What Language if any are you choosing to learn for relationship with FSW?

[Trenchcoat]

Just out of interest wondering what languages guys are choosing to learn these days in seeking a relationship with a FSW. This can be any level even if just a few words or if previously learnt some of the language and already with a FSW.

[Patagonie]

Considering the money and the time I have spent to learn Russian I stick on this language.
However when a woman pushes herself to speak English I let her doing the job because that's an IOI.
Now what happens is that some women push me to switch to Ukrainian. I don't see any reason to do such a thing, especially considering that I am not Ukrainian.

[Trenchcoat]

Considering the money and the time I have spent to learn Russian I stick on this language.
However when a woman pushes herself to speak English I let her doing the job because that's an IOI.
Now what happens is that some women push me to switch to Ukrainian. I don't see any reason to do such a thing, especially considering that I am not Ukrainian.

That's an excellent point Pat. I can see some awkwardness with learning/speaking Russian to some ladies from Ukraine but for me to learn Ukrainian means investing in a language/skill that is mostly only of use in Ukraine and a redundant skill benefit elsewhere - aside from the refugee situation of course. Even in Ukraine it's only spoken by perhaps two thirds to three quarters of the population at most is the online figures I see. Bizarrely Zelensky himself is a Russian speaker as a first language and at least before the invasion has little appetite to push the Ukrainian language from what I've read. I'm not knocking those that are learning Ukrainian, they will likely be well thought of by many Ukrainian women that speak Ukrainian (or mostly). If starting from day one again or near as I might punt to learnt Ukrainian instead of Russian particularly if starting given the present situation but I would essentially be placing my eggs squarely in the Ukrainian basket. Given that visiting Ukraine is awkward at the moment and who knows how long for that to my mind is a high stakes gamble.

Apparently learning Ukrainian to fluency is roughly 1100 hours where Russian is about 1200 hours or so is the online figure I've googled, so not a lot in it. Some say Ukrainian is easier to learn for various reasons a few Russian. I'm guessing it may depend on the person. I tried to learn some Ukrainian, it's ok but I felt more at home with Russian, I think it's more how my mind works. That and I kind of felt that sone Ukrainian words seemed similar to Russian or similar sounding but could mean different things so I didn't really want the confusion. So in trying to please all I feared pleasing none and a bit of a mess of it all.

While I have much sympathy and support for Ukraine and see why some see value in learning Ukrainian there's no telling how this war might end. Putler seems to be committed to the long haul no doubt hoping Ukraine will crack one way or another over time. I'm not one for wanting to pay for visas to visit Russia but there's other Russian speaking places to go, so for me while anything Russian is not popular at the moment for me I feel its currently an unsavoury choice I must stick with.

[Patagonie]

All depends on your personal talent and previous languages learned.
But we are more between 2000/5000 hours if you want to really be fluent in Russian (C1 level at least, C2 or like a Russian in the best case).
 
Add few hundreds hours to learn Ukrainian, IF you master Russian.
But I think for most of us, it's a bad thing to learn those two languages at the same time. It will be unproductive.
 
I have crossed some students who were not capable to even say more than three sentences after studying Russian for three years.

[ML]

Considering the money and the time I have spent to learn Russian I stick on this language.
However when a woman pushes herself to speak English I let her doing the job because that's an IOI.
Now what happens is that some women push me to switch to Ukrainian. I don't see any reason to do such a thing, especially considering that I am not Ukrainian.

Pat, I'll tell you some info that probably many already know.

The Russian terrorist invasion of  Ukraine has COMPLETELY changed the attitude regarding use of Russian language by ethnic Ukrainians and maybe even by many ethnic Russians living in Ukraine.  Previously, most outside of western Ukraine didn't care at all which language you used.

There is a group of Ukrainians here in our college town that we associate with regularly.

Most of these persons grew up in mainly Russian speaking households, even as they are mostly of Ukrainian ethnicity.  Several of them are from eastern Ukraine which explains it.  All educated people in Ukraine are fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian.

(My wife's family is the exception in that they always spoke Ukrainian in the family, even as they are completely fluent in Russian also.)

Without exception . . . ALL of the folks in our group have switched exclusively to using Ukrainian language when meeting as a group AND while speaking in their own homes.  Even the older parents who are living with their children now here in USA since war.

This same practice exists for ALL of my wife's friends who are still living back in Ukraine.

It has become on par with desiring to save Ukraine as a nation.

Moral of the story:  A western man who wants to end up with an ethnic Ukrainian woman will have a 'hard row to hoe' if he insists on speaking Russian rather than Ukrainian.   

(As a side note:  My now wife spent time with me in various eastern Ukrainian cities when I was there on business trips.  She always spoke the purest of Ukrainian language to the locals.  Their eyes usually widened when they heard the pure perfect Ukrainian language and often said:  "Are you a teacher of Ukrainian language?")

[Trenchcoat]

All depends on your personal talent and previous languages learned.
But we are more between 2000/5000 hours if you want to really be fluent in Russian (C1 level at least, C2 or like a Russian in the best case).
 
Add few hundreds hours to learn Ukrainian, IF you master Russian.
But I think for most of us, it's a bad thing to learn those two languages at the same time. It will be unproductive.
 
I have crossed some students who were not capable to even say more than three sentences after studying Russian for three years.

You are no doubt right on the higher number of hours needed to obtain fluent proficiency Pat. I know some words in Ukrainian are the same as in Russia, 'Tam' for 'There' for example. Then there are other words that are Polish, apparently someone online thought even more Polish words than Russian in the Ukrainian language. Then probably like Russian some English words particularly for more modern inventions around. Likely a few words from other nations, French, Germanic, etc. Then I would guess a fair few words that are native Ukrainian, Slavic/old Slavic derived. I notice to that sometimes a Russian & Ukrainian word can be the same but the spelling is different in both.

My guess is as a result many Ukrainian speakers might understand Russian speakers enough even if they don't use Russian much at all themself. Possibly a Ukrainian girl may not be happy about it but it's not that easy to pick up either language as you've highlighted Pat. I definitely think you're right that learning either language first well before embarking on trying to learn the other is the right course of action otherwise a right state of a confused muddled mess could scupper learning both.

Russian language I found it hard to retain and recall at first but now it's getting a bit easier I think. I enjoy learning it but it can be hard going at times. I've never really learnt as a concerted effort over three years, just bits here & there, never had a tutor in it just online stuff. Not sure how much attainment I can reach, I'm not usually a natural linguist but possibly I take to Russian more naturally, will see I guess.

[Trenchcoat]

Springs to mind that Ukrainians are then moving to speaking Ukrainian but don't lose their ability to speak & understand the Russian language also. My guess is however that elsewhere in the FSU Russian speakers do not know Ukrainian though of course they would understand a few words of it.

I can understand speaking Russian to a Ukrainian could go down badly but potentially understandable given the many hours input given over to understanding either language, it's hard. I think at this juncture for me however an sometimes unpleasant decision it feels sticking to learning Russian and taking the hit for it is the only practical way to go in my mind.

Anyway putting this language time learning in perspective one of my hobbies is playing strategy games on my PC, I don't do them much as I used to (hardly at all in recent years) but I find that they help occupy my mind from banging away which it often seems to do. Anyhow on my Steam account it shows the number of hours clocked up, my favourite strategy is around 765 hours & my second favourite at 374 hours and my third favourite at 308 hours, all the rest are a lot less. Those timings have accumulated over about the last 15 years I believe. As you can no doubt see if I had spent all that time learning Russian with those hours I would have over 1200 hours worth of learning and possibly a decent but not fluent command of Russian. Of course I have to have some down time so not everything in my life can be learning & work. Main point is that I feel I have played those games a hell of a lot (though far from all the time) over those 15 years. I can only fathom to think the demented head banging I would be feeling if I have been speaking Russian instead for that time.

In theory if my language learning can add up to an hour each day for each of the 365 days of the year approximately then I would have 365 hours of Russian learning. I would have to keep that up for likely a minimum of three years to get to much of a decent position but likely longer to be better placed, though anything can be good I guess. So it really is a mammoth undertaking learning either Russian or Ukrainian. Doing just an hour a night for the next 2-3 years, each year could send a lot of people round the bend. I'm plodding my way forward on this but scaling up to the challenge here seems a pretty tough get.

[krimster2]

I was born into a multi-generational household
and was partially raised by my Ukrainian born grandmother
who spoke yiddish, Russian, and english
being multi-lingual seems normal to me

my daughters have native proficiency in Russian and English
and have gone to school in Russia, USA and Israel
they fluently speak English, Russian, Hebrew, and Spanish
I speak English, German and Russian and spanish

if I were a poor desperate incel, I could EASILY use my language skills to HELP score pooty-tang, hereafter referred to simply as 'tang especially in countries where I'm considered an EXOTIC outsider, like Russia or Costa Rica

the "barrier" is making the introduction to the HOT lookin wimmin you see walkin past you
who make eye contact with you and note "you're NOT from around here"
but then pass you

so yoiu wanna be able to catch their attention and then introduce yourself
then you wanna get them to do you some simple small favor, like take a picture of you with your phone next to some statue, etc
and then you "reward" them by taking them to lunch
but ya gotta have a dialog about it, no language skills then no dialog, no dialog then no 'tang!

I got all the 'tang I ever wanted with variations of this
in half a dozen different countries including China which quanatatively is where I got the most action, chinese wimmin with "white boy fetish" were ALL OVER ME!!!
but none of them were marryable, and I think half were CCP spies!!

anyway, I can't help it, I just REALLY, REALLY like having 'tang
I don't know how incels can live without it
must suck "havin to pull your own pud" all the time
and not have a beautiful, soft, warm woman laying next to you
sad...

[Trenchcoat]

I was born into a multi-generational household
and was partially raised by my Ukrainian born grandmother
who spoke yiddish, Russian, and english
being multi-lingual seems normal to me

my daughters have native proficiency in Russian and English
and have gone to school in Russia, USA and Israel
they fluently speak English, Russian, Hebrew, and Spanish
I speak English, German and Russian and spanish

So how the hell did you and your daughters learn all of that! It must having taken ages! Like many, many hours a day, over years & years!!! Truly something like that must have done your heads in, I'm pretty sure it would me.

[krimster2]

how?
total immersion
live there, or live with someone who speaks another language and learn from them
you're forced to learn at a rapid pace this way!!

my wife and I speak in Russian and english with each other
we'll speak exclusively in russian only when we have russian guests over for dinner
and exclusively in English when we have American guests

learnin another language is a ticket to meetin the local wimmin
cuz you can go to places that don't depend on tourism
virgin territory, and you incels are the virgins

latin wimmin and central asian wimmin are all VERY aggressive sexually
but in the prime areas, english speakers will be a minority
meaning you pretty much need to confine your search to university areas
unless you know the language

seriously, can you imagine what the thrill is like in having a mixed-race eurasian girl come to your apartment in Tashkent and smoke hash with you (and she doesn't speak much English, and you're the first American she ever met!)
and she sits on the edge of the couch and watches TV with you as her miniskirt hikes up and she shows she's going commando, i.e. not wearing underwear
and she's doing this JUST to make SURE she gets your attention
WHICH SHE DOES!!!

[Shadow]

The key is communication. /if the woman know any other language beside her own, that can be used as well.I communicated in English, German, Spanish and French with different women.
As for our home situation, we use a lot of English, which we all speak. The Children are raised with 3 native languages. Dutch from me and school, Russian from Mrs Shadow and English as general communication.
The oldest has now entered high school, and is so far acing the highest level to the point where they want to give extra tasks. He is adding Latin, ancient Greek, French and German to his vocabulary.

The youngest has learned some French and Spanish for fun, can count in Chinese to 10 and mastered 3 programming languages last year. At school he is mostly bored as they can not give him a challenge, he is waiting for high school next year.
Just learn whatever language needed to communicate.

[Trenchcoat]

Thanks Krim & Shadow, I appreciate your input. Learning from an early age from family indeed sounds a wonderful thing, you kind of get the language advantage almost from the word go. If I ever had kids it would be something I would see as very much as an advantage for them to have. For me I think multiple languages would be overwhelming I think a dual English/Russian language household would be ideal, nice and streamlined on the language front. For me I kind of see a world having emerged where one language dominates a particular region, the Australia, North America, UK & EU region, English. The FSU region, Russian, the East Asian region Chinese, and the South American Region, Spanish.

I don't see the Ukrainian war as changing the Russian language influence in the FSU region all that much. For that region I think despite an uptake in those using Ukrainian long term Russian will remain the common language of business & trade for most of the FSU region. I'm pretty sure my decision to stick with learning Russian is the right one even if not popular at the moment. Of recent I've even seen some words in Russia/Ukrainian such 'Tak' that seem to mean different meanings in Russian and Ukrainian. That to me looks like asking for trouble trying to learn both as a foreigner at least early on.

[Shadow]

A few tips for those who are starting a multilingual household.
1. Do not be alarmed by the initial school reports. When the little Shadows started their elementary school, their vocabulry was a little less than the others. But we were lucky to have a teacher married to a German husband who explained that due to them having a double vocabulary, it was actually a lot higher than the others, just they could measure only the Dutch.A few years later both were on top of their class in all language areas, as predicted by the teacher.
2. Do not talk to the young children in a non-native level languange. Why? There are many immigrant and their children are talking in a bad accent and grammar. This because they are mimicking their parents and get used to a low standard of language. We took the decision to both talk our native language to the children, meaning they would hear it in pure and native form.
The English they picked up from TV and our common communication. While their grammar is not perfect, they would not be lost in an English speaking environment.

[Trenchcoat]

A few tips for those who are starting a multilingual household.
1. Do not be alarmed by the initial school reports. When the little Shadows started their elementary school, their vocabulry was a little less than the others. But we were lucky to have a teacher married to a German husband who explained that due to them having a double vocabulary, it was actually a lot higher than the others, just they could measure only the Dutch.A few years later both were on top of their class in all language areas, as predicted by the teacher.
2. Do not talk to the young children in a non-native level languange. Why? There are many immigrant and their children are talking in a bad accent and grammar. This because they are mimicking their parents and get used to a low standard of language. We took the decision to both talk our native language to the children, meaning they would hear it in pure and native form.
The English they picked up from TV and our common communication. While their grammar is not perfect, they would not be lost in an English speaking environment.

These are good tips Shadow, thank you for posting. I kind of always wondered how it worked. I can definitely she the advantage of a multi lingual family, though I think two languages would be the most. More than two I think feels overkill and would kind of feel a bit too weird for me. For me two languages that encompass a large territory of speakers makes sense to me. Handy with English of course but I think Russian complements that well. That said although Russian always intrigued me I never felt a real need for it until I got into FSU dating. For me learning Russian is an accomplishment that would feel great to make. Kind of a shame it's linked to bad events at the moment though. Kind of feel Putin invading Ukraine has come to overshadow a lot of great Russian culture unfortunately.