suppose to be for a lifetime. If you can see that going in, it isn't going to be a lifetime, again IMHO, it's much better to not get in it. Marriage can and does require real sacrifice that goes well beyond money and possessions. A prenup is as tempting to both parties that agreed to it to check it's worth and exit the marriage when the waters get rough.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 12, 2013, 07:13:34 PM
The problem with a prenup IMHO, is it provides and establishes an "out". Marriage is suppose to be for a lifetime. If you can see that going in, it isn't going to be a lifetime, again IMHO, it's much better to not get in it. Marriage can and does require real sacrifice that goes well beyond money and possessions. A prenup is as tempting to both parties that agreed to it to check it's worth and exit the marriage when the waters get rough.


Yet most guys on this forum are on their second or third marriages. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 12, 2013, 07:49:02 PM
If you can see that going in, it isn't going to be a lifetime, again IMHO, it's much better to not get in it.




Yet most guys on this forum are on their second or third marriages. 


Lot of intelligent people with good intentions participate at this forum. We thought we knew the bright future entering our first marriage but found out we aren't psychic.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 12, 2013, 08:12:49 PM


Lot of intelligent people with good intentions participate at this forum. We thought we knew the bright future entering our first marriage but found out we aren't psychic.


My post wasn't intended to slight anyone.  It was merely to present reality.  I think most people enter into marriage with the best of intentions yet we see a high divorce rate.


Things change and our society has made getting out of marriage incredibly easy.


I think most people wish for the movie love affairs that last forever.  Reality is different...  Look at people saying a marriage that lasts 10/14 years is considered successful.





Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 12, 2013, 08:37:29 PM
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
Meh, I don't know.  I do have substantial assets.  But I wouldn't get a prenup anyway, and had I married a wealthy man, were I to divorce, I wouldn't ask for a cut of his assets.  It's just not the way I live.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 12, 2013, 08:41:23 PM
Meh, I don't know.  I do have substantial assets.  But I wouldn't get a prenup anyway, and had I married a wealthy man, were I to divorce, I wouldn't ask for a cut of his assets.  It's just not the way I live.

Boe, didn't you say somewhere earlier that you advise all your clients to get pre-nups.

Off to bed;  read your answer tomorrow.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2013, 08:46:24 PM
No, most of my clients are already married.  But if a client of wealth is going into a second marriage, yes, I do advise them to get prenups, and if a client asked if it was a good idea from a legal perspective, I would say yes.  I don't draft them, though.


In my observation, businessmen are great providers, but, in general terms, they are not great husbands, unless their wives are equally involved in the business, or are fine being, for all intents and purposes, "single". 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 12, 2013, 09:29:28 PM
No, most of my clients are already married.  But if a client of wealth is going into a second marriage, yes, I do advise them to get prenups, and if a client asked if it was a good idea from a legal perspective, I would say yes.  I don't draft them, though.


In my observation, businessmen are great providers, but, in general terms, they are not great husbands, unless their wives are equally involved in the business, or are fine being, for all intents and purposes, "single".

We agree on something.      :clapping:

I might point out that the wife does not necessarily need to be involved in the same business as her husband, but having her own career also often makes great marriages (assuming the kids are already gone).

Hate to admit you are right about businessmen often not making good husbands.  My mistake in my first marriage.  Owning a business and working 90 hours a week 6/7 days/week does not provide the quality time together.  Unfortunately it is often necessary in order for the business to survive the first 10 years or so.  When all of your assets are tied up in the business, it's sort of a trap.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 12, 2013, 10:10:39 PM

My post wasn't intended to slight anyone.  It was merely to present reality.  I think most people enter into marriage with the best of intentions yet we see a high divorce rate.


Things change and our society has made getting out of marriage incredibly easy.


I think most people wish for the movie love affairs that last forever.  Reality is different...  Look at people saying a marriage that lasts 10/14 years is considered successful.

Maybe it's because you make it different and accept that as an excuse, it's not.
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.

Bullshit. You can beat off over your "substantial assets" till the cows come home and call prenups high moral ground but, it isn't. If you can't handle marriage, don't marry or marry someone with as much as you. It's quite simple isn't it? Or wait, your wealth is so substantial you have no equal? Cry me a river.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ade on March 12, 2013, 10:17:24 PM
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.

The way I think of it is that those with substantial assets banging about have far more they can give away without feeling the pinch. The less you have, the less you can afford and the longer it can take to recover - a school teacher losing half their house may never manage to buy another like it for instance. So, what does that say? The more money you have, the more you want? The more you have the greedier you are?

Personally, when I invested my life in marriage it was all in or nothing. Money and stuff aren't that important in the scheme of things anyway.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 12, 2013, 10:41:25 PM
Maybe it's because you make it different and accept that as an excuse, it's not.
Bullshit. You can beat off over your "substantial assets" till the cows come home and call prenups high moral ground but, it isn't. If you can't handle marriage, don't marry or marry someone with as much as you. It's quite simple isn't it? Or wait, your wealth is so substantial you have no equal? Cry me a river.  :rolleyes:

Let me understand your position better.  Lets take an example of a couple about to get married. 
The wife has 2 homes she inherited as well as an estate she is earning income from.  The hubby is a truck driver making average wages and no substantial assets.

If  I understand you correctly, both parties should pool all their money into one pot and live happily ever after.  If there is a divorce the 'pot' would be split 50/50.  Is this consistent with your logic?

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on March 12, 2013, 10:56:13 PM
Read what Faux Pas and Ade just said.

I have to agree with both of them.  Contemplating marriage, as I sit here the last day of another great trip to Kharkov, I would enter into marriage so that my penalty for being so stupid as to leave the marriage that I just entered into should be painful.  We make it too easy to leave, quite honestly.  If I do marry, I will do my utmost to give your beautiful daughter a playmate, immediately, Ade.  And hopefully more than one.  My goal would be to call myself I/O the 2nd.

I live simply.  Drive a pickup truck.  Don't collect things of great value.  Don't play golf, like Gator.  If you would read my profile, it would say that my only interest is my future family.  For years I have ejected AW girlfriends because they didn't have the same attitudes that I had.  That and the fact that none of them wanted to follow me on trips to Russia or Ukraine.  Those traditional values that Boe was relating above are certainly prevalent in Ukraine and parts of Russia that I have visited.

So the question of a pre-nup is abhorrent but necessary to me.  It is necessary to protect those assets related to a business operation that provides employment for many people.  But I am not a constant slave to my business and am able to segregate enough assets away from this business model that my wife would be assured that she was a winner in a court contest.  As I was reading this thread tonight, sitting just off the bed where my vision of beauty and loveliness resides, I realize that the ultimate solution might simply be to sell the business and walk away from it and concentrate on helping her pop out some babies.

When I was younger, my set of friends used to all buy large life insurance policies.  They called themselves the club whose wives were richer with them dead.  All kidding aside, none of them were offed by their wives.  Instead I watched with great pride that my friends all succeeded and that their families grew and displaced any need for displaying financial acumen.  Maybe CalMissile is right when he says that we are slaves to our business.  But I would like to expand that to say that we are slaves to the enterprise system and the governmental body of laws that support it.

In the end, it's just a guy and a gal, trying to create a stable family for themselves and their posterity.  There should be no assumption of a termination of marriage.  Simply, once children are involved, their interests take greater precedence then the interests of either of the parents, anyway.

To me, a successful marriage has no end.  And that's the way it should be.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ade on March 13, 2013, 12:06:33 AM
If you, as a couple, have similar core values the question of a pre-nup or not should not really arise. It'll be fairly obvious if you need it. If you don't have similar core values or don't really know if you do, the question you should be asking is if it's wise for you to be getting married in the first place....



Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 12:42:05 AM
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.
:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 02:02:16 AM
As i have already said : "The problem of trust and fairness is two totally differents things and should be strictly evaluated apart. It shouldn't be linked at any time."

There are here who try to link it all time.


Knowing what had become divorce last two decades for men who are making more than average  (generally all posters here are involved)  : almost 1 mariage fails for two.
Would you push YOUR SON (or incoming), with the same logic, especially if he is brilliant and especially if your couple would have paid through the nose a graduate university for him ???

I would see how many, man and woman, defending  the binary logic "you trust, you halve" (in fact it is more than halving for the men, some have come here saying that they have lost till 80%) will continue to apply it the day they marry their son (curiously the problem doesn't exist for daughters.)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ade on March 13, 2013, 02:13:02 AM
As i have already said : "The problem of trust and fairness is two totally differents things and should be strictly evaluated apart. It shouldn't be linked at any time."

There are here who try to link it all time.


Knowing what had become divorce last two decades for men who are making more than average  (generally all posters here are involved)  : almost 1 mariage fails for two.
Would you push YOUR SON (or incoming), with the same logic, especially if he is brilliant and especially if your couple would have paid through the nose a graduate university for him ???

I would see how many, man and woman, defending  the binary logic "you trust, you halve" (in fact it is more than halving for the men, some have come here saying that they have lost till 80%) will continue to apply it the day they marry their son (curiously the problem doesn't exist for daughters.)


I would, and will, try to teach my kids what is really valuable in life and that is certainly not related to money or stuff.


This is the real difference between most of those that want a pre-nup and those that don't. You guys value stuff way too much and I suspect it will hurt your marriages in the long run.  :-X
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 04:47:51 AM

I would, and will, try to teach my kids what is really valuable in life and that is certainly not related to money or stuff.


This is the real difference between most of those that want a pre-nup and those that don't. You guys value stuff way too much and I suspect it will hurt your marriages in the long run.  :-X

What will hurt me will be, as most part of my wealth comes from my family is to see my father, grand father, grand mother standing up from their graves and looking at me every morning in the bathroom with this disappointed face : "why have you been so stupid ?" for the rest of my life if i divorce,  giving a large part of what i own. Do i spit to 3 full generations of labour, my own blood ? THREE GENERATIONS of labour disbanded in few minutes because i im too lazy or too craven to not sign a document ? 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 13, 2013, 07:27:29 AM
Let me understand your position better.  Lets take an example of a couple about to get married. 
The wife has 2 homes she inherited as well as an estate she is earning income from.  The hubby is a truck driver making average wages and no substantial assets.

If  I understand you correctly, both parties should pool all their money into one pot and live happily ever after.  If there is a divorce the 'pot' would be split 50/50.  Is this consistent with your logic?

No calmissle, that is not at all what I stated. Does the wife having two homes and an income earning estate seem to you as the prevailing problem here?

Much as Ade pointed out. If you have 5 million in personal wealth and get divorced and lose half of it to a spouse thus leaving you with a paltry 2.5 million and the guy down the street has $100K in his 401K account and $50K equity in his house and loses half of that in a divorce, who is the worse off? You greedy bastids will say the one with 2.5 mil and that's just not the the case. Would you rather have the 2.5 mil or the $75K most of which is nothing but paper? So you guys with "substantial assets" whinning over "oh I HAVE to have a prenup" are just blowing smoke up your own ass. If you are that weathy and that scared of losing some or all of it, simply don't marry.

That said, a good business person is going to protect that business. Separating personal wealth from business wealth is sound business practice. If I had a family fortune and heirs to protect, I would protect them but, that would not be "my" wealth anyway. I would still have "my" personal wealth and a woman I chose to marry would be subject to that.

I am not a wealthy man by any measures but, I am no pauper either. However, my personal wealth is just as important to me as you blowhards claiming "substantial assets". Do not think for a moment that it isn't. Back to my original point, I would not marry a woman who was not worthy of at least half of my "stuff"  :D

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:32:29 AM

Facing these costs, why would a man enter a marriage expecting it to fail? I assert the man who marries has trust.    Call him mentally impaired because of  cranial-phallic blood shunting, yet for sure he is a believer in the institution of marriage, family etc.

You are the one who does not get it.

If a man trust his babe, there is no reason for him to start thinking about divorce and maintenance BEFORE they even get married.

Ergo, anyone who is demanding prenups is planning to fail.

It IS that plain and simple.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:34:13 AM
Here is something to ponder for fun!

What if the situation was reversed.......
The wife wants the husband to immigrate to the FSU because she does not want to immigrate.
Assuming the roles were reversed....
The poor guy will have to further his education to get a job and that will take time.
He is leaving all his friends and relatives behind which he loves dearly.
What happens when the quick tempered FSU wife throws him out of the house without a penny?
How will he survive?
He might even have to start a forum for whining men that were abused by their wives and left destitute.

Should he make the same demands for security in advance such as some women are suggesting?

Sorry, just a twisted moment today.

Tough walking in somebody else shoes, isn't it?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:35:23 AM
I never said that a guy should loose nothing. 
But obsiouvly this one was enough stupid to not sign a prenup to protect his business at least.
So yes the court didn't protect him because the common mariage didn't not exclude business and so the court.
He should have sign a prenup like Gator has explained previously.

Pat, let me be a little more clear.

The court does NOT defend stupidity.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:39:15 AM
The problem with a prenup IMHO, is it provides and establishes an "out". Marriage is suppose to be for a lifetime. If you can see that going in, it isn't going to be a lifetime, again IMHO, it's much better to not get in it. Marriage can and does require real sacrifice (and lots of work - Me) that goes well beyond money and possessions. A prenup is as tempting to both parties that agreed to it to check it's worth and exit the marriage when the waters get rough.

The answer to all questions. Right here.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:41:33 AM


Lot of intelligent people with good intentions participate at this forum. We thought we knew the bright future entering our first marriage but found out we aren't psychic.

Actually, we weren't smart or we were lazy, or both.

Psychic has nothing to do with this. The sooner you realize the above the better the chances at your marriage.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:44:16 AM
These pre-nup discussions come up here frequently.

As some have said before me; it all boils down to one factor.
The haves and have-nots.

Those men who don't have substantial assets obviously see no reason for pre-nups.  But instead of admitting to the logic of why they feel this way, they espouse the high minded ideas of love, trust, knowing the other person, money is just pieces of paper and bla, bla, bla.

Sort of the reverse of the playboy with inherited wealth who ridicules someone who has to worry about where his next meal is coming from.

It is not a concern for him (where his next meal comes from); thus it is wrong for anyone else to be concerned.

Those women who don't have their own substantial assets despise the idea of pre-nups.

This is all pretty much cut and dry logic; yet the arguments go on and on.

Bullshevik

It is plain and simple, that bitch is not getting any of mine.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:48:02 AM
Let me understand your position better.  Lets take an example of a couple about to get married. 
The wife has 2 homes she inherited as well as an estate she is earning income from.  The hubby is a truck driver making average wages and no substantial assets.

If  I understand you correctly, both parties should pool all their money into one pot and live happily ever after.  If there is a divorce the 'pot' would be split 50/50.  Is this consistent with your logic?

I though marriage was two becoming one. I guess I've been deluded all these years.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:52:22 AM

I would, and will, try to teach my kids what is really valuable in life and that is certainly not related to money or stuff.


This is the real difference between most of those that want a pre-nup and those that don't. You guys value stuff way too much and I suspect it will hurt your marriages in the long run.  :-X

Great planning.

I started early with my older children and I'm starting to see some fruition. Still working on the little one.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 07:54:54 AM
What will hurt me will be, as most part of my wealth comes from my family is to see my father, grand father, grand mother standing up from their graves and looking at me every morning in the bathroom with this disappointed face : "why have you been so stupid ?" for the rest of my life if i divorce,  giving a large part of what i own. Do i spit to 3 full generations of labour, my own blood ? THREE GENERATIONS of labour disbanded in few minutes because i im too lazy or too craven to not sign a document ?

Pat:

You have two choices.

1) Don't marry. Ever.

2) Work your ass off making your marriage successful.

Your grand parents are dead and buried. Keep it that way.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 13, 2013, 09:14:16 AM

I would, and will, try to teach my kids what is really valuable in life and that is certainly not related to money or stuff.

Interesting use of the word "teach."   Ade, you are an intelligent man and you seem very enthused about being a father.  As a long time  father, and certainly old enough to be a grandfather, I share the following with a new father just starting his 20-year lesson plan.

What do I consider the most valuable life  lessons for children?   Answer:  the joy of family, friends and love.  Also important:  forgiveness, generosity, respect and gratitude for the blessing of life, honesty, etc.   However, the values I just listed are not intentionally taught but can only be inculcated from the way you as a parent live your life.  They are watching you all the time.
 
What is taught to kids to prepare them for the maze of life?  I place "money" but not "stuff" in my innumerable list as follows:  discipline (self-control), importance of knowledge, goal setting - risk taking - risk management, determination,  etc. The category of discipline includes health management and money management.  Yes, IMO, money management is a valuable life lesson. 
 
Making money is also a good lesson, but enjoying money is even better.  A Mexican saying,  "money belongs not to the person who makes it, but to the person who spends it."  The saying continues with "love belongs not to the one who receives it but to the person who gives it."
 
Before I close, please think about this.  A long time ago a smart woman told me something that has really helped me with my children:   catch your kids doing something right and immediately praise them.   Too many parents IMO focus on the negative.

I do not want nor expect a response.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 13, 2013, 09:27:58 AM


This is the real difference between most of those that want a pre-nup and those that don't. You guys value stuff way too much and I suspect it will hurt your marriages in the long run.  :-X

Stuff?   :D  I drive a 1998 SUV.   I consider it very functional, and the annual depreciation is nil.   I can park it anywhere without concern. 
 
I admit to having some  stuff, yet I enjoy and appreciate this stuff the same as my wife appreciates jewelry.  However, we are not prisoners to it.   It is partially insured, and if a burglar stole it, c'est la vie.  In fact, my wife had some far more expensive jewelry from her first husband that was stolen a long time ago.  She does not fret but did insist I buy a safe.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 13, 2013, 09:42:44 AM
You are the one who does not get it.

If a man trust his babe, there is no reason for him to start thinking about divorce and maintenance BEFORE they even get married.

Ergo, anyone who is demanding prenups is planning to fail.

It IS that plain and simple.

Planning to fail?    Or planning for the adverse consequences if failure, however unlikely, were to occur.

From Wiki:  Risk management is the identification, assessment, and prioritization of risks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk) (defined in ISO 31000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_31000) as the effect of uncertainty on objectives, whether positive or negative) followed by coordinated and economical application of resources to minimize, monitor, and control the probability and/or impact of unfortunate events.
 
I do not expect to be involved in a serious automobile accident,  yet I wear my seatbelt.   I buy "uninsured motorist" insurance.  I also have flood insurance.
 
Did you buy life insurance so your wife could continue her present lifestyle in the unlikely event of your early death? 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 09:56:12 AM
Gator introduced two smart concepts :

money management
risk management

risk of divorce : almost 50 % in the west.

And me i add two values :
The respect of the labour (money is just a transcription of that) 
The respect of elders
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 10:01:06 AM

Planning to fail?    Or planning for the adverse consequences if failure, however unlikely, were to occur.


I see you understand now. Planning to fail.

Dude, I've been doing risk assessments for risk managers for almost 30 years. I KNOW what risk management is. Planning for failure.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 10:13:24 AM
Hi Everyone...

I am on my way back to Los Angeles and right now the plane is just now entering the lower part of the Arctic circle. 

The last few days in Istanbul were very interesting and I know for the sake of my health, emotions, and financial well-being, I must let go of this woman.  It is sad because she does have a sweet, endearing way about her.  The love does run deep, I do not doubt that.  I touched her heart, she touched mine.  I don't think I ever met such an intense woman with so many positive characteristics. 

HOWEVER, there is an equal and opposite side that counter balances what I just wrote.  It has to do with her expectations, attitude, money and IMHO - entitlement.  It also makes me think this might be not as real as I thought.  Is it really possible that someone can fake deep love and affection and do it so well? 

Without getting into a discourse that would turn into a tome, I will just merely highlight some key thoughts below:
1) As a gift, I bought her a new video cam.  When it was time for her to look at it, she was sitting on her couch and angrily made a comment that during the week that I was there, I didn't take the time to show her how it works  (I had work to do and we were busy with one another).  First off, I dislike video cams and do not even attempt to use them.  In any event, she said I should have 'studied' the manual and then demonstrated it to her. She said ‘my ex used to do that.'  (Did that comment ever piss me off.)  I responded that I would have preferred to sit with her and go through it together.  She kept on and on, so I just excused myself from her presence and walked into another room.  I was fuming!  Later she came to me and apologized, stating that she was feeling badly about my leaving the next day.  Is that ever a funny way of showing you are going to miss someone!
 
2) As I mentioned to all of you, her apartment was robbed.  They took about $2,000.  I said she shouldn't worry and that I would help her.  I did not say how much.  While I was in Istanbul, I went to the bank and was able to withdraw $500 cash which was all I could take out.  I then attempted to use my business ATM card and was planning to take out another $1,000.  But the card would not work.  When I went back to her car, I handed her the $500 and she had this disappointed look on her face before I could even explain what took place.  She said "you should have brought money with you" and then handed me back the $500 stating she didn't want it.  I thought to myself 'now this is an ungrateful person, I am done.' 

We did not talk about both incidents much after that.  I was trying to just make it through the day and all I could think about was going home. 

Later that afternoon we went for a walk and my conversation was quite candid about #3) below.

3) We talked about her 'real estate' security issue and I told her there is no way I will be handing over $100K to $150K of my money to pay for real estate in her name.  I said if we were married, that would be OK and it would have to be joint.  She said we were on a different page.  She said “you don’t trust me.”  She is right, I do not…not based on the way she goes about trying to get what she wants. 

After the walk and as we were getting close to the car, she turned to me and said - "you are a good man, I know you will do this for me" as she looked me in the eyes.  As we drove home the conversation was polite, no talk about the above issues again.

When we came back to her place, it went right back to the 'romantic' feelings.  She cooked dinner, we sat and listened to music and had a polite conversation.  I have to admit, I was feeling really distant and she knew it. 

Later as we were going to sleep, she turned to me and said "no matter what happens, you will have been my greatest love."  As a side note, I find it interesting that if someone admits to finding their 'greatest love,' they would do anything to hold onto it and find a way to work through the obstacles.  I will be thinking of this for some time to come.

Lastly, as I was preparing to leave for the airport this morning, I decided to give her the $500 and said for her to please take it.  She didn't even say thank you.  Wanna know what she said as we were driving to the airport?  "I need more than this."  What nerve. 

In her mind we are in a relationship.  Her rationale is that being the situation, I should be offering to help her in any and every way.  By the way, when I came to her the beginning of the week, she laid the utility bill in the amount of $380 Turkish Lira on the table where my computer was sitting.  I knew what she wanted.  Frankly, I let it sit there all week.  I felt so put out by that gesture. 

Overall, she said a couple of times that I do not know how to take care of her.  A few times she mentioned her ex-husband's capabilities of taking care of her. (I guess she forgot that he compromised her financially and put her on the street.)

During this recent trip, I became more of a casual observer and started to realize that my gal was being not only demanding, but negative much of the time.   If I were to mention something, she would make an anthill into a mountain.  She would literally just 'pick up the ball' and run with the idea in a negative direction.  I was really surprised because I thought she had the capacity to be a reasonable person.  I offered that we could work together and she kept pointing out that it would be mostly my responsibility or this or that idea would not work. 

So my new found friends, I am done.  I am sad, but I am done.  This is not a person who would change her thinking because she found love.  In fact, I will share this thought with you:  I think she is in the position she is in because she has it backwards and that no man would be able to tolerate such a demanding woman who says RIGHT OUT LOUD “I DESERVE TO BE TAKEN CARE OF.”  Really now?  I suppose we all deserve a winning lottery ticket. 

I will now become part of this forum and I will listen, share and learn.  I am not sure if an RW is what I want to pursue.  It seems to be a lot of work.  I will keep an open mind though. 

Best wishes to all!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 13, 2013, 10:26:30 AM
Paulie

My friend, it is better you not only discovered this now but, much better you didn't marry her and discover it later. The drop dead gorgeous good looks, warm loving mood and the sexy accent is blinding to many a men. It can make bad behavior harder to recognize. I have a feeling you're optimistic enough that you'll recognize bad behavior sooner the next time around
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 10:34:43 AM
Paulie
you impress me
i know that you have deep feelings, it hurts, a lot.
Take care of you,
Take the time to do this morny, if it is your decision.
Anyway you will be stronger in the future.

Faux Pas is right FSU women are so brilliant, so sexy, so feminine in any sense that you so attract to them that you finally loose the way to assess things with the cool head.
I have been in such situation after my first trip, believe me i am still thinking to this woman, three years and half after, but the choice i have done since is really, really better ....
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 13, 2013, 10:47:37 AM
I see you understand now. Planning to fail.

Dude, I've been doing risk assessments for risk managers for almost 30 years. I KNOW what risk management is. Planning for failure.

Why do you use the term "planning to fail" instead of "planning for failure."   Prepositions have meaning to me.   
 
If I surmise correctly from the little you reveal in your posts about your profession, your work dealt with toxic chemicals, presumably with regard to carcinogenesis.    The lifetime probability that a human will die of cancer is 25%, yet the federal government standard for exposure is to not increase cancer risk by more than 1x106 .     
 
In other words, your 30 years of risk assessments had the objective to assure cancer risk does not increase from 25% to 25.000001%.     Please don't suggest that everyone should ignore a 50% probability of failure when your professional mission was a scientific analysis of a 0.000001% probability target.   
 
We are from different planets.   I give my opinion for my life, pointing out my reasons for a prenup and highlighting the protection that a good prenup can afford both parties.  I do not state that everyone should do it, nor do I criticize those who do not.  You voice a contrarian opinion.  And that is what RWD does best.  However, you do not stop there but criticize if not belittle those who consider more issues than you did.      Do you see the difference?  Why make it personal?   
 
I am becoming less tolerant, or more jaded, or something.  I sense a growing narrowmindedness at RWD, and it is beginning to annoy me in my golden years.
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 10:53:03 AM
Faux & Patagonie,

You are both right and I appreciate our new friendship, especially all of your support and no judgement.  Really, it means a lot to me. 

During the last 8 months I pretty much cut myself off from the mainstream as I focused on this gal.  We spent hours and hours on Skype...professing our love, talking about being together, listening to one another's trials and tribulations of life. 

When we were together, it was a fairy tale for the most part.  When we didn't talk money and finance, everything was fine.  We had a few minor quarrels as most couples would.  But, the under current of her bad behavior was something I tolerated for way too long.  I am actually thinking she has a problem with men in general.  And, I am not going to get into that.  I do know some things she told me about her upbringing which lead to make that comment. 

You are both right:  I was unable to make a clear headed assessment because she had me in her 'clutches' through her charm, beauty, wit, culinary skills, outgoing personality and much more.  However, it turns out it is disingenuous.  Sadly she does not see how this has worked against her in her life.  What she attracted in the past was just as disingenuous as she was - she used them and they used her.  In the end, she has very little to show for it. 

Honestly, I would have made her life very comfortable; I would have helped her get started here;  I started a consulting firm and immediately took on a client so I could help support her needs for the future.  But her greed, her self-centered nature and especially her fears have a grip on her. 

Now it is time for me to reflect and some time down this path of life, I will reach out again.  Next time I will be more vigilant.  Boy, did this one teach me a lesson or two or three!

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 13, 2013, 11:17:08 AM
Paulie,
Great decision.
 :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
 
Many a man has become ensnarled during his first trip in the web woven by a beautiful RW black widow spider.   However, you escaped. 
 
I knew your analytical skills would prevail, and in fact your original post showed that you had already developed some serious concerns.   It really helped that you were candid with your explanation and open to comments instead of rationalizing what was obviously bad behavior. 
 
In some ways you encouraged this woman's behavior.  That is no excuse for her behavior because a good RW would not have tried to take advantage of you.  You have learned much from this experience.  There are many fine and sincere RW who would enjoy meeting you.   You will know what to do.  So I suggest that you give it another try.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 13, 2013, 11:22:28 AM
No calmissle, that is not at all what I stated. Does the wife having two homes and an income earning estate seem to you as the prevailing problem here?

Much as Ade pointed out. If you have 5 million in personal wealth and get divorced and lose half of it to a spouse thus leaving you with a paltry 2.5 million and the guy down the street has $100K in his 401K account and $50K equity in his house and loses half of that in a divorce, who is the worse off? You greedy bastids will say the one with 2.5 mil and that's just not the the case. Would you rather have the 2.5 mil or the $75K most of which is nothing but paper? So you guys with "substantial assets" whinning over "oh I HAVE to have a prenup" are just blowing smoke up your own ass. If you are that weathy and that scared of losing some or all of it, simply don't marry.

That said, a good business person is going to protect that business. Separating personal wealth from business wealth is sound business practice. If I had a family fortune and heirs to protect, I would protect them but, that would not be "my" wealth anyway. I would still have "my" personal wealth and a woman I chose to marry would be subject to that.

I am not a wealthy man by any measures but, I am no pauper either. However, my personal wealth is just as important to me as you blowhards claiming "substantial assets". Do not think for a moment that it isn't. Back to my original point, I would not marry a woman who was not worthy of at least half of my "stuff"  :D

I am not trying to give you a hard time.  We might even be in agreement, however your hostility to the topic makes it difficult to explore your convictions.
I gave you a very simple scenario to respond to and hoped to receive a simple answer without all the moral additions.
If I read your response correctly, we might be in agreement.

You stated that of course you would protect business interests and inheritance that was received prior to marriage.
Loosly translated, this means that you would protect these pre-marital assets from a divorce.
If this is the case, we are in agreement!

You comments that appear to be directed about wealth accumulated after marriage belong to both of you.  We also agree on that.  It is already covered by laws in the community property states and a prenup would be unnecessary to address these assets.

I understand your moral position that marriage is supposed to be built on love and we should enter into it without any consideration of it failing.  This is the common way most people (particularly young) enter into their first marriage (including mine).  Both parties enter into the marriage with rose colored glasses and have no thoughts of failure.  Neither party has any thoughts of a divorce or that either party could become someone that would rather destroy the families community property rather than see the other spouse receive the 50/50 split that he/she is entitled to in a divorce.

I think most people enter into their first marriage with exactly the same beliefs and attitude you have.  It is only after a hostile divorce that they look back and realize how much of their life's labor went down the drain to lawyers.  You apparently do not have an appreciation for the fact that one of the parties (husband or wife) can become very hostile in a divorce and can completely destroy the family assets that both have earned over the years.  Those rose colored glasses you each wore when entering the marriage have vanished in a hostile divorce.  If you have not been in this position it is understandable that you do not understand why couples take a more businesslike approach to protect any pre-marital assets they own in a subsequent marriage.

If I read your response correctly, you would protect any business, inheritance, and significant assets you owned prior to entering a marriage.  That we agree on.
Wealth accumulated during the marriage are automatically equally owned by both parties, so a prenup is superfluous for this, as they will be shared 50/50.  I don't think we have any disagreement on this issue either.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Tulip on March 13, 2013, 11:28:03 AM
...I will now become part of this forum and I will listen, share and learn...

Paulie, thank you for telling about the end of this story. I suppose all is over with that woman. I can't say that it is good because of broken feelings and hopes, but anyway it is better you had realized everything about her before marrying her. Money and other material things are the main things for her. You will meet your only woman and when you have met her, you will see it at once, I am sure, and you will not need any advices, although we will always be ready to share our opinions with you. I wish you the best. Be lucky! :)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 13, 2013, 11:31:57 AM
I see you understand now. Planning to fail.

Dude, I've been doing risk assessments for risk managers for almost 30 years. I KNOW what risk management is. Planning for failure.

That's sort of interesting.  You are an expert in risk management, yet you can ignore the 50% failure rate in marriages.  It appears that your 'moral views' is allowing you to ignore the 50% risk factor that you would normally be considering in your risk management training and experience.

Somehow that does not square when applying simple logic.  I doubt anyone has any issue with whatever you choose for yourself (prenup or no-prenuup).   Why are you so furious with people that have a different set of views?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Larry1 on March 13, 2013, 11:32:23 AM
Eventually the accumulated weight of bad behavior makes you unwilling to keep on with the relationship, no matter how appealing the woman's other qualities.  I'm happy that you weren't willing to keep excusing this pattern of bad behavior.  As Tulip, Faux Pas, and others wrote above, it is good that you didn't marry her.

Quote
  I am not sure if an RW is what I want to pursue.  It seems to be a lot of work.  I will keep an open mind though.   

It is more work because of the long distance, but if you find one who is right for you it's all worth it.  And, as Gator pointed out below, there are many sincere, genuine, and nice FSUW out there.

Quote
There are many fine and sincere RW who would enjoy meeting you.   You will know what to do.  So I suggest that you give it another try.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 11:37:37 AM

I will now become part of this forum and I will listen, share and learn.  I am not sure if an RW is what I want to pursue.  It seems to be a lot of work.  I will keep an open mind though. 

Best wishes to all!

Wow, that was a mouthful.

Take a step back, take a deep breath and relax.

Not all RW are like that. I know plenty that feel like you do, more spiritual. I also know of one (wife's friend here) that is carbon copy of what you describe. Still, she is a nice lady, but not one I would date.

Just take your time to reassess.

BTW, did you officially 'broke' with her? If she ask why, I would suggest you print what you just wrote and send it to her.

Good luck. Actually, you had lots of it, you lucky dog.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 11:50:36 AM
That's sort of interesting.  You are an expert in risk management, yet you can ignore the 50% failure rate in marriages.  It appears that your 'moral views' is allowing you to ignore the 50% risk factor that you would normally be considering in your risk management training and experience.

Somehow that does not square when applying simple logic.  I doubt anyone has any issue with whatever you choose for yourself (prenup or no-prenuup).   Why are you so furious with people that have a different set of views?
Yes good question, why is he so furious with people whot takes THE unavoidable 50 % in account ?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Belvis on March 13, 2013, 11:52:14 AM
Is it really possible that someone can fake deep love and affection and do it so well? 
Love is a bitch. You were lucky she was sincere with you and you saw her personality crystal clear.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 12:08:06 PM

Why do you use the term "planning to fail" instead of "planning for failure."   Prepositions have meaning to me.   
 
If I surmise correctly from the little you reveal in your posts about your profession, your work dealt with toxic chemicals, presumably with regard to carcinogenesis.    The lifetime probability that a human will die of cancer is 25%, yet the federal government standard for exposure is to not increase cancer risk by more than 1x106 .     
 
In other words, your 30 years of risk assessments had the objective to assure cancer risk does not increase from 25% to 25.000001%.     Please don't suggest that everyone should ignore a 50% probability of failure when your professional mission was a scientific analysis of a 0.000001% probability target.   
 
We are from different planets.   I give my opinion for my life, pointing out my reasons for a prenup and highlighting the protection that a good prenup can afford both parties.  I do not state that everyone should do it, nor do I criticize those who do not.  You voice a contrarian opinion.  And that is what RWD does best.  However, you do not stop there but criticize if not belittle those who consider more issues than you did.      Do you see the difference?  Why make it personal?   
 
I am becoming less tolerant, or more jaded, or something.  I sense a growing narrowmindedness at RWD, and it is beginning to annoy me in my golden years.

Fine.

First, Juan in a million is NOT carved in stone, and you should know that. Juan in a million is a benchmark where RISK MANAGERS can make engineering and 'political' decisions. Juan has many cousins; Juan in a hundred thousand, Juan in ten thousand and others.

Also, I have no clue where you got that 25% probability.

Let me share with you something. The risk that a man will develop bladder cancer during his lifetime is 3.81%.  This means this person has a chance of Juan in 26 of developing bladder cancer (100/3.81= 26). I can understand maybe why you chose this number.

However, there is a 1.5% chance for those between 45 and 54 and 19.8% for those between 65 and 74. That is in general. Now, why don't we look at the population of workers exposed to certain chemicals and do some calculations? (Hint: I do that)

There are people who are dedicated to follow trends and anticipate the odds. Those are risk assessors. Then there are those who will take the information from the risk assessors to calculate the chances of the effect of uncertainty on objectives. In my business we call that a causal effect. Others may call it failure.

Is that clear for you now?

I know a cure for being annoyed by certain events: move somewhere else.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 12:10:25 PM
That's sort of interesting.  You are an expert in risk management, yet you can ignore the 50% failure rate in marriages.  It appears that your 'moral views' is allowing you to ignore the 50% risk factor that you would normally be considering in your risk management training and experience.

Somehow that does not square when applying simple logic.  I doubt anyone has any issue with whatever you choose for yourself (prenup or no-prenuup).   Why are you so furious with people that have a different set of views?

I'm not an expert on risk management. I leave politics to the politicians.

As I mentioned above, I study trends and effects.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 13, 2013, 12:22:12 PM
so you just spent a week with her in istanbul?...
 
but you're going to wait until you get home to break up with her via phone/skype/sms?
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 12:25:08 PM
I now know my intuition is alive and doing better than I ever expected.  Seriously, I needed a reality check, and an instinct check.  I know I can’t operate in this world alone.  I think when I went into this, I didn’t have any idea of what I would find or would find me.  In the past I have tolerated bad behavior.  But then again, I am no angel either. 

However, with Ms. Istanbul,  I was very sweet, kind, giving, loving and to much of an extent more generous then ever.  I don’t thing I encouraged her bad behavior;  I think she sensed my generosity early on and like a ‘frog in a pot of cold water, she turned up the heat and I started adjusting my temperature.”  I am glad I jumped out before I was completely cooked. 

And yes, I finally realized that her bad behavior far outweighed the love she had for me – real or not.  I did find myself excusing her bad behavior on many occasions and the discomfort level became more than I could bear. 

I like the idea of writing her based on my most recent posts.  I am not sure what that would accomplish versus just saying “You are right honey, we ARE on a different page.  In fact we are in different books.”  If she asks me why, I would give her an explanation.  But I sense she knows why. 
I now believe that her ex-husband (who is still begging for her to let him back) waited on her hand and foot,  lost himself in the process and eventually lost until he was broke.  She strikes me as a ‘man eater.” 
 
So for those of you who think I should continue on because there are RW who would be different, where do I start?  What suggestions do you have? 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 13, 2013, 12:31:48 PM
I am not trying to give you a hard time.  We might even be in agreement, however your hostility to the topic makes it difficult to explore your convictions.
I gave you a very simple scenario to respond to and hoped to receive a simple answer without all the moral additions.
If I read your response correctly, we might be in agreement.

You stated that of course you would protect business interests and inheritance that was received prior to marriage.
Loosly translated, this means that you would protect these pre-marital assets from a divorce.
If this is the case, we are in agreement!

You comments that appear to be directed about wealth accumulated after marriage belong to both of you.  We also agree on that.  It is already covered by laws in the community property states and a prenup would be unnecessary to address these assets.

I understand your moral position that marriage is supposed to be built on love and we should enter into it without any consideration of it failing.  This is the common way most people (particularly young) enter into their first marriage (including mine).  Both parties enter into the marriage with rose colored glasses and have no thoughts of failure.  Neither party has any thoughts of a divorce or that either party could become someone that would rather destroy the families community property rather than see the other spouse receive the 50/50 split that he/she is entitled to in a divorce.

I think most people enter into their first marriage with exactly the same beliefs and attitude you have.  It is only after a hostile divorce that they look back and realize how much of their life's labor went down the drain to lawyers.  You apparently do not have an appreciation for the fact that one of the parties (husband or wife) can become very hostile in a divorce and can completely destroy the family assets that both have earned over the years.  Those rose colored glasses you each wore when entering the marriage have vanished in a hostile divorce.  If you have not been in this position it is understandable that you do not understand why couples take a more businesslike approach to protect any pre-marital assets they own in a subsequent marriage.

If I read your response correctly, you would protect any business, inheritance, and significant assets you owned prior to entering a marriage.  That we agree on.
Wealth accumulated during the marriage are automatically equally owned by both parties, so a prenup is superfluous for this, as they will be shared 50/50.  I don't think we have any disagreement on this issue either.

calmissle
You are wrong on most fronts. I have no hostility toward the topic or prenups. I am a live and let live A-type personna. Whatever floats your boat is my approach. I make no moral judgments to those that desire prenups. I do however despise anyone's condescending remarks toward someone else's perceived lack of "substantial assets". ML's remarks were OTT. The idea that my or Ade's head is floating in the air full of fantasies because we are willing to put it on the line for the woman we love and choose to marry is a crock of shit. The idea that we couldn't comprehend the need for a prenup is bullshit and I do call bullshit where I see it.

I have been through a bitter divorce and I am all too familiar with it. You don't have to own pounds of gold bullion to feel the pain of a bitter divorce. Yes I entered my second marriage the same way I did the first and if I have a third, I'll do it the same way. All of my personal wealth is there for the taking. Whatever gets adjudicated I can live with, because quite frankly, it is just money and just stuff. Should my wife leave me broke and penniless, it won't be the first time I've been broke. I refuse to put money and possessions above my marriage. I would hope my choice for a wife felt the same way. If not, c'est la vie.

I'm not counting 50/50. We came together as one. What's mine is hers and vice-versa. Back to my point, my advice is, if you can't do this with your woman, don't marry her. It is that simple IMHO
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 12:33:53 PM
so you just spent a week with her in istanbul?...
 
but you're going to wait until you get home to break up with her via phone/skype/sms?

I am on the plane...I am thinking...I tried rationalizing it away.  Now that I am away from it, I made the decision.  We had an emotional departure because it IS a love relationship.  This is very hard for me and I have to be careful of STRESS - I have heart disease and my life takes precedence over whether or not I should do this eye to eye or Skype to Skype. 

Shall I fly back to Istanbul or fly her to California?  Do you have any spare airline miles for a ticket? 

Look this isn't easy.  I tried six ways to Sunday to keep this going.  I gave her the benefit of the doubt more times than I should have. 

Believe me,  I thought there was a chance and that is what drove me here in the first place.  I thought maybe I was being too hard on the situation.  But thankfully there are many here who were really helpful. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Larry1 on March 13, 2013, 12:41:25 PM
Quote
So for those of you who think I should continue on because there are RW who would be different, where do I start?  What suggestions do you have?   

The advice on where to start would be pretty much the same advice given to guys new to the search.  First, read threads on the forum, especially trip reports.  Then decide how you feel comfortable proceeding.  There are several options.  You can hire a person who will place profiles for you on Russian dating sites and help you weed through the responses, translate, etc.  You can talk to a matchmaker located in FSU.  You can contact a reputable agency and communicate with girls that way.  Or you can place profiles on various dating sites yourself.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 12:45:06 PM
There is nothing wrong, he needed time to think about a decision. He is just given us his thinking. Let him to do the final move.
Paulie, my bet is that she will not let you go like this.

Good guys who are doing 20 grands for a living per month, proposing marriage, 5000 per month are not arriving by whole plane in Istambul. 

She knows that her time will be  over soon, and if some humility didn't settle her some wisdom yet let me say that i have seen beautiful women  with all the brilliant life after their fourties almost cleaning the toilets around fifties because of insane expectation.
 A lot of women by being feeded by all attention bring by men become quicky an island in perdition when this attention becomes rare.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Misha on March 13, 2013, 12:52:03 PM
I tried rationalizing it away.


That is the start of most train wrecks. It certainly is not easy, but it will certainly save you much more grief in the long run.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 12:56:17 PM
calmissle
You are wrong on most fronts. I have no hostility toward the topic or prenups. I am a live and let live A-type personna. Whatever floats your boat is my approach. I make no moral judgments to those that desire prenups. I do however despise anyone's condescending remarks toward someone else's perceived lack of "substantial assets". ML's remarks were OTT. The idea that my or Ade's head is floating in the air full of fantasies because we are willing to put it on the line for the woman we love and choose to marry is a crock of shit. The idea that we couldn't comprehend the need for a prenup is bullshit and I do call bullshit where I see it.

I have been through a bitter divorce and I am all too familiar with it. You don't have to own pounds of gold bullion to feel the pain of a bitter divorce. Yes I entered my second marriage the same way I did the first and if I have a third, I'll do it the same way. All of my personal wealth is there for the taking. Whatever gets adjudicated I can live with, because quite frankly, it is just money and just stuff. Should my wife leave me broke and penniless, it won't be the first time I've been broke. I refuse to put money and possessions above my marriage. I would hope my choice for a wife felt the same way. If not, c'est la vie.

I'm not counting 50/50. We came together as one. What's mine is hers and vice-versa. Back to my point, my advice is, if you can't do this with your woman, don't marry her. It is that simple IMHO

 :applaud:        :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Misha on March 13, 2013, 12:56:33 PM
[size=78%]I now believe that her ex-husband (who is still begging for her to let him back) waited on her hand and foot,  lost himself in the process and eventually lost until he was broke.  She strikes me as a ‘man eater.”  [/size]


That is quite the interesting and radical change in perspective.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 13, 2013, 01:05:16 PM


First, Juan in a million is NOT carved in stone, and you should know that.

Why would I know it when few people do?  Yes it is a guideline; however, at the negotiation table I recall the Feds rarely settling for less protection (many moons ago).


Quote
Also, I have no clue where you got that 25% probability.
American Cancer Society.  Juan in four for males and juan in five for females of dying from cancer.  [I like your Juan].  I recall  the Juan in a million was the guideline for dying from cancer and not  developing  cancer.  An ostomy appliance or a mastectomy  is not death, biologically speaking.
 
Source:   http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer (http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer)    (which reports your 3.81% bladder cancer incidence for males)

Quote
Let me share with you something. The risk that a man will develop bladder cancer
during his lifetime is 3.81%.  This means this person has a chance of Juan
in 26 of developing bladder cancer (100/3.81= 26). I can understand maybe why
you chose this number.

But now you know and this is not the reason.


Quote
Hint: I do that
:)  I gathered.  Noble profession.  One of my best friends was  professor of toxicology at Stockholm University and member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Science.  Met him when I was with the WHO.  He did much consulting on both sides and still dabbles some.  Enjoyable Renaissance man, yet he ridiculed himself, saying there is something weird about people who make poison their life's profession.  ;)

Quote
There are people who are dedicated to follow trends and anticipate the odds.
Those are risk assessors. Then there are those who will take the information
from the risk assessors to calculate the chances of the effect of
uncertainty on objectives
. In my business we call that a causal effect.
Others may call it failure.

Is that clear for you now?

Already knew that.  And I am not sure that the heart is the best instrument for predicting any deviation from the median. 
 
To continue your explanation of those who study risk, there are those who use  scientific information such as consequences of failure and probabilities to make risk management decisions. You called them politicians.  I call them "me."   


Quote
I know a cure for being annoyed by certain events: move somewhere else.

Or I could increase my exposure to a certain toxic organic, namely ethanol.    ;D
Have a good day Muzh, and continue to protect us from toxic exposures.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 01:15:26 PM
There is nothing wrong, he needed time to think about a decision. He is just given us his thinking. Let him to do the final move.

Paulie, my bet is that she will not let you go like this.

Good guys who are doing 20 grands for a living per month, proposing marriage, 5000 per month are not arriving by whole plane in Istanbul. 

She knows that her time will be  over soon, and if some humility didn't settle her, some wisdom yet let me say that i have seen beautiful women  with all the brilliant life after their forties almost cleaning the toilets around fifties because of insane expectation.

A lot of women by being fed by all attention bring by men become quickly an island in perdition when this attention becomes rare.

Patagonie,

You are right - when the attention becomes less and less, she might gain a notion that SHE is the problem.  But I do not see it coming soon.  This woman is very proud of what men do for her, waiting on her hand and foot as she says.  Her good looks, perfume and style of clothing have carried her thus far.

I am unsure if she will give me up or not.  She now knows I am not going along with her plan and her bad behavior. 

We shall see how the next conversation goes.  It will be hard for me, but I need to do this. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 01:22:40 PM

That is quite the interesting and radical change in perspective.

Yes Misha it is.  I finally was able to separate myself from the emotional 'ether' I was in.  Ms. Istanbul is a charming and alluring lady.  She will pull you in and get you to do what she wants in a very matter of fact way. 

While I was there, her ex-husband must have called/texted her at lease a dozen times.  She hasn't told this guy she's moved onto another life.  What kind of woman does that? 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 13, 2013, 01:25:29 PM
so you just spent a week with her in istanbul?...
 
but you're going to wait until you get home to break up with her via phone/skype/sms?

Not exactly honorable.    I was more honorable and that was a mistake because she never went away.   
 
I suggest Paulie write her a short letter and then vaporize.  He left hints.  She will not be surprised.  Angry?  Of course, especially this one. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Misha on March 13, 2013, 01:31:21 PM
You are right - when the attention becomes less and less, she might gain a notion that SHE is the problem.


Sadly, I doubt it. We have a friend in her mid-fifites who has a similar mindset, she is looking for a millionaire to pay all her bills, wine her, dine her, entertain her and take her on exotic vacations, and she does not understand that the odds of her finding it are quite remote. The closest she came was a Nigerian scammer who told her that he had three houses in London and would pay for her to travel to meet him...
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 13, 2013, 01:36:37 PM


Shall I fly back to Istanbul or fly her to California?  Do you have any spare airline miles for a ticket? 

Look this isn't easy.  I tried six ways to Sunday to keep this going.  I gave her the benefit of the doubt more times than I should have. 
 

Time to man up.  With RW it is best to vaporize so that they get the message and stay out of your life.  Have her come to California?  No fooking way!
 
You made a well deliberated decision to terminate something even though you still felt some emotional attachment.  The decision is solid.  So don't leave the door open. 
 
There is a good reason why one calls something off.  You know absolutely that this woman is not good for you.     I am not saying to burn the bridges, but do close the door, then lock it and throw the key away.
 
So puff up your scrotum and write her a short letter saying goodbye.  That's it.   There is plenty of evidence to suggest that this woman is not good and that she will only become worse if you were to marry.   Enjoy your life.  That means to forget about her.  Never answer her emails.  Never, never, never, unless your doctor says unsafe roller coasters are good for you.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 13, 2013, 01:37:02 PM

Why would I know it when few people do?  Yes it is a guideline; however, at the negotiation table I recall the Feds rarely settling for less protection (many moons ago).


In all my years doing this, consultants for businesses and businesses themselves preferred dealing with the EPA rather than the state. ALL state regulations are as stringent or more, ussually more than the EPA. Also, EPA is NOT your typical regulatory agency. Most of their billion$ go to grants for other people do their work. Remember Ronald Reagan and the shrinking of the civil servants?

Quote
American Cancer Society.  Juan in four for males and juan in five for females of dying from cancer.  [I like your Juan].  I recall  the Juan in a million was the guideline for dying from cancer and not  developing  cancer.  An ostomy appliance or a mastectomy  is not death, biologically speaking.
 
Source:   http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer (http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancerbasics/lifetime-probability-of-developing-or-dying-from-cancer)    (which reports your 3.81% bladder cancer incidence for males)


Funny, the numbers I read are a bit different. 23.08% for men and 19.39% for women

Quote

But now you know and this is not the reason.


I knew that. Was being funny.

Quote
:)  I gathered.  Noble profession.  One of my best friends was  professor of toxicology at Stockholm University and member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Science.  Met him when I was with the WHO.  He did much consulting on both sides and still dabbles some.  Enjoyable Renaissance man, yet he ridiculed himself, saying there is something weird about people who make poison their life's profession.  ;)


Ask him if the dose makes the poison and get back to me.

Quote

Already knew that.  And I am not sure that the heart is the best instrument for predicting any deviation from the median.


That is if we are taking numbers into consideration. I see quite a few here that rely on these numbers to make a business transaction.

Quote

To continue your explanation of those who study risk, there are those who use  scientific information such as consequences of failure and probabilities to make risk management decisions. You called them politicians.  I call them "me."   


I use to call them something else but today I'll be nice and call them bureaucrats with no common sense. Actually, today in NYS you just have to look the part. No experience required.

Quote
Or I could increase my exposure to a certain toxic organic, namely ethanol.    ;D
Have a good day Muzh, and continue to protect us from toxic exposures.

Same here. I'll make a nice martini when I get home. Shaken, not stirred.

And on that note, time to go.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 13, 2013, 01:47:31 PM
That's sort of interesting.  You are an expert in risk management, yet you can ignore the 50% failure rate in marriages.  It appears that your 'moral views' is allowing you to ignore the 50% risk factor that you would normally be considering in your risk management training and experience.

Somehow that does not square when applying simple logic.  I doubt anyone has any issue with whatever you choose for yourself (prenup or no-prenuup).   Why are you so furious with people that have a different set of views?

Calmissile,
 
I already asked you in this thread, but don't think you;ve replied: Are you going to have a prenup with your fiancee?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 01:47:54 PM
Yes Misha it is.  I finally was able to separate myself from the emotional 'ether' I was in.  Ms. Istanbul is a charming and alluring lady.  She will pull you in and get you to do what she wants in a very matter of fact way. 

While I was there, her ex-husband must have called/texted her at lease a dozen times.  She hasn't told this guy she's moved onto another life.  What kind of woman does that?
There is one rule you need to know : it is unlikely that a women don't have minimum two irons in the fire in fact. The talent they have is to let you believe that you are the only one.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 01:50:40 PM

Sadly, I doubt it. We have a friend in her mid-fifites who has a similar mindset, she is looking for a millionaire to pay all her bills, wine her, dine her, entertain her and take her on exotic vacations, and she does not understand that the odds of her finding it are quite remote. The closest she came was a Nigerian scammer who told her that he had three houses in London and would pay for her to travel to meet him...
:ROFL:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 13, 2013, 01:56:40 PM
While I was there, her ex-husband must have called/texted her at lease a dozen times.  She hasn't told this guy she's moved onto another life.  What kind of woman does that?

Or she wanted you to believe that, in the belief it would fuel your desire for her.
 
In your shoes, I'd send her a bouquet of flowers, and, in conjunction therewith, an email telling her she is wonderful, but you do not think you are her other half, and you wish her the best for the future.  Don't answer her emails, accept her skype calls, or any other form of contact.  Move on.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 01:57:06 PM

Not exactly honorable.    I was more honorable and that was a mistake because she never went away.   
 
I suggest Paulie write her a short letter and then vaporize.  He left hints.  She will not be surprised.  Angry?  Of course, especially this one.
+1
He would have avoided any furious reactions, who could have cost him some desagrements and an high stress incompatible with his health.
Better for him to  manage this when he wants and when he is in USA.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 13, 2013, 01:57:36 PM
Yes Misha it is.  I finally was able to separate myself from the emotional 'ether' I was in.  Ms. Istanbul is a charming and alluring lady.  She will pull you in and get you to do what she wants in a very matter of fact way. 

While I was there, her ex-husband must have called/texted her at lease a dozen times.  She hasn't told this guy she's moved onto another life.  What kind of woman does that?

Two likely scenarios with this. 1) she answers those calls and texts when you're not there and 2) they weren't all from the same ex
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 02:01:29 PM

Not exactly honorable.    I was more honorable and that was a mistake because she never went away.   
 
I suggest Paulie write her a short letter and then vaporize.  He left hints.  She will not be surprised.  Angry?  Of course, especially this one.

Actually, if I knew I was going to break it with her in Istanbul, I would have.  I held onto the last moment, thinking she would get some clarity. 

I only did this because a couple of times, she insisted on paying for lunch and dinner, something she never did before.  When we were using cabs in the city, not once did she ask me for money. SO, I thought...maybe she is seeing the light.  THAT was an aberration.

I will be sending her an email. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 13, 2013, 02:03:15 PM

Or she wanted you to believe that, in the belief it would fuel your desire for her.
 
In your shoes, I'd send her a bouquet of flowers, and, in conjunction therewith, an email telling her she is wonderful, but you do not think you are her other half, and you wish her the best for the future.  Don't answer her emails, accept her skype calls, or any other form of contact.  Move on.
Or she wanted you to believe that, in the belief it would fuel your desire for her.
 Yes i have already think so.

Sending a bouquet is more a feminine thinking, but i would not reward her behavior by sending her a bouquet. I would just tell her" how i have loved her but how i felt disrespected in my generosity, and this why my heart is broken, i have so much to give, but you are just focusing on what is given". I would tell her something like that, she understands or not ... it is not his problem after the fact.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 13, 2013, 02:04:21 PM

Calmissile,
 
I already asked you in this thread, but don't think you;ve replied: Are you going to have a prenup with your fiancee?

Pit,
My fiance has been reading this forum as well as the whining RW forum for months.  Her attitude appears to be similar to Tulip's.  She does not want our relationship poisoned by a bunch of angry, bitter, people that are insignificant to us.

Since I love and respect her, I will comply with her request.  We only share personal information with trusted friends and members off-lline.   It does not take long for someone to realize this is the safest route for couples to take.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 13, 2013, 02:04:41 PM

Shall I fly back to Istanbul or fly her to California?  Do you have any spare airline miles for a ticket? 


at this point?... neither.
 
but if a girl treated me with as little respect as she treated you, there's no way i could have resisted dumping her face-to-face.
 
imagine if clark gable had sent vivien leigh a text message: 'frankly my dear, i don't give a damn.'
 
yeah -- lame.
 
(http://www.cornel1801.com/1/g/GONE_WITH_THE_WIND/18_pictures/Frankly_my_dear_I_don_t_give_a_damn.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 13, 2013, 02:05:02 PM
Sending the bouquet is a way of letting her down easily.  No matter what, this will be a disappointment to her.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 13, 2013, 02:06:18 PM
Quote
She does not want our relationship poisoned by a bunch of angry, bitter, people
that are insignificant to us.

No offense intended, but, to be frank, if she thinks a bunch of strangers online, who she likely will never meet, can poison your relationship, you don't really have a relationship.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 13, 2013, 02:06:45 PM

Time to man up.  With RW it is best to vaporize so that they get the message and stay out of your life.  Have her come to California?  No fooking way!
 
You made a well deliberated decision to terminate something even though you still felt some emotional attachment.  The decision is solid.  So don't leave the door open. 
 
There is a good reason why one calls something off.  You know absolutely that this woman is not good for you.     I am not saying to burn the bridges, but do close the door, then lock it and throw the key away.
 
So puff up your scrotum and write her a short letter saying goodbye.  That's it.   There is plenty of evidence to suggest that this woman is not good and that she will only become worse if you were to marry.   Enjoy your life.  That means to forget about her.  Never answer her emails.  Never, never, never, unless your doctor says unsafe roller coasters are good for you.

agree 100% with gator!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 02:11:33 PM

Sadly, I doubt it. We have a friend in her mid-fifites who has a similar mindset, she is looking for a millionaire to pay all her bills, wine her, dine her, entertain her and take her on exotic vacations, and she does not understand that the odds of her finding it are quite remote. The closest she came was a Nigerian scammer who told her that he had three houses in London and would pay for her to travel to meet him...

It is sad when women think there is a 'night in shining armor' with a bank account waiting for her.  What you describe is what Ms. Istanbul is seeking.  She said she is tired of working and wants someone to give her an easy life.

She almost came close.  My last wife had it 'easier' in that she didn't have to work, but she did take care of our young son.  She had the ability to do whatever she wanted.  I did not mind.  Ms. Istanbul could have had this too, to an extent. But her greed and lust for $100K-$150K pushed me away.  The negative behavior also pushed me away. 

I don't mind wining and dining, I like a nice vacation once in awhile, I don't mind paying for things my wife needs.  But in this case, we were not married and I was being asked to support a second household - hers. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 02:15:12 PM

Time to man up.  With RW it is best to vaporize so that they get the message and stay out of your life.  Have her come to California?  No fooking way! I was only joking.
 
You made a well deliberated decision to terminate something even though you still felt some emotional attachment.  The decision is solid.  So don't leave the door open.  Exactly!
 
There is a good reason why one calls something off.  You know absolutely that this woman is not good for you.     I am not saying to burn the bridges, but do close the door, then lock it and throw the key away.
 
So puff up your scrotum and write her a short letter saying goodbye.  That's it.   There is plenty of evidence to suggest that this woman is not good and that she will only become worse if you were to marry.   Enjoy your life.  That means to forget about her.  Never answer her emails.  Never, never, never, unless your doctor says unsafe roller coasters are good for you.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 13, 2013, 02:15:31 PM
Pit,
My fiance has been reading this forum as well as the whining RW forum for months.  Her attitude appears to be similar to Tulip's.  She does not want our relationship poisoned by a bunch of angry, bitter, people that are insignificant to us.

Since I love and respect her, I will comply with her request.  We only share personal information with trusted friends and members off-lline.   It does not take long for someone to realize this is the safest route for couples to take.

If you both believe a prenup is a way to go, and you have been defending this route as a sensible option for FSUW-AM marriages, I do not see anything too personal in disclosing whether you are going this route or not. I believe every participant in this thread has stated if they have/will have a prenup or not, and this generally coincides with their position.
 
To be fully open - I do not have prenup, the question has never been raised by me or my husband.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 13, 2013, 02:19:01 PM
No offense intended, but, to be frank, if she thinks a bunch of strangers online, who she likely will never meet, can poison your relationship, you don't really have a relationship.

Now that's a silly notion!  For a woman that has not yet experienced being in the US they are susceptible to the crazy stories that are propagated such as all American men are bad and abuse their wives, throw them out penniless, sell babies, harvest organs, etc. and on and on.

You would not believe how many women asked these questions during initial contacts.

I am convinced it would not matter in our case, but why complicate matters or take the risk.  It was her request, not mine.  I would much rather focus on the love we have for each other than have to defend it among the naysayers and negative thinkers.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 13, 2013, 02:20:59 PM

If you both believe a prenup is a way to go, and you have been defending this route as a sensible option for FSUW-AM marriages, I do not see anything too personal in disclosing whether you are going this route or not. I believe every participant in this thread has stated if they have/will have a prenup or not, and this generally coincides with their position.
 
To be fully open - I do not have prenup, the question has never been raised by me or my husband.

That's very nice, I hope you two live happily ever after.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 13, 2013, 02:23:35 PM
Now that's a silly notion!  For a woman that has not yet experienced being in the US they are susceptible to the crazy stories that are propagated such as all American men are bad and abuse their wives, throw them out penniless, sell babies, harvest organs, etc. and on and on.

You would not believe how many women asked these questions during initial contacts.

I am convinced it would not matter in our case, but why complicate matters or take the risk.  It was her request, not mine.  I would much rather focus on the love we have for each other than have to defend it among the naysayers and negative thinkers.
I don't think there is a risk, and the advantage of RW forums is women explaining how things "work", stages of culture shock, even where to shop, etc.
 
I don't think you should defend yourself at all to naysayers, unless you enjoy the debate. :)
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 02:24:17 PM
Or she wanted you to believe that, in the belief it would fuel your desire for her, Yes i have already think so.

Sending a bouquet is more a feminine thinking, but i would not reward her behavior by sending her a bouquet. I would just tell her" how i have loved her but how i felt disrespected in my generosity, and this why my heart is broken, i have so much to give, but you are just focusing on what is given". I would tell her something like that, she understands or not ... it is not his problem after the fact.

Actually I think she is still not over this dude.  In fact, perhaps she is keeping her options open with him in the event I bail. 

I am not sending her any bouquets, I gave her enough already.  I do like Patagonie's suggestion to tell her how she broke my heart - which she did, how much I love her deeply, so much that I allowed her to continually disrespect my generosity, how her angry outbursts - caused me to not trust her.  Will she get it? I doubt it because she is not willing to look at herself.  Not my problem anymore.  I had enough heartache (literally).
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 13, 2013, 02:25:58 PM
Why do that?  She will just perfect her act for the next guy.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 13, 2013, 02:26:24 PM
It is sad when women think there is a 'night in shining armor' with a bank account waiting for her.  What you describe is what Ms. Istanbul is seeking.  She said she is tired of working and wants someone to give her an easy life. She almost came close.  My last wife had it 'easier' in that she didn't have to work, but she did take care of our young son.  She had the ability to do whatever she wanted.  I did not mind.  Ms. Istanbul could have had this too, to an extent. But her greed and lust for $100K-$150K pushed me away.  The negative behavior also pushed me away. 

I don't mind wining and dining, I like a nice vacation once in awhile, I don't mind paying for things my wife needs.  But in this case, we were not married and I was being asked to support a second household - hers.

Funny that you mentioned that.  When I was searching for a middle aged FSUW, I got the same response from many of them.  At least they were honest with their intentions, if not a little naive about their chances.      ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 13, 2013, 02:27:24 PM
1.  I am very relieved that you came to a rational decision to end it.  I was really worried about you.

2.  It is quite scary to think that a woman (or man) can actually be such a good actor that a person can think she/he loves him/her.  We are all a million miles from seeing the two of you together, but I have a strong feeling that it was acting on her part.

3.  Send her a short note telling of the end . . . and do not answer or even look at reply messages she may send you.  In your state of mind, it is possible you could be easily sucked back into the maelstrom.

4. Read 'Pursuing FSUW 101' in the Starting Out section . . . and get back on the horse.

5.  I wish you the very best.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ade on March 13, 2013, 02:28:48 PM
I'm not pro pre-nup by any stretch of the imagination but in Doug's case I'd say he needs the best that money can buy.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 13, 2013, 02:34:04 PM
I don't think there is a risk, and the advantage of RW forums is women explaining how things "work", stages of culture shock, even where to shop, etc.
 
I don't think you should defend yourself at all to naysayers, unless you enjoy the debate. :)

Agree, and to not provide the ammunition (personal data) is the easiest way to avoid it.

Trip reports are one of the most valuable resourses newbies claim to enjoy.  Why do you think there are so few trip reports written.................... because they have read the forum and do not want their lives and decisions ripped apart by those that are inclined to do so.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 13, 2013, 02:36:31 PM
I'm not pro pre-nup by any stretch of the imagination but in Doug's case I'd say he needs the best that money can buy.

Thanks for the vote of confidence and the hidden message.  You are such a nice person.     ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 02:36:56 PM
Funny that you mentioned that.  When I was searching for a middle aged FSUW, I got the same response from many of them. At least they were honest with their intentions, if not a little naive about their chances.      ;D

There are not many of them here in the States, that is for sure.  I recall talking with a woman several years younger than me who lived in Florida.  She said she had her own money, her own home, car, etc.  She was happy to split the cost of vacations together too.  Her only request was that we do it 'top notch."  I did not have a problem with that. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ade on March 13, 2013, 02:39:28 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence and the hidden message.  You are such a nice person.     ;D

Not planning on failing are you?

Let us know how the pre-nip holds up in court.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 13, 2013, 02:42:29 PM
Agree, and to not provide the ammunition (personal data) is the easiest way to avoid it.

Trip reports are one of the most valuable resourses newbies claim to enjoy.  Why do you think there are so few trip reports written.................... because they have read the forum and do not want their lives and decisions ripped apart by those that are inclined to do so.
Personally, I am not particularly interested in trip reports, but I think if there is a discussion of the red flags, you will get good advice from those who are intimately familiar with the culture.

BTW, lonedrake wasn't ripped apart in his TR.
 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 02:45:38 PM
1.  Very relieved that you came to rational decision to end it.  I was really worried about you.

2.  It is quite scary to think that a woman (or man) can actually be such a good actor that a person can think she/he loves him/her.  We are all a million miles from seeing the two of you together, but I have a strong feeling that it was acting on her part.

3.  Send a short note telling of the end . . . and do not answer or even look at reply messages she may send you.  In your state of mind, it is possible you could be easily sucked back into the maelstrom.

4. Read 'Pursuing FSUW 101' in the Starting Out section . . . and get back on the horse.

5.  I wish you the very best.

ML, I appreciate your concern.  As for your #2 comment, the only reason I gave a thought to the possibility of it being real was that she exhibited some of the most tender thoughts and feelings.  And today, at the airport, she was in tears, would not leave as I went through security.  She lives a life alone when she is not working.  Honestly, it is hard for me to believe that she would be acting.

I think in her own way she really loves me.  I think she feels entitled (deserves was the word she used) to be 'spoiled' in return for that love.  Maybe it is more "love for sale."
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 13, 2013, 03:01:15 PM
Not planning on failing are you?

Let us know how the pre-nip holds up in court.


Ade, if you spend anymore time sitting on the toilet peeing/reading you will have a problem with blood flow to your feet.


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 13, 2013, 03:04:57 PM
Good to see you stopped making excuses for her poor character even if it borders on precipitous.  ;)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 13, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
While I was there, her ex-husband must have called/texted her at lease a dozen times.  She hasn't told this guy she's moved onto another life.  What kind of woman does that?

a woman who's still sleeping with her ex-husband.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Fashionista on March 13, 2013, 03:49:36 PM
What suggestions do you have?

I suggest you don't shower people with money particularly if they say you should. Develop friendship. Whatever women you will meet, they are not YOUR women.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 04:13:02 PM

I suggest you don't shower people with money particularly if they say you should. Develop friendship. Whatever women you will meet, they are not YOUR women.

Please explain further your comment  "they are not YOUR women."
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Fashionista on March 13, 2013, 04:32:42 PM
I am not sure I can explain it well in English. I sensed a hint of possessive attitude in your posts, but I could be wrong of course. Like you are trying to win people over with money. This is just a feeling, intuition if you wish. What you do may be insulting to people that you want to attract, and draw out those who you shouldn't associate yourself with. This is not to offend you, I am just being honest. You did ask for advice though.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 13, 2013, 04:50:47 PM
I am not sure I can explain it well in English. I sensed a hint of possessive attitude in your posts, but I could be wrong of course. Like you are trying to win people over with money. This is just a feeling, intuition if you wish. What you do may be insulting to people that you want to attract, and draw out those who you shouldn't associate yourself with. This is not to offend you, I am just being honest. You did ask for advice though.

Hi,

I kind of thought that is where you were going.  And that is totally incorrect.  Perhaps you should know me.  I do not try to, nor have to win anyone over with money.  I actually ENJOY sharing.  I was raised that way.  My family of origin is Ukrainian and Russian.  We were taught to be giving in many ways. 

I have always cared for the women in my life - girlfriends and the two women I was married to in my life.  Neither of them had to work as I was the 'breadwinner.'  I know of no other way. 

However, the woman I was seeing, who lives in Turkey and is of Ukrainian descent, was very forward in her need for things, and to be taken care of.  She seemed to 'expect' a certain 'treatment' by me.  Everything had to be, well almost perfect.  No dive restaurants for her.  And I am not saying I go to dives to eat. What I am saying is that she has an 'entitlement' issue as if things are 'owed to her.' 

The reason I came here was for advice because I thought these type of expectations and forward requests were a norm.  I found out they are not. 

As for me possessing women, that is not Paulie.  I respect women, care for women in my life and treat then with the utmost dignity.  I learned this from growing up around a village of women in my building and all of them were...Russian. 

So, there you have it.  I just managed to pick someone who has a very big ego and her needs are as big.  Sadly, she can have all that she wants and more.  She is going about it in the wrong way. 

Thanks for your post and I hope this clears it up.  I care about this forum and want to be sure people get to know me as I want to get to know them. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Fashionista on March 13, 2013, 05:13:30 PM
I believe you, Paulie  8)  . You have to rethink the way you meet people then, because you had to be very unlucky or seek in very wrong places to find such treasure.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: fathertime on March 13, 2013, 06:04:30 PM
Hi Paulie,  I'm glad you decided not to reward this poor behavior from this lady.  The more you wrote the worse she sounded.  I wouldn't want to live with such a pain in the butt, because life is just too damn short. 

Have you ever considered visiting Asian women also? 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 13, 2013, 06:38:28 PM
Please explain further your comment  "they are not YOUR women."

Paulie, Fashionista might be saying (correct me if I am wrong) the kind of fish that you catch can be directly attributed to the bait that you use.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 13, 2013, 07:07:33 PM

I am unsure if she will give me up or not.  She now knows I am not going along with her plan and her bad behavior. 



Of course she's not going to give up. Although you did not know how to take care of her, you did give her something and something is better than nothing.


Get rid of her in the FSU way. Say a short simple goodbye and never look back. Don't think of this being rude. You will be educating her.


Now onto bigger and better things. Manlooking has a good list of sites to contact RW. Contact thousands and narrow it down. I did and found a gem.


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 13, 2013, 07:33:19 PM
No, most of my clients are already married.  But if a client of wealth is going into a second marriage, yes, I do advise them to get prenups, and if a client asked if it was a good idea from a legal perspective, I would say yes. 



I was under the impression you were against prenups because you agreed with people who called it evil and for people in love with their money more than their spouse.


Although the forum members here aren't paying customers or real life friends and family, you should have give out this quality advice earlier. Although you state the advice is from a legal perspective, it's still good advice at a minimum because the legal system can make it unfair for one party or destroy both parties financially.


I've spoken with attorneys and a spiritual leader about this topic before and they all agree a prenup is a good thing. Considering they deal with a lot of people's problems and pain, I believe them.


If a man or woman won the lottery or became the next Donald Trump, he/she will be a target for insincere people. A prenup may help them ensure their partner is marrying for love and will get nothing more than a fair split in assets if things don't work out.


Some people own businesses and if an ugly divorce happens, the business dissolves and people lose their jobs. A prenup can help prevent that since more lives are involved than just two.


What does prenup mean? Prenuptial AGREEMENT.  Most normal people talk and have agreements before marriage. They talk about what they own and their responsibilities in marriage and who assumes those responsibilities. My wife told me she loves me for me and doesn't need anything I owned and earned before marriage. I did not put her words in writing in a prenup but I don't blame others for doing so or question their love for their spouse.


In essence most of us do a prenup written or verbal. Of course there are people out there that don't talk about critical things before marriage but they will have to sort it all out during and after marriage if it comes to that point.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 14, 2013, 01:52:09 AM

I was under the impression you were against prenups because you agreed with people who called it evil and for people in love with their money more than their spouse.


Although the forum members here aren't paying customers or real life friends and family, you should have give out this quality advice earlier. Although you state the advice is from a legal perspective, it's still good advice at a minimum because the legal system can make it unfair for one party or destroy both parties financially.


I've spoken with attorneys and a spiritual leader about this topic before and they all agree a prenup is a good thing. Considering they deal with a lot of people's problems and pain, I believe them.


If a man or woman won the lottery or became the next Donald Trump, he/she will be a target for insincere people. A prenup may help them ensure their partner is marrying for love and will get nothing more than a fair split in assets if things don't work out.


Some people own businesses and if an ugly divorce happens, the business dissolves and people lose their jobs. A prenup can help prevent that since more lives are involved than just two.


What does prenup mean? Prenuptial AGREEMENT.  Most normal people talk and have agreements before marriage. They talk about what they own and their responsibilities in marriage and who assumes those responsibilities. My wife told me she loves me for me and doesn't need anything I owned and earned before marriage. I did not put her words in writing in a prenup but I don't blame others for doing so or question their love for their spouse.


In essence most of us do a prenup written or verbal. Of course there are people out there that don't talk about critical things before marriage but they will have to sort it all out during and after marriage if it comes to that point.
+1
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 14, 2013, 02:34:45 AM
Paulie, Fashionista might be saying (correct me if I am wrong) the kind of fish that you catch can be directly attributed to the bait that you use.

Paulie, you are not going to like what i am writing.
The way that you have been raised is not an excuse to shower the money like you are used to.
In the case of the Istambul's lady it would had changed nothing at the end.
But you would have however saved three trips and drop her after the first one.
You would have been really less emotionaly involved because breaking after one week and breaking after eight months is not the same about feelings and the necessary morning.
You perfectly know that your relation with money is one of your failure, you are angry with yourself because you are guilty.

Let me tell you that it will be worst in Ukraine or Russia, i can even tell you how many it will be worst : 10 more. You will deal with women who earn not 3000 or 4000 $ but 300-400 $ generally or close to this numeral.
You need to understand that it's not people who needs to adjust to you and your amazing earning (you are in the top 1% earner of one of the richest country of the world), it is you who need to adjust to them, this is quite different.
You really need to work on this if you date the FSU scene.

I remember a trip report in an other forum of a rich guy who used to rent a personal driver with a Mercedes for each vacation. He was lucky because the interpreter was a good woman. She told him : unless you want to attract all goldiggers, prodaters of the city i would advice you to drop this shit instantly (to tell you the end of the story he did and is quite happy with a family now and her wife is from FSU).
He was lucky because there are thousands of women, interpreters, taxis, restaurants, agencies ready to welcome your generosity.

The woman you have met in Turkey  is low on the lookout scale, but in FSU you will find many people who are better on tricks.


Paulie, you have the chance to have time, and almost unlimited means for such endeavor.
I would advice to contact Jack Bragg or Mark Davies and subscribe to a tour, you will be protected, it will be refreshing for you and you will be with some fellows. Later, you can use Eduard to dig it and give it a more serious perspective (your mourny needs to be done).
I would advice you for the moment to NOT write to any FSU women because you will not survive to a disappointing VO in the next weeks.  The best is to not write to stay in control.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 14, 2013, 02:51:38 AM

I suggest you don't shower people with money particularly if they say you should. Develop friendship. Whatever women you will meet, they are not YOUR women.
I didn't understand it either))
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 14, 2013, 07:29:31 AM
I'm surprised you would agree with the absolute misrepresentation of what I have posted, Patagonie.


As for not marrying for love, that happens only when you do not know who you are marrying, or it's not important to you because you are marrying a body, not a soul. 




Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 14, 2013, 07:49:29 AM

Sending a bouquet is more a feminine thinking, but i would not reward her behavior by sending her a bouquet. I would just tell her" ......

FCUK YOU

LMAO

Pat, you are such a charmer.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 14, 2013, 07:53:55 AM
1.  I am very relieved that you came to a rational decision to end it.  I was really worried about you.


So..., he's not an idiot anymore, eh?  ::)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: TheTraveler on March 14, 2013, 08:00:33 AM
my impression has always been (and still is) that prenups are for very wealthy men (or women).  people worth tens or hundreds of $millions.
 
not for men who are deluding themselves into thinking they are wealthy just because their wife-to-be is from a poorer country and only earns a few hundred dollars per month.
 
i never considered a prenup, and i'm glad i didn't.  it would have hung a black cloud over our marriage and lessened the *magic* that we have together.
 
... but that being said, i can understand the viewpoint of men/women who are entering into a second (or third, etc...) marriage, and have children from a prior marriage, and would like to reserve their pre-marital assets (eg business) to pass onto those children rather than be split up (or dissolved) in a divorce.  but in cases where the wife simply outlives the husband, i frankly think the wife should get *everything*.
 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Tulip on March 14, 2013, 08:35:58 AM
So..., he's not an idiot anymore, eh?  ::)

I would like to ask the same question  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 14, 2013, 09:01:31 AM
I'm surprised you would agree with the absolute misrepresentation of what I have posted, Patagonie.


As for not marrying for love, that happens only when you do not know who you are marrying, or it's not important to you because you are marrying a body, not a soul.
Hi Boethius, i have missed the point, probably you were making a reference to "It is all intertwined.  As both jason and Faux Pas posted, it is all just stuff.   I could not fathom protecting my "stuff" from someone to whom I have entrusted my soul." i suppose (or may you elaborate it please )?
In case that it i would say that my position has not changed :

"The problem of trust and fairness is two totally differents things and should be strictly evaluated apart. It shouldn't be linked at any time."

In the decision given by the judge trust had never been existing as a factor of any sort.
Situation is only judged on health and age of spouses, time under mariage, type of mariage (prenup or not if you prefer), stuff (include here all about money), number of childrens, estimate future pensions of each, debt or mortages.
ONLY that, no sentiment,

The problem is that you can trust what you want the day of the divorce others people with a huge power are involved and they ABSOLUTELY have no compassion, no sentiment, no trust, no misery (fortunately, if judges want to give a fair decision). They only decide on objectives parameters i have described above (they try because it is not easy in fact).
We have here two camps, very similars to believers and non believers. Why the believers refuse to consider the almost 50% of failure ?
I consider for the reasons i have explained (see one of my previous post) that the normal mariage (shared or shared but previous assets or new inheritance excluded) is obsolete due to all the new laws, the trend given by cases law, and a miscealleneous reasons, which are given a clear advantage to women especially when significant amount of money are involved compare to what she would have had in case of single.
It is to men to help themselves and stop to sign these default contracts, especially when they are above the average folk (but even average must do it also).
 
After everybody is free to do what he wants, connected with his convictions, like religion.

But don't bring the question of trust, soul, because damages suffered by single divorced men are not correctly assessed.


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 14, 2013, 09:08:11 AM
I do however despise anyone's condescending remarks toward someone else's perceived lack of "substantial assets". ML's remarks were OTT.


Not anymore OTT/condescending then people trying to tell others they have trust issues if they think prenups are not bad. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 14, 2013, 09:47:03 AM

Not anymore OTT/condescending then people trying to tell others they have trust issues if they think prenups are not bad.

Really? Where was that? I must have missed it.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 14, 2013, 07:40:12 PM
my impression has always been (and still is) that prenups are for very wealthy men (or women).  people worth tens or hundreds of $millions.
 


I'd say more people do prenups than don't. It comes in verbal form, not written.


We sometimes here about someones trip report and that they are getting married but there are other elements that aren't talked about here. Say the average guy owns a house and he is marrying a RW that owns a flat. I'm sure they talked about assets and what to do with them before, during marriage, and after marriage. How many guys here own something and/or their RW owned something, talked about marriage and didn't discuss separate assets and what assets will become community assets? Can't stay quite on that issue. Love doesn't provide the answer. Two people in the marriage has to sort it out and come to an agreement.


My wife didn't own any significant assets but if she owned a flat, before marriage I would tell her not to sell it, and in the event the marriage doesn't work, she has a place to go back to. In planning for a divorce, it doesn't mean I or she doesn't trust each other or we don't love each other. If a man loves his woman, he'd think about her having a place to live if the marriage doesn't work out. Maybe a marriage doesn't work out because two people find out they aren't compatible or the lady goes into culture shock permanently.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 14, 2013, 08:24:03 PM
Hi Boethius, i have missed the point, probably you were making a reference to "It is all intertwined.  As both jason and Faux Pas posted, it is all just stuff.   I could not fathom protecting my "stuff" from someone to whom I have entrusted my soul." i suppose (or may you elaborate it please )?
In case that it i would say that my position has not changed :

"The problem of trust and fairness is two totally differents things and should be strictly evaluated apart. It shouldn't be linked at any time."

In the decision given by the judge trust had never been existing as a factor of any sort.
Situation is only judged on health and age of spouses, time under mariage, type of mariage (prenup or not if you prefer), stuff (include here all about money), number of childrens, estimate future pensions of each, debt or mortages.
ONLY that, no sentiment,

The problem is that you can trust what you want the day of the divorce others people with a huge power are involved and they ABSOLUTELY have no compassion, no sentiment, no trust, no misery (fortunately, if judges want to give a fair decision). They only decide on objectives parameters i have described above (they try because it is not easy in fact).
We have here two camps, very similars to believers and non believers. Why the believers refuse to consider the almost 50% of failure ?
I consider for the reasons i have explained (see one of my previous post) that the normal mariage (shared or shared but previous assets or new inheritance excluded) is obsolete due to all the new laws, the trend given by cases law, and a miscealleneous reasons, which are given a clear advantage to women especially when significant amount of money are involved compare to what she would have had in case of single.
It is to men to help themselves and stop to sign these default contracts, especially when they are above the average folk (but even average must do it also).
 
After everybody is free to do what he wants, connected with his convictions, like religion.

But don't bring the question of trust, soul, because damages suffered by single divorced men are not correctly assessed.


I think most of us are a little to old to believe in fairness.  However, I do not believe a relationship can endure over time without trust.  Furthermore, as I noted, I have never, ever, seen a couple with a prenup who did not, ultimately, divorce.

The 50% figure for divorce is misleading.  It is calculated by taking the total number of marriages, and the total number of divorces, recorded in a country in a year.  But it does not account for second or third marriages, which have a higher divorce rate than do first marriages, nor common law relationships. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/health/19divo.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/health/19divo.html?_r=0)


I believe you overstate the powers of the courts, and damages suffered by men.  In most North American jurisdictions, any property a man brings into a marriage is his when he leaves.  What is not, pursuant to legislation, is the increase in value of that property.  There is little "screwing" of men in division of assets, generally.  Where men are often treated unfairly is when children are involved.  Typically, a man is the higher income earner, so he will pay a large amount of maintenance for the children.  He will often lose his home to his wife and children, and, if his wife was at home, he often will pay alimony to her until she can retrain to work, often, even longer.  Most of that would be fine, however, often, men's custody rights have been blatantly disregarded by women, in the past, with no consequences to mothers for defying court orders.  That is beginning to change.

Today, I asked my better half what he thinks about prenuptial agreements.  He said he does not care how others choose to live their lives, but to him, it turns a marriage into a business transaction.  It commodifies something that is sacred.

I have to say, I never looked at it this way, but that is, I think, an accurate analysis.  In fact, some prenups include provisions for a woman's weight, how often the couple will have sex (at a minimum), what happens if the man does not provide sufficient income for vacations, if he is not earning $X annually, and so on.   Why not just turn the whole exercise into one of contractual obligation, based on each party's expectation going into a marriage, with the same types of consequences for breaches (pecuniary damages)?  It would make life a lot easier than having to negotiate problems and eventually giving up, would it not? 






Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 14, 2013, 08:44:16 PM
I believe you overstate the powers of the courts, and damages suffered by men.  In most North American jurisdictions, any property a man brings into a marriage is his when he leaves. 

This is not true for one case I know of.

The man had inherited a small fortune before marriage.  He never co-mingled this money and in fact never touched it (spent it) at all as he and his wife both had good incomes from the very beginning of their marriage. 

He was intending to set up trusts, etc., so he could pass it on to future grandchildren and do some generation skipping with regard to taxes, but never got around to it.

At divorce proceedings, the judge acknowledged that was separate property of the man but, in view of this large sum . . .

He gave about 90% of the wealth accumulated during the marriage to the wife.

This had the same effect as splitting the accumulated wealth 50/50 and then giving the wife a portion the the man's pre-marriage assets.

Thus, in theory and even looking at specific wording in divorce decrees, it can be made to look like the pre-marriage assets stay separate; while in fact the monetary value of these assets is shared.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 14, 2013, 08:47:57 PM
That is why appellate courts exist.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 14, 2013, 09:21:26 PM
That is why appellate courts exist.

The same jackasses exist in the appelate courts and the supreme courts.  It's simply a ladder they climb to get there.  They take their prejudices with them.  Where did  the revisionists come from?  Someone that could not read the original documents (law)?        ;D

BTW few people have the funds to appeal court rulings and verdicts.  Appellate lawyers are extremely expensive.   I know this from personal experience.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 14, 2013, 09:24:57 PM

The man had inherited a small fortune before marriage.  He never co-mingled this money and in fact never touched it (spent it) at all as he and his wife both had good incomes from the very beginning of their marriage. 

He was intending to set up trusts, etc., so he could pass it on to future grandchildren and do some generation skipping with regard to taxes, but never got around to it.

At divorce proceedings, the judge acknowledged that was separate property of the man but, in view of this large sum . . .

He gave about 90% of the wealth accumulated during the marriage to the wife.



Family court judges are allowed a lot of discretion on their rulings. Stuff like this, maybe not to a large degree as this,  happens more often than not.



That is why appellate courts exist.


Maybe that's hope for Canadians that don't agree with a judge but that is not hope here. A person on death row may have a 15% to get his case in appellate court. What chance do you think a person unhappy with the ruling at divorce trial is going to have for an appeal? Appellate court don't have time to listen to everybody and they give precedence to those who's lives could be lost in prison for life.


Also if a person by chance gets heard by appellate court and wins an appeal, that is no reason to celebrate. The appellate court will state why they thought the judge at divorce trial is wrong and send the case right back to the same judge who made the erroneous ruling to make modifications. The same judge who screwed a person over and now embarrassed by higher level judges, may make only slight adjustments to his/her previous decision.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 14, 2013, 09:28:31 PM
The same jackasses exist in the appelate courts and the supreme courts.  It's simply a ladder they climb to get there.  They take their prejudices with them.  Where did  the revisionists come from?  Someone that could not read the original documents (law)?        ;D

BTW few people have the funds to appeal court rulings and verdicts.  Appellate lawyers are extremely expensive.   I know this from personal experience.


Judges are human, and make human errors.  I don't know if family court judges in the US are elected or appointed.  I do know that in Canada, where judges are appointed, and there is no political process in vetting judges, we have superior candidates sitting as justices.  Unlike the SCOTUS, there are no weak judges on Canada's Supreme Court.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 15, 2013, 03:46:17 AM

I think most of us are a little to old to believe in fairness.  However, I do not believe a relationship can endure over time without trust.  Furthermore, as I noted, I have never, ever, seen a couple with a prenup who did not, ultimately, divorce.

The 50% figure for divorce is misleading.  It is calculated by taking the total number of marriages, and the total number of divorces, recorded in a country in a year.  But it does not account for second or third marriages, which have a higher divorce rate than do first marriages, nor common law relationships. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/health/19divo.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/health/19divo.html?_r=0)


I believe you overstate the powers of the courts, and damages suffered by men.  In most North American jurisdictions, any property a man brings into a marriage is his when he leaves.  What is not, pursuant to legislation, is the increase in value of that property.  There is little "screwing" of men in division of assets, generally.  Where men are often treated unfairly is when children are involved.  Typically, a man is the higher income earner, so he will pay a large amount of maintenance for the children.  He will often lose his home to his wife and children, and, if his wife was at home, he often will pay alimony to her until she can retrain to work, often, even longer.  Most of that would be fine, however, often, men's custody rights have been blatantly disregarded by women, in the past, with no consequences to mothers for defying court orders.  That is beginning to change.

Today, I asked my better half what he thinks about prenuptial agreements.  He said he does not care how others choose to live their lives, but to him, it turns a marriage into a business transaction.  It commodifies something that is sacred.

I have to say, I never looked at it this way, but that is, I think, an accurate analysis.  In fact, some prenups include provisions for a woman's weight, how often the couple will have sex (at a minimum), what happens if the man does not provide sufficient income for vacations, if he is not earning $X annually, and so on.   Why not just turn the whole exercise into one of contractual obligation, based on each party's expectation going into a marriage, with the same types of consequences for breaches (pecuniary damages)?  It would make life a lot easier than having to negotiate problems and eventually giving up, would it not?
You are right the % of divorce is worse after the second or third marriage.

Tell me what is fair ?
Men's properties (prior marriage) give a substantial amout of money durint the marriage shared by both : ok no problem with that.
The increase of this properties has to be shared ? Why ? Why a guy who have 50000$ in stocks or a property for 200000 $ prior the marriage, if  the day of the divorce all have increased of 50%  why he has to shared 25 % of the net value ? And curiously if those assets decrease of 50% it has no consequence on what he has to pay ? Tell me in which manner the spouse is interacting which such assets ?

You believe that what was owned previous the marriage is protected. THis is the theory : in practice the reality is different because not only the net value of his previous assets are halved and it happens also and more often than you think that those assets are embedded in the community.

You notice yourself that the injustice is large when childrens are involved.

I don't know about the compenstory allowance in USA but her 15 % of male people pay one, which means that barely any guys earning above 3000 $ will have to pay one in case of divorce. So you have to add this also to the what the woman gets (in 97%).

And all of what had been bought by the couple, free of any consideration of who have put the maximum of money.

You ask my opinion on : "I have to say, I never looked at it this way, but that is, I think, an accurate analysis.  In fact, some prenups include provisions for a woman's weight, how often the couple will have sex (at a minimum), what happens if the man does not provide sufficient income for vacations, if he is not earning $X annually, and so on.   Why not just turn the whole exercise into one of contractual obligation, based on each party's expectation going into a marriage, with the same types of consequences for breaches (pecuniary damages)?  It would make life a lot easier than having to negotiate problems and eventually giving up, would it not?" for me this is shit : it only shows the failure of the actual system because the CONTRACTUALS OBLIGATIONS are mainly filled by MEN, and the women obligations are blank, the main parameters of the contract are not how many sex you should have, but who works, and how many childrens. There is nothing of this in the basic contract.

You continue to keep this same emotionnal tension aroung something which has no relation with trust or sacred.


It is like :
You  don't wear your belt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle but do know you that in the next 20 years you have 40% of chance to have a crash, and after the first crash your chances are 60% ?

What do you think of that ? Answer of some here :
You should  believe in God and trust him.

What God has to do with crashes ?
If you believe in God nothing will happen to you, if you don't believe in him you will have a crash.

But do you know that believers suffer statistically of the same proportion of crash ?
Answer : none

Would you advice your son to drive or ride without belt or helmet ?
Answer : none.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 15, 2013, 07:58:45 AM
You are right the % of divorce is worse after the second or third marriage.

Tell me what is fair ?
Men's properties (prior marriage) give a substantial amout of money durint the marriage shared by both : ok no problem with that.
The increase of this properties has to be shared ? Why ? Why a guy who have 50000$ in stocks or a property for 200000 $ prior the marriage, if  the day of the divorce all have increased of 50%  why he has to shared 25 % of the net value ? And curiously if those assets decrease of 50% it has no consequence on what he has to pay ? Tell me in which manner the spouse is interacting which such assets ?

Marriage is a partnership, ideally, for life, Presumably, a wife has brought something into that partnership.  Without getting into emotions, at a physical level, at least, she cooks.  She cleans.  She takes care of her husband.  Perhaps she even works.  Why shouldn't she get half of what a man has  earned when they were together?

Quote
You believe that what was owned previous the marriage is protected. THis is the theory : in practice the reality is different because not only the net value of his previous assets are halved and it happens also and more often than you think that those assets are embedded in the community.


No, you are not correct on this. and I can point you to lexisnexis, where you can read hundreds of cases to the contrary.  The situation ML described is an aberration. 

Quote
You notice yourself that the injustice is large when childrens are involved.


That injustice, though, is not usually about money.  It is about custody rights.

Quote
I don't know about the compenstory allowance in USA but her 15 % of male people pay one, which means that barely any guys earning above 3000 $ will have to pay one in case of divorce. So you have to add this also to the what the woman gets (in 97%).


I assume in most of those cases, what the woman is receiving is child support, not a division of assets.  Shouldn't men be obligated to look after their children?


Quote
for me this is shit : it only shows the failure of the actual system because the CONTRACTUALS OBLIGATIONS are mainly filled by MEN, and the women obligations are blank, the main parameters of the contract are not how many sex you should have, but who works, and how many childrens. There is nothing of this in the basic contract.

Why?  A weight gain is usually something required of the woman.  How often a couple has sex is a mutual obligation.   But, if a man is going to make contractual demands, shouldn't a woman have the same rights in terms of demands? 


The examples given were just that.  The contractual obligations negotiated would be that which each couple chooses.  However, the point was not to suggest all marital demands should be set to contract, but rather, to demonstrate the ridiculousness of conducting an emotional relationship in the same manner as you would to buy widgets.

Quote
You continue to keep this same emotionnal tension aroung something which has no relation with trust or sacred.


Really?  You don't believe a marriage is sacred?  In Christianity, it is a sacrament.  You don't believe a marriage requires trust?  Without trust, a marriage is nothing.


Quote
It is like :
You  don't wear your belt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle but do know you that in the next 20 years you have 40% of chance to have a crash, and after the first crash your chances are 60% ?

What do you think of that ? Answer of some here :
You should  believe in God and trust him.

What God has to do with crashes ?
If you believe in God nothing will happen to you, if you don't believe in him you will have a crash.

But do you know that believers suffer statistically of the same proportion of crash ?
Answer : none

Would you advice your son to drive or ride without belt or helmet ?
Answer : none.


This is a poor analogy, because it is based primarily on physical laws.  A successful marriage is not based on the physical, but on spiritual and emotional work and compatibility.   I can't put in the emotional work to ensure the driver in the next car will always pay attention at the wheel.  I can work on my relationship, though, to ensure that I don't need to give up half my "stuff", if that is what is important to me.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 15, 2013, 08:27:22 AM

What chance do you think a person unhappy with the ruling at divorce trial is going to have for an appeal? Appellate court don't have time to listen to everybody and they give precedence to those who's lives could be lost in prison for life.


Also if a person by chance gets heard by appellate court and wins an appeal, that is no reason to celebrate. The appellate court will state why they thought the judge at divorce trial is wrong and send the case right back to the same judge who made the erroneous ruling to make modifications. The same judge who screwed a person over and now embarrassed by higher level judges, may make only slight adjustments to his/her previous decision.

You must live in Fantasy Island. De Plane De Plane

You have the money, you can go back to court. Just find a better lawyer. Simple.

Also, I bet the majority of the cases where the woman keeps the house, is paid alimony and child maintenance is because the man wanted the little woman to stay home and spit out babies and never attain any marketable skills. Heavens forbid!! She would become a feminazi.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 15, 2013, 08:32:53 AM

This is a poor analogy, because it is based primarily on physical laws.  A successful marriage is not based on the physical, but on spiritual and emotional work and compatibility.   I can't put in the emotional work to ensure the driver in the next car will always pay attention at the wheel.  I can work on my relationship, though, to ensure that I don't need to give up half my "stuff", if that is what is important to me.

Boe, I mentioned it before. It is a matter of That bitch ain't getting any of my money.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 15, 2013, 09:20:26 AM
Boe, I mentioned it before. It is a matter of That bitch ain't getting any of my money.

Why do you speak about bitch Muzh ? May you explain ?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 15, 2013, 09:33:34 AM
 author=Boethius
Marriage is a partnership, ideally, for life, Presumably, a wife has brought something into that partnership.  Without getting into emotions, at a physical level, at least, she cooks.  She cleans.  She takes care of her husband.  Perhaps she even works.  Why shouldn't she get half of what a man has  earned when they were together?


It seems to be that you don't read what i write.
me : "Tell me what is fair ? Men's properties (prior marriage) give a substantial amout of money durint the marriage shared by both : ok no problem with that.
The increase of this properties has to be shared ? Why ? Why a guy who have 50000$ in stocks or a property for 200000 $ prior the marriage, if  the day of the divorce all have increased of 50%  why he has to shared 25 % of the net value ? And curiously if those assets decrease of 50% it has no consequence on what he has to pay ? Tell me in which manner the spouse is interacting which such assets ?



No, you are not correct on this. and I can point you to lexisnexis, where you can read hundreds of cases to the contrary.  The situation ML described is an aberration. 

I don't think that this is an aberration, notarius and forums report many cases like this.That injustice, though, is not usually about money.  It is about custody rights.me :You notice yourself that the injustice is large when childrens are involved."
THe injustice is more larger : explain me why, in case or alterned custody, the grid which used by court mentions that the man has to pay an alimony to the woman ?Explain me why anytime a woman can ask a DNA investigation to force any man to pay an alimony for a child from him?
But explain me why a man cannot ask a DNA investigation for a children he is not supposed to get from his spouse ? (betwen 5 and 8 % of childrens don't come from the official father).

Explain me why more than half rapes and more than 70 % or child abuse (the man is always put in police custody) are just blabla but the woman is almost never prosecuted for such lies ?


I assume in most of those cases, what the woman is receiving is child support, not a division of assets.  Shouldn't men be obligated to look after their children?

This has any relationship with childrens, it is about the difference in style life before and after the divorce. Explain me why 97 % of 15% of men pay a compensatory alimony whereas the difference in earning between men and women is less than 10% ? A law of last 2004 has modified hugely the landscape in favor of such compenstory alimony.

Why?  A weight gain is usually something required of the woman.  How often a couple has sex is a mutual obligation.   But, if a man is going to make contractual demands, shouldn't a woman have the same rights in terms of demands?  The examples given were just that.  The contractual obligations negotiated would be that which each couple chooses.  However, the point was not to suggest all marital demands should be set to contract, but rather, to demonstrate the ridiculousness of conducting an emotional relationship in the same manner as you would to buy widgets.

Absolutely prenups setting all about the daily on the paper are ridiculous, i do agree


Really?  You don't believe a marriage is sacred?  In Christianity, it is a sacrament.  You don't believe a marriage requires trust?  Without trust, a marriage is nothing.


The marriage is sacred TILL the divorce, we speak here about DIVORCE, not about the time when all is fine.AGAIN NO ANSWER TO THE LAST QUESTION:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You  don't wear your belt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle but do know you that in the next 20 years you have 40% of chance to have a crash, and after the first crash your chances are 60% ?

What do you think of that ? Answer of some here :
You should  believe in God and trust him.

What God has to do with crashes ?
If you believe in God nothing will happen to you, if you don't believe in him you will have a crash.

But do you know that believers suffer statistically of the same proportion of crash ?
Answer : "i am not affected because i have the power to let it not happen by my emotionnal work"

Would you advice your son to drive or ride without belt or helmet ?
Answer : Not yet answered.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 15, 2013, 11:29:15 AM
Why do you speak about bitch Muzh ? May you explain ?

LOL

Pat, I'm pretty sure many Americans know what I'm talking about.

Let's say it is a common phrase used in divorce court in the US.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 15, 2013, 11:31:50 AM
Why do you speak about bitch Muzh ? May you explain ?


Pat, you're asking a male feminist here.  The man is always wrong and the women are always victims.    Ignoring is the best use of your time.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 15, 2013, 11:42:11 AM
author=Boethius


I don't think that this is an aberration, notarius and forums report many cases like this.That injustice, though, is not usually about money.  It is about custody rights.me :You notice yourself that the injustice is large when childrens are involved."
THe injustice is more larger : explain me why, in case or alterned custody, the grid which used by court mentions that the man has to pay an alimony to the woman ?Explain me why anytime a woman can ask a DNA investigation to force any man to pay an alimony for a child from him?
But explain me why a man cannot ask a DNA investigation for a children he is not supposed to get from his spouse ? (betwen 5 and 8 % of childrens don't come from the official father).

Explain me why more than half rapes and more than 70 % or child abuse (the man is always put in police custody) are just blabla but the woman is almost never prosecuted for such lies ?



Boy, you guys have it tough in France.

If you are from "LivefromUkraine" school of thought where men are always the victims and the women are vicious bitches, then there is nothing to explain.

Now, let me ask you a question. Does the man (in France) makes less money that the woman doing the same job. Is the man a stay-at-home individual while his wife goes to work? Are the economies equal for men and women IN GENERAL?

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 15, 2013, 11:46:29 AM

Pat, you're asking a male feminist here.  The man is always wrong and the women are always victims.    Ignoring is the best use of your time.

+1
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 15, 2013, 11:50:06 AM

Pat, you're asking a male feminist here.  The man is always wrong and the women are always victims.    Ignoring is the best use of your time.

Obviously, all throughout modern history men has been exploited by evil bitches who all they do is incarcerate these poor defenseless men when the come home after an 18 hour work day and force them to cook and clean the house for the evil bitch.

Correct?

Excuse me.

Wah, wah, wah

I don't know what to think about you. Either you hate women or you are scared of them, or both.

I think it is both.

For clarification purposes, I'm not a male feminist.

I'm an educate human being that see humans as being all equals.

Women don't scare me. Men don't scare me either.

Pfft. Infeliz
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 15, 2013, 11:51:37 AM
+1

Hey Doug, why don't you relay your experiences here with your first fiance to the "real men" on how to treat a woman?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 15, 2013, 12:13:02 PM
Hey Doug, why don't you relay your experiences here with your first fiance to the "real men" on how to treat a woman?

It's  not worth the bandwidth.  Spending a ton of money on someone before fully understanding the culture and personalities is not wise.  It was a foolish mistake and a learning process.  At least we can learn from our mistakes.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 15, 2013, 12:18:39 PM
Obviously, all throughout modern history men has been exploited by evil bitches who all they do is incarcerate these poor defenseless men when the come home after an 18 hour work day and force them to cook and clean the house for the evil bitch.


I don't know what to think about you. Either you hate women or you are scared of them, or both.




Hmm... I must have touched on a nerve.  I am also not the person using derogatory terms to describe women, yet, I am accused of hating them.   Please show some respect and stop using such words.


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 15, 2013, 12:29:26 PM
The post, in context, was not disrespectful.  Far worse has been directed at posters here, often with little objection.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 15, 2013, 01:01:16 PM
It seems to be that you don't read what i write.
No, I read it.  I don't necessarily agree.
Quote
The increase of this properties has to be shared ? Why ? Why a guy who have
50000$ in stocks or a property for 200000 $ prior the marriage, if  the day
of the divorce all have increased of 50%  why he has to shared 25 % of the
net value ? And curiously if those assets decrease of 50% it has no consequence
on what he has to pay ? Tell me in which manner the spouse is interacting which
such assets ?
They were assets which increased in value during a partnership.  If they decrease that normally, at least in Canada, is also taken into account.


Quote
I don't think that this is an aberration, notarius
and forums report many cases like this.That injustice, though, is not usually
about money.  It is about custody rights.me :You notice yourself that the
injustice is large when childrens are involved."
Yes, but that injustice is not about money.  It is about a father's right to see his children without the mother interfering, or trying to poison her children against the father.
Quote
THe injustice is more larger : explain me why, in case or alterned custody, the
grid which used by court mentions that the man has to pay an alimony to the
woman ?Explain me why anytime a woman can ask a DNA investigation to force any
man to pay an alimony for a child from him?
I assume in most of those cases, what the woman is receiving is child support, not a division of assets.  Shouldn't men be obligated to look after their children?

In Canada, the amount of alimony to be paid is based on total salary.  It is prorated between the parents, based on how much time each has with the children.  This has been the case for more than a decade.  Parents who make so much money they are "off the grid" may pay more, depending on the lifestyle the children enjoyed before the divorce.A man who fathers a child should be required to pay for that child.  I have no issue with DNA tests to prove this.

Quote
But explain me why a man cannot ask a DNA investigation for a children he is not supposed to get from his spouse ? (betwen 5 and 8 % of childrens don't come from the official father).
Because in the case of a spouses, the spouse is presumed to be the father.  Furthermore, he stands in loco parentis, meaning, he may not be the biological father, but he is the father the children have known.  BTW, I disdain men who stand as fathers to stepchildren, or even to children who are not biologically theirs conceived in marriage, then drop them to move on to the next better deal when the marriage goes south.  These are is not, IMHO, the actions of a real man, and it says a lot about his character (or rather, lack thereof).  It is one of the reasons I think mothers need to look long and hard before remarrying.  I used to think they should not marry at all, but I/O's example changed my mind.  Of course, most men are not I/O. :)
Quote
Explain me why more than half rapes and more than 70 % or child abuse
(the man is always put in police custody) are just blabla but the woman is
almost never prosecuted for such lies ?
In North America, women are prosecuted for reporting false rape claims.  It is not even close to 70%, it is so miniscule that it can only be described as an aberration.  Keep in mind, an acquittal does not necessarily mean a rape did not occur.  It just means there is not sufficient evidence "beyond a reasonable doubt" to convict.  As for child abuse claims, women are "punished" in divorce cases for such reports, if false.  There are even cases of mothers jailed for defying court orders, and losing primary custody of the children.  These are known as "alienation" cases in Canada.  I know similar cases have been reported in some U.S. jurisdictions, but it more of a mixed bag in the U.S.
Quote
This has any relationship with childrens, it is about the difference in style life before and after the divorce. Explain me why 97 % of 15% of men pay a compensatory alimony whereas the difference in earning between men and women is less than 10% ? A law of last 2004 has modified hugely the landscape in favor of such compenstory alimony.

I'd be very surprised if there is only a 10% difference in salary between men and women anywhere outside, perhaps, the Nordic countries.  That certainly is not the case in North America.  Men are paying to ensure their children have as close to a similar lifestyle after divorce as they did before.  Typically, most of the burdens of childcare fall to mothers, not fathers.  Most women take more time out of the workforce to care for children than do men.  So, their salaries generally are lower.  That is why men are paying more.  It is CHILD support for a reason.

Quote
The marriage is sacred TILL the divorce, we speak here about DIVORCE, not about the time when all is fine.AGAIN NO ANSWER TO THE LAST QUESTION:

You  don't wear your belt in a car or a helmet on a
motorcycle but do know you that in the next 20 years you have 40% of chance to
have a crash, and after the first crash your chances are 60% ?

What do you think of that ? Answer of some here :You should  believe in God and
trust him.

What God has to do with crashes ?
If you believe in God
nothing will happen to you, if you don't believe in him you will have a
crash.

But do you know that believers suffer statistically of the same
proportion of crash ?
Answer : "i am not affected because i have the power to
let it not happen by my emotionnal work"

Would you advice your son to
drive or ride without belt or helmet ?
Answer : Not yet answered.

Au contraire, my friend.  I did answer the question.  But, I'll give some free advice.  Know the heart and soul of the person you are marrying.  Forgive everything.  Carry no grudges.  Remember, each day, how happy you were on your wedding day.  If you do these things, you will never need a prenup. :)
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 15, 2013, 01:07:21 PM

Hmm... I must have touched on a nerve.  I am also not the person using derogatory terms to describe women, yet, I am accused of hating them.   Please show some respect and stop using such words.

LOL
 
Who is using derrogatiry terms? I see you have identified with the example, because it was an example. Or did you notice the difference?
 
Let me hear the ladies say how I was disrespectful of them.
 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ade on March 15, 2013, 01:26:34 PM
Forgive everything.  Carry no grudges.  Remember each day, how happy you were on your wedding day.  If you do these things, you will never need a prenup. :)


 :)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 15, 2013, 03:17:01 PM
The post, in context, was not disrespectful.  Far worse has been directed at posters here, often with little objection.
the post is disrespectful, because for who defend a position of a protected contract it insinues that we (men) consider our girlfriends or wife as bitches. Which is disrespectful for them and for us.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 15, 2013, 03:22:10 PM
Boethius, i am pleased that you have detailled a little more the cases and what happen in your country. I imagine it is Canada. Each country needs a proper answer. Laws and case laws can have substantial differences.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 15, 2013, 03:27:45 PM
Boy, you guys have it tough in France.

If you are from "LivefromUkraine" school of thought where men are always the victims and the women are vicious bitches, then there is nothing to explain.

Now, let me ask you a question. Does the man (in France) makes less money that the woman doing the same job. Is the man a stay-at-home individual while his wife goes to work? Are the economies equal for men and women IN GENERAL?
Muzh i think that you don't really read my posts, twice i have explained that this difference, searchers cannot find any explanation for a difference of 9 %. To say it in an other manner they don't find explanation at the end to explain a 9 % of difference between men and women (same work duration, same degree, same skills ....).
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 15, 2013, 03:29:01 PM
the post is disrespectful, because for who defend a position of a protected contract it insinues that we (men) consider our girlfriends or wife as bitches. Which is disrespectful for them and for us.

Pat,
Don't expect the feminists (and men wearing panties) to make respectful comments.

Bo is an exception.  Due to her intellect and lawyer training, she can send the same message without the disrespectful languge.  She is very skilled at arguing, whatever side she chooses to take.   ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 15, 2013, 03:36:36 PM
+1

Yes i quit this topic, it is the best to do now.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 15, 2013, 03:49:28 PM
You must live in Fantasy Island. De Plane De Plane

You have the money, you can go back to court. Just find a better lawyer. Simple.



You don't seem to understand how appellate court works. They aren't going to take a case just because a high price lawyer is representing a recent divorcee who's feelings are hurt. 


First an attorney must prove the judge made an erroneous decision or there was misconduct during the trial. A better attorney may be able to discover a reason for an appeal over an inexperienced attorney but there is no guarantee an erroneous decision or misconduct will even be discovered. Appellate courts can't take every valid case in front of them and choose based off those who's lives are most affected , not based off the quality or cost of attorney's making the appeal.


I can't help you understand unless you're willing to help yourself. I suggest you talk to an attorney who specialize in appellate work about this subject and come back and let me know who's living in fantasy land.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 15, 2013, 05:31:04 PM
[color=blackKnow the heart and soul of the person you are marrying.  Forgive everything.  Carry no grudges.  Remember, each day, how happy you were on your wedding day.  If you do these things, you will never need a prenup. :) [/color]

This is the silliest post you have made in a while.
1.  Most people going into a marriage feel that they know the heart and soul of their spouse or they would not marry them.
2.  "Forgive everything.  Carry no grudges.  Remember, each day, how happy you were on your wedding day."  I agree this is how both spouses should feel about the other and is often expressed throughout the marriage.  It only works if BOTH spouses continue to feel this way upon entering a divorce.

Your 'dream scenario' does not seem to work in real life.  You also do not account for either party developing animosity toward the other and bitterness develops.  In many if not most cases in the US,  divorce is a confrontational process.  The divorce lawyers make a killing by getting one or both parties angry and bitter toward each other.  Your dream scenario seems to end at the courthouse steps.   ;D

I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to have experienced both types of divorce.  First wife of 22 years turned into a feminist, man hating, bitch.  Her only objective was to destroy everything I had worked to accumulate.  Her sleazebag lawyer accomplished her objectives.   Neither of us got anything significant from the $250K estate.  The lawyers, rent-a-shrinks (paid experts), a minority stockholder in my corporation, all managed to steal the estate.

BTW, the fight in court which lasted over 3 years was not about money.   It was my fight for joint custody of our daughter.  At the time, the joint custody statute had just passed in California and nearly all the judges in family court were used to granting children to the mother.  They carried their prejudices on for many years before change finally came.  Early in the proceedings my wife made me an offer.  If I would agree to give her full custody of our daughter, I can keep my corporation, helicopter, airplane and other toys.  All she wanted was complete custody and control of my daughter and our residence (which was nothing special).  I refused!  And so went on the fight for over 3 years. 

We had bifurcated the custody and property issues so we were technically divorced and only the custody and property issues remained.  About 3 years into the proceedings she got cancer and died while she was still fighting for sole custody.  Needless to say.... I became a believer in Karma.

To give you an example of sleazebag lawyers let me give this example.....
When I learned (the last one to know) of her terminal illness,  I  was concerned about her stress and the possible affect on our daughter.  I went to her church (4 Square Fundamentalist) and spoke to her minister about him facilitating a peace treaty between us so that my wife could enjoy her remaining time with our daughter without worrying about the court battles or my visitation.  The minister refused and rebuffed my request.  It was apparent that she had already told so many lies to them, that any help from them would be fruitless.

I then went to her attorney after one of our court days and made a deal that we shook hands on at the courthouse steps (a painfull lesson.  don't ever believe a lawyer).  I agreed to suspend visitation and court proceedings so that my now ex-wife could enjoy our daughter as much as possible.  His part of the agreement was to notify me immediately upon her death, have my daughter ready for pickup as soon as I could get there, and to NOT represent anyone that would be challenging me for custody of my daughter.  My wife had previously indicated that she wanted her sister to have my daughter.  I was naive enough to think an agreement with a lawyer was to be honored.  My stupid!

My work had transferred me to Southern California.  I honored the agreement.  On a Monday morning I received an anonymous phone call at work.  The only thing that was said was "It happened".  To this day I don't know who made the call.  I suspect it was either a friend or someone neutral.  I immediately called her lawyer to inquire about her status.  Before I even asked, he announced that she had passed away on Saturday and he was getting ready to call me.  I told him to have my daughter ready for my pickup and I would be leaving work immediately.  He then dropped the bombshell that my sister-in-law wanted my daughter and I was not permitted to attend her funeral.

I hung up and immediately begin the 4 hour drive to my former home.   I went to the lawyers office first to find out where my daughter was.  I was told the lawyer was in court.  I went through the entire court and spoke with every judge (whom I by now knew all of them). 
The lawyer had not been seen since morning court.  I went back to the attorney office and a secretary told me Mr.XXXX suggested that you read this......

It was an exparte order from the court granting temporary custody of my daughter to my sister-in-law.  Exparte orders are emergency orders that a judge makes when it is impossible for the other litigant to be in court, or when someone is facing a physical threat.  They are not taken lightly and very often are refused when the other party cannot be present.

Upon reading the order, I discovered the attorney lied in his application for the order.  He stated the reason for the exparte order was because he had no knowledge about my whereabouts and could not be reached by phone.   The bastard had just talked to me on the phone and my whereabouts were clearly en route to the lawyers office.  People wonder why we think of lawyers as scumbags!

To shorten the story,  there were several more months of fighting the sister-in-law and the lawyer in court for custody of my daughter.  BTW, during the whole divorce process and subsequent custody batter, there was never any mention or claims that I was an unfit father.  In fact it was the opposite.

The night I was stranded without my daughter, I contacted another man that was fighting the same lawyer for custody of his daughter.  He gave me the name of a woman lawyer that hates how men are screwed over by the local judges.  With tears in my eyes, I met her at her office at about 7 p.m. in a nearby city.  She was outraged that the judge made such a ruling without the presence of the other party.  She was sure it was a mistake.  She called the judge and explained the situation suggesting that a mistake had been made and I had driven 4 hours to pick up my daughter.  The judge was annoyed that she had called him at dinnertime and he hung up the phone on her.   Somehow, I can imagine the same response from Bo.  lol   She immediately took my case.  She had fire in her eyes.  She asked me to return the next morning and we would develop a strategy.   I also learned that she had won a landmark case in the US Supreme Court and was normally litigating women's cases for wrongful termination, etc.  At least I had not found a slouch for an attorney, even if our politics were different.

I arrived at her office the next morning.  She was still so pissed at the judge I was surprised she could think clearly.  Three of us sat down to develop a plan.  Patricia (the attorney), her secretary and myself.  Patricia did all the legal thinking,  she taught me how to do legal research of case law (shephard cases sp?) and the secretary typed as she gave her the data.
We worked from that morning around the clock until 6:30 the next morning with only one lunch break at a local restaurant.

At 6:30 in the morning, we had Writ of Habeas Corpus (about an inch thick) and a Writ of Prohibition, Mandate, and Review (another inch thick) ready for the appellate court.  I was so happy with the lawyer I wanted to kiss her or marry her.   LOL

On my return to Southern California, I stopped by the appellate court in Ventura and filed the briefs.  Don't remember for sure, but I might have stopped by the judges office and left copies for the judge.

Patricia had ripped the judge a new asshole (in legal terms of course).  He was now exposed to his peers on the appellate court and possibly to other statewide judges as well.   The appellate court did not need to respond.  The judge, upon reading that his dirty tricks were exposed, called an immediate hearing and reversed his decision.  Prior to reading his revised decision, both Patricia and I thought we would both spend some time in jail.  This guy was LIVID!

So, Bo you can see why your merry little tale about being nice to each other throughout marriage often does not matter when you get to divorce court.  I like your fantasy, just wish real life worked that way.

To your credit, it sometimes does.  My second divorce was very friendly.  We both agreed to not involve any scumbag attorneys, files our own divorce including property settlement and even dated frequently over many years.   We still have an affection and respect for each other.

The lesson is that you never know what kind of person you will face when it comes time for divorce, regardless of the best intentions and behavior during the marriage.  It takes two to Tango.      ;D


BTW:  This lawyer is now a Superior Court Judge!   Good example of how the scumbags climb the ladder to eventually become Supreme Court Judges.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 15, 2013, 06:12:27 PM
Well, cal, I have 29 years of marriage using those criteria.  When you reach that milestone, you can come back and tell me how silly it was.


How can posters here, most of whom cannot even communicate effectively, initially, with their intended, know their heart and mind?


No offense to you, but your wife did not automatically turn into a feminist who wanted to destroy you.  From my observation, and having had discussions with both many divorce lawyers and divorced women, in the absence of mental illness, a woman usually seeks divorce when she just gets tired of putting up with her husband's  cr@p and believes she has done everything to salvage her marriage.   It is also my observation that once that decision is made, a woman rarely changes her mind.  Some put up with it until the kids are grown.


Were your late ex wife to post here, I am certain she would have a very different interpretation of the events surrounding your separation and divorce.  Not to suggest yours is wrong, but there are always two sides to a story, and the truth tends to lie somewhere in between, leaning one way or the other, to different degrees, on different issues.    Custody, unfortunately, is usually the issue where spouses tend to go for the jugular, to the detriment of the children, and it is either  a way to "get back" at the spouse, or because that party believes, subjectively of course, that the other parent cannot possibly give anything of use to the child. 


In my province, mediation is mandatory before divorce.  Since it's been introduced, custody disputes generally have dropped, though they still, of course, occur.


As for a lawyer lying, again, where I live, any complaint against a lawyer is investigated by the law society.  If it were proven that a lawyer lied to a judge and that action was intentional, the lawyer would be disbarred.  Lawyers here are disbarred for lying to clients, and lying to a judge would be considered far more serious.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 15, 2013, 07:06:50 PM
No offense to you, but your wife did not automatically turn into a feminist who wanted to destroy you.  From my observation, and having had discussions with both many divorce lawyers and divorced women, in the absence of mental illness, a woman usually seeks divorce when she just gets tired of putting up with her husband's  cr@p and believes she has done everything to salvage her marriage.   It is also my observation that once that decision is made, a woman rarely changes her mind.  Some put up with it until the kids are grown.

Well, no offense but the examples you have given have nothing to do with my ex wife's decision to get a divorce.  Since you are inferring something that you have no personal knowledge about, I will help you out.

She worked in an office of over 20 mostly single, feminist women.  I know this from conversations with them as well as comments from my wife before the divorce.  She was subjected to a constant barrage of feminist speak ( you don't  need a man for anything, men are evil, you should be strong and independent, etc.).  We often went to office parties as well as saw them when out dancing together.  They are the same women that would sleep with any man for some kind of benefit.  Even pretend to like someone to get free drinks and then wander away.  I am sure you understand the kind of women I am talking about.

The company she worked for had grown over the years and the owners decided it was time to create a new position to oversee all the gals working in the office.  The owners hired a MAN from Los Angeles that had a lot of experience with office workers to take over as manager.  Not only did the shit hit the fan in our relationship, but the other women in the office were in an uproar.  Bickering went on daily at her office.  Since she was one of the more senior employees she thought she was 'entitled' to the position even though she had no experience in managing people.

It finally reached a point where she came home from work and announced that she is not cooking for any man, she furthermore is not washing any mans clothes, etc.  She also let the housekeeping deteriorate to the point of it stinking from dirty dishes and rotting garbage for days on end.

You might ask, why did I not do the housework, cooking, and cleaning myself?  Because I was working 90 hrs/week in our business which was necessary at the time for it's survival.  In addition, she had made the environment so hostile it was better to back away from it rather than take the abuse.

There were many other clues that the source of her problem was not me.  Shortly after her 10th anniversary at work, she got fired for insubordination by the new manager.  That's about the same time the shit hit the fan in the relationship.  She was not going to be dominated by any man, at work or at home!  I never had the time or inclination to dominate her.  To me it was clearly something external that created the personality change.

You can continue to try and rationalize someone else's behavior to fit your agenda, but it often is meaningless.


Custody, unfortunately, is usually the issue where spouses tend to go for the jugular, to the detriment of the children, and it is either  a way to "get back" at the spouse,

Yes and I expect that you would rationalize and defend the woman's point of view even in those cases.

In my province, mediation is mandatory before divorce.  Since it's been introduced, custody disputes generally have dropped, though they still, of course, occur.

Yes, it was mandatory in our case also.  After the first meeting whereby the woman mediator tried to apply some rational suggestions, my wife refused to attend any more meetings.  Her attorney simply explained to the court that any further meetings would produce no results.



As for a lawyer lying, again, where I live, any complaint against a lawyer is investigated by the law society.  If it were proven that a lawyer lied to a judge and that action was intentional, the lawyer would be disbarred.  Lawyers here are disbarred for lying to clients, and lying to a judge would be considered far more serious.

In the US filing a complaint with the State Bar is a joke.  It has the wolves guarding the hen house.  LOL
Also, the Judicial Council is just as big a farce for the same reason.  I was once told that the only way to get the Bar or Judicial Council to act against a lawyer or judge, is if they do  something that would embarrass the institutions publicly.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 15, 2013, 07:16:25 PM

You might ask, why did I not do the housework, cooking, and cleaning myself?  Because I was working 90 hrs/week in our business which was necessary at the time for it's survival. 
If you worked so hard as to not being able to contribute in any way to the housework and I assume to taking care of your daughter, how were you going to take care of your child 50% of the time? Just curious, what was the plan?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Larry1 on March 15, 2013, 07:30:33 PM
Quote
From my observation, and having had discussions with both many divorce lawyers and divorced women, in the absence of mental illness, a woman usually seeks divorce when she just gets tired of putting up with her husband's  cr@p and believes she has done everything to salvage her marriage.

In other words, nearly every woman who wants a divorce is in the right and her husband is in the wrong.  I'm happy you have finally made yourself clear. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 15, 2013, 09:37:55 PM
If you worked so hard as to not being able to contribute in any way to the housework and I assume to taking care of your daughter, how were you going to take care of your child 50% of the time? Just curious, what was the plan?

If I had ever reached that point,  I obviously would have had to make changes to take care of her in the evenings when I worked.

Having my own business allowed me to take care of her needs during the day.  She was in pre-school and I often went there during the day and volunteered as one of the parental playground monitors.  I also took her to and from swimming lessons.  It was fairly easy to get away for brief periods.

There were several women interested in taking care of her after dinner in the evenings (either live-in or seperate).  I was always with her at dinnertime prior to going back to work.

To give you another perspective of my wifes behavior and jealousy..... here are two more examples.
1.  Out of love for me, my daughter would bring me a glass of orange juice in the morning while I was waking up.  Her mother was outraged and told her to stop doing it.
2.  Out of love for daddy, when I would come home for dinner and see my daughter, she would bring me the newspaper.  Her mothers response was "Our daughter is not a dog.  Get your own paper".

I would expect you to keep searching to find fault with me.  It seems you cannot accept that there are some evil women that men are justified divorcing.   Don't forget Karma.      ;D

In fact once I gained custody, I did what I had to do to raise my daughter.
I made an album for you to puruse and see for yourself what her life was like.  I don't think this looks like an unhappy little girl.   All photos were taken when I was raising her alone.

http://s1143.beta.photobucket.com/user/calmissile/library/Michelle

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 15, 2013, 10:45:54 PM
In other words, nearly every woman who wants a divorce is in the right and her husband is in the wrong.  I'm happy you have finally made yourself clear.


That is not what I posted.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 15, 2013, 11:22:25 PM
No offense to you, but your wife did not automatically turn into a feminist who wanted to destroy you.  From my observation, and having had discussions with both many divorce lawyers and divorced women, in the absence of mental illness, a woman usually seeks divorce when she just gets tired of putting up with her husband's  cr@p and believes she has done everything to salvage her marriage.   It is also my observation that once that decision is made, a woman rarely changes her mind.  Some put up with it until the kids are grown.

Well, no offense but the examples you have given have nothing to do with my ex wife's decision to get a divorce.  Since you are inferring something that you have no personal knowledge about, I will help you out.

She worked in an office of over 20 mostly single, feminist women.  I know this from conversations with them as well as comments from my wife before the divorce.  She was subjected to a constant barrage of feminist speak ( you don't  need a man for anything, men are evil, you should be strong and independent, etc.).  We often went to office parties as well as saw them when out dancing together.  They are the same women that would sleep with any man for some kind of benefit.  Even pretend to like someone to get free drinks and then wander away.  I am sure you understand the kind of women I am talking about.

The company she worked for had grown over the years and the owners decided it was time to create a new position to oversee all the gals working in the office.  The owners hired a MAN from Los Angeles that had a lot of experience with office workers to take over as manager.  Not only did the shit hit the fan in our relationship, but the other women in the office were in an uproar.  Bickering went on daily at her office.  Since she was one of the more senior employees she thought she was 'entitled' to the position even though she had no experience in managing people.

It finally reached a point where she came home from work and announced that she is not cooking for any man, she furthermore is not washing any mans clothes, etc.  She also let the housekeeping deteriorate to the point of it stinking from dirty dishes and rotting garbage for days on end.

You might ask, why did I not do the housework, cooking, and cleaning myself?  Because I was working 90 hrs/week in our business which was necessary at the time for it's survival.  In addition, she had made the environment so hostile it was better to back away from it rather than take the abuse.

There were many other clues that the source of her problem was not me.  Shortly after her 10th anniversary at work, she got fired for insubordination by the new manager.  That's about the same time the shit hit the fan in the relationship.  She was not going to be dominated by any man, at work or at home!  I never had the time or inclination to dominate her.  To me it was clearly something external that created the personality change.

You can continue to try and rationalize someone else's behavior to fit your agenda, but it often is meaningless.


The point of my post was not to rationalize behaviour, nor to speculate on the reasons for your divorce.  However, it is odd, is it not, that almost every man here who is divorced was not at fault?  No sirree, it was always the fault, in its entirety, of his ex wife.    The point of my post was, and is, that divorces are never one sided.  There is plenty of blame to go around, on both sides.  Explaining how a woman thinks when she makes the decision to divorce is not a rationalization.  Just a reality of how women think.


I suspect if your wife were giving her side of the story, it would be something like this - he doesn't appreciate me, I work and then have to come home and do all the housework, he is never home for me or our daughter, etc.  To all who misread my posts - please note, I am not saying this was the reason for cal's divorce, as I have no knowledge of the reasons.  I am merely stating that this is the "typical" type of response, based on my experience, I expect I would hear. 

As I posted previously, I have heard the above many times from wives divorcing businessmen who, by virtue of their work, are not around much.  Some wives learn to cope on their own.  Some were always independent.  Some pop in to see their husband at lunch a few times a month.  Some decide to work in his business as well.  And some begin to resent him, and the time he is away from the family, and decide, at some point, that they will not live in a particular manner anymore.  It is a story I have witnessed so often as to be cliche.


Your description of the reasons for the failure of your marriage are your perceptions.  My point was that the other side will inevitably have different perceptions, and often, different reasons.  Were you able to agree, you likely would not be divorced.





Quote
Custody, unfortunately, is usually the issue where spouses tend to go for the jugular, to the detriment of the children, and it is either  a way to "get back" at the spouse,

Yes and I expect that you would rationalize and defend the woman's point of view even in those cases.


Where did I defend it?  No, I do not believe fathers are dispensable, and I also believe using children as weapons is wrong.  That doesn't mean I don't understand the dynamics of why it occurs.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 16, 2013, 01:01:40 AM
Bo, I concede!  You have worn me down again.  There is no sense trying to carry on an argument with a lawyer.  Your word twisting and addressing only parts of a response is typical and clever.

I had not even noticed until this morning that you diverted the flow of my responses and addressed only your chosen parts to respond it.  Good work.  I congratulate you on your lawyering skills.

As far as your comment that your husband is not a submisive man..........  Ha Ha!
You could talk and argue him into submision just to keep from listening to you any more.    ;D

As usual, I will give you the last word.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 16, 2013, 09:14:48 AM
it is odd, is it not, that almost every man here who is divorced was not at fault?  No sirree, it was always the fault, in its entirety, of his ex wife.   



Reread what Larry quoted. From your observation and discussions with divorce women you come to the conclusion women divorce men because they are tired of the men's crap. Why do you believe what divorced women have to say and don't believe what divorced men have to say? Do you have ambitions to be a family court judge? You may fit right in.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Daveman on March 16, 2013, 09:44:48 AM

Reread what Larry quoted. From your observation and discussions with divorce women you come to the conclusion women divorce men because they are tired of the men's crap. Why do you believe what divorced women have to say and don't believe what divorced men have to say? Do you have ambitions to be a family court judge? You may fit right in.


She didn't state that she sides with the women in the divorce proceedings, but rather that of those women who choose to initiate divorce, "tired of his crap" is a common theme (a common theme for the men as well, no? .. so perhaps "crap" is an ambiguous, non gender specific, yet fundamental principle of divorce.)  From what I gathered, her comments are related to the "two sides to every story" postulate... nothing more nor less.  I agree with that.







Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on March 16, 2013, 09:45:38 AM
You know?

Almost every FSUW that I interacted with claimed that one of the top priorities for her future husband was that he had a sense of humor.  And this board is supposed to be for entertainment.

SO, where is that sense of humor and when can I get some?  (A sense of humor, I mean.)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 16, 2013, 10:13:42 AM

Reread what Larry quoted. From your observation and discussions with divorce women you come to the conclusion women divorce men because they are tired of the men's crap. Why do you believe what divorced women have to say and don't believe what divorced men have to say? Do you have ambitions to be a family court judge? You may fit right in.

That is not what she said at all. Why is it difficult for you to believe that anyway? A woman gets tired of the mans crap and stays happily married? What she said was, there is his side, her side and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. She was also correct in stating that most all of the described divorces on this forum and those like it being told by the man is the always the woman's fault. Can you dispute that?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Misha on March 16, 2013, 10:16:56 AM

She didn't state that she sides with the women in the divorce proceedings, but rather that of those women who choose to initiate divorce, "tired of his crap" is a common theme


Aren't 90% or so of divorces in the United States now initiated by woman according to the stats?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 16, 2013, 10:33:44 AM
Bo, I concede!  You have worn me down again.  There is no sense trying to carry on an argument with a lawyer.  Your word twisting and addressing only parts of a response is typical and clever.

I had not even noticed until this morning that you diverted the flow of my responses and addressed only your chosen parts to respond it.  Good work.  I congratulate you on your lawyering skills.

As far as your comment that your husband is not a submisive man..........  Ha Ha!
You could talk and argue him into submision just to keep from listening to you any more.    ;D

As usual, I will give you the last word.

Was this the typical response to disagreement with your wife?


Really, cal, I was not attempting to pry into your marriage, which is why I largely ignored your explanation.  As for the comments on lawyers, what did you expect me to respond with?

The point is that in disagreement, individuals have their own perspectives or views.  If they wish to work productively, they will listen to the other side and try to understand that person's perspective.  Or, they can become entrenched in their own positions, which carries through all the way to divorce.  They may never understand the other's position.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on March 16, 2013, 10:55:48 AM
 Putting all the blame on one party, in a failed relationship,  is ignorant and accomplishes nothing.  People would be better off realizing their mistakes so they can fix it prior to getting into a new relationship.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 16, 2013, 01:04:40 PM

"tired of his crap" is a common theme (a common theme for the men as well, no? ..



Exactly.


Read again what Larry quoted. Boethius observation and after talking with attorneys and divorce women, in the absence of mental illness, a woman divorces her husband because she's tired of his crap and done everything to salvage the marriage.


Later she states it odd for all divorce men say it the woman's fault. Why is it odd? Boethius believes it counters the truth of what the women says.


Every family court judge hears the same thing from both sides in divorce court almost every time since an amicable divorce didn't happen. Hooefully they aren't bias


If it's true for one side, shouldn't it be true for the other? If it's odd for all divorced men to state their wife is bad, shouldn't it be odd for all divorced women to state their man is bad?


In the end it shouldn't matter if a person is at fault for a divorce. That should not matter in splitting their assets fairly. If a guy or gal is an azzhole and commited adultry, should the government come in and take all their possessions? I've worked with people who gave me crap. Whether or not in real life or marriage they are an angel or devil, they are entitled to everything they earned.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 16, 2013, 03:07:14 PM
Billy, your using way too much logic here.        ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on March 16, 2013, 04:15:57 PM
There is little logic in misrepresenting what I posted.  Daveman and Faux Pas read correctly.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 16, 2013, 04:55:43 PM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on March 16, 2013, 05:10:37 PM
Pat,
Don't expect the feminists (and men wearing panties) to make respectful comments.

Bo is an exception.  Due to her intellect and lawyer training, she can send the same message without the disrespectful languge.  She is very skilled at arguing, whatever side she chooses to take.   ;D


Nice to know you are so concerned about underwear. Let me ask you. Do you buy DependsTM where you are or do you bring them by the gross from the US?




Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: GQBlues on March 16, 2013, 09:36:43 PM
...http://s1143.beta.photobucket.com/user/calmissile/library/Michelle (http://s1143.beta.photobucket.com/user/calmissile/library/Michelle)

Holy Psyth Batman!

The dude's already got white hair back when the Brady Bunch was the No. 1 show and the Farrah Fawcett hairdo was happening hairstyle!

It's 2013 now and he's out looking for a 30-year old wife?!? LOL! He better file a pre-nup!

***packing KFC on your camping trip, man? TFF!****
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on March 16, 2013, 11:08:44 PM
.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ade on March 16, 2013, 11:36:33 PM
Calmissile,

I looked at your pictures.  They are beautiful.  They show the love you gave that daughter of yours.  You were given a great gift to be her father.  You will be a positive influence in anyone's life. 

It is a wonderful blessing to have a child.  I hope that everyone gets such an experience.

And yet, one still has to wonder why his wife hated him so to the point that even when terminally ill she would have preferred someone else to raise their daughter. Then there are the others we know about including his ex fiancée in Ukraine... I guess they all became raving fem-nazis overnight. From his drunken posts and other info, I'd say not...
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on March 17, 2013, 12:40:51 AM
.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 23, 2013, 02:39:37 AM
So, it has been more than a week since my last post.  I took some time to think through and reflect on this whole sordid affair. 

Candidly, I am still in touch with Ms. Istanbul.  She knows I am done playing into her situation and thus the relationship has cooled off.   So, in essence, it is fading fast because I am not going to sponsor her transition here based on her view of how it should go.  I am now moving on. 

Now comes the part where I need to understand something:  Just what is it that I should expect to do financially when I bring over an RW to the US?  After all, she won't have a job, (likely) won't have any assets and will be a foreigner in a foreign country. 

I would like to know just what the folks here have done as they met, moved and married their RW.  How do you take care of her financially? 

Again, I ask the above because in my past:  I have always been the 'breadwinner" in the family and the women I married did not have to work.  When I divorced, I followed the guidelines of the respective courts where assets were divided as community property.   

As a side note, I was just in Las Vegas last week and met with my best friend from childhood.  We talked about my situation.  He married an American woman almost 5 years ago.  They both work and she had little to no assets when they married.  When they were dating, he said he knew in a short time period that if he married her, he would be willing to put her name on his assets, thus giving her 50% share in what he owns.  She contributes to their household, they have a decent size 401K and she told me she married for his love, not his money.   Sounds simple enough to me. 

If you recall, Ms. Istanbul would have to shutter her business or try to run it in Turkey from the US.  As I understand it, she could not work in the US immediately.  (I would not want her to work for 6 to 12 months, anyway.)  Her main concern:  should I decide things are not working out, she would be 'left in the street.'  And my concern:  I am not interested in putting my assets at risk,  as I am not interested in losing 50% under any circumstances.  I am willing to support her through my income stream.  I am not willing to, nor will I buy an apartment/house/condo and put it into her name. 

For a minute, let's forget Ms. Istanbul and focus on someone else.  What security is appropriate, if any, should I move an RW to the US?  What kind of protection is the 'right thing to do?"  If I married an American woman, and should we divorce, she would have skills where she could obtain a job.  An RW does not have the ability to find work given language barriers, legal considerations, etc.  Isn't this correct? 

In the case of an RW, it is possible that I would be ordered by the court to pay temporary alimony while she searches for a job or considers a move back to her country. 

OK, so a pre-nuptial is key here.  Question is:  What amount is appropriate in a divorce settlement?  What would the courts do as they look at a RW who has nowhere to go?  I am just curious if anyone addressed this issue or dealt with this in a divorce?  (Not that I would want a divorce – been there, done that.  But one never knows.) 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: JayH on March 23, 2013, 03:10:40 AM
Paul - you are thinking backwards here .Put No1 priority on making yourself happy . Arrange a pre-nup that is FAIR to her in the circumstance she could find herself in. In that process you are doing yourself a favour.
All the rest is just side issue BS( yes-- in capitals)
Sharing your life costs-- and not only money-- so get on with it!!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 23, 2013, 03:38:48 AM
I came here 11 years ago with my younger son (he was 8 yo, now he is 19).
Did I understand how insecure I was? Not right away, but soon I did realize. I totally depended on my husband. Yes, our marriage got through some "bumps", the bumps are still there)).
  In case of divorce I was to live on my own, which is VERY hard in a foreign country (but possible).
I have almost no access to my husband's assets- he was and still is very  precautious   what comes to his money (if it is the right word).
 To be fair, in this situation he let me have my own account and didn't demand to contribute a lot in the "household".
I had to live with my "eyes open"))).
At some point we shared our saving account, also, I started saving for the child.
By now the boy (my son) is in USAF making decent money.
Am I still insecure? Yes, but not that bad.
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 23, 2013, 08:24:13 AM
Paul - you are thinking backwards here .Put No1 priority on making yourself happy . Arrange a pre-nup that is FAIR to her in the circumstance she could find herself in. In that process you are doing yourself a favor.
All the rest is just side issue BS( yes-- in capitals)
Sharing your life costs-- and not only money-- so get on with it!!

Jay, I am not sure if I am thinking backwards per se; maybe it is more that I am here thinking “out loud.”  My #1 priority IS to be happy.  What has happened here is that Ms. Istanbul has made our being together a tough road because she has created a precondition relative to wanting a kind of security that I never heard of - for her beloved to BUY her a piece of real estate for cash, in her name and before she considers anything else.  I would also have to be responsible for potentially picking up the loss of her income for whatever time period until she resituates in the US.  It is not a request or an idea to be discussed, it has become the focal point of moving the relationship forward.  It has caused our relationship to be 'stuck in the mud' so to speak. 

I agree with you, a pre-nuptial that is FAIR (as you wrote) to the potential circumstances she could find herself in is appropriate.  I think that IS fair.  It is based on doing what is right.  And it can be handled from my income stream for a period of time should the relationship end.  This makes perfect sense.  Will she go for it?  I tried explaining it to her and she is stuck on my transferring some of my assets to her as a pre-condition.  That will not happen. 

And yes, you and I are on the same page about sharing one's life costs.  I've done this all my life and feel quite comfortable with it.  Problem is that Ms. Istanbul had a difficult last relationship and because of her ‘distrust’ she wants her next man to pay the price for her ex-husband's financial failures.  His financial failures resulted in her having to support herself 100% and she feels very stressed about it.  She wants someone to come rescue her from her burden.  Is that a way to start and have a new relationship?  I don’t think so.  (She is also somewhat stuck in the past and often focuses on the good times –financially and otherwise - she had with her ex.  This in and of itself is not a healthy way to move forward.) 

Lastly, Ms. Istanbul has expectations that I should provide her with financial support NOW ($1,000 here, $1,000 there, $500 here, $500 there), while we are not even married.  Essentially that means I would support two households while we find a way to be together.  Now, I do not mind once in awhile helping someone I love, but to do so with regularity, plus pay the cost of her travel and mine, now that is a preposterous idea.   

So, with all of the above, I AM done and as I said, moving on.  I am going to take some time to regroup and will take the advice of several here and find my mate through the help of this forum. 

I came here to get a better understanding, not because I do not have my own answers, but because I wanted to learn what others think and do.  This forum has helped me get some serious clarity and I appreciate that.  Now, as time goes forward, I plan to be here and to be part of this forum, hopefully giving of my own experiences. 

Thanks for your thoughts Jay! 

Paul
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 23, 2013, 08:37:47 AM
I came here 11 years ago with my younger son (he was 8 yo, now he is 19). Did I understand how insecure I was? Not right away, but soon I did realize. I totally depended on my husband. Yes, our marriage got through some "bumps", the bumps are still there)).

In case of divorce I was to live on my own, which is VERY hard in a foreign country (but possible). I have almost no access to my husband's assets - he was and still is very precautious what (when it) comes to his money (if it is the right word).

To be fair, in this situation he let me have my own account and didn't demand to contribute a lot in the "household".  I had to live with my "eyes open"))).

At some point we shared our saving account, also, I started saving for the child. By now the boy (my son) is in USAF making decent money.

Am I still insecure? Yes, but not that bad.


Doll, did you come here on your own, before you met your husband?  As I read your post, it sent shivers down my spine.  I guess I am traditional and old fashioned in that I DO believe it is my obligation to support my beloved.  I have no problem with that. 

Before I make any comments about your situation, my own issue is that my situation has been created by Ms. Istanbul setting ‘preconditions’ to stepping foot into this relationship any further and into the US.  She has a ‘fairy tale’ idea about a white knight with a bank account rescuing her. 

As for your comments, if I bring my mate to this country I DO have an expectation of 1) taking on responsibility for her financial security in a reasonable way, 2) when (and if) we marry, anything we create together is community property.  My assets prior to marriage are, well…my assets.  Any assets we build together is ours together. 

Lastly, I would not want my beloved to feel any insecurity, and I would be reasonable in making sure she feels secure.   

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 23, 2013, 10:20:13 AM
Paulie:

1) Do not provide money to any woman or her family before a marriage; except for the money needed for wedding preparation and her transportation to be with you.

2) For a foreign woman; after marriage you will fully support her (but not her adult family) until she is able to add to the household support.

3) You should prepare a prenup that provides for support for her if the marriage terminates.  This support should be of the amount that gets her through the time period necessary to be able to fully support herself.  Check with Gator as he has experience with this.  This prenup  with specified support takes the place of such things as buying assets for the other party in their name only.

4) For any spouse that does not have a good paying job or adequate financial assets, the other spouse (or partner) should obtain a life insurance policy that will provide adequately for the surviving spouse.  Or, alternatively, the same can be accomplished by will or legal documents that give the surviving spouse a certain amount or percentage of the IRA and/or other retirement funds and/or real estate and other holdings.

Think about all of these things logically when you go about searching for a new gal.

Hardly anyone (except in the movies) deliberately chooses a mate who  they know to have a terminal disease.

The same should apply when you learn that the woman (man) has terminal financial problems.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on March 23, 2013, 10:42:53 AM
Paulie:

1) Do not provide money to any woman or her family before a marriage; except for the money needed for wedding preparation and her transportation to be with you.

2) For a foreign woman; after marriage you will fully support her (but not her adult family) until she is able to add to the household support.

3) You should prepare a prenup that provides for support for her if the marriage terminates.  This support should be of the amount that gets her through the time period necessary to be able to fully support herself.  Check with Gator as he has experience with this.  This prenup with specified support takes the place of such things as buying assets for the other party in their name only.

4) For any spouse that does not have a good paying job or adequate financial assets, the other spouse (or partner) should obtain a life insurance policy that will provide adequately for the surviving spouse.  Or, alternatively, the same can be accomplished by will or legal documents that give the surviving spouse a certain amount or percentage of the IRA and/or other retirement funds and/or real estate and other holdings.

Think about all of these things logically when you go about searching for a new gal.

Hardly anyone (except in the movies) deliberately chooses a mate who  they know to have a terminal disease.

The same should apply when you learn that the woman (man) has terminal financial problems.

ML,

Thank you for your advice, well put and well taken.  As for #1 – I get this and honestly I made a mistake and went over the line with Ms. Istanbul having given her money for her personal needs and paying for her daughter’s trip to NYC and Los Angeles.  #2) I DO expect to support and want to support my beloved, but will not support her family.  I am not the “Bank of Paulie.”  I did think that Ms. Istanbul would have had the intelligence to understand that it is appropriate for her to help with household support at some point.  We did talk about this and she did waiver back and forth, sometimes thinking that she ‘deserved to be taken care of.’  #3) I will check with Gator regarding a pre-nup.  In fact he contacted me and I plan to visit him when I am in his area next week. #4) I am on the same page as you and know this is the right thing to do. 

As for terminal financial issues, some people create this all on their own.  Ms. Istanbul made a decision to support he daughter’s college education (admirable if one can afford it) and feels responsible (and guilty) in wanting to support her mom.  These are her problems, not mine. 

Now that my Istanbul relationship is over, I am taking the time to reflect on my next steps.  I have been in touch with Eduard and we are talking about how he might be of help to me.  I appreciate your thoughtful input and your words of wisdom.

Best wishes,

Paul
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 23, 2013, 10:47:58 AM
I did not come on my own- J. paid for everything.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 23, 2013, 10:59:55 AM
Don't  take me wrong, Paulie, J. did send me money MONTHLY before we got married, he has been providing us (my son and I) since day one- he still is. I do not have any problems with food or clothing- no!
Every time I have to go to Russia he pays for everything!
No questions asked.
As for the major assets- he keeps it separately just the way you're going to do.
FYI- I have two adult steps (son and daughter)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: vwrw on March 23, 2013, 12:19:20 PM

As for #1 – I get this and honestly I made a mistake and went over the line with Ms. Istanbul having given her money for her personal needs and paying for her daughter’s trip to NYC and Los Angeles.


 #2) I DO expect to support and want to support my beloved, but will not support her family.  I am not the “Bank of Paulie.”  I did think that Ms. Istanbul would have had the intelligence to understand that it is appropriate for her to help with household support at some point.  We did talk about this and she did waiver back and forth, sometimes thinking that she ‘deserved to be taken care of.’




There are no general rules that would fit all situations. RW have different personalities, levels of English proficiency and sense of security that require different approaches.   


1. Premarital support.  I would not provide money to a woman before marriage with one exception.  If her English is limited and she agrees to quit her job to study English full time, then I would provide for her necessities so she could do that.


2. The family support. If you refuse to help her immediate family starting from the first day of your marriage, you can turn off many good women who helps their parents or children. For example, I lived with my mother before I married my husband. I was contributing  to our common budget with her. Regardless of how much I was charmed by my then fiancee, I would not leave her to survive on her own so I could find my happiness here NOR would I be happy here knowing she was going through tough time there.

Any man who would dare to suggest me that I should forget about helping her until I work myself in his country would be told to take a hike.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 23, 2013, 12:25:21 PM


In the case of an RW, it is possible that I would be ordered by the court to pay temporary alimony while she searches for a job or considers a move back to her country. 




Yes, of course. That's normal. If you're going to do a prenup, alimony issues should be in there. If it goes to court, a judge will find a divorced immigrant woman with English as her second language not very employable. You may have to pay more alimony with an immigrant woman than if you married an American woman.


Don't waste too much of your nerves worrying about divorce right now. You are a newly single man and you're a year or more away from getting into any marriage. For now enjoy the process of searching for a lady and courting her.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 23, 2013, 02:12:32 PM

There are no general rules that would fit all situations. RW have different personalities, levels of English proficiency and sense of security that require different approaches.   


1. Premarital support.  I would not provide money to a woman before marriage with one exception.  If her English is limited and she agrees to quit her job to study English full time, then I would provide for her necessities so she could do that.


2. The family support. If you refuse to help her immediate family starting from the first day of your marriage, you can turn off many good women who helps their parents or children. For example, I lived with my mother before I married my husband. I was contributing  to our common budget with her. Regardless of how much I was charmed by my then fiancee, I would not leave her to survive on her own so I could find my happiness here NOR would I be happy here knowing she was going through tough time there.

Any man who would dare to suggest me that I should forget about helping her until I work myself in his country would be told to take a hike.

Good point.
Premarital support : give her the money she needs anytime she is loosing some money BECAUSE she dates you. For example if she is not in vacation and had took days off you should give money  to compensate.
If she stops to work like vwrw, you should help her.

And you need to not forget her parents.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 23, 2013, 02:20:11 PM
Personally i think that Paulie is asking himself the right questions now. THis is very wise.
Some people want to tell him : forget this, enjoy your life, you will have time later.
I don't agree, i think he is doing the right thing at the right time : so he will have a clear picture of what
he needs to do when the right one will come. He will not have to fight against any anxiety. Better he will
be able to say the right things with the right knowledge and the right thinking, because he will have done all the deliberation prior.

This is something i did only very late in the FSU journey and IMHO i consider that Paulie here is doing a good job  ;) .
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 23, 2013, 03:30:34 PM

 
1. Premarital support.  I would not provide money to a woman before marriage with one exception.  If her English is limited and she agrees to quit her job to study English full time, then I would provide for her necessities so she could do that.


 
I still don't see anything wrong with "premarital support".
Why not?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 23, 2013, 03:59:53 PM
Good point.
 .
How is it "good"?  To not support your wife-to-be and support her mom?
I do understand the reasons of supporting "mom", but don't see why the man can't do it for his future wife?
I wrote it two hundred times: J. (my present husband), when we met the first time, asked "money" questions about how much I was making and how much it was to have a relatively decent living with 2 kids. He asked, I answered. I didn't ask for anything at all- never! He made his decision himself- actually provided my sons and me till we were here (and after))).
Why is it a no-no to send money to the woman whom you're going to marry (and then provide for her AND her mom)?
Again- in this regard my husband is a saint)))))
(Forgot to say- I spoke fluent English back then, so no "full time ELL"))))
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 23, 2013, 05:18:11 PM

For a minute, let's forget Ms. Istanbul and focus on someone else.  What security is appropriate, if any, should I move an RW to the US?  What kind of protection is the 'right thing to do?"  If I married an American woman, and should we divorce, she would have skills where she could obtain a job.  An RW does not have the ability to find work given language barriers, legal considerations, etc.  Isn't this correct? 

In the case of an RW, it is possible that I would be ordered by the court to pay temporary alimony while she searches for a job or considers a move back to her country. 

OK, so a pre-nuptial is key here.  Question is:  What amount is appropriate in a divorce settlement?  What would the courts do as they look at a RW who has nowhere to go?  I am just curious if anyone addressed this issue or dealt with this in a divorce?  (Not that I would want a divorce – been there, done that.  But one never knows.)
Good news: In case of a short marriage, lets say up to 2 years, it is highly unlikely that you will pay ANY kind of alimony to your ex-RW wife. Courts will not care what she is going to eat and whether she has somewhere to go. So, unless you are willing to support her until she finds a job/returns home - she would be "left in the street", exactly what your Ms. Istanbul fears. You can check your state laws as in what the length of marriage should be for the courts to grant alimony. It will probably be at least 5 years or more. The laws are the same for domestic and international marriages alike. Ask me how I know - read too many sad "divorce stories" on the RW forum. All this talk about cobra RWs who marry poor AMs and then divorce and rob them in court is an exaggeration. In 99% of the cases it is the woman who leaves the marriage with bare ass  ;)
Now, if you'd like to guarantee that you will help her out in case your short marriage desintegrates - write this out in a prenup. How much - it is between you and your conscience  ;D 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 23, 2013, 05:46:40 PM
In 99% of the cases it is the woman who leaves the marriage with bare ass  ;)

Nothing is allowed for her to wear as she exits the courthouse??

What is done with her clothes??  Perhaps given to women getting married in another area of the courthouse??
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 23, 2013, 05:59:27 PM
How is it "good"?  To not support your wife-to-be and support her mom?
I do understand the reasons of supporting "mom", but don't see why the man can't do it for his future wife?
I wrote it two hundred times: J. (my present husband), when we met the first time, asked "money" questions about how much I was making and how much it was to have a relatively decent living with 2 kids. He asked, I answered. I didn't ask for anything at all- never! He made his decision himself- actually provided my sons and me till we were here (and after))).
Why is it a no-no to send money to the woman whom you're going to marry (and then provide for her AND her mom)?
Again- in this regard my husband is a saint)))))
(Forgot to say- I spoke fluent English back then, so no "full time ELL"))))
First the woman you meet was having a life by her own before you meet her. She was not starving.
And those who were starving, or wrote in their profiles, "generous" guys wanted, i avoided.
If a girl is having a very poor salary i would like to help her but not permanently while she lives in FSU. But surely not from day one.
And i would advice any newbie to absolutely avoid to start a permanent montly alimony from day one, because it can twist the relationship not in favor of love.
As soon as you the lady is no longer capable to win her money it is time to help her montly, and mum too if necessary.

About what you said the first two or five years, there is a concern about this time in case of divorce, not in favor of the woman.
I agree that something should be write in a prenup.

I would like to know, do you have in America, USA (Doll do you live in USA ?) a compensatory alimony ?

 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 23, 2013, 06:07:18 PM


I would like to know, do you have in America, USA (Doll do you live in USA ?) a compensatory alimony ?
What is compensatory alimony and how is it different from regular alimony? Are there both kinds in France and when are they granted?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 23, 2013, 06:25:13 PM
Good news: In case of a short marriage, lets say up to 2 years, it is highly unlikely that you will pay ANY kind of alimony to your ex-RW wife. Courts will not care what she is going to eat and whether she has somewhere to go. So, unless you are willing to support her until she finds a job/returns home - she would be "left in the street", exactly what your Ms. Istanbul fears. You can check your state laws as in what the length of marriage should be for the courts to grant alimony. It will probably be at least 5 years or more. The laws are the same for domestic and international marriages alike. Ask me how I know - read too many sad "divorce stories" on the RW forum. All this talk about cobra RWs who marry poor AMs and then divorce and rob them in court is an exaggeration. In 99% of the cases it is the woman who leaves the marriage with bare ass  ;)
Now, if you'd like to guarantee that you will help her out in case your short marriage desintegrates - write this out in a prenup. How much - it is between you and your conscience  ;D
Addendum: Here is a quote from Wiki: looks like a marriage has to be 10 years or longer to talk about alimony in most cases:
"The determination of alimony varies greatly from country to country and from state to state within the U.S.[4] Some state statutes, including those of Texas, Montana, Kansas, Utah, Kentucky and Maine, give explicit guidelines to judges on the amount and/or duration of alimony. In Texas, Mississippi and Tennessee, for example, alimony is awarded only in cases of marriage or civil union of ten years or longer and the payments are limited to three years unless there are special, extenuating circumstances. Furthermore, the amount of spousal support is limited to the lesser of $2,500 per month or 40% of the payee's gross income.[20][21][22] In Delaware, spousal support is usually not awarded in marriages of less than 10 years.[20] In Kansas, alimony awards cannot exceed 121 months.[20] In Utah, the duration of alimony cannot exceed the length of the marriage.[20] In Maine, Mississippi, and Tennessee alimony is awarded in marriages or civil union of 10 to 20 years and the duration is half the length of the marriage barring extenuating circumstances.[20] Other states, including California, Nevada and New York, have relatively vague statutes which simply list the "factors" a judge should consider when determining alimony (see list of factors below).[20][23][24][25] In these states, the determination of duration and amount of alimony is left to the discretion of the family court judges who must consider case law in each state. In Mississippi, Texas and Tennessee, for example, there are 135 Appellate Cases in addition to 47 sections of State Statute that shape divorce law. As a result of these Appellate Cases, for example, Mississippi judges cannot order an end date to any alimony award. In 2012,Massachusetts signed into law comprehensive Alimony Reform.[26] This law sets limits on alimony and eliminates lifetime alimony.
In general, there are four types of alimony.[27]
Temporary Alimony: Support ordered when the parties are separated prior to divorce. Also called alimony pendente lite, which is Latin, meaning, "pending the suit".
Rehabilitative Alimony: Support given to a lesser-earning spouse for a period of time necessary to acquire work outside the home and become self-sufficient.
Permanent Alimony: Support paid to the lesser-earning spouse until the death of the payor, the death of the recipient, or the remarriage of the recipient.
Reimbursement Alimony: Support given as a reimbursement for expenses incurred by a spouse during the marriage (like educational expenses)."
 
 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 23, 2013, 07:30:23 PM
Good news: In case of a short marriage, lets say up to 2 years, it is highly unlikely that you will pay ANY kind of alimony to your ex-RW wife. Courts will not care what she is going to eat and whether she has somewhere to go.



Not true and the Wikipedia info you provided is pertaining to normal marriages. Judges have lots of discretion and if a RW is not employable, he will award alimony instead of throwing her  and her kids on the street. Not good if the judge has future ambitions of becoming a politician. If in any case a woman is thrown on the street, most likely welfare and food stamps on taxpayers dollars have to take care of her. Why when the guy who sponsored the woman signed an affidavit of support?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 23, 2013, 07:41:49 PM

Not true and the Wikipedia info you provided is pertaining to normal marriages. Judges have lots of discretion and if a RW is not employable, he will award alimony instead of throwing her  and her kids on the street. Not good if the judge has future ambitions of becoming a politician. If in any case a woman is thrown on the street, most likely welfare and food stamps on taxpayers dollars have to take care of her. Why when the guy who sponsored the woman signed an affidavit of support?
If the kids are involved the story might be a bit different but not necessarily. However, if not and a marriage is short - no alimony, "normal" marriages or not. 
Affidavits are rarely used and enforced. They "might" be, however if there is substantial welfare support for the woman withing the 10 (?) year of marriage, however the man will need to compensate the governmetn. For this, the US government will need to go for the man.
I don't know for sure how the system works, but there is probably not so much welfare support for a non-citizen, and in the cases we are talking about - these women will likely not be citizens.
Here is the general rule of thumb the first quote from Google. In  my years of reading the divorce stories on RW forums - I don't remember alimony granted for a short-term marriage.
 
Length of Marriage:
If a marriage is relatively short and there are no children, the courts often refuse to award alimony. If there are children under school age, however, the courts often award alimony to the spouse who is given physical custody (http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/maritalproblems/p/child_custody.htm).  Most courts feel that a child under school age is better served by having a full time parent at home.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 23, 2013, 08:33:28 PM
Nothing is allowed for her to wear as she exits the courthouse??

What is done with her clothes??  Perhaps given to women getting married in another area of the courthouse??
It's a Russian "figure of language" which means "nothing"
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 23, 2013, 08:37:37 PM
   I would like to know, do you have in America, USA (Doll do you live in USA ?) a compensatory alimony ?
I live in the USA. As for alimony, it is all "might"- very theoretically.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on March 24, 2013, 05:38:21 AM
Addendum: Here is a quote from Wiki: looks like a marriage has to be 10 years or longer to talk about alimony in most cases:
"The determination of alimony varies greatly from country to country and from state to state within the U.S.[4] Some state statutes, including those of Texas, Montana, Kansas, Utah, Kentucky and Maine, give explicit guidelines to judges on the amount and/or duration of alimony. In Texas, Mississippi and Tennessee, for example, alimony is awarded only in cases of marriage or civil union of ten years or longer and the payments are limited to three years unless there are special, extenuating circumstances. Furthermore, the amount of spousal support is limited to the lesser of $2,500 per month or 40% of the payee's gross income.[20][21][22] In Delaware, spousal support is usually not awarded in marriages of less than 10 years.[20] In Kansas, alimony awards cannot exceed 121 months.[20] In Utah, the duration of alimony cannot exceed the length of the marriage.[20] In Maine, Mississippi, and Tennessee alimony is awarded in marriages or civil union of 10 to 20 years and the duration is half the length of the marriage barring extenuating circumstances.[20] Other states, including California, Nevada and New York, have relatively vague statutes which simply list the "factors" a judge should consider when determining alimony (see list of factors below).[20][23][24][25] In these states, the determination of duration and amount of alimony is left to the discretion of the family court judges who must consider case law in each state. In Mississippi, Texas and Tennessee, for example, there are 135 Appellate Cases in addition to 47 sections of State Statute that shape divorce law. As a result of these Appellate Cases, for example, Mississippi judges cannot order an end date to any alimony award. In 2012,Massachusetts signed into law comprehensive Alimony Reform.[26] This law sets limits on alimony and eliminates lifetime alimony.
In general, there are four types of alimony.[27]
Temporary Alimony: Support ordered when the parties are separated prior to divorce. Also called alimony pendente lite, which is Latin, meaning, "pending the suit".
Rehabilitative Alimony: Support given to a lesser-earning spouse for a period of time necessary to acquire work outside the home and become self-sufficient.
Permanent Alimony: Support paid to the lesser-earning spouse until the death of the payor, the death of the recipient, or the remarriage of the recipient.
Reimbursement Alimony: Support given as a reimbursement for expenses incurred by a spouse during the marriage (like educational expenses)."

Thank you Pitbull, i would try to give you some details here of how does it work :
Temporary Alimony: Support ordered when the parties are separated prior to divorce. Also called alimony pendente lite, which is Latin, meaning, "pending the suit".
We have the same here. Typically if the lady is not working, till the divorce she will have such alimony.

We call it more maintenance allowance --> after the divorce generally men pay such maintenance allowance for children.  But in rare cases, a woman can benefit also after the divorce of such mainenance allowance (till her remarriage). Some children can have to pay for their parents also

Compensatory alimony : paid generally by men (15 % of divorced pay a compensatory alimony and 97% ot time they are men) to compensate the drop of the woman living standards after a divorce. Since 2005 it is paid in one time in a fee (there are some exception but this is the rule).
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2013, 05:49:36 AM
If the kids are involved the story might be a bit different but not necessarily. However, if not and a marriage is short - no alimony, "normal" marriages or not. 
Affidavits are rarely used and enforced. They "might" be, however if there is substantial welfare support for the woman withing the 10 (?) year of marriage, however the man will need to compensate the governmetn. For this, the US government will need to go for the man.
I don't know for sure how the system works, but there is probably not so much welfare support for a non-citizen, and in the cases we are talking about - these women will likely not be citizens.
Here is the general rule of thumb the first quote from Google. In  my years of reading the divorce stories on RW forums - I don't remember alimony granted for a short-term marriage.
 
Length of Marriage:
If a marriage is relatively short and there are no children, the courts often refuse to award alimony. If there are children under school age, however, the courts often award alimony to the spouse who is given physical custody (http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/maritalproblems/p/child_custody.htm).  Most courts feel that a child under school age is better served by having a full time parent at home.

Pit, that's not really true. Ironically enough, I know a RW who is going through a divorce from an AM right now. I have been very surprised by the amount of State support she has received. Make no mistake, she does need it. She left an abusive husband and took her two kids. One of the kids were his and hers the other was hers. She has received housing, legal help, food stamps and other stipends. The hubby is as useful as tits on a bull, a real piece of work. It's still difficult for her but, she is getting help. Of course that is just one case and probably isn't like this in other states.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 24, 2013, 06:25:50 AM
FP, help from the government and alimony from husband are not the same things.
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2013, 06:38:57 AM
FP, help from the government and alimony from husband are not the same things.

I am fully aware of that Doll  ;D I never said they were nor did I compare them. But, there is "help" and women don't necessarily leave or tossed in the street "bare-assed" either.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 24, 2013, 06:45:04 AM
Pit, that's not really true. Ironically enough, I know a RW who is going through a divorce from an AM right now. I have been very surprised by the amount of State support she has received. Make no mistake, she does need it. She left an abusive husband and took her two kids. One of the kids were his and hers the other was hers. She has received housing, legal help, food stamps and other stipends. The hubby is as useful as tits on a bull, a real piece of work. It's still difficult for her but, she is getting help. Of course that is just one case and probably isn't like this in other states.
Well, that's a totally different story - if it's an abuse story with kids involved, the amount of support is different than in case of a short marriage, without abuse or kids involved. States usually take care of the kids much better than able adults :)
Paulie doesn't strike me as a man looking to have more kids. Paulie fears that he will be ordered to pay alimony in case his marriage to an RW falls apart relatively soon. My point is, he shouldn't worry, it is very unlikely that he will have to pay anything. In this case, the risk is almost 100% on the RW
 
In fact, I would love to hear about a case where a non-disabled RW with no children gets alimony upon divorce after a short (up to 2 years), or any welfare support. The biggest issue in thos cases is for women to somehow get a permanent GC
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 24, 2013, 06:50:52 AM
Pit, that's not really true. Ironically enough, I know a RW who is going through a divorce from an AM right now. I have been very surprised by the amount of State support she has received. Make no mistake, she does need it. She left an abusive husband and took her two kids. One of the kids were his and hers the other was hers. She has received housing, legal help, food stamps and other stipends. The hubby is as useful as tits on a bull, a real piece of work. It's still difficult for her but, she is getting help. Of course that is just one case and probably isn't like this in other states.
I wonder if an Affidavit of Support will be enforced in this case and the man will have to pay back. Also, is the Affidavit just for Federal government or State as well? If just federal - then I'm not surprised it is rarely enforced, since all this help mostly comes from the state.
 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2013, 06:55:55 AM
Well, that's a totally different story - if it's an abuse story with kids involved, the amount of support is different than in case of a short marriage, without abuse or kids involved. States usually take care of the kids much better than able adults :)
Paulie doesn't strike me as a man looking to have more kids. Paulie fears that he will be ordered to pay alimony in case his marriage to an RW falls apart relatively soon. My point is, he shouldn't worry, it is very unlikely that he will have to pay anything. In this case, the risk is almost 100% on the RW

But that's the thing, if Ms. Turkey had came and married Paulie, moved to the US and divorced inside of a couple of years without a Prenup. Even if she didn't contribute to wealth, she would still be due a settlement of some sort. Most US courts would IMHO view it that way. How much or what would be determined by the circumstances of the divorce. Without she was just an evil bitch from hell and it could be proven, she would get something in proportion to her contribution and the size of his wealth. That's really the brass tacks isn't it?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 24, 2013, 06:59:25 AM
I am fully aware of that Doll  ;D I never said they were nor did I compare them. But, there is "help" and women don't necessarily leave or tossed in the street "bare-assed" either.
They are "tossed" by their husbands (thanks to the US Government they are not).
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2013, 07:09:04 AM
I wonder if an Affidavit of Support will be enforced in this case and the man will have to pay back. Also, is the Affidavit just for Federal government or State as well? If just federal - then I'm not surprised it is rarely enforced, since all this help mostly comes from the state.

It's too early to know. I suspect the AOS won't come into play. It should but, hasn't as far as I know even been mentioned. Their first court appearance for divorce proceedings is coming up this week, I think. He's a worthless POS. They together 5 years ago after she overstayed a tourist visa. Married over 2 years ago while she was pregnant. They got that worked out and she is currently on a 10 yr conditional GC, one of the conditions was that she be married (3 yrs I think). She's not going to make that but, she's in no danger of being deported. He may not have signed an AOS. They didn't do a K-1

It sounds hokey as I type it but the RW actually loved the guy, he wanted a maid and sex toy. She overstayed the tourist visa to be him. Sad story.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2013, 07:10:59 AM
They are "tossed" by their husbands (thanks to the US Government they are not).

So then maybe the bare-assed remark is a bit over dramatic?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 24, 2013, 07:24:28 AM
But that's the thing, if Ms. Turkey had came and married Paulie, moved to the US and divorced inside of a couple of years without a Prenup. Even if she didn't contribute to wealth, she would still be due a settlement of some sort. Most US courts would IMHO view it that way. How much or what would be determined by the circumstances of the divorce. Without she was just an evil bitch from hell and it could be proven, she would get something in proportion to her contribution and the size of his wealth. That's really the brass tacks isn't it?
I believe this would be exactly the opposite - she will not have any settlement or alimony, zip, nada. I've posted a link to US divorce laws. I haven't heard of a single case where it happened.  Furthermore, if she is unable to prove "marriage in good faith" and get he permanent gc on her own upon divorce- she will become an illegal and be potentially deported from the US. This is sad but true - those first couple years of marriage before the permanent GC a RW is really 100% at the mercy of an AM husband. And in many cases it get exceptionally ugly.
If anybody has an example that proves your IMHO - I would love to hear it  :D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2013, 07:33:45 AM
I believe this would be exactly the opposite - she will not have any settlement or alimony, zip, nada. I've posted a link to US divorce laws. I haven't heard of a single case where it happened.  Furthermore, if she is unable to prove "marriage in good faith" and get he permanent gc on her own upon divorce- she will become an illegal and be potentially deported from the US. This is sad but true - those first couple years of marriage before the permanent GC a RW is really 100% at the mercy of an AM husband. And in many cases it get exceptionally ugly.
If anybody has an example that proves your IMHO - I would love to hear it  :D


That is true in this case. He had her scared to death that he would get her deported and he'd keep the child. Despite that, she stayed with him and hoped he would change.

On the other point, even with how the laws are written, a judge is going to make the final determination and women by in large get far more consideration than the men. In that scenario, unless there were some extenuating circumstances, she'll get a settlement of some kind.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 24, 2013, 07:48:48 AM

If a marriage is relatively short and there are no children, the courts often refuse to award alimony.


Here's an article below that talks about some of the issues your wikipedia article talked about. Judges factor in if a spouse has financial hardships, not employable, and if they're currently getting an education. In the end they are allowed to use discretion, their own, not the laws, to factor in alimony. Most RW in a short marriage will qualify for all the above and most likely get alimony even if the marriage lasts one day. I married a Ukrainian woman I met in the states. She had a work permit, green card, and spoke good English and had previous work experience but was also taking college classes. I paid 6 months alimony for a 3 year marriage. I'm not only assuming what a website says, I'm speaking from experience. If an FSU woman speaks zero English and has no work permit, she would be getting a generous amount of alimony till she's able to support herself on her own even if the affidavit of support doesn't come into play.
 
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/financialissues/p/alimony2.htm (http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/financialissues/p/alimony2.htm)
 
Paulie should factor in alimony in a future prenup. It should cover all bases and be fair to his future wife to the point she would be happy to sign it. If he chooses to create the stereotypical prenup that the media wants up to believe is one sided, Paulie will learn his prenup will have less value than toilet paper.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 24, 2013, 07:51:51 AM

Here's an article below that talks about some of the issues your wikipedia article talked about. Judges factor in if a spouse has financial hardships, not employable, and if they're currently getting an education. In the end they are allowed to use discretion, their own, not the laws, to factor in alimony. Most RW in a short marriage will qualify for all the above and most likely get alimony even if the marriage lasts one day. I married a Ukrainian woman I met in the states. She had a work permit, green card, and spoke good English and had previous work experience but was also taking college classes. I paid 6 months alimony for a 3 year marriage. I'm not only assuming what a website says, I'm speaking from experience. If an FSU woman speaks zero English and has no work permit, she would be getting a generous amount of alimony till she's able to support herself on her own even if the affidavit of support doesn't come into play.
 
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/financialissues/p/alimony2.htm (http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/financialissues/p/alimony2.htm)
 
Paulie should factor in alimony in a future prenup. It should cover all bases and be fair to his future wife to the point she would be happy to sign it. If he chooses to create the stereotypical prenup that the media wants up to believe is one sided, Paulie will learn his prenup will have less value than toilet paper.
3 years is not that short. Did you have a child with that woman in your 3 years of marriage? Actually, I remember you have 2 sons? And the custody is primarily with your ex? I would expect alimony granted together with child support in this case.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 24, 2013, 08:17:09 AM
Did you have a child with that woman in your 3 years of marriage?

Yes but that issued is covered with child support. To get alimony my ex's attorneys only arguments were she doesn't speak good English although she did, she's an immigrant, studying in college, and not very employable.
 
Keep in mind, most articles pertaining to alimony that we are reading are geared toward Americans born and raised in America who have an easier time getting a job. Most laws are written in the same fashion. When an American man or woman marries a foreigner, it's different because the scales are tilted in favor of the American to move into financial independence easier than the foreigner so the judge will use his discretion more than the law to determine alimony
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 24, 2013, 08:41:21 AM
I didn't know Billy was married to an immigrant before.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 24, 2013, 08:49:01 AM
I didn't know Billy was married to an immigrant before.

Most everyone in USA is married to an immigrant . . . if you trace back far enough.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2013, 09:02:11 AM
Most everyone in USA is married to an immigrant . . . if you trace back far enough.

Not everybody if you wish to get technical about it
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 24, 2013, 09:10:52 AM
I didn't know Billy was married to an immigrant before.


With the exception of old James Bond movies, the ex was my introduction to the world of FSU women. Although the marriage didn't last, there are many things I still liked about FSU women. Before my ex I wouldn't never considered finding a woman through the internet but after I learned it's one of the best ways to find what you're looking for.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 24, 2013, 09:18:32 AM

Yes but that issued is covered with child support. To get alimony my ex's attorneys only arguments were she doesn't speak good English although she did, she's an immigrant, studying in college, and not very employable.
 
Keep in mind, most articles pertaining to alimony that we are reading are geared toward Americans born and raised in America who have an easier time getting a job. Most laws are written in the same fashion. When an American man or woman marries a foreigner, it's different because the scales are tilted in favor of the American to move into financial independence easier than the foreigner so the judge will use his discretion more than the law to determine alimony


Well it makes all the difference. A 3 year mariage which results in 2 under school aged kids, a mother is given primary custody and she is a student at the tisme of divorce-hell yeah, she would be given alimony, RW or AW.
It totally matches my previous quote
[font=.HelveticaNeueUI]http:/orcesupport.about.com/od/financialissues/f/alimonyconsider.htm[/font]
[font=.HelveticaNeueUI][/size][/font]

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: GQBlues on March 24, 2013, 09:22:02 AM
...It sounds hokey as I type it but the RW actually loved the guy, he wanted a maid and sex toy. She overstayed the tourist visa to be him. Sad story.


Sounds a lot like a current situation we have here, FP, although minus a child.

He: a US citizen of Chinese national. They met and lived in Beijing for 5 years, then moved to LA. Married 6 years. He has a business with his father. She never went to school or worked, never even got a driver's license. He basically made sure she didn't wandered off too far beyond his shadow.

She's 31 years old now. No degree, no work experience. No hireable skills. No DL, No, no, zip, nada.

He decided she's old news and would like a 'new' wife, so one day when his father was in town, they spoke with her about a divorce. Long story short, he wrote her a check (about enough to get an old car or a 6-month apartment lease in a rundown neighborhood - nothing else).

She's currently living with her long time friend from the city they grew up in back in Russia. The friend is married to an AM. They don't know what to do with/for her at this time. She doesn't want to go back to Russia but she's utterly without any skills or credentials, etc...other than work retail.

Tough, tough deal. I can only imagine this will be tougher had she have to worry about a child, or two...
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 24, 2013, 10:55:11 AM

It totally matches my previous quote



Your previous quote gave people the impression alimony in a short term marriage is only given if their is children are involved. The link I provided mentions many factors involved in alimony. Children is not the only factor. A single RW in a short marriage with no kids, limited English, no work permit, and no green card, is not going to be thrown out onto the street.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 24, 2013, 11:16:40 AM

Your previous quote gave people the impression alimony in a short term marriage is only given if their is children are involved. The link I provided mentions many factors involved in alimony. Children is not the only factor. A single RW in a short marriage with no kids, limited English, no work permit, and no green card, is not going to be thrown out onto the street.

Yes, this is my point and this is generally the case, AW or RW, or very close to that (see GQ's post). This is why I asked for personal examples. When you gave yours and ommitted the 2-kid factor, it mislead the public  :D
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 24, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
PB, Billy was originally (I think) trying to point out there is a difference between alimony and child support payments.

An order of child support payments is not always accompanied by an order of alimony.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 24, 2013, 11:35:34 AM


An order of child support payments is not always accompanied by an order of alimony.
Definitely. The article that I quoted points that when the children are very little and one of the parents gets primary custody, there is often alimony in addition to child support, even in case of a short marriage. It is benefitial for very small children to have a primary caregiver and a primary residence - hence support to the parent. I imagine that if the kids are older alimoty would be less common.
So, an order of child support payments is indeed not always accompanied by an order of alimony. However, in a short marriage without kids, there rarely is an order of alimony. period.
 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: noelscot on March 24, 2013, 12:07:27 PM
I still don't see anything wrong with "premarital support".
Why not?


The reason "Why not?" is that a lot of the men involved with the MOB pursuit are rich. Now they want to keep their money at all costs. Thus the mind of the greedy money-lender emerges as dominant in their decision making and personal relationships.


 


 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Russian_Bear on March 24, 2013, 12:16:56 PM
1) Do not provide money to any woman or her family before a marriage; except for the money needed for wedding preparation and her transportation to be with you.

I absolutely agree with Doll about some financial support before marriage. What sum we are talking about? It seems that some FSU women force american guys to pay thousands of dollars. Yes, of course, one must have eyes to see if some woman tries to cheat you. It is always seen. But if we are talking about a woman who you really love and who is hardworking and works for living here. Is it a "heroic deed" to give her some money. Even if some would be spent for her kid. I repeat, we are talking, I am sure, not about thousands of dollars. Just to give her a few hundreds of them - the sum you normally spend within a couple of days visiting a supermarket, but the sum that would be enough for a month living for her? Is it a lot or is it huge money for lots of you? Is it a lot for a beloved woman to make her life easier, even a little bit? Or you buy diamonds or splendid cars for her, or some real estate? It is not her ( an abstract woman's ) guilt that any job is badly paid here. Yeah... I am really shocked by such your greed...
For some months I had no possibility to write anything here ( because of my work and... ), but I could read sometimes. What women are better ( or something like that ) was a subject for discussion.. I don't want to say anything wrong about american women. As for FSU women.. I don't mean scammers or pro-daters who earn their money using some of you.I mean an ordinary woman and who will love you truly, I mean that only woman for you. So, if you meet such one, believe me, you will become the happiest man ( it will seem to you that you are and that will be true! ). No other woman will love you and take care of you as much as FSU women do. I am happily married for a couple dozens of years and I know what I talk about :) You had never had such a faithful person next to you before - a person who would never leave you whatever happens. No, I don't mean devotion of a hungry dog that you feed and that looks at you with widely open eyes and mouth ( you have to go to Thailand to get such ones ). Yes, FSU women can show their temper ( character ) as well. But they also can love as much as..  I can't even compare their love with anything ( otherwise it would be too poetical or grandiloquent ). The only thing you need is to meet such woman - the only one for you. Just, as Roxette has sung, listen to your heart..And, guys, be careful with all kind of agencies offering you some brides.. A lot of them just try to put your money into their pockets, making you pay for everything. Try to find on your own. Yes, it is a hard way, but it is worth to try. Ask everything you want to know about FSU women ( not all of their secrets I am told though   ;)). I'll be glad to help you guys :)


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Lily on March 24, 2013, 01:00:55 PM
Russian Bear -  :welcome:  we don't have many Russian men here.
 
I like your post  :clapping:  Please write here more  :-*
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 24, 2013, 01:50:28 PM
However, in a short marriage without kids, there rarely is an order of alimony. period.


I can agree with you there but there are exceptions. Short marriages without kids between American men and foreign women exist but I don't see foreign women on the streets homeless. A judge would lose his job if he started putting disadvantaged foreign women on the streets.




For some months I had no possibility to write anything here ( because of my work and... ), but I could read sometimes.

   ;) ). I'll be glad to help you guys :)



With the amount of help we need, you are going to have to quit your job. Showing up here once a month is not enough.


I agree with you and Doll it's okay to help a woman before marriage. I did that with my wife although she never asked for help. If a guy is engaged to a woman, that's almost the same as being married.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 24, 2013, 05:32:35 PM
Question.   Of those RW who divorce and do not earn enough income to support themselves, how many rely on government aid vs. their network of friends and their own sense of survival?  A single woman without kids will not qualify for Section 8 housing, and even if she did I can not envision the pride of a RW agreeing to Section 8 housing.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on March 24, 2013, 05:50:28 PM
  Furthermore, if she is unable to prove "marriage in good faith" and get he permanent gc on her own upon divorce- she will become an illegal and be potentially deported from the US. This is sad but true - those first couple years of marriage before the permanent GC a RW is really 100% at the mercy of an AM husband. And in many cases it get exceptionally ugly.

To threaten deportation seems utterly dishonorable.   Such a cad does not deserve a wife and probably does not have the emotional IQ to develop loving feelings.
 
My ex-wife and I divorced well before the end of the two years.  She retained an attorney and stayed.  I was asked to help in her "good faith" defense; however, what they asked and received from me was so small that I wonder if it was even needed.   Based on that experience, I would think almost any RW could stay.  Pitbull, how many RW are actually deported because marriages lasted less than two years?
 
BTW,  Pitbull, your opinion regarding alimony seems accurate.  Continuing, periodic alimony will be considered in Florida only for marriages of 7 years or more.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Doll on March 24, 2013, 06:37:28 PM
Question.   Of those RW who divorce and do not earn enough income to support themselves, how many rely on government aid vs. their network of friends and their own sense of survival?  A single woman without kids will not qualify for Section 8 housing, and even if she did I can not envision the pride of a RW agreeing to Section 8 housing.
Not many, but it is not about pride- they  just do not qualify for it.
What is "enough income"?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: pitbull on March 24, 2013, 07:52:42 PM

 Pitbull, how many RW are actually deported because marriages lasted less than two years?
 


I don't think any statistics exist. I would imagine a good number stays anyway even if their status chages to illegal
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 24, 2013, 08:23:18 PM

 I would imagine a good number stays anyway even if their status chages to illegal

That's for sure. Dated an FSU woman who married an FSU man. She divorced him soon after coming to America before green card. She is housed and taken care of by the American government and she has no kids. Free college too. She eventually concluded I wouldn't be her future husband and proposed to me a physical relationship in exchange for financial help.
 
Another FSU woman I dated came on a tourist visa, got an immigration attorney and stayed in America due to the abusive husband she had back home. I don't think our government has any proof, they just take the woman's word for it.
 
Another I dated got asylum. She told our government if she goes back home, she's in danger due to her beliefs. How does anybody prove that? I assume our government took her word for it. It's easy to stay in America once you're here and get government assistance.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Russian_Bear on March 25, 2013, 12:04:33 AM
Russian Bear -  :welcome:  we don't have many Russian men here.
 
I like your post  :clapping:  Please write here more  :-*

Hello. Lily :) Thank you for your words. I will appear more often now :)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: GQBlues on March 25, 2013, 06:27:16 AM
Not many, but it is not about pride- they  just do not qualify for it.

Yeppers, exactly right. That's what a Ukrainian woman told us when she tried to apply for government assistance for her and her daughter after divorce.

Denied.  :(
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on March 25, 2013, 06:47:37 AM
That's what a Ukrainian woman told us when she tried to apply for government assistance for her and her daughter after divorce.

Denied.  :(

How much income was she getting from her job or her ex? Around were I live there are apartment complexes dominated by Ukrainian people. I dated one lady, not the one in college, with no kids who was in one of the apartments. Another lady I dated got out of government assistance and started a business. She wanted to teach her son not to rely on free handouts. She said everybody knows you can't make over a certain amount of money otherwise you lose your benefits. Many immigrants end up working cash jobs so they could keep their benefits. Food stamps are easier to get than housing.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Jumper on March 25, 2013, 12:26:50 PM
I wonder if an Affidavit of Support will be enforced in this case and the man will have to pay back. Also, is the Affidavit just for Federal government or State as well? If just federal - then I'm not surprised it is rarely enforced, since all this help mostly comes from the state.

I know a case, of a very short marriage (months)
and the judge took the AOS in consideration when granting support to the RW.
no kids incvolved.
she also has suppirt from various state programs fort trainjng and job placemrnt, as wellss food/ shelters..and relocation t ther statwes..continuing a year or so later.
 
 
These things vary so much by state,
 that there is no way to give one answer.
No family law attorney would attempt it, but forums always do :) 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: GQBlues on March 25, 2013, 06:13:14 PM

How much income was she getting from her job or her ex? Around were I live there are apartment complexes dominated by Ukrainian people....


She was although IIRC, it bordered minimum (no help from the ex). I tend to agree with her conclusion in that she flat-out didn't know how to *work the system*. According to her, the people she spoke with in the office, wherever it was, were apparently telling her they work on jobs for more pay than what she was getting.

Heck, even illegal immigrants are getting social royalties (PC term), but for her - *denied*.  :(

I think the Feds really should enforce accountability that petitioners sign in for when they filed these silly K1s...that should at least alleviate hardships that befall so many of these women. I think this would also give the men a cause to pause before signing on the dotted line inspired only by their silly little heads.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Anotherkiwi on March 27, 2013, 06:35:09 PM

I know a case, of a very short marriage (months)
and the judge took the AOS in consideration when granting support to the RW.
no kids incvolved.
she also has suppirt from various state programs fort trainjng and job placemrnt, as wellss food/ shelters..and relocation t ther statwes..continuing a year or so later.
 
 
These things vary so much by state,
 that there is no way to give one answer.
No family law attorney would attempt it, but forums always do :)

 :offtopic:  Jumper, were you tipsy when you wrote this, or just having finger trouble on your smart phone?  :o
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Stirlitz on March 28, 2013, 01:25:38 AM
Almost every FSUW that I interacted with claimed that one of the top priorities for her future husband was that he had a sense of humor.
Yet, not all women actually possess this sense, I would even state few. And they can often be offended at your jokes and even mark you as an idiot when they don’t understand your joke, even if you specially add that you are kidding.
No logic. Women!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on March 28, 2013, 09:59:58 AM
I would mostly agree with Stirlitz on this.

On average it seems, women have much less sense of humor than men, and certainly much less tolerance for 'silliness.'

But still, there is some percentage of women (I would estimate around 30%) who enjoy humor just as much as men.  And I would estimate maybe 15% who can even tell a few jokes.  And maybe 10% who can and do enjoy a man who is 'silly' a bit of the time. 

I have been lucky to find quite a few of those in the latter category.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on March 28, 2013, 10:51:33 AM
I would mostly agree with Stirlitz on this.

On average it seems, women have much less sense of humor than men, and certainly much less tolerance for 'silliness.'

But still, there is some percentage of women (I would estimate around 30%) who enjoy humor just as much as men.  And I would estimate maybe 15% who can even tell a few jokes.  And maybe 10% who can and do enjoy a man who is 'silly' a bit of the time. 

I have been lucky to find quite a few of those in the latter category.

Agree, and what a difference in personality.         ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Eduard on July 03, 2013, 09:31:30 AM
Just saw this on a woman's profile on Mamba (she lives in the US by the way) :
Не понимаю как муж с двумя почками может говорить жене что не может купить шубу)
[/size]"I don't get it how a husband with 2 kidneys can tell his wife that he can't afford to buy her a fur coat ) "[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]It's a joke off course, but as they say in Ukraine: [/color][/size] "В каждой шутке есть доля шутки" [/color]
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Voyager36 on July 03, 2013, 02:02:26 PM

She's currently living with her long time friend from the city they grew up in back in Russia. The friend is married to an AM. They don't know what to do with/for her at this time. She doesn't want to go back to Russia but she's utterly without any skills or credentials, etc...other than work retail.

Tough, tough deal. I can only imagine this will be tougher had she have to worry about a child, or two...

Hard to imagine that her friends AM doesn't know what to tell her to do.  :cluebat:
She needs to talk to a divorce lawyer, she should be entitled to half of the marital property.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: GQBlues on July 03, 2013, 02:30:09 PM

Hard to imagine that her friends AM doesn't know what to tell her to do.  :cluebat:
She needs to talk to a divorce lawyer, she should be entitled to half of the marital property.


That was 3 months ago, Voyager  :P Our friend actually did extended her every possible assistance, Provided her a home, meals, had her use their car to lean how to drive, driven her to work seminars, etc...

But...things went sour (alas!) apparently when she decided to list herself in some social site notoriously for ex-pats in LA. Within the week, she was going out on dates with different men 2-3 times out of the week. On the surface of it, it doesn't seem 'bad' but apparently the 'dates' was all an overnighter -  >:D .

She would always trip the house alarm with frequency and we were told that soon they were waking up with strange men walking up their hallways in the AM to greet them Dobre Utras.

It's Howdy-doody time all over again! I like her spirit!!! What a fly-girl!

When friend RW was telling us, AM hubby was looking straight in my eyes as I was bustin' up! You go girl! LOL...
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Fashionista on July 04, 2013, 04:33:48 AM

Не понимаю как муж с двумя почками может говорить жене что не может купить шубу)

LOL  :clapping:
I am going to quote that...
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Lily on July 04, 2013, 07:35:45 AM
Any development in Paulie's situation, I am curious?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: AnObserver on August 20, 2013, 08:00:59 AM
Any updates here?

Are you still looking, Paulie?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on October 09, 2013, 05:45:59 AM
Hi, 

I know it's been a long time since I've been here.  A lot has happened and now I wish to pick up where I left off. 

It is almost 6 AM here in California and I just came back from Istanbul.  Can't sleep, so I thought I would come here and send a note to say hello to everyone. 

I need to pull my thoughts and emotions together, and then I would like to share with all of you where I've been regarding my original post.  I am just in a tough moment right now, so I will come back in a day or two,

Best wishes,

Paul
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on October 09, 2013, 09:15:53 AM
Paul, give it one day of recovery for every hour of time zones you went through returning.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on October 09, 2013, 11:24:40 AM
Thanks ML.  I ma having a hard time because of the events in Istanbul.  I think I finally realized what and who I was dealing with relative to the woman I talked about months ago.

I will be sharing my story here as I could use some help overcoming the pain and suffering I put myself through.

Best,

Paul
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on October 09, 2013, 12:15:26 PM
Thanks ML.  I ma having a hard time because of the events in Istanbul.  I think I finally realized what and who I was dealing with relative to the woman I talked about months ago.

I will be sharing my story here as I could use some help overcoming the pain and suffering I put myself through.

Best,

Paul

You went to meet the "guarantee" woman after all?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: GQBlues on October 09, 2013, 01:34:50 PM
You went to meet the "guarantee" woman after all?


Well, if he did, you shouldn't be too surprised about that, FP. That's more of a 'rule' than an 'exception' in these hallways when it comes to women matters.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on October 09, 2013, 02:10:00 PM
Paulie,
 
Welcome back.  Your story sounds like it will be very interesting and evidently painful.    Not to worry - it will become water over the dam (or water under the bridge for the Brits).   Looking forward to reading it. 
 
It has been a long time since you and I last spoke.  On your next trip to Florida, don't forget about us.   Wifey is better than ever. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on October 09, 2013, 02:51:14 PM

Well, if he did, you shouldn't be too surprised about that, FP. That's more of a 'rule' than an 'exception' in these hallways when it comes to women matters.

Nothing surprises me from the boards anymore. It's just that most men don't get as much advance notice of the impending doodoo bomb in a dumpster fire as Paulie did and jump right in anyway.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on October 09, 2013, 03:08:45 PM
Nothing surprises me from the boards anymore. It's just that most men don't get as much advance notice of the impending doodoo bomb in a dumpster fire as Paulie did and jump right in anyway.

The pull of attraction, and love, is strong.  Paulie still had doubts, and it was better to resolve those doubts, rather than think, for the rest of his life, "What if?"

I commend him for coming back to the forum to let us know, as many who fail, particularly after posters have warned them of pitfalls, just drop off.  We'll have to wait for the story, but I am sure it will help others.
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Daveman on October 09, 2013, 03:23:40 PM
The pull of attraction, and love, is strong.  Paulie still had doubts, and it was better to resolve those doubts, rather than think, for the rest of his life, "What if?"

I commend him for coming back to the forum to let us know, as many who fail, particularly after posters have warned them of pitfalls, just drop off.  We'll have to wait for the story, but I am sure it will help others.


I agree.


And rose colored glasses are less distorting than the Lenses of Limerence...


Welcome back Paulie. Looking forward to hearing, as your doppelganger would say, "the rest of the story..."
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: lonedrake on October 09, 2013, 05:01:58 PM
Quote
The pull of attraction, and love, is strong.  Paulie still had doubts, and it was better to resolve those doubts, rather than think, for the rest of his life, "What if?"

I commend him for coming back to the forum to let us know, as many who fail, particularly after posters have warned them of pitfalls, just drop off.  We'll have to wait for the story, but I am sure it will help others.
 

 I third that :)

 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: SANDRO43 on October 09, 2013, 05:50:46 PM
Not to worry - it will become water over the dam...
I'm curious, is that considered an auspicious situation in the US :o?

Today it's the 50th anniversary of such an occurrence here, a national tragedy when a huge piece of mountain fell into a hydroelectric reservoir, the landslide of 260 million cubic metres creating a massive 200m-overflowing wave that killed 1,900+ people in the villages downhill of the dam - that was then being tested for structural soundness ;).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/4/4d/Disastro_Vajont.jpg)
Remains of the landslide from Monte Toc (at right)

However, the dam was damaged only marginally in its crowning part and later put into service - still is today.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/La_diga_del_Vajont_vista_da_Longarone_18-8-2005.jpg/423px-La_diga_del_Vajont_vista_da_Longarone_18-8-2005.jpg)
The Vajont dam nowadays (30th March, 2013)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: 2tallbill on October 09, 2013, 10:19:03 PM
Hi, 

I know it's been a long time since I've been here.  A lot has happened and now I wish to pick up where I left off. 

It is almost 6 AM here in California and I just came back from Istanbul.  Can't sleep, so I thought I would come here and send a note to say hello to everyone. 

I need to pull my thoughts and emotions together, and then I would like to share with all of you where I've been regarding my original post.  I am just in a tough moment right now, so I will come back in a day or two,

Best wishes,




Paulie,


Thanks for touching base. I read the first few pages and then skipped
ahead to your last post.


Udachi !


Bill

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on October 21, 2013, 02:00:19 PM
Hi Everyone,

Sorry for my delay in writing.  I was ill with the flu upon my return from Istanbul and then family issues came up.  Later tonight I will write.  I look forward to connecting with everyone again.

With kind regards,

Paul
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Chicagoguy on October 21, 2013, 06:35:06 PM
Sandro,
I know that is probably not a home in the picture of the damn but if it were I think I would take a pass on it  ::)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: SANDRO43 on October 22, 2013, 04:36:57 AM
Sandro, I know that is probably not a home in the picture of the damn but if it were I think I would take a pass on it  ::)
It's a home and has been safe for a long number of years, the dam was proved to be structurally sound by the event - and RAF 617 Squadron has been otherwise engaged in the meantime :D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCRIsjJFRNo&hd=1

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/617sqn-600.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: GQBlues on November 14, 2013, 05:58:39 PM
Thanks ML.  I ma having a hard time because of the events in Istanbul.  I think I finally realized what and who I was dealing with relative to the woman I talked about months ago.

I will be sharing my story here as I could use some help overcoming the pain and suffering I put myself through.

Best,

Paul


Well, I hope Paulie is OK. I hope the flu didn't turn out to be something worst.... :( I'd still like to know what happened on his trip and what state he's in today...

 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Shadow on November 16, 2013, 06:21:37 AM
Unfortunately it seems that the initial idea I had about this turned out correct.
Every once in a while I would like an unlikely story to turn out for the best, but it rarely happens.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on November 16, 2013, 07:23:54 AM
Unfortunately it seems that the initial idea I had about this turned out correct.
Every once in a while I would like an unlikely story to turn out for the best, but it rarely happens.

Yeah me too. Paulie was offered a lot of good conventional wisdom and chose to  go against it. At least he knew going in. There are instances where one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch and I fear this might be the case for Paulie but, maybe not. I hate being right all the time.

It'd be nice if Paulie came back and gave some closure to his thread though
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on November 16, 2013, 10:46:00 AM
Hi Everyone,

I am sorry for not coming back to this site much sooner.  I have had a lot going on since my last post.  But, there is no excuse for not being here, especially given your kindness to me. 

MY UPDATE
Most important at this moment is dealing with my older son's (27) cancer.  He has a stubborn case of Stage II Hodgkin's Lymphoma.  He's been trying to rid himself of it since February.  We are all hoping for the best.

As for my girlfriend in Istanbul, I am still at it with her.  Honestly, it has been one heck of a ride for me.  I truly love this woman and I continually deal with it.  I am not a glutton for punishment, trust me. 

Since my last post, we have traveled back and forth several times.  Over the summer she was in San Francisco for two months.  She would have stayed longer, but found out her mom has pancreatic cancer and had to go to Istanbul, then Ukraine, then to Moscow.  Her mom is dying and this is her focus.  So, we are both dealing with cancer in the family. 

During her time with me, we had wonderful moments with one exception where we had a tiff over an issue that she responded to poorly.  I could have responded better myself.

I have been helping her financially over the last year, paying for her travel and giving her money.  Her business is not doing well financially, so I offered to help.  Given my income, it has not been an issue. 

THE PROBLEM
I am still experiencing problems in two key areas - 1) her concept of how she wants to be supported financially 2) her often misguided ideas about love, marriage and relationships.  Her idea is, in her words 'traditional' in that she feels a man should take care of a woman.  I have no problem with that: I have taken care of the women I lived with.  BUT, a key phrase is 'creating a working relationship.'  She seems to lack that ability because she is stubborn. 

Over the last 18 months I have enjoyed many precious moments with her.  But there are moments she cancels it all out when she becomes scornful and critical.  (We've discussed this and she knows how I feel about it.)  In a word, my girlfriend is a 'perfectionist.'  I too have had these tendencies but learned to let go of it.  She also has a negative streak, can be hard to please, can be demanding and objectionable.  I am always looking at the bright side of life. 

So, why am I with this woman you might wonder?  When she is kind, she can be the sweetest person, fun, entertaining, intellectual, humorous, silly,  and a wonderful lover.   

However, she has an idealistic view of how a man should be in relationship.   Or maybe I am not her type.  In describing her ideal of a relationship, she uses words like  'noble,' 'generous,' and 'sacrificial' to describe what she expects from a man.  She wants a man to 'win her.'  (As for me, I want to be accepted for me: just a down-to-earth and humble person.)   

In October, I flew out to help with her dying mom.  Before I went, I spent three weeks studying pancreatic cancer with the intent of helping the family understand how to deal with it.  Her mom opted not to do any type of cancer therapy, so I decided to help in other ways through homeopathy.  It was  the top 10 most stressful five weeks I endured.  My point is that I don't think she get how much stress this caused ME. 

WHAT I OFFERED
While I was there, I mentioned (obviously the wrong time to do this) that we should consider being together.  She said I was being abstract and needed something concrete.  So, while she was attending to her mom, I spent a day looking at my financial position and came up with an idea and presented it to her. 

Before I share the details, the context of my thinking was that she would keep her business in Istanbul, while moving to the US.  We both thought she could run the business from the US, with her traveling back occasionally.  (Now that she is in Ukraine attending to her mom who is close to dying, I believe it would not be possible for her to run her business from a distance:  her business is suffering without her there.)

My starting point offered to give her $2K cash a month, lease her a new car, cover medical, car insurance, phone, food, etc.  Essentially, she would not have any expenses.   Perhaps $2K is not much, but it is a beginning.  I would also, after a period of 3-6 months of getting adjusted, offer to help her establish her business here in the US.  She DOES have the ability to make money with her talents as a gymnastic trainer.

She has a concern about housing, especially if we break up.  So, I came up with a couple of ideas. - 1) She sells the two apartments she has in Ukraine.  She could likely get between, $100-140K.  I would put up equal cash and we would buy a place for cash together.  The title would be (50/50) in her name and mine, in the name of my trust.  I said if I die before her, she could stay in the home until she dies and then the proceeds from the sale would go half to her daughter, the remaining half back to my estate for my children. OR, 2) She could use her money to buy a place in her and her daughter's name.  I would buy a house for cash and put it in my trust.  If I die, she could stay in it until she dies, the house remaining in the trust for my children. 

If we would divorce, in either #1 or #2, then she could stay in the property until she dies, with my estate keeping my initial investment for my kids. 

HER RESPONSE
1) "You offer me nothing." (This comment led to a monumental argument; more about this later.)
2)  She wanted me to put the title in her name only.  (I told her the only possible way that will happen is after we together spend years building a NEW financial base.  I will not use funds from what I built in the past.  Nor, will I allow her to pass on my money to her daughter.) 

WHERE WE ARE NOW
She is in Ukraine taking care of her mom who will die soon, a week, a month or so.  In any event, her business will crumble at this rate.  We talk about being together, but do not go into detail.  Honestly, I am hoping a light bulb goes off in her head where she will realize just what IS important. 

We have been talking about her critical and demanding nature, but it only goes in at a surface level.  Again, I am hoping the changes she will go through, she might try to go deeper into her soul to understand that she has a good man by her side.  (Her last husband was a bum, a loser - a cigarette bootlegger who is on the run from England since 2008.  This she calls ‘noble.’) 

I talked about my situation with someone who knows me and she said I have a high tolerance for pain and stress and that I am a person who is committed.  She is right, but that does not mean I will stay the course with my girlfriend.  I said I would give this two years to work through; time is running out as we enter the 11th hour.  I am beginning to look at my other options. 

Lastly, as always I’ve respected everyone’s thoughts, ideas and comments.  When you respond, please be kind, I’ve had enough negative criticism to last a lifetime.  Just being honest here. 

I will do my best to stay in this forum this time.  I believe there are good people here and I would enjoy becoming friends with all of you. 

Paul


Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on November 16, 2013, 11:00:23 AM
Paul, your words give me much anguish.

You are being foolish on a scale larger than imaginable.

There is absolutely no plausible reason for you to stay with or have anything to do with this woman.

Have you seen the movie "Blue Angel?"  Watch it and get sick over what a woman can do to a good man.

Also, there was a Greek guy living in UK who carried on with a woman such as yours for several years.  He kept promising on here that he was never giving her another chance, yet he did over and over again. 

Others, chime in here and tell the guy's name so that Paul can read his never ending threads.

I pray for you Paul to come to your senses.  There are tons of good women out there.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: SANDRO43 on November 16, 2013, 11:02:07 AM
Others, chime in here and tell the guy's name so that Paul can read his never ending threads.
Wiz.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on November 16, 2013, 11:07:05 AM
Paul, your words give me much anguish.

You are being foolish on a scale larger than imaginable.

There is absolutely no plausible reason for you to stay with or have anything to do with this woman.

Have you seen the movie "Blue Angel?"  Watch it and get sick over what a woman can do to a good man.

Also, there was a Greek guy living in UK who carried on with a woman such as yours for several years.  He kept promising on here that he was never giving her another chance, yet he did over and over again. 

Others, chime in here and tell the guy's name so that Paul can read his never ending threads.

I pray for you Paul to come to your senses.  There are tons of good women out there.

Hi ML,

Yes, I know the anguish you speak of.  Honestly, I am back in therapy to deal with this.  On my wall is a list of issues that tell me what I need to know.  My children and my dear friends tell me the same thing you say.  I am back here to finally grapple with cutting loose.  Really, I am.  This is beyond heart wrenching. 

I will look for 'Blue Angel' and watch it.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention. 

ML, I know what I must do.  I know if I do not, I will DIE an early death.   

Once again, I appreciate your candor. 

Paul
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Turboguy on November 16, 2013, 11:26:07 AM
Sandro is correct.   That was Wiz that had the bad experiences with Mirror who was also a member here.   The thread is "Dilemma".   Wiz was smart and moved on and is now ecstatically happily married to another FSU woman Hannah. 


Moving on can be a tough decision but sometimes it is the only good choice.  Some of the FSU women think AM can be greedy.  I think this thread shows it can be the other way as well.   
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on November 16, 2013, 11:39:08 AM
Paulie

Welcome back!
IMHO, relationships especially in the beginning stages should come with much more emotional ease than this one seems to be going for you. Your a giver and she's a taker. That's not a good match. There should be ample amounts of give and take from both partners. She's much more keyed into the financials and more specifically yours more so than hers. It's greed. That can not end well. Good luck guy no matter what you do
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Daveman on November 16, 2013, 11:40:40 AM
Paulie,


If you're a down to earth guy then you really need a down to earth girl.  All these "trials" give you a bit of a thrill ride. Riding a rollercoaster is exciting, fun, the antithesis of the mundane - but living on one is a different matter entirely.  After some time illness and insanity follow.  The analogy my seem silly yet it is accurate.


My opinion - this will never, ever, in a million millenia be what you want.  Once married, these traits which now cause you grief will be your emotional death.  It won't get better.


Walk away.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Slumba on November 16, 2013, 01:43:39 PM
I looked over your earlier posts, and your latest post also ... forgive my bluntness in my response... you are one of the few guys on here that I perceive as truly a "nice" person.  You come across as honest and forthright.

1. I think you are in an abusive relationship.  She gives you some praise, but also controls what and when and how much you give her etc.  She does "game" in a dark and neurotic way, quick to punish but slow to reward. She is "herding" you into the corner she wants you to be in, just like a good herding dog does to sheep.

2. She is either extremely entitled or possibly has a personality disorder, like BPD. 

You, as a "fixer/provider" type, are acting like a narcissist in thinking that if you just work a little harder you can fix the problem, and that you ultimately will win out over her bad behavior. 

If she truly has BPD you will never win, because at any point she can dump on you, walk away, and blame any bad things on you and claim any good things as being due to her innate goodness and nobility.  (this is sometimes called "splitting")

I am not a psychologist, but you should talk to your therapist or even talk to a specialist he might recommend.  BPD'ers can really make you feel like Superman when they are in their "up" phase! With BPD there is no fix or cure... does anything written here, fit?  http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html

3. Her SMV (sexual marketplace value) is low and dropping by the month, no matter how good looking she is, in comparison to a younger, good looking girl.  She is not able to have kids any more, that also reduces her value (objectively speaking; doesn't matter if you, yourself, want kids or not). 

For all the money you have spent, you could have found someone younger, with less baggage, both sweeter and hotter - and even had a kid with her if you wanted to.

Think I am a jerk talking about money?  Then what do you think of Ms. Istanbul? 

She is being practical and pragmatic about you, you are being romantic and sappy and you are getting your ass kicked, financially and emotionally.

4.  She is asking you to compensate her (money and emotions wise) for her mistakes in the past with ex-husband and other men.  Not good - you should have a clean slate, within reason, for the relationship.

5. Not even pimps and madams of brothels and whorehouses, do what she does - make you pay for some other guy's past use of her p*ssy.  Think about that, let it sink in.

6.  When she was hotter/tighter/younger she gave it away for free, but now she wants comfort and luxury - in return for what?  She is not giving you more kids,  raising your current kids, or helping you in your business interests - is she even an excellent cook and obsessively clean housekeeper?

(I know you think I am the biggest SOB after reading the above.)

What you should do:

If you really want to keep her, you will have to dominate her...

Let her business fail (it will do so anyways) and let her become financially dependant on you.
Make her "earn" her perks and luxury trips to places. 

Personally, I know I don't have the strength to consistently do this, and I don't think you do, either.

(you shouldn't do this, you should kick her to the curb)
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on November 16, 2013, 01:52:30 PM
Paulie,

Wanna know how she's gonna treat you in a year?  Just listen to what she says (from her perspective) about her ex. 

You are too nice a guy to wind up with such an abuser. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: lonedrake on November 16, 2013, 02:13:38 PM
Quote
My starting point offered to give her $2K cash a month, lease her a new car, cover medical, car insurance, phone, food, etc.  Essentially, she would not have any expenses.   Perhaps $2K is not much, but it is a beginning.  I would also, after a period of 3-6 months of getting adjusted, offer to help her establish her business here in the US.  She DOES have the ability to make money with her talents as a gymnastic trainer.

She has a concern about housing, especially if we break up.  So, I came up with a couple of ideas. - 1) She sells the two apartments she has in Ukraine.  She could likely get between, $100-140K.  I would put up equal cash and we would buy a place for cash together.  The title would be (50/50) in her name and mine, in the name of my trust.  I said if I die before her, she could stay in the home until she dies and then the proceeds from the sale would go half to her daughter, the remaining half back to my estate for my children. OR, 2) She could use her money to buy a place in her and her daughter's name.  I would buy a house for cash and put it in my trust.  If I die, she could stay in it until she dies, the house remaining in the trust for my children. 

If we would divorce, in either #1 or #2, then she could stay in the property until she dies, with my estate keeping my initial investment for my kids. 

HER RESPONSE
1) "You offer me nothing


You can't buy love....but you can try.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on November 16, 2013, 06:46:57 PM
Paulie, she is a leech.  Be honest with yourself.  How much are you accepting this behaviour because of her physical appearance and the great sex? 


She will not change, no matter how much you try to negotiate something else.   From your posts, I suspect your values are too fundamentally different to ever make it in marriage. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: JayH on November 16, 2013, 07:19:28 PM
Paulie, she is a leech.  Be honest with yourself.  How much are you accepting this behaviour because of her physical appearance and the great sex? 


She will not change, no matter how much you try to negotiate something else.   From your posts, I suspect your values are too fundamentally different to ever make it in marriage.
  Dont hold back-please tell us what you really think !! ;D
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ade on November 17, 2013, 12:33:22 AM
I looked over your earlier posts, and your latest post also ... forgive my bluntness in my response... you are one of the few guys on here that I perceive as truly a "nice" person.  You come across as honest and forthright.

1. I think you are in an abusive relationship.  She gives you some praise, but also controls what and when and how much you give her etc.  She does "game" in a dark and neurotic way, quick to punish but slow to reward. She is "herding" you into the corner she wants you to be in, just like a good herding dog does to sheep.

2. She is either extremely entitled or possibly has a personality disorder, like BPD. 

You, as a "fixer/provider" type, are acting like a narcissist in thinking that if you just work a little harder you can fix the problem, and that you ultimately will win out over her bad behavior. 

If she truly has BPD you will never win, because at any point she can dump on you, walk away, and blame any bad things on you and claim any good things as being due to her innate goodness and nobility.  (this is sometimes called "splitting")

I am not a psychologist, but you should talk to your therapist or even talk to a specialist he might recommend.  BPD'ers can really make you feel like Superman when they are in their "up" phase! With BPD there is no fix or cure... does anything written here, fit?  http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html

3. Her SMV (sexual marketplace value) is low and dropping by the month, no matter how good looking she is, in comparison to a younger, good looking girl.  She is not able to have kids any more, that also reduces her value (objectively speaking; doesn't matter if you, yourself, want kids or not). 

For all the money you have spent, you could have found someone younger, with less baggage, both sweeter and hotter - and even had a kid with her if you wanted to.

Think I am a jerk talking about money?  Then what do you think of Ms. Istanbul? 

She is being practical and pragmatic about you, you are being romantic and sappy and you are getting your ass kicked, financially and emotionally.

4.  She is asking you to compensate her (money and emotions wise) for her mistakes in the past with ex-husband and other men.  Not good - you should have a clean slate, within reason, for the relationship.

5. Not even pimps and madams of brothels and whorehouses, do what she does - make you pay for some other guy's past use of her p*ssy.  Think about that, let it sink in.

6.  When she was hotter/tighter/younger she gave it away for free, but now she wants comfort and luxury - in return for what?  She is not giving you more kids,  raising your current kids, or helping you in your business interests - is she even an excellent cook and obsessively clean housekeeper?

(I know you think I am the biggest SOB after reading the above.)

What you should do:

If you really want to keep her, you will have to dominate her...

Let her business fail (it will do so anyways) and let her become financially dependant on you.
Make her "earn" her perks and luxury trips to places. 

Personally, I know I don't have the strength to consistently do this, and I don't think you do, either.

(you shouldn't do this, you should kick her to the curb)

Why you are still single I'll never know...

 :barf: :barf: :barf:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 17, 2013, 04:52:34 AM
Hi ML,

Yes, I know the anguish you speak of.  Honestly, I am back in therapy to deal with this.  On my wall is a list of issues that tell me what I need to know.  My children and my dear friends tell me the same thing you say.  I am back here to finally grapple with cutting loose.  Really, I am.  This is beyond heart wrenching. 

I will look for 'Blue Angel' and watch it.  Thanks for bringing this to my attention. 

ML, I know what I must do. I know if I do not, I will DIE an early death.   

Once again, I appreciate your candor. 

Paul

Paul, you wrote very early on that you have heart disease.  Unless you are the biggest submissive in history, this woman is so wrong for you that you need proper psychiatric care, not just medical or therapy, for putting yourself through this torture.  I don't care how much you love this woman - don't you realise that she is trying to set herself up to kill you through stress and anxiety, even if she doesn't mean to?
 
Why on earth do you insist on trying to let her by grovelling at her feet (no matter how pretty they are) over every tiny detail?  I'm honestly worried that this thread will never die because you will already have done so.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Shadow on November 17, 2013, 04:58:59 AM
First of all I am sorry to hear about the battles with cancer, and I wish the both of you the best. Having lost both my parents to it, I am all aware of what the effects can be.

Paulie it has been ovious from the start that you are well off and can afford a high maintenance woman. No problem with that.
However there is a difference between a true relationship with a hign maintenance woman and getting leeched upon. If she has such demands before marriage, it will not become better afterwards and I have to suspect her goal is to obtain as much of your wealth as possible. In a true relationship the monetary arrangements would be secondary and not be a major cause of stress.
If you manage to move on I would advise you to look in the large cities like Kiev or Moscow. This because there will be women there who are already familiar with a high lifestyle and will not see it as a reason to get as much out of it as possible.

Remeber that if you feel a relationship needs a huge effort and causes a lot of stress, it is very likely not going to turn out well.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on November 17, 2013, 10:57:30 AM
Paulie,
 
Please give her up!   She does not love you, and she never will.  If a woman loves you, she will want to be with you even if there is some risk. 
 
You have eliminated her risk.   The deal you described for a jointly owned home would be a good deal for her.   Yet, she said it was not enough.   
 
She has failed every litmus test.   Aren't you out of litmus paper by now?
 
Start over and find that special someone.  The special woman will require 33% of the work you are now doing, and you will feel 1000% better.
 
Your children and friends met her when she visited you?   Yes?  Your children and friends worry about your happiness and health.  We read what they said.   Please listen to them if not to us.
 
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: missAmeno on November 17, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
Paul, love should bring happiness, not misery.

Quote
THE PROBLEM
I am still experiencing problems in two key areas - 1) her concept of how she wants to be supported financially 2) her often misguided ideas about love, marriage and relationships.  Her idea is, in her words 'traditional' in that she feels a man should take care of a woman.  I have no problem with that: I have taken care of the women I lived with.  BUT, a key phrase is 'creating a working relationship.'  She seems to lack that ability because she is stubborn.

Don't be silly. 'Take care' doesn't equal to money. 'Take care' means provide necessary for the health, welfare and protection. Bare in mind in healthy relationship taking care goes both ways. She should be taking care of you too!

I can not figure out how in concept of being traditional came in expectation of $x monthly allowance and a house with a title in her name only. Isn't in traditional concept money kept in one pot and that pot belongs to family?

Quote
In describing her ideal of a relationship, she uses words like  'noble,' 'generous,' and 'sacrificial' to describe what she expects from a man.  She wants a man to 'win her.'

Oh dear, it looks like her and me were reading same type of books in early teen years. :P  Just she forgot to mention that in such ideal of a relationship woman will be loving, caring, supportive, loyal, dedicated, etc. and all of that regardless of the size of man's wallet.

Quote
She DOES have the ability to make money with her talents as a gymnastic trainer

Yes, she does. You are prove of that. Sorry for sarcasm but you need wake-up call.

Look, I understand it is frightening to move to different country and start everything from beginning. Striking financial deal with some guaranteed monthly allowances/house is not the way to deal with it. There must be trust to each other. And by the way you two negotiating finances in case of break up only shows she doesn't trust you and she doesn't believe your relationship will succeed. 

Quote
Honestly, I am hoping a light bulb goes off in her head where she will realize just what IS important.
... I am hoping the changes she will go through, she might try to go deeper into her soul to understand that she has a good man by her side.

You are building relationship on a hope she will finally understand something and change somehow. Please, wake up. Do not put yourself and your family through this. You deserve better. First, people seldom change. Second, even when they change they are seldom change the way we want them to change (more often it gets worse than better). Third, love yourself enough to walk away from someone who fails to treat you with love and respect that you deserve.

It is not easy to walk away specially from those who we love. And unfortunately we sometimes do fall in love with a wrong person. You can stay with her, hope for change, try to suppress your disappointments, lie yourself that this is somehow normal and exists in every relationship. Or you can walk away, it will not be easy but then you have a chance to meet someone one day who will love you for who you are, who will not care in whose name is title of the house, who will support you, who will want to make you happy and be happy just because she is with you.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on November 17, 2013, 06:03:56 PM
Hi,

Thank you everyone for your kind and supportive comments.  I will respond at greater length this week. 

Best wishes,

Paul
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: flitabout62 on November 17, 2013, 06:39:17 PM

I have been helping her financially over the last year, paying for her travel and giving her money.  Her business is not doing well financially, so I offered to help.  Given my income, it has not been an issue. 

THE PROBLEM

HER RESPONSE
1) "You offer me nothing." (This comment led to a monumental argument; more about this later.)
2)  She wanted me to put the title in her name only.  (I told her the only possible way that will happen is after we together spend years building a NEW financial base.  I will not use funds from what I built in the past.  Nor, will I allow her to pass on my money to her daughter.) 

Paul

Paul,
No one here will ever understand this women better than you.  You are living these experiences. In my opinion, she seems like a very bright women who is very used to dealing with, what I think from description of her negotiating, is a bit of a cutthroat zero sum gain mentality of business.  Especially at the small and medium sized business arena. 
Do you plan on marrying her? Do you think you have a bonafide relationship?   From everything you've been gracious enough to tell us, you seem to be a good and generous guy who's in a difficult situation.  The question I have: does she see you as a good and generous guy?    If not, then why spend any more time with her? I would think that unrequited Love was only in novels? 
-flit
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: fathertime on November 17, 2013, 08:21:14 PM
Hey Paulie, I can't figure out why on earth you would still be with this lady...the negative traits you describe would annoy me so much more than the positives...Hey if you want to live like this then yeah marry the lady...but I would sure would not expect ANY real changes for the better..if anything she will probably become more difficult...NO WAY!! MOVE ON, and see what else is out there.


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Ooooops on November 18, 2013, 01:09:56 AM
wrong thread, sorry
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: 2tallbill on November 27, 2013, 12:33:21 AM
Hi,

Thank you everyone for your kind and supportive comments.  I will respond at greater length this week. 

Best wishes,

Paul


Paul, MissA and Gator have pointed out that you are chasing the wrong girl.
I have found myself in a situation where I was chasing the wrong girl too.


So now you need a pep talk. Forget about her. There are millions of unmarried
FSUW who are equally pretty and intelligent as the girl you have been pursuing.


There is a perfect future Mrs Paulie out there. Unfortunately you don't know
where she is. So you need to spend your efforts in finding Mrs Paulie.
There is no better way to forget an old Girl friend than spending time in a
new GF's arms.


You have just eliminated one girl who is not the future Mrs Paulie, now
you need to write a hundred girls ruthlessly sorting out girls who are not
what you seek. Just as ruthlessly you need to eliminate girls who are looking
for somebody who is not you.


I have been in your situation. I was emotionally devastated. But I didn't
give up. I kept looking and kept seeking.


Drop her, take some time off and get your head back to finding the future
Mrs Paulie, she is out there waiting for you to find her!




Udachi !


Bill

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on November 27, 2013, 04:32:47 AM
Hi Everyone,

I am sorry for not coming back to this site much sooner.  I have had a lot going on since my last post.  But, there is no excuse for not being here, especially given your kindness to me. 

MY UPDATE
Most important at this moment is dealing with my older son's (27) cancer.  He has a stubborn case of Stage II Hodgkin's Lymphoma.  He's been trying to rid himself of it since February.  We are all hoping for the best.
SORRY FOR THIS BAD NEWS

As for my girlfriend in Istanbul, I am still at it with her.  Honestly, it has been one heck of a ride for me.  I truly love this woman and I continually deal with it.  I am not a glutton for punishment, trust me. 

Since my last post, we have traveled back and forth several times.  Over the summer she was in San Francisco for two months.  She would have stayed longer, but found out her mom has pancreatic cancer and had to go to Istanbul, then Ukraine, then to Moscow.  Her mom is dying and this is her focus.  So, we are both dealing with cancer in the family. 
DISEASES GATHER YOU FOR A WHILE.

During her time with me, we had wonderful moments with one exception where we had a tiff over an issue that she responded to poorly.  I could have responded better myself.

I have been helping her financially over the last year, paying for her travel and giving her money.  Her business is not doing well financially, so I offered to help.  Given my income, it has not been an issue. 
IT WOULD BE AN ISSUE IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG WITH YOUR MONEY.


THE PROBLEM
I am still experiencing problems in two key areas - 1) her concept of how she wants to be supported financially 2) her often misguided ideas about love, marriage and relationships.  Her idea is, in her words 'traditional' in that she feels a man should take care of a woman.  I have no problem with that: I have taken care of the women I lived with.  BUT, a key phrase is 'creating a working relationship.'  She seems to lack that ability because she is stubborn. 
STUBBORN, AS MANY EXPERIENCED IS NOT AN ONLY PERSONAL FEATURE, BUT ALSO A CULTURAL ONE.

Over the last 18 months I have enjoyed many precious moments with her.  But there are moments she cancels it all out when she becomes scornful and critical.
I PERSONALLY WOULD NEVER SHARE TIME WITH A SCORNFUL RELATIVE, IT IS CLEAR THAT IS A BIG NO NO FOR ME, CONSIDERING A LTR. I CAN HANDLE A CRITICAL WOMAN, BECAUSE WHAT I DO CAN BE CRITICIZED AND I ACCEPT IT. I ACCEPT IT BECAUSE MY PARTNER HAS TO EXPRESS HERSELF AND I HAVE ALSO SOME THINGS SHE WANTS ME TO MODIFY. MY TASK IS FOR A PART TO MAKE SOME AMELIORATION TO BE A BETTER MAN AND A BETTER BELOVED. I HAVE SOME DOUBT THAT CRITICS IN YOUR GIRLFRIENDS' MOUTH ARE ALL TIME DONE IN THE WAY TO IMPROVE YOU BUT MORE TO FLAME YOU, WHICH IS (FOR ME) NOT ACCEPTABLE.
 (We've discussed this and she knows how I feel about it.)  In a word, my girlfriend is a 'perfectionist.'  I too have had these tendencies but learned to let go of it.  She also has a negative streak, can be hard to please, can be demanding and objectionable.  I am always looking at the bright side of life. 
SINCE I HAVE FOUND A POSITIVE, MERRY WOMAN, COMPARE TO ALL PREVIOUS AW (DEPRESSIVE, NEGATIVE, ALWAYS HAVING A PROBLEM WITH SOMEONE OR SOMETHING), I CAN TELL YOU THAT IS A HUGE IMPROVEMENT. IN FACT I THINK IT TELLS MORE ABOUT ME AND WHAT I HAVE DECIDED TO NOT ACCEPT THAN ABOUT GIRLS.

So, why am I with this woman you might wonder?  When she is kind, she can be the sweetest person, fun, entertaining, intellectual, humorous, silly,  and a wonderful lover.   

However, she has an idealistic view of how a man should be in relationship.   Or maybe I am not her type.
THIS TYPE OF IDEAL IS JUST A WAY TO MANIPULATE YOU, IT IS ONLY A PSYCHOLOGICAL PRESSURE.
 In describing her ideal of a relationship, she uses words like  'noble,' 'generous,' and 'sacrificial' to describe what she expects from a man.
She wants a man to 'win her.'
YOU ARE THE PRICE GUY, NOT HER ! HER TIME HAS GONE ! YOU ARE THE PRICE, NOT HER, THERE ARE PLENTY, BELIEVE ME, PLENTY GIRLS YOUNGER, MORE GORGEOUS AND NICER WHO WAIT YOU.
 (As for me, I want to be accepted for me: just a down-to-earth and humble person.)   

In October, I flew out to help with her dying mom.  Before I went, I spent three weeks studying pancreatic cancer with the intent of helping the family understand how to deal with it.  Her mom opted not to do any type of cancer therapy, so I decided to help in other ways through homeopathy.  It was  the top 10 most stressful five weeks I endured.  My point is that I don't think she get how much stress this caused ME.  THIS WAS VERY GENEROUS ABOUT YOU, BUT PERHAPS IT IS NOT YOUR ROLE.

WHAT I OFFERED
While I was there, I mentioned (obviously the wrong time to do this) that we should consider being together.  She said I was being abstract and needed something concrete.  So, while she was attending to her mom, I spent a day looking at my financial position and came up with an idea and presented it to her. 

Before I share the details, the context of my thinking was that she would keep her business in Istanbul, while moving to the US.  We both thought she could run the business from the US, with her traveling back occasionally.  (Now that she is in Ukraine attending to her mom who is close to dying, I believe it would not be possible for her to run her business from a distance:  her business is suffering without her there.)

My starting point offered to give her $2K cash a month, lease her a new car, cover medical, car insurance, phone, food, etc.  Essentially, she would not have any expenses.   Perhaps $2K is not much, but it is a beginning.  I would also, after a period of 3-6 months of getting adjusted, offer to help her establish her business here in the US.  She DOES have the ability to make money with her talents as a gymnastic trainer.
THE PITFALL HERE IS THAT SHE WILL BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE READY TO PUT A LOT OF CASH IN A BUSINESS WHICH BELONG TO HER. THIS IS HERE THE TRAP.
HELP HER TO FIND A JOB IN GYMNASTIC YES, BUT NO MORE.

She has a concern about housing, especially if we break up.  So, I came up with a couple of ideas. - 1) She sells the two apartments she has in Ukraine.  She could likely get between, $100-140K.  I would put up equal cash and we would buy a place for cash together.  The title would be (50/50) in her name and mine, in the name of my trust.  I said if I die before her, she could stay in the home until she dies and then the proceeds from the sale would go half to her daughter, the remaining half back to my estate for my children. OR, 2) She could use her money to buy a place in her and her daughter's name.  I would buy a house for cash and put it in my trust.  If I die, she could stay in it until she dies, the house remaining in the trust for my children. 

If we would divorce,
WHY WOULD YOU GET MARRIED ? IF SHE CAN COME BACK AND FORTH AND STAY WITHOUTH BEING MARRIED IT WILL BE BETTER FOR YOU, YOU WOULD AVOID TO BE CLEANED BY THE JUDGE IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG. ALL YOUR PLANS, EXPLAINED HERE, WILL HAVE LITTLE EFFECTS IN CASE OF DIVORCE WHEN THE JUDGE WILL PUT HIS NOSE IN IT, DEPENDING OF THE STATE YOU ARE (I CAN BE WRONG ABOUT THIS IN CASE OF PRENUP BUT WITH THIS WOMEN IT IS LIKELY YOU HAVE TO EXPECT A LOT OF FIGHT AROUND THIS TOPIC)
 in either #1 or #2, then she could stay in the property until she dies, with my estate keeping my initial investment for my kids. 

HER RESPONSE
1) "You offer me nothing." (This comment led to a monumental argument; more about this later.)
2)  She wanted me to put the title in her name only.  (I told her the only possible way that will happen is after we together spend years building a NEW financial base.  I will not use funds from what I built in the past.  Nor, will I allow her to pass on my money to her daughter.) 
I THINK YOU NEED TO KICK HER ASS. YOU HAVE INHERITED OF THIS WESTERN DEMEANOR TO BARGAIN AND BARGAIN TILL YOU PLEASE TO A WOMAN. WITH THIS ONE IT WOULD BE ENDLESS BECAUSE SHE HAS A DISTORTED IMAGE OF HERSELF (OR TO EXPLAIN IT AN OTHER WAY : SHE KEPT THE SAME IMAGE OF HER TWENTIES NOT CORRECTING BY THE LESSON OF LIVE). IT WILL BE ENDLESS TILL YOU KICK HER ASS BY SAYING "THAT'S IT, YOU LIKE OR DON'T LIKE (MEANING : "YOU TAKE OR YOUR LEAVE FOR YOUR LOSS").
YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO WIN A WOMAN, ENTIRELY, IF YOU ARE NOT READY, MINIMUM ONE TIME, TO LOOSE THE RELATIONSHIP. TO BE DEPENDANT SCREWS UP ALL YOUR FRAME AND LET HER THE CONTROL, WHICH SHE FEELS IT, AND WITH HER EXPERIENCE, SHE KNOWS HOW TO USE IT.

WHERE WE ARE NOW
She is in Ukraine taking care of her mom who will die soon, a week, a month or so.  In any event, her business will crumble at this rate.  We talk about being together, but do not go into detail.  Honestly, I am hoping a light bulb goes off in her head where she will realize just what IS important. 
YOU HAVE A FALSE IDEA OF HER AND YOU DON'T ACCEPT HER LIKE SHE REALLY IS. YOU WANT TO CHANGE HER AND YOU BELIEVE THAT IF SHE CHANGES YOUR RELATIONSHIP WILL BE PERFECT AND WITHOUT CLOUDS.
LET ME TELL YOU THAT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.
LET ME TELL YOU THAT I HAVE WAISTED ALMOST TWO DECADES OF MY LIFE WAITING PEOPLE TO CHANGE.
LET ME TELL YOU THAT SINCE I HAVE DECIDED TO MAKE BIG MOVES, NOT ONLY I HAVE CHANGED IN A MORE HAPPY WAY, BUT ALSO PEOPLE HAS CHANGED, SOMETIMES NOT ENTIRELY, BUT OFTEN IN A SIGNIFICANT WAY.
LET ME TELL YOU THAT I AM TODAY SURE THAT IT IS QUICKER TO FIND SOMEONE WHO MATCHES YOU BETTER, RATHER THAN TO CHANGE THE CLOSEST ONE YOU ARE ACTUALLY DATING.
LET ME TELL YOU THAT IT IS HARD TO GO AWAY AND TO GO AHEAD, BUT WHEN YOU CULTIVATE IT HONESTLY AND WITH RELEVANCE YOU ARE STRONGER AND YOU BUILD SOMETHING POSITIVE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE POWER TO SUBSTRACT YOURSELF FROM SOMETHING NEGATIVE.

We have been talking about her critical and demanding nature, but it only goes in at a surface level.  Again, I am hoping the changes she will go through, she might try to go deeper into her soul to understand that she has a good man by her side.  (Her last husband was a bum, a loser - a cigarette bootlegger who is on the run from England since 2008.  This she calls ‘noble.’) 
I RARELY HEARD AN FSU WOMAN VILIFYING A MAN, SHE DON'T GET AWARDS FROM THIS IMHO.

I talked about my situation with someone who knows me and she said I have a high tolerance for pain and stress and that I am a person who is committed.  She is right, but that does not mean I will stay the course with my girlfriend.  I said I would give this two years to work through; time is running out as we enter the 11th hour.  I am beginning to look at my other options. 
EACH TIME I SAID TO  MYSELF "OK I LET YOU SIX MONTHS TO ...... NOTHING, NO MIRACLE NEVER HAPPENED. I JUST GAVE THE KEYS OF MY LIFE TO AN HYPOTHETICAL FUTURE WITH A PAINFUL DAILY, WEEKLY OR MONTHY RELATIONSHIP"


Lastly, as always I’ve respected everyone’s thoughts, ideas and comments.  When you respond, please be kind, I’ve had enough negative criticism to last a lifetime.  Just being honest here. 

I will do my best to stay in this forum this time.  I believe there are good people here and I would enjoy becoming friends with all of you. 

Paul

PAUL YOU STAYED APART OF THIS FORUM, WHICH IS NOT TOO BAD CONSIDERING HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE HAMMERED. SO YOU DID THE RIGHT THING. AND PLEASE CONTINUE TO PROTECT YOU, ODDS ARE HARSH WITH YOU.
BUT HONESTLY I SEE NO IMPROVMENTS SINCE YOUR LAST POSTS WITH THIS LADY.
I MET SOME WOMEN WHO REALLY NEEDED A SHOCK, PERHAPS I HAD BEEN THIS SHOCK SOMETIMES, BUT THE BENEFITS OF THE SHOCK HAD NEVER AWARDED ME WHEN I NEEDED THIS WOMAN IN MY LIFE.
I WOULD LIKE  YOU TO AVOID TO STAY IN AN UNSATISFYING RELATIONSHIP.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on November 27, 2013, 04:44:46 AM
Paulie,
 
Please give her up!   She does not love you, and she never will.  If a woman loves you, she will want to be with you even if there is some risk. 
 
You have eliminated her risk.   The deal you described for a jointly owned home would be a good deal for her.   Yet, she said it was not enough.   
 
She has failed every litmus test.   Aren't you out of litmus paper by now?
 
Start over and find that special someone.  The special woman will require 33% of the work you are now doing, and you will feel 1000% better.
 
Your children and friends met her when she visited you?   Yes?  Your children and friends worry about your happiness and health.  We read what they said.   Please listen to them if not to us.



Start over and find that special someone.  The special woman will require 33% of the work you are now doing, and you will feel 1000% better
. :applaud:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Lily on November 27, 2013, 12:32:18 PM
THE PROBLEM
I am still experiencing problems in two key areas - 1) her concept of how she wants to be supported financially 2) her often misguided ideas about love, marriage and relationships.  Her idea is, in her words 'traditional' in that she feels a man should take care of a woman.  I have no problem with that: I have taken care of the women I lived with.  BUT, a key phrase is 'creating a working relationship.'  She seems to lack that ability because she is stubborn. 

Over the last 18 months I have enjoyed many precious moments with her.  But there are moments she cancels it all out when she becomes scornful and critical.  (We've discussed this and she knows how I feel about it.)  In a word, my girlfriend is a 'perfectionist.'  I too have had these tendencies but learned to let go of it.  She also has a negative streak, can be hard to please, can be demanding and objectionable.  I am always looking at the bright side of life. 

So, why am I with this woman you might wonder?  When she is kind, she can be the sweetest person, fun, entertaining, intellectual, humorous, silly,  and a wonderful lover.   

However, she has an idealistic view of how a man should be in relationship.   Or maybe I am not her type.  In describing her ideal of a relationship, she uses words like  'noble,' 'generous,' and 'sacrificial' to describe what she expects from a man.  She wants a man to 'win her.'  (As for me, I want to be accepted for me: just a down-to-earth and humble person.)   

***

WHAT I OFFERED
***

My starting point offered to give her $2K cash a month, lease her a new car, cover medical, car insurance, phone, food, etc.  Essentially, she would not have any expenses.   Perhaps $2K is not much, but it is a beginning.  I would also, after a period of 3-6 months of getting adjusted, offer to help her establish her business here in the US.  She DOES have the ability to make money with her talents as a gymnastic trainer.

She has a concern about housing, especially if we break up.  So, I came up with a couple of ideas. - 1) She sells the two apartments she has in Ukraine.  She could likely get between, $100-140K.  I would put up equal cash and we would buy a place for cash together.  The title would be (50/50) in her name and mine, in the name of my trust.  I said if I die before her, she could stay in the home until she dies and then the proceeds from the sale would go half to her daughter, the remaining half back to my estate for my children. OR, 2) She could use her money to buy a place in her and her daughter's name.  I would buy a house for cash and put it in my trust.  If I die, she could stay in it until she dies, the house remaining in the trust for my children. 

If we would divorce, in either #1 or #2, then she could stay in the property until she dies, with my estate keeping my initial investment for my kids. 

HER RESPONSE
1) "You offer me nothing." (This comment led to a monumental argument; more about this later.)
2)  She wanted me to put the title in her name only.  (I told her the only possible way that will happen is after we together spend years building a NEW financial base.  I will not use funds from what I built in the past.  Nor, will I allow her to pass on my money to her daughter.) 


At this point, I can hardly believe that this is an accurate description of the positions of both people. We cannot hear the other party speaking here. It is unbelievable for me that a woman can really be that demanding. I am not famiiar with how Turkish men treat women, though.  ;D
 
Nevertheless, I believe that Paulie describes it pretty much correctly. Then, if I got it right, the woman looks concerned about her child's future well being. I will not be surprised if I learn that she plans to spend a good part of her own monthly allowance on her children as well, or just to save them for her children' later use. Have you Paulie ever asked her about how would she spend her pocket money that you suggest to give her every month?
 
As far as I could notice, one of the big differences in the mentality between the Westerners and Russians would be the idea of doing everything possible for their children, even if it comes down to sacrificing their own needs, even the basic ones. Parents sacrifice in favour of their children, the grandparents sacrifice in favor of their grandchildren. Sometimes it comes down to a situation where the youngest in the family appears to be a kind of a 'general receiver'  ;D  and the oldest ones are the 'general providers'. I think that it would be a result of a long term scarcity of resources.
 
Last but not least, Russians have no idea what a legal trust means. Did you explained her that?
 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Boethius on November 27, 2013, 02:01:19 PM
I disagree.  If the situation is as described, she wants her child to benefit from his income, including by holding real estate in her name, to the exclusion of his children. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: tfcrew on November 27, 2013, 02:03:51 PM


    Just play them this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZjb4PCHUZ8
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on November 27, 2013, 02:19:09 PM
Hi Paul,


Staying in a relationship hoping someone will change for both to be happy is a recipe for misery. 


I can understand how some people will be infatuated with a concept that they don't want to give up.  It seems she ticks some boxes for you but unbearable in other categories.  Hoping she will change in those "other" categories is not something a relationship can be built on.


The foundation needs to be strong or everything else falls.


I have been in relationships with some great girls.  In the end, there was compatibility problems that couldn't keep us together.  It wasn't a matter of right or wrong.  We just weren't suppose to spend the rest of our lives together even if that is what we had wanted.


There is many other women out there that would appreciate what you have to offer.  No needing to win them over.  You will be happier in the long run with a more compatible woman.

I think you are just putting off the inevitable.  It is obvious you can't take her as she is and she expects more than you are willing to give.


The quicker you two break things off, the sooner the both of you can find someone more compatible.


Just my opinion of course.  :)   In matters such as this, I expect you to gloss over most and continue with this relationship until things get to the point of no return.   We sometimes need to learn our lessons for ourselves.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Lily on November 27, 2013, 02:36:52 PM
I disagree.  If the situation is as described, she wants her child to benefit from his income, including by holding real estate in her name, to the exclusion of his children.

Yes, as far as my understanding goes, she would like her child to benefit from HIS income as well.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Daveman on November 27, 2013, 09:38:26 PM

I think you are just putting off the inevitable.  It is obvious you can't take her as she is and she expects more than you are willing to give.

I'm not so sure about that...  Because...

Quote
In matters such as this, I expect you to gloss over most and continue with this relationship until things get to the point of no return.   We sometimes need to learn our lessons for ourselves.


I expect exactly the same and more.  He'll cave and give her exactly what she wants...
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Rational_Julia on November 28, 2013, 12:56:32 PM
Well, I don't like the situation the topicstarter described. My intuition is that she is a kind of golddigger. It is normal for people to share risks. And she behaves as if the topicstarter needs this marriage much more than she does. This is inequal positioning from the very beginning. If turks buy apartments for their women, why didn't they buy it for her since she is divorced from a Turk? I think they think she is not worth it and if you get her an apartment you will look like a fool. But it's just my feeling and opinion, maybe I am not right.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on November 28, 2013, 03:02:35 PM
He'll cave and give her exactly what she wants...

Not good if he does that.  There is something worse - she caves because she has no other options, and she enters the marriage with much resentment rather than a sense of commitment. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on December 07, 2013, 09:45:56 AM
  But there are moments she cancels it all out when she becomes scornful and critical. 

  She also has a negative streak, can be hard to please, can be demanding and objectionable.

"You offer me nothing." (This comment led to a monumental argument; more about this later.)

She wanted me to put the title in her name only.

critical and demanding nature



Based off this and other things you said earlier, you should understand why everybody says to let her go. Very few times at this forum everyone is in agreement. Your lady isn't worth it unless that is what you want. What you want is below in the next quote.



So, why am I with this woman you might wonder?  When she is kind, she can be the sweetest person, fun, entertaining, intellectual, humorous, silly,  and a wonderful lover.     



When that does happen, the problem here is you don't know if that is real. With the kind of financial help you offer women, you will find they all have those traits. Heck... offer us men here some financial assistance and we will be sweet, fun, entertaining, and a wonderful lover.



 I want to be accepted for me: just a down-to-earth and humble person.)   



Then close your wallet. Rich, famous, and powerful people are magnets for insincere people. Part of the problem is you using what you have to attract people. Challenge yourself and close your wallet. Attract women with who you are, not what you own. Even if I had a billion dollars, I would travel to the FSU, keep my wallet closed, meet women on the streets or cafes and strike up conversation and maybe invite them for a walk in the park. If I can't win them over with who I am, so be it.


Honestly, I am hoping a light bulb goes off in her head where she will realize just what IS important. 



We are hoping a light bulb goes off in your head that you realize what you're dealing with. For every minute you waste with this women, you are missing out with a wonderful woman who would accept you for the way you are. How long are you going to tell your lady who you are and to accept it before you realize that she didn't accept it and never will. Your #1 goal is wanting love from her. Her #1 goal is wanting financial guarantees. Both of you aren't going to change your goals so move on.


When you respond, please be kind, I’ve had enough negative criticism to last a lifetime.   



If you want kind responses, bring us positive news about a good woman in your life. Based on you the words you write about your lady, you know people are going to criticize. Your fears about your lady are confirmed. What are you going to do next in your life to get rid of the stress and pain and get into a happy place?





Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: skidoddle on December 10, 2013, 07:39:12 AM
Hello Paulie,

SKI here and I have been married to a RW for over 15 yrs..

We fell in LOVE and that was it. The financial issues at first never came up

And I am very very well off.

My wife signed a prenup before I married her and she saw the list of my assets. There was not
a word or issue whatsover.

Russian WOMEN RESPECT STABILITY and a MAN that can provide that.

My wife wanted the EMOTIONAL SECURITY as well as all that comes with it FINANCIAL

You have said>>>>

Boethius, I appreciate your comment.  I think the trust issue is a big one for her.  She was really burned in her last marriage to a man who was financially irresponsible and compromised their financial security.  I do not wish to pay the price for that one.

So far to date, I have helped her financially.  I pay for all of her (and her daughter's) travel; I've given her a computer, bought clothing for her and have given her about $5,000 towards her miscellaneous expenses.

I have taken care of my last wife - she never worked and her divorce settlement was quite hefty.  So, I am not unused to taking care of a woman. 



It seems she is coming into your relationship with an AGENDA

And I would not hand over ONE DIME TO HER. Here is WHY>>>>

Sorry I have to be BLUNT but it is apparant she has other ISSUEs and AGENDA

Protection and Stabilty and who cannot BLAME her if she has been burned.

I just wrote another POST on interviewing RWs which I did in 1995-1996 to find my wife
and I looked for this AGENDA in the women I interviewed. If they had one I WAS GONE!!!

I would NEVER get messed up in a PAST PROBLEM that a women has been involved with that
now EFFECTs her WHOLE OUTLOOK on LIFE.

Accept it or MOVE ON > it appears to me she will not GIVE UP HER FINANCIAL POSTION and trade
it off FOR YOU

There is a POSSIBLE SOLUTION >>>>>>

Do not ask her to GIVE UP and TRADE>>>> COME UP WITH AN OUT OF THE BOX PLAN > IT MAYBE THERE BUT IT WILL TAKE SOME REAL THINKING AND NEGOTIATING ON BOTH YOUR PARTs

However I would really make certain you know this WOMEN VERY WELL.

It seems you have some money if you can support a women with $100k a year!!!!!!

I think you need a financial planner!!! First and Foremost!!!!!!

I would NEVER and I mean NEVER put that kind of money down on a PERSON that I did not know
well.

I do alot or did in the past alot of biz transactions involving large sums of money. I always investigated
any new person I did any large tansactions with. $100k I would have a very detailed backgound
investigation on this person first and foremost.  I deal with alot of security issues so I know there are alot of lets say UNDESIRABLE PEOPLE OUT THERE> they are called BAD GUYS!!!

No Offense but MONEY IS BUISNESS and should not get MIXED in with a FAMILY RELATIONSHIP

My 3 cents

SKIDODDLE
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Saltheart on December 23, 2013, 01:04:26 AM
Paul,


You're a nice man.  You're a giver and she's a taker, just as FP said.  Think about that.  She isn't even a matcher which his a step up from taker.


Guess what.  It's not supposed to be this hard.


One of the wonderful aspects about this journey of grinding a compatible mate is you get to be choosey and picky if I may say so.  Find a giver man....find someone who is thrilled to be with you and loves you exactly the way you are.  Keep your financial info on the down low...not coming off as a pauper but that you're "ok".


Please don't do this to yourself.  Find a healthy well balanced girl.  They are out there.


How old are you btw?  Send in PM please. 


Rip off the band aid - feel the pain and start again.  The biggest lesson to learn from this is realizing you have needs too, even as a giver.  Find a giver dude.  Let it be written on your tombstone.  "Thank god I found a giver"


Carry on and good luck.


-Salty
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Saltheart on December 23, 2013, 01:07:29 AM
Oh...and Paulie...guess what, you may not think so but there's countless women who would love to have the opportunity to be with a nice man and have a full, enriched life.  Don't let the time pass - every year your ball bag drops 1/8th of an inch.  Get moving!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Daveman on December 23, 2013, 01:14:29 AM
  Let it be written on your tombstone.  "Thank god I found a giver"



Especially if he has a tombstone from what she gave him!







Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jazztropy on December 26, 2013, 07:10:42 PM
Oh...and Paulie...guess what, you may not think so but there's countless women who would love to have the opportunity to be with a nice man and have a full, enriched life.  Don't let the time pass - every year your ball bag drops 1/8th of an inch.  Get moving!

What's a ball bag?

Good luck, Paulie.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: rambler on December 29, 2013, 10:31:25 AM
If you put a property in her name she can divorce you and still get half of YOUR assets plus the apartment, plus alimony and child support. Given that kind of reward the temptation will be irresistible.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on December 29, 2013, 11:48:59 AM
What's a ball bag?


Container for family jewels.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Muzh on December 30, 2013, 11:38:58 AM
If you put a property in her name she can divorce you and still get half of YOUR assets plus the apartment, plus alimony and child support. Given that kind of reward the temptation will be irresistible.

First thing I did was to put the house on both our names and named her the beneficiary of my pension/insurance. Literally, every asset I had was now ours.
 
That was 14 years ago.
 
Surprise, we are still married.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: tfcrew on December 30, 2013, 06:00:54 PM
If you put a property in her name she can divorce you and still get half of YOUR assets plus the apartment, plus alimony and child support. Given that kind of reward the temptation will be irresistible.

Now what planet is this on?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: tfcrew on December 30, 2013, 06:04:32 PM

First thing I did was to put the house on both our names and named her the beneficiary of my pension/insurance. Literally, every asset I had was now ours.
 
 

In Texas, it all is anyway.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on December 30, 2013, 08:45:55 PM
In Texas, it all is anyway.

Really?

I thought there was the concept of 'assets acquired before vs assets acquired after' marriage.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on February 08, 2014, 03:35:05 AM
Hello Everyone,

Well it is DONE, OVER, FINISHED.   I literally kicked her to the curb.  I finally had enough.  I always knew on an intellectual level this was not going to work.  It was the emotional level in which I was not 'sober' enough to get past the alluring nature of this grifter, this gold-digger. 

I want to thank each and everyone of you for your kindness, thoughtful comments and your continual support and not booting me off of here because I was being so intransigent for not taking everyone's advice. 

My friends, family and even business associates are relieved.  I am actually realizing how much energy has been sapped from me by this evil woman.  She is beauty and the beast:  beauty on the outside and a beast on the inside...a soulless individual as vacuous as they come. Oh she is charming alright, but revolting on the turn of a dime.

I really had a hard and expensive lesson - emotionally, spiritually, psychologically and financially.  Thankfully I came to my senses.  Otherwise I would have been broke - not financially but physically.  This definitively has affected my health. 

Time for a break at this point.  I will now move forward and seek time to heal.  Then I will begin to lay the groundwork to find a woman who has a heart, is kind, grateful, patient and compassionate.   

I will stay close to this site.  Thanks again!   
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on February 08, 2014, 05:20:57 AM

Well it is DONE, OVER, FINISHED.   

Thank goodness.   :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:


Quote
I literally kicked her to the curb.
 

Perhaps sounds harsh to some, yet EXORCISMS are never gentle.   


IMO, it was not only justifiable, it was the only way a man with your gentle and empathetic ways could rid yourself of such women.  :clapping:

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Gator on February 08, 2014, 05:44:26 AM

Time for a break at this point.  I will now move forward and seek time to heal.  Then I will begin to lay the groundwork to find a woman who has a heart, is kind, grateful, patient and compassionate.   

I will stay close to this site.  Thanks again!

Excellent.  If you decide to pursue FSUW again, a couple words of advice that seem appropriate for you based on what we know/assume.

DO NOT FEEL SORRY FOR A FSUW.  If you do, she is either desperate or playing you.  Both are reasons to walk away IMO.

DO NOT INTRODUCE FINANCIAL MATTERS EARLY IN THE RELATIONSHIP.   First win her heart and earn her trust and confidence (confident that you are the type of man who takes care of his woman, something done with actions, not words).

DELETE "GRATEFUL" from your list above and REPLACE IT WITH "DOES NOT FEEL ENTITLED."  Maybe I am just misinterpreting your words, or thinking you may overreact to the bad experience.   The FSUW I liked had a strong personality and much pride.  They certainly appreciated when I did something for them but never felt indebted. 

ADD "LOVES ME" to your above list.  As we always say, you will know it.    This is far more than being committed to the relationship and entering marriage in good faith.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Faux Pas on February 08, 2014, 07:49:56 AM

Time for a break at this point.  I will now move forward and seek time to heal.  Then I will begin to lay the groundwork to find a woman who has a heart, is kind, grateful, patient and compassionate.   

I will stay close to this site.  Thanks again!

Congrats for the moment of clarity that help you to reach that decision Paulie. The woman is a Succubus. She could have been from any country. Hopefully, the lesson you've learned you'll take to heart as well as Gator's advice above. There is no excuse for bad behavior. No matter how beautiful, hot or seemingly right intentions.

Take all the time you need. I suspect it's a lot but remember. The surest way to get over a heartbreak is to put yourself back in the game.

Good luck
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: BillyB on February 08, 2014, 09:07:17 AM
  I finally had enough.  I always knew on an intellectual level this was not going to work.  It was the emotional level in which I was not 'sober' enough to get past the alluring nature of this grifter, this gold-digger. 



To make sure you don't get in the same situation again, re-read this thread again and pick up on some of the good advice. Also you must identify the problems that got you trouble. I don't believe emotions were all of your problems. I think your little head got involved and made some of the decisions. If the woman were ugly, you probably wouldn't have tolerated her behavior as much as you did with this one. Next time a woman shows you bad behavior, no matter how beautiful she is, do not tolerate it, walk away. She'll respect you for it.


I really had a hard and expensive lesson - emotionally, spiritually, psychologically and financially.  Thankfully I came to my senses.  Otherwise I would have been broke - not financially but physically.  This definitively has affected my health. 



Before making a major decision, always remember what John Wayne said, "Life is tough, it's tougher when you're stupid."


I want to thank each and everyone of you for your kindness, thoughtful comments and your continual support and not booting me off of here because I was being so intransigent for not taking everyone's advice. 



No need to thank us but we do accept all major credit cards and Western Union!
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: CanadaMan on February 08, 2014, 11:56:47 AM
Hello Everyone,

Well it is DONE, OVER, FINISHED.   I literally kicked her to the curb. 

Congratulations! I wish you a speedy recovery.

Just one thing though.
We can't let you get away with the above teaser and nothing more.
Please tell us the story of when, where and how you kicked her to the curb.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Paulie on February 08, 2014, 12:39:41 PM
Congratulations! I wish you a speedy recovery.

Just one thing though.
We can't let you get away with the above teaser and nothing more.
Please tell us the story of when, where and how you kicked her to the curb.

I will be happy to tell the story, especially since I've told it all along.  I will do that over the end of the weekend.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Patagonie on February 08, 2014, 01:49:50 PM
I think that now you are recovering.
Some good posts here, like always. And when you will be really ok, come here again to read all posts. I am sure that all had been written but you missed some importants points.
Please tell us the details of the end and all you kept in your mind, it will be useful for newbies. And it isn't only a story about a meeting between an american an a FSU lady, it all also about blindness and it involvies a LOT of guys. I personnaly see (and i had been so stupid myself so many time) and saw a LOT, a LOT of men of all ages (and some successful, smart) trapped in damaging relationships. Incredible.

Pat
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on February 08, 2014, 04:30:02 PM
Best to you Paulie.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Jumper on February 08, 2014, 05:20:17 PM
Paulie,
It may sting now , but its good to hear you moved on from what appeared an unhealthy non compatible  relationship.


Good luck in the future.

Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: calmissile on February 08, 2014, 05:23:28 PM
Paulie,

Glad you finally made the only logical decision.  It only hurts for a while.  You'll get over it sooner than you think.   Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: JohnDearGreen on February 08, 2014, 06:12:35 PM
I will be happy to tell the story, especially since I've told it all along.  I will do that over the end of the weekend.
I would ask for a pic of her, but we might have a couple dozen guys making her a new guarantee.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Daveman on February 08, 2014, 09:51:37 PM
...  He'll cave and give her exactly what she wants...

Well, I have to admit I am a little surprised. Good for you Paul. It won't be long before you really wonder what the hell you were thinking all along.  Becoming entangled with one who isn't, er, the best match happens to most everyone at least once. 
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Slumba on February 08, 2014, 10:07:55 PM
I would ask for a pic of her, but we might have a couple dozen guys making her a new guarantee.

Yes, because everyone on the site is a moron  :cluebat:
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Lily on February 09, 2014, 09:12:41 AM
I would ask for a pic of her, but we might have a couple dozen guys making her a new guarantee.

I'd love to see her pic, too! Just curious about how beautiful a woman could be in order to make an American man fall for her that badly.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: SilverSong on February 09, 2014, 10:21:02 AM
I can understand the troubles and frustration of topic starter, he had lots of pain and been hurt a lot. I read all topic and was sad about all unpleasant moments.
But to ask him to post a photo of someone without her consent is legally inappropriate. This is an invasion of privaе life, no matter how much that woman was not nice with Paul.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: Shadow on February 09, 2014, 10:39:36 AM
It is not really appropriate to congratulate anyone with breaking off a relationship, but I am happy you managed to get yourself out.
As for the future, I hope that you will join those who will tell that a true relationship with FSUW does not take anything, but only gives rewards for whatever you will put in to it.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on February 09, 2014, 11:09:11 AM
I can understand the troubles and frustration of topic starter, he had lots of pain and been hurt a lot. I read all topic and was sad about all unpleasant moments.
But to ask him to post a photo of someone without her consent is legally inappropriate. This is an invasion of privaе life, no matter how much that woman was not nice with Paul.

It may be inappropriate, but you can find pictures in the public domain of just about anyone.  Sharing such a picture on here is not illegal, just possibly in poor taste.  I agree with your sentiments, just not the jurisprudence.  Welcome aboard.  Introduce yourself.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: SilverSong on February 09, 2014, 11:36:45 AM
Quote
It may be inappropriate, but you can find pictures in the public domain of just about anyone.  Sharing such a picture on here is not illegal, just possibly in poor taste.  I agree with your sentiments, just not the jurisprudence.  Welcome aboard.  Introduce yourself.

Pictures in public domain were put there when their owners were willing to do this.
I am not that woman,  :), I bet, if I would her, my posts would sound different.  ;D
And yes, this would be in poor taste.
In my country to put photos of someone without consent is illegal. I don't like to offtop the main discussion further though.
But there is a solution - everyone can ask the photos in private correspondence. Personally me - I would not ask any of his nor her photos.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: jone on February 09, 2014, 11:56:45 AM
What country might that be?
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: SilverSong on February 09, 2014, 12:04:08 PM
Russia.

http://faq.pravo.ru/view/9949/

The article is in Russian language.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: ML on February 09, 2014, 02:48:25 PM
Just curious about how beautiful a woman could be in order to make an American man fall for her that badly.

Doesn't have to be a beautiful woman for this to happen.
Title: Re: Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...
Post by: 2tallbill on February 25, 2014, 10:54:55 PM

I'd love to see her pic, too! Just curious about how beautiful a woman could be in order to make an American man fall for her that badly.

NOTE: this is not in reference to Paulie

Men often times fall for the wrong women. Women do the same.
Some men will let a woman walk all over them. Some women
stay with men who beat them. It's cRaZy

I can't tell you why men or women allow themselves to allow
this to happen.

Udachi !

Bill