If you asked me: "what's not to like in Ukraine?"

[mies]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_qJcGGRnHSY[/youtube]

in the video: young man is beating a girl in a cafe, daytime. Yong man is a member of city council in Lugansk, son of member of Ukrainian parliament. His father is already famous for the following event: http://ipm.ua/news/donetsk/56932.html (his bodyguard had beaten up a road policeman, road policeman was fired after the incident - - recording of phonecall from MP who promises that he is going to drive around with bodyguards and beat all policemen and "crash them all").

So what's not to like?
politician, a protege of his MP dad, is harassing a girl in the cafe. After she refuses his advances - he gets aggressive and hits her in face/eye. Girl hits him with empty bottle in response to his aggression. He beats her up. Twice. Second part of the video she apparently lies on the floor semi-conscious. While her friends, the manager of cafe, and the attacker are discussing her fate.
Everyone else in the cafe pays no attention. Some dude is scratching his ass while the attacker drags screaming girl by hair and hand through the cafe hall. Young woman steps over the beaten unconscious girl to get into "glamorous" cafe. Girl's female friends leave her alone while a guy attacks her. His male friends does not let a female friend protect the victim, and allows attacker finish his revenge.
The director/manager of the cafe scolds girls, including the victim. When the attacker returns to beat her again - manager leaves. Nobody cares to help poor girl. Nobody intrudes. No one calls the police.

[Boethius]

I suppose they are all concerned with retribution from someone with power (the politician or his MP father).  Even calling the police, little will happen now unless the media makes it a big issue.

It reminds me of a story during the Yuschenko years, when two MP's were hunting humans.  Everyone was afraid to say anything until they killed the son of a babushka.  He was her only child, she had nothing to lose, and she made this very public.  One was arrested, the other went into hiding.  I think he's been found, but neither has faced trial yet, and they hunted, and murdered, several people for sport.

There is also the story of Tymoshenko's lawyer.  He was making a speech about the lack of decency of her accusers, how they have no morals, when his wife came in and said he was one to lecture anyone about morals.  She then reported how he'd thrown her out of their apartment with three kids, and refused to pay her any alimony.  He had started many investigations of his wife to shut her up, so she didn't enforce her alimony.  However, this time, because she said this in front of a newspaper, and was interviewed, he finally couldn't threaten her anymore.

Cockroaches don't like the light.

[Rubicon]

I can guarantee you that if I was there the attacker of this young lady would be unconscious.  After I knocked him unconscious I would probably poor some Vodka down his throat so he would have a hard time remembering who did it.  Then I would warn the manager to mind his own business, and I would help the girl to get a taxi and leave.  After that I would probably quietly leave town. 

[Rubicon]

This is also sadly a big difference between Ukraine and USA.  I know for a fact in the USA that almost every woman in sight of this incident would be jumping on the attackers back and jamming her finger nails into his eye sockets.  The manager of the restaurant would spray him with mace or if he did not have that just hit him over the head with a large hot pan, then rub some tobasco sauce into his eye sockets, then kick him in the balls, the head and for one last good effect kick him in the ribs.  I think I about covered it.  I might break one of his arms for the pure pleasure of it, or punch him in the kidneys repeatedly until he had blood in his urine.  I can think of some other stuff, but I will hold back for now.

[Boethius]

Well, there is the Kitty Genovese case, or more recently, this -

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/e/a/1998/07/16/NEWS13779.dtl

I do think in a public place in the US, people would call the police, and wouldn't step over someone in a restaurant.

[Rubicon]

Yes, and notice where that happened--San Francisco.  Need I say anymore??  It would never happen like that in the Midwest, or in any smaller city with traditional men and women like where I live. 

[Boethius]

 I listened to the link of the father (and my ears are red!).  Now I understand why no one did anything.  You don't know what will happen to you if you interfere.   You could be taken,  beaten, and disappear.   The son is the mirror of the father.  What he did to the girl, the father does to the police.


My husband always says “You can’t give them power.” and, "нема гірше пана нiж з хамa". 


Roughly, there is no worse "boss/leader" than a boor.

[Boethius]

So he was already known to police, and was appointed to his position by his father (at age 19). 

mies, you may like some of the comments -

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/1237123-protiv-syna-nardepa-landika-vozbuzhdeno-delo-obnovleno

[mendeleyev]

As father of 3 girls, the youngest is just one year from finishing her degree at Moscow State University, I was very upset to see this. That could be one of my girls if not for the grace of God.

Like others here have said, had any of us been present that day, the young brute would likely be not long for his world.

[Gator]

I can guarantee you that if I was there the attacker of this young lady would be unconscious. 

I would hope so because this "young son of a politician" fought like a girl (wild swing, no power, hair pulling).  However, be careful before your macho gets you into trouble -  some of the brutes can really fight including high kicks to the head.

[mies]

So he was already known to police, and was appointed to his position by his father (at age 19). 

mies, you may like some of the comments -

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/1237123-protiv-syna-nardepa-landika-vozbuzhdeno-delo-obnovleno

yes, i read the comments both on pravda.com.ua and in Korrespondent.
Overall, people agree that now it must be convenient for someone to make news out of this event, otherwise the video would not have made it to youtube/public access, and that the offender is known in his city for this sort of behavior.
Another twist is that he is charged with "hooliganism", and penalty for him will most likely be a modest fine. Whereas what he really did qualifies as intentionally causing a "grievous bodily harm," with penalty being much more severe including 5-8 years of prison time. So most likely his dad is being "encouraged" to cooperate for mutual benefit, and once he agrees, the son will pay tiny fine ("tiny fine" relative to his income level, given that he is driving Bentley).

[mies]

I would hope so because this "young son of a politician" fought like a girl (wild swing, no power, hair pulling).  However, be careful before your macho gets you into trouble -  some of the brutes can really fight including high kicks to the head.

there were few more people with him, and quite likely some of his friends if not him, - had guns.

[Ade]

there were few more people with him, and quite likely some of his friends if not him, - had guns.

I think that Rubicon has no real experience with groups of powerful men that are amoral, nasty to the core, and are probably armed. Bravado like he mentions would have probably got him mutilated or killed there. Although I agree, if this were in Europe, a lot of guys would have stepped in and "shown this guy the door", but in less hospitable parts of the world, I think the wise would put their life before their hero complex, at least until the situation looked life threatening for the girl.

[Rubicon]

I think that Rubicon has no real experience with groups of powerful men that are amoral, nasty to the core, and are probably armed. Bravado like he mentions would have probably got him mutilated or killed there. Although I agree, if this were in Europe, a lot of guys would have stepped in and "shown this guy the door", but in less hospitable parts of the world, I think the wise would put their life before their hero complex, at least until the situation looked life threatening for the girl.

I know that you're wrong in who I have had dealings with, and I don't need to go into any detail here regarding it.  Regardless, this boy could have been easily and quickly put into a state of being unconscious. 

[Rubicon]

I listened to the link of the father (and my ears are red!).  Now I understand why no one did anything.  You don't know what will happen to you if you interfere.   You could be taken,  beaten, and disappear.   The son is the mirror of the father.  What he did to the girl, the father does to the police.


My husband always says “You can’t give them power.” and, "нема гірше пана нiж з хамa". 


Roughly, there is no worse "boss/leader" than a boor.

Your husband is correct; you cannot give them power.  Consider the consequences of doing that.  The most important thing the bystanders could have done is to all film it with their cameras so that there would be more then one witness to it.  Hopefully also if you live in a town long enough you know at least one honest policeman personally who you can call, and call him immediately.

[Ade]

I know that you're wrong in who I have had dealings with, and I don't need to go into any detail here regarding it.  Regardless, this boy could have been easily and quickly put into a state of being unconscious.

From my experience, it's surprisingly difficult to put a grown man into a "state of being unconscious" unless you hit him with something blunt, heavy and which could be lethal. Of course, if you happen to be a professional boxer, it makes it easier.

Add to the several friends of his that will undoubtedly get in your way, I think your talk is more fantasy than reality.

[Boethius]

I know that you're wrong in who I have had dealings with, and I don't need to go into any detail here regarding it.  Regardless, this boy could have been easily and quickly put into a state of being unconscious.

I doubt it.  I am fairly certain he was high at the time, and that the guy behind him is his bodyguard, likely, armed.

There would be zero consequences if a rich man's son, or his bodyguard, murdered someone in a bar.

[Boethius]

Your husband is correct; you cannot give them power. 

By "them",  he meant former apparatchiks.  That is who holds power in Ukraine today.  They were pigs then, they're pigs now.  The only difference is, then, they had Moscow to keep them under some semblance of control.

Hopefully also if you live in a town long enough you know at least one honest policeman personally who you can call, and call him immediately.

In one of the links mies provided, the boy's father, an MP, is cursing (using really low level, vulgar language) at a policeman, likely, an officer, and telling them how he will wipe the police out, destroy them, etc.

[Rubicon]

From my experience, it's surprisingly difficult to put a grown man into a "state of being unconscious" unless you hit him with something blunt, heavy and which could be lethal. Of course, if you happen to be a professional boxer, it makes it easier.

Add to the several friends of his that will undoubtedly get in your way, I think your talk is more fantasy than reality.

Ade, you do not need to be a professional boxer to be trained in MMA; in Thai Kwon Do or in Kung Fu and Jui Jitsu and therefore be skilled at knowing where pressure points are on the human body and how to quickly strike them and then (if need be, but often not) exert pressure on his wind pipe to pass him out.  No blunt heavy lethal objects needed.  The boy fought like a little sissy coward/bully and his friends were not close enough to react quickly enough to what would happen to him and they could also be dealt with in any event.  If the girls life was being threatened what would you do??

[Rubicon]

By "them",  he meant former apparatchiks.  That is who holds power in Ukraine today.  They were pigs then, they're pigs now.  The only difference is, then, they had Moscow to keep them under some semblance of control.

In one of the links mies provided, the boy's father, an MP, is cursing (using really low level, vulgar language) at a policeman, likely, an officer, and telling them how he will wipe the police out, destroy them, etc.

So what if he curses at the police??  I am very certain that there are some police there who have the courage to stand up to bully's like this guy and his son.  Maybe it would take some poking around, and maybe one would need to either hire them on retainer or hire your own roof on retainer who does not like this particular MP and who is willing to put it all on the line to help stop his abuses of power.  The most important thing to do in any fight like this in the first place is to have the will and resources to see it through to the end.  Consider the alternative of doing nothing.

[Rubicon]

In any event we can see why there were bystanders who left the scene.  We have enough of those type right here who would find any convenient excuse not to help this young woman.  It's always going to be the same in places like this if nobody is willing to stand up for what they know to be morally right, but instead make all sorts of excuses why they cannot and leave as quickly as possible.

[Boethius]

So what if he curses at the police??  I am very certain that there are some police there who have the courage to stand up to bully's like this guy and his son.  Maybe it would take some poking around, and maybe one would need to either hire them on retainer or hire your own roof on retainer who does not like this particular MP and who is willing to put it all on the line to help stop his abuses of power.  The most important thing to do in any fight like this in the first place is to have the will and resources to see it through to the end.  Consider the alternative of doing nothing.

Very naive view.  It wasn't just cursing.  He was threatening their lives.  He is a powerful politician in the region, and no policeman is going to take him on. 

[Ade]

Ade, you do not need to be a professional boxer to be trained in MMA; in Thai Kwon Do or in Kung Fu and Jui Jitsu and therefore be skilled at knowing where pressure points are on the human body and how to quickly strike them and then (if need be, but often not) exert pressure on his wind pipe to pass him out.  No blunt heavy lethal objects needed. 

Yes, a very good and powerful mixed martial arts practitioner could perhaps do the "one punch knock out" if they were experienced enough beyond play fighting to keep their cool in a real situation and not lose their head. Assuming you could get near enough.

After a demo of taking down 6 guys twice his size, a very, very good JJ teacher from Hong Kong once told me/us that the best defense against a knife was to run away as fast as you could.

And I still say a quick knock out is a rare thing. Perhaps you've been watching too many Hollywood movies.

The boy fought like a little sissy coward/bully and his friends were not close enough to react quickly enough to what would happen to him and they could also be dealt with in any event.  If the girls life was being threatened what would you do??

You are assuming you'd be closer than his friends. You are also assuming they wouldn't be proficient in some sort of MA too and unarmed. Given he is a Ukrainian politician, I think those assumptions would be wrong.

What would I have done? I'd like to think I would have tried to diffuse the situation with some humour and gotten the girl out of there. From past experience though what would have probably happened is that I would have lost my temper and jumped in without thinking; and that would most likely have been the stupidest thing I could have done as it would have just escalated into some real violence until someone got seriously hurt.

To me, it didn't look like the girl was in a life threatening situation. It wasn't pretty, and she'd be bruised and sore for sure, but alive. Escalating the situation with violence could lead to a much less wholesome outcome for all concerned.

And yes, I know how it must gall you to hear this. You like the idea of being a hero I guess. And in the West, more than likely in most cafe brawl situations you could be, but, there are situations where brute force just won't cut it.

[Ade]

In any event we can see why there were bystanders who left the scene.  We have enough of those type right here who would find any convenient excuse not to help this young woman.  It's always going to be the same in places like this if nobody is willing to stand up for what they know to be morally right, but instead make all sorts of excuses why they cannot and leave as quickly as possible.

You are funnier than you know and, as usual, you're showing up the lack of grey matter.

But what the hell, next time you're in Ukraine by my guest and look up this guy and his friends and practice what you preach. Be sure to report back once you are out of hospital.

[Rubicon]

Very naive view.  It wasn't just cursing.  He was threatening their lives.  He is a powerful politician in the region, and no policeman is going to take him on.

No man is above the law if the citizens are willing to risk their lives to enforce it.  If on the other hand this is the norm then you get what you deserve.