Russian Women Discussion
RWD News From the Front => Ukrainian Front Discussion => Topic started by: tfcrew on December 15, 2016, 02:31:17 PM
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The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to avoid all travel to Crimea and the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. This supersedes the Travel Warning for Ukraine dated June 17, 2016.
Russia-backed separatists continue to control areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, where violent clashes have resulted in over 9,000 deaths. A ceasefire agreement established a de facto dividing line between Ukrainian government-controlled and separatist-held areas of Ukraine, with a limited number of operational checkpoints controlled by government and separatist forces.
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/ukraine-travel-warning.html
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maybe avoid the country roads also. Nice neighborhood, but
they don't have much pull with the Dept. of Transportation.
http://youtu.be/2V-uKWpfrio (http://youtu.be/2V-uKWpfrio)
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"Ukraine Travel Warning Dec. 14 2016"
I will be in Sevastopol for the month of August
nothing to do with Trump campaign...
my first trip to Krim since annexation by Russia
have to come in from Moscow instead of kyiv now
bummer...
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When I last entered Crimea, I needed a special Russian visa with permission to enter Crimea. This was after the take over. My wife needed to send me a special invitation letter. There was a special form to fill out.
You should check what the current procedure is.
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I just see this information from the US Department of State:
Crimea: The Crimean Peninsula remains part of Ukraine despite Russia’s purported annexation and occupation. Follow the guidance in our Travel Warning for Ukraine and defer all travel to Crimea. If you choose to travel to Crimea, you should be aware:
•The U.S. Embassy has severely restricted the travel of U.S. government personnel to Crimea.
•The U.S. Embassy’s ability to provide consular services, including responding to emergencies to U.S. citizens, is extremely limited.
•Time spent in Crimea counts against the 90 days allowed in Ukraine without a visa.
•You may only enter Crimea from mainland Ukraine.
•Entrance into Crimea by air or sea is illegal and you will be denied entry into mainland Ukraine and banned from Ukraine for five years.
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"When I last entered Crimea, I needed a special Russian visa with permission to enter Crimea. This was after the take over. My wife needed to send me a special invitation letter. There was a special form to fill out."
my family and I have 3 year multi-entry visas to Russia
visas are all done by a Russian with "friends"
nothing special needed to visit Krim
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My friend stole that car. Nothing special is needed to drive it. There is no police in our neighborhood so I just borrow it from him and drive it when I like. It is fun.
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good to know you follow the rules of law and order
but if you steal
can you complain when the oligarchs steal?
what's the difference?
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When I last entered Crimea, I needed a special Russian visa with permission to enter Crimea. This was after the take over. My wife needed to send me a special invitation letter. There was a special form to fill out.
You should check what the current procedure is.
I just see this information from the US Department of State:
Crimea: The Crimean Peninsula remains part of Ukraine despite Russia’s purported annexation and occupation. Follow the guidance in our Travel Warning for Ukraine and defer all travel to Crimea. If you choose to travel to Crimea, you should be aware:
•The U.S. Embassy has severely restricted the travel of U.S. government personnel to Crimea.
•The U.S. Embassy’s ability to provide consular services, including responding to emergencies to U.S. citizens, is extremely limited.
•Time spent in Crimea counts against the 90 days allowed in Ukraine without a visa.
•You may only enter Crimea from mainland Ukraine.
•Entrance into Crimea by air or sea is illegal and you will be denied entry into mainland Ukraine and banned from Ukraine for five years.
my family and I have 3 year multi-entry visas to Russia
visas are all done by a Russian with "friends"
nothing special needed to visit Krim
So what you're saying, Krimster, is that you're never going back to Ukraine after this trip? Or that because Russia considers Crimea part of Russia, and therefore presumably doesn't stamp travel documents, Ukrainian border officials at the airport won't know that you've been to Crimea. You obviously won't be able to travel back by road to "mainland" Ukraine, because staff at the land "border" will know that you didn't travel south past them, and therefore must have entered Crimea by means that are illegal in their eyes (either by air or sea).
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never had a problem with Ovir that couldn't be resolved in under 10 sec with a present
it's Ukraine...
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btw, a friend did the overland drive from Simferopol to Kerch and onto Odessa and across both Russian and Ukrainian check points
he got hassled (only because he didn't pay) but he got through but long lines
that would be a miserable way to go to Ukraine
I don't plan on combining a trip to Ukraine with Russia
that is really inconvenient now
because of having to xfer in and out of Krim through Moscow
if I ever go to Lviv or Odessa in the future
I will go through Borispol and then on to those places
I don't anticipate the issues you brought up being of any real concern
Ovir is REALLY easy to deal with...
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never had a problem with Ovir that couldn't be resolved in under 10 sec with a present
it's Ukraine...
it's Ukraine...
IT WAS UKRAINE
"Ovir is REALLY easy to deal with"
By writing outdated crap you keep perpetrating bad advice and info to others .
How long is it since you were last in Ukraine?
What is a certainty -- the old ways will still apply under the Russian occupiers in Krym
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jay...
calm down man...
"By writing outdated crap you keep perpetrating bad advice and info to others .
How long is it since you were last in Ukraine?"
Jay, you don't have a monopoly on information
and you don't know the source of mine
mine is accurate and up to date
and is all recent and all first-hand
and the quality of my family's trip is dependent on its accuracy
your assertion that Ukraine is now some how different and is more law abiding and bribery and corruption are not so prevalent as they used to be, should be the legal basis for entering a mental hospital, as it would be that delusional...
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So-- when exactly were you last there?
And YOUR dealing with OVIR?
I am in no doubt that corruption did not end overnight at Maidan -- BUT -- it is a different Ukraine and any generalising in the way you did it is misleading -- at best.
A long way to go on the issue -- but -- significant progress has been made and in dealing with lower level bureaucracy it is different now.
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OVIR was part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Soviet times, and its officers were part of the KGB. After the collapse, they remained part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and SBU. They were only divorced from the SBU in 2015.
I don't doubt that they would take bribes, but in the past, if you paid a bribe, that would be recorded somewhere, even if the bribe was kept.
My husband takes many short trips to Ukraine annually. His last one was within the last two months. He is exceptionally analytical and observant, two traits which kept him alive and out of jail. He also communicates with many Ukrainian expats, most of whom go back annually. From the perspective of most Ukrainians, there is no difference in corruption now. In fact, in some regions it is worse. Journalists are still being killed for disclosing corruption. That said, the neutral Transparency Index does rate Ukraine higher than it has in the past, and it has moved ahead of Russia. So, it's still extremely corrupt, but less so than a year ago, or two yeas ago. My view is this is not because of Ukrainians, but because external forces are finally catching up to Ukraine's corrupt politicians. No more Russian gas to siphon off and steal, and the IMF and EU will no longer give the Ukrainian government funds directly, except in very controlled circumstances, as they recognize those funds end up in politicians' pockets rather than doing what they were intended to do.
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"So-- when exactly were you last there?
And YOUR dealing with OVIR?"
would be a relevant question to ask if my information was solely based on my own experience
but its not,
like most people with family ties to the FSU I'm part of "network" of people
in my network I have several people who went to Krim from Moscow and then to Kerch, and on to Odessa and Kyiv
and several who have traveled straight to Kyiv or Odessa
both within the last year
all are US citizens but some are Ukrainina/Russian and some native born USA
all have business or personal ties to Ukraine and travel there at least once per year
consensus is that Ukraine is the "same ole same ole" if anything even more corrupt
ok?
is it alright with you if I go?
I promise not to break anything...
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bribes to different bureaucrats can be made in different ways,
for example, when I used to own a lot of property in Sevastopol and had to spend a crazy amount of time registering documents, getting authorizations, inspections, etc you could buy a special "fuel coupon" good for say 50 liters of fuel and donate it to whatever "department" it was, and also give cash directly to the bureaucrat you were face to face with
this would make all my documents magically float to the top of the in basket and my visit short and hassle free.
every bureaucrat has to be paid, to do otherwise is a waste of time, and the bribes are usually less than $100
biggest bribe I paid was for my wife to get her driver's license in Ukraine that was $200
IMHO this part of corruption is not such a big deal
and cheaper than the west
getting building permits and inspections on a house in San Jose, CA cost me $35,000...
the same in Ukraine maybe cost $20 officially but $200 in bribes
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I think your analogy is flawed. Building permits and inspections are required to ensure properties comply with standard codes. I wouldn't describe it as a "bribe", although it does raise revenue. However, if you do not meet the required code standards, in most non corrupt jurisdictions, you can't build. Period. Not so in Ukraine, where, because of bribery, anything and everything is on the table for a price.
Countries where corruption is endemic are rarely prosperous and secure.
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"So-- when exactly were you last there?
And YOUR dealing with OVIR?"
would be a relevant question to ask if my information was solely based on my own experience
but its not,
like most people with family ties to the FSU I'm part of "network" of people
in my network I have several people who went to Krim from Moscow and then to Kerch, and on to Odessa and Kyiv
and several who have traveled straight to Kyiv or Odessa
both within the last year
all are US citizens but some are Ukrainina/Russian and some native born USA
all have business or personal ties to Ukraine and travel there at least once per year
consensus is that Ukraine is the "same ole same ole" if anything even more corrupt
ok?
is it alright with you if I go?
I promise not to break anything...
Actually K --if it was up to me I would do something about everyone that visits Krym -- and at the least examine why they were there.
Also note--if it was up to me !! --- I would have zero tolerance in Ukraine on any bribe or corruption at any level.
To comment on Boethius post -- it is hard for me to make specific comparisons . Prior to Maidan I simply accepted what I could see and hear -- and lived with it on the basis that was how that world was.
But --it is quite wrong to say nothing has changed -- certainly in numerous small examples it has changed. In other areas I find distasteful -- it is still there to deal with.
The other side of that coin -- as an example -- the Police previously were paid a totally inadequate wage -- in the reforms their pay rose 4 fold. So the immediate need to supplement their income by actively seeking bribes was removed ( or at least reduced) .I numerous dealings ( on trivial matters) I have only had one attempt( the cop decided having his id photographed was enough for him to only give me a warning instead !!) Previously -- Police would stop( or attempt to !!) you very very often if you had number plates from somewhere else ! That no longer happens .
A small example of personal experience how reforms have been real . Funnily enough, Mrs B touches on point I often wondered about eg the Police on the beat who collected the income had to share it with senior officers etc so it made it harder to negotiate down to very little !! In dealing with OVIR - I have not been asked for any more than a documented expedition fee.
Note -- I am in no way attempting to say that a "new" Ukraine miraculously solved corruption overnight -- but-- I know of many instances where individuals have chosen to behave differently . In fact -- in a city that does have a zest for reform & I know quite well -- the local Mayor was murdered because of his attempts to reform -- and -- and -- subsequently people were charged .
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Your mistake as a foreigner is in assuming those charges were a disavowal of corruption. It is usually about different factions fighting.
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I think your analogy is flawed. Building permits and inspections are required to ensure properties comply with standard codes. I wouldn't describe it as a "bribe", although it does raise revenue. However, if you do not meet the required code standards, in most non corrupt jurisdictions, you can't build. Period. Not so in Ukraine, where, because of bribery, anything and everything is on the table for a price.
Countries where corruption is endemic are rarely prosperous and secure.
Interesting that you mention building projects etc .
In my post above I mentioned a specific city that is really trying to reform.
A commercial building in a prominent city location is substantially finished -- but -- as was not unusual in earlier days-- it was not built to the approved engineering spec and in fact far exceeded what was approved.
It is now subject of a legal battle between the developer and the city .
Some of the back story intrigue is all about corruption and attempted bribery.
In my home city --these days -- the court order would be to demolish if it could not be changed into compliance. It is exactly the type of order Ukraine needs right now to prevent builder/developers ignoring requirements.
It becomes even more important when you consider the sheer number of buildings with significant history and merit that will need to be saved to keep streetscapes intact.
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Your mistake as a foreigner is in assuming those charges were a disavowal of corruption. It is usually about different factions fighting.
I well appreciate that point -- BUT-- it is not always the case.
There is definitely a very solid core of people idealistic enough to understand that corruption is a major impediment to a prosperous Ukraine.
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I humbly beseech you Jay...
to give all due consideration to provide my children with your esteemed blessing and allow them to see their aging grandparents in Krim, perhaps for the last time...
my gratitude to you Jay...
a conundrum for BO to ponder
is Ukraine corrupt because it’s poor, or poor because it’s corrupt
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is Ukraine corrupt because it’s poor, or poor because it’s corrupt
It's not an either or.
Historically, the Russian Empire always had a lot of corruption among its bureaucrats. The first ever anti corruption riots occurred in Russia, in 1648. Different tsars cracked down on corruption with varying degrees of success, but it was always a problem, particularly in the far flung regions.
Under the Soviets, particularly in the Brezhnev years, corruption and theft were the rule rather than the exception. Factories ran "second shifts" where everything was stolen from the state, produced, then sold for the benefit of those running the factories, or at times, outside criminals. It was rare to find someone who did not steal from the job. The better half was deemed an idiot because he refused to steal, in fact, he resented it. So, this is deeply ingrained.
Ukraine and Russia are also poor because you can't liquidate your most effective members (successful farmers, successful businessmen, intellectuals) and succeed. It takes generations to replace that. But, it certainly isn't helped by corruption.
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I humbly beseech you Jay...
to give all due consideration to provide my children with your esteemed blessing and allow them to see their aging grandparents in Krim, perhaps for the last time...
my gratitude to you Jay...
So-- when exactly were you last there?
And YOUR dealing with OVIR?
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Historically, the Russian Empire always had a lot of corruption among its bureaucrats.
Maybe not always ;). In the late 1800s they kept thorough records of their careers and stipends, witness my great-grandfather's long Résumé des services rendus (in French) on this page: http://www.floriani.it/leonida-eng.htm.
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a 2017 Ernst and Young’s Corruption Perception rating found that Ukraine was the NUMBER 1 MOST CORRUPT COUNTRY of 41 corrupt countries, interestingly, Russia was sixteenth. Eighty-eight percent of Ukrainians believed that corruption was widespread in their county.
but according to Jay based on a recent trip to Ovir to receive a perfunctory visa stamp without receiving a request for a “facilitation payment”, this perception of Ukraine being corrupt is no longer valid and Ukraine is now all about being AGAINST corruption...
an incredible turn-about overcoming centuries of institutional corruption seemingly overnight
clearly both views about corruption can’t be “correct”
I’ll leave it to the reader to decide...
BTW J,
I rarely “personally” went to Ovir, either an assistant or my wife took my passport and “facilitation" present and returned it to me, so your point of requesting a “when I was there” is totally irrelevant
my Ukrainian network has grown quite a bit over the last 20 years, I hear frequent reports from quite an eclectic group of people, including someone very high up in the Міністерство інфраструктури України) who is in charge of handling Ukraine’s merchant ships and who travels frequently
corruption in Ukraine has never been more lucrative than what it is now
Ukraine’s corruption even attracted Manafort, that’s how bad it is
and the little “anti-corruption” posters in Borispil are just for “show"
and not actual “policy” and they’re the same the old posters from a few years ago
which were re-used from the previous administration’s anti-corruption campaign
of Make Ukraine Great Again
ok...
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Jay-Z
here is your Ukraine!
between a rock and a hard place
how much longer will it last
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Three and a half years ago, Ukrainians rose against corruption. This year, Ernst and Young’s Corruption Perception rating found that Ukraine was the most corrupt of 41 corrupt countries. Russia was sixteenth. Eighty-eight percent of Ukrainians believed that corruption was widespread in their county.
The foreign professionals, a motley crew of reformers who were invited to help fix the Ukrainian economy—named variags after ancient Vikings—have mostly left.
Chicago-born Natalie Jaresko, the finance minister of Ukraine who was invited to come from the U.S. to fix the Ukrainian economy, decided not to wait for the results of the reforms she enacted. She is now back in America and is executive director of a U.S. federal control board overseeing Puerto Rico’s finances, with a comfortable annual salary of $625,000.
Mikheil Saakashvili, the variag from the former Soviet republic of Georgia, gave his diagnosis: “Ukraine would need another 20 years of toil to rise economically to the level of the pre-Maidan years.” Poroshenko fired the former president of Georgia from his position as governor of the Odessa region.
Ukrainian reformers, like post-Maidan Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, have also resigned. In an interview in March, he estimated his net worth at “more or less $1 million.” Most believe it is on the “more” side; some even estimate a billion U.S. dollars.
Head of the Ukrainian National Bank, Valeria Gontareva, having declared $2 million in income in 2016, resigned from her post in May. The list goes on.
In May, Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman said he was prepared to resign if his ambitious retirement reform bill did not pass Parliament. The reform bill would increase monthly retirement payouts to 12 million Ukrainians from $51 to $60, or even $70. Before Maidan, payouts were $190.
The average monthly salary in Ukraine is about $230. Before Maidan, it was $410.
This year, real estate analysts predict that the value of apartments in Kiev will sink another 10 percent—on top of 2016’s 25 percent drop. A one-bedroom apartment in Kiev can be bought for $15,000. Real estate prices have sunken to 1990s-levels, Ukrainian portal Vesti reported.
Free medicine, which is guaranteed by Article 49 of the Ukrainian Constitution, no longer exists.
In the meantime, Ukraine’s national debt is rising. In 2016, it grew 8.3 percent. The Ministry of Finance reported that it is now more than $74 billion—67 percent of country’s GDP.
Polls say that those who led the revolution have lost the public’s trust. According to Sofia Center for Social Studies, 82 percent of Ukrainians do not trust Andriy Parubiy, commander of the Maidan revolution and current head of Ukrainian Parliament. Eighty-one percent do not trust Minister of Interior Arsen Avakov, and 81.5 percent do not trust Head of the Council for Defense and Security Oleksandr Turchynov. Eighty-nine percent of Ukrainians do not trust Parliament, and 86.2 percent do not trust the government as a whole.
Georgy Tuka, in charge of issues of occupied territories (two separatist regions supported by Russia), openly calls for dictatorship. “The state system that we have today is not capable of leading our country out of the deepest crisis, which we are in now. I support a more stringent measure: dictatorship,” he said to Ukrainian NewsOne. “We have been told lately that we have democracy [in Ukraine]. It is a pure lie. I do not think that the elections that are being bought and sold at the polling stations, then bought in the courts, and then are formed by big money are our bright future.”
But changes to the current political structure can hardly be expected. Ukraine is mired in war. Guns prevail over law. Yuriy Bereza, the deputy head of the Parliamentarian faction backed by Minister for Interior Arsen Avakov, promised to massacre the opposition if it ever tried to return to power. He said, “I have a plan B. There will be no civil war. The will be no revanche. There will be the Night of Long Knives. That’s it.”
He knows what he’s talking about. Dozens of political activists and journalists have been murdered since the days of Maidan. Exiled Ukrainian journalist Anatoly Shariy admits that before Maidan Ukraine was not a crime-free paradise but “nobody could have simply come to you, kill you, and just walk away.” Shariy lives in undisclosed location in France.
Opposition parliamentarian Natalia Korolevska, a former presidential candidate and former minister for Social Policy, is at risk of becoming blind after radicals in paramilitary uniforms threw a green solution on her face during a meeting with constituents on June 6 in Odessa. Police did not interfere. The criminals walked away, not even bothering to cover their faces.
Only 1.9 percent of Ukrainians trust President Petro Poroshenko. An overwhelming 78.1 percent do not.
In fact, Poroshenko is so despised in Ukraine that one store in Kiev prints “Poroshenko asshole” on their receipts.
A secret telephone conversation this spring between Poroshenko and Vladimir Putin was leaked. According to the Kremlin, it was conducted in “a respectful and correct manner”and “the heads of the states periodically switched to a playful, ironic tone.” Ukrainians were infuriated.
The matters discussed during the conversations were never disclosed.
What country could the president of Ukraine have talked about on June 11, when Ukrainians were celebrating the first day of their visa-free travel to the EU?
Russia, of course.
“Farewell, unwashed Russia, country of slaves, country of masters!” Poroshenko quoted Russian poet Mikhail Lermontov’s poem while addressing “his people” at the moment of, from his perspective, Ukraine’s final departure from the “Russian world.”
Curiously, Mikhail Lermontov is Putin’s favorite poet. He quoted the same poem in 2015 during his meeting with a selected group of Russia’s teachers.
Poroshenko’s chocolate factory in the Russian town of Lipetsk was closed only last April. It operated for more than three years on the Russian market since the beginning of the “Russian aggression.” The factory sent $72 million in dividends to the Ukrainian president’s bank accounts.
From the perspective of the suspicious Ukrainian public, this strange love-hate attitude towards Russia within the Poroshenko family is not limited to the president.
His 16-year-old son, Mykhailo, a student of the prestigious British Concord College, recently posted a picture of him wearing a sweatshirt that said “Russia.” The photo created such an uproar that the president apologized and made his son go on TV wearing a T-shirt that said “Ukraine.”
Additionally, Yulia Poroshenko, his daughter-in-law, still has her Russian citizenship. The president’s family ignored an appeal by Ukrainian journalist Dmytro Gnap to burn her Russian passport on the anniversary of Maidan.
Poroshenko says that visa-free travel to Europe, which allows Ukrainian tourists to stay in EU countries for 90 days with no rights to employment, is what the Maidan was all about. This was what they were fighting for on Kiev’s streets in 2014.
More than 10,000 Ukrainians have been killed on both sides of the divide since 2014, and for this?
According to UN data, almost 60 percent of Ukrainians live below the poverty line. In 2015, 28.6 percent did. Only five to 10 percent of Ukrainians meet the financial standards necessary to enjoy the newly acquired freedom to travel to EU. Thirty-four percent of Ukrainians want to leave their country. The highest share of potential emigrants (55 percent) are people younger than 30 years-old.
In terms of zrada on the international front, it is rumored that Donald Trump will ease the economic sanctions imposed on Russia, and Europe is signaling that it is tired of confronting Russia about Ukraine.
Ukrainians suspect that their country is nothing but a major headache for the Trump administration. Ukrainian politician Nadia Savchenko, who was freed from Russian prison a year ago, promised dire consequences for the U.S. if it decides to change its policy on Ukraine. In an interview to ZIK in May, she sent this message to the U.S.: “If you don’t want to support us, we shall support your enemy [Russia], and we will start fighting against you.”
those who love Ukraine can only weep over what's coming next..
but let's tell it the way it is...
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Yes, Ukraine is in a real shitty position right now.
Wife's family called and said that they just raised prices for many things once more. Gas, food, and so on. Wages remain the same.
The nonprofit I work with has lost a lot of funding for the children because many organizations have moved to other harder hit areas like Syria, or the migrants in Europe.
Talent is trying to leave the country now. A good friend recently asked us how to come here to give birth as a way out.
Things are so bad husbands are "pimping" out their wives like they do in Colombia. For those still looking for a wife be very leery of male translators. The new gig in Odesa is to have the husband or boyfriend tag along on the date as the "translator". Free dinner for the family and a little extra money top pay the bills.
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remember when Americans used to ask about "retiring in Ukraine"??
wait another couple of years
and they'll completely stop asking about it...
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I would do it right now tbh, but am still relatively young and work online, so would be easier.
If I were older or needed medical I would not risk it. You would need to re-retire back to the US like ML said in another post. It's not a comfortable country for older people.
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I tried it out for 3 years, bought a huge apartment right on the black sea and fixed it up
but...
you just have to live there to understand what a messed up place it it is...
especially if you have kids
OTOH, if I were single, I would totally live there and have 2-3 mistresses but live by myself
or live by myself and hire escorts once a month to spend a few days with me and have them cook for me as well
I can day dream, right...
when I lived there you didn't have to pay a property tax - total monthly cost for a 2600 sq ft apartment was $50/month which included utilities
now with higher utilities and property tax I'm guessing it would be about $200+/month
still not bad - but you get what you pay for, like garbage collection for instance...
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but according to Jay based on a recent trip to Ovir to receive a perfunctory visa stamp without receiving a request for a “facilitation payment”, this perception of Ukraine being corrupt is no longer valid and Ukraine is now all about being AGAINST corruption...
...
BTW J,
I rarely “personally” went to Ovir, either an assistant or my wife took my passport and “facilitation" present and returned it to me, so your point of requesting a “when I was there” is totally irrelevant
ok...
So -- I note again that you very deliberately decline to state when you were last in Ukraine -- and when the experience you refer to actually happened.
Also note -- a an action being attributed that I did not say . The attempt to misrepresent my actual experiences and in particular my comment -- a comment made to illustrate that Krimster comments were a supposed to me his personal experience-- which he now concedes they were not-- by way of comparison-- mine were different and first hand.
The attempt to misrepresent my position is dishonest.
So -- when exactly were you there? It is not irrelevant -- simply put- my comments refer very specifically to post 2014 -- and without knowing for sure -- Krimster reference is to an earlier period . A very major change occurred in Ukraine -- and a refusal to understand that illustrates his outdated comments are just that.
Krimster and others who write of issues from a long time ago as if they are current-- are misrepresenting and misleading issues.
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My information comes from two sources - my last visit to Ukraine in the summer of 2017, and my husband's visits several times a year, the last, within the last two months. Is that recent enough for you?
The better half's views come both from on the ground observation, living among mostly unemployed working class Ukrainians when there, and partly from his family's experiences. One family member owns numerous kiosks in Kyiv. He is still required to pay bribes to ensure his kiosks can operate unmolested. Another relative inherited huge tracts of land in a village outside Kyiv, via marriage (spouse died). That relative leases the lands to a German company, but to ensure everything is legal, has to pay bribes to Ukrainian officials. Then there is the story of a cousin who was on the front lines near Donetsk. He was in the army for 2 years, and when he returned to Kyiv, his state run job was not available to him. You see, veterans don't really matter. You do your time fighting for your country, and you're on your own when you get back. This differs even from Soviet times, when such jobs were held for you. Due to the unemployment situation, he couldn't find another job, and died, I believe, from depression.
Then there are the experiences in our immediate family's cases. Surgeries? Sure, they are paid for by the state for the average Ukrainian. However, if you actually want that surgery, you better have dollars for the surgeon, plus the nurses. Otherwise, you will die waiting for the surgery, and even if you receive the operation, you will receive no post operative treatment. They are more fortunate than some of their friends in the same situation, as they have the better half to send money thereby ensuring their treatment. The last time this occurred was about six weeks ago. Is that recent enough for you?
The better half knows a woman from L'vivska oblast'. She owns several apartments, and a huge house in Bukovel. She funds the pharmacy her daughter owns. To this day, the daughter is compelled to pay "protection money" to the local police, and the woman says she has to pay bribes to officials related to her properties. She has plenty of stories of the corruption of local officials, such as one who failed to pay workers, stole all the money earned at a still state owned factory (from sales to the EU), and bought new vehicles for himself and family members, safely stored behind his state of the art security fence. No one has come to investigate his case, or the tens of thousands of dollars workers at the factory he headed did not receive. When this woman visits her ancestral village, she sees old women on the banks of the river, picking up deadwood to store and heat their homes, as no one can afford heat. She also told him that in many of those villages, there is no electricity, it's been cut as no one can pay for it. Given Ukraine receives Western subsidies for these things, where does that money disappear??
These are ordinary Ukrainians who are mostly living on average Ukrainian salaries. The better half does send money to immediate family, but not significant amounts because his past experience is that draws attention from official sources that causes all sorts of problems. His mother certainly disagrees with your perception of the "less corrupt" Ukraine. Her comment - "I have not witnessed this level of theft since the end of WWII." She then went on to describe a litany of corruption, all at official levels, experienced by the average Ukrainian.
Finally, I will say that for 27 years, I have always hoped for improvements in Ukraine, and argued with the better half about how things are "changing" He has always scoffed at my "Western naivete", and has always told me how things would shake out. including after Maidan. I have to say, in 27 years, he has never been wrong on this. I used to tease him, telling him he should work as a CIA analyst due to his accuracy. He would tell you he knows this because he lived with, and was the victim of, the very politicians now in charge of the country, and his very survival was contingent on knowing how they think. He has said that at least under the communists, their greedy excesses were curbed by Moscow. Now, that doesn't happen. You will never, as a privileged foreigner, be subject to the humiliations average Ukrainians face, nor the small amounts of graft still occurring to get things done.
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Surgeries? Sure, they are paid for by the state for the average Ukrainian. However, if you actually want that surgery, you better have dollars for the surgeon, plus the nurses. Otherwise, you will die waiting for the surgery, and even if you receive the operation, you will receive no post operative treatment. They are more fortunate than some of their friends in the same situation, as they have the better half to send money thereby ensuring their treatment. The last time this occurred was about six weeks ago. Is that recent enough for you?
Yea, pretty much how it works from my experience. One of our family members was hospitalized last year. The hospital decided knew could not pay so opted for the bare minimum to keep him alive. Mother in law had to go to hospital to bring medicine bought at the pharmacy, clean his feces and bed pan, and slip the nurses some extra money just to look in on him. He would have festered with infection and died otherwise.
One of my wife's gf father just passed away. He was better off than most and still could not afford adequate care. Cancer took him where here in the US he may have lived.
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My information comes from two sources - my last visit to Ukraine in the summer of 2017, and my husband's visits several times a year, the last, within the last two months. Is that recent enough for you?
My comments are based on what I see - and hear.
I am not disputing that corruption is a huge problem and potentially can steal a future from Ukrainians.
What I am saying --is that there have been changes -- and I am NOT saying the problem has had a miraculous solution.What has moved a little-- is that some people-- that is some- see and understand the depth of the problem.
I well appreciate that I am an outsider -and always will be -- but- I do talk to some that have the potential to change a lot.
Often-- having outside eyes and looking at the problem a different way--is not a disadvantage. So far -the first wave of reformers after Maidan have been squashed --- mostly -- they have not given up after being sidelined.
However , the quickest way to depose the old ways would be a charismatic leader that could pull the energy of Maidan behind him/her.
Originally, I had hoped the US would provide a key -- by trading the removal of the old ways for a guarantee of Ukrainian sovereignty.
Reform or stand alone -- simple enough in principle. Obama squandered the opportunity-- and Trump wants to appease Putin and Russia -- so for at least the time being --none of that is possible.
I do not agree that it is impossible to solve this problem.
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“Also note -- a an action being attributed that I did not say . The attempt to misrepresent my actual experiences and in particular my comment -
The attempt to misrepresent my position is dishonest.”
Good grief Jay WTF?
why do you want to turn the little grain of sarcasm I hurled towards you into a mountain?
did I “wound you” Jay?
“a comment made to illustrate that Krimster comments were a supposed to me his personal experience-- which he now concedes they were not-- by way of comparison-- mine were different and first hand.
So -- I note again that you very deliberately decline to state when you were last in Ukraine -- and when the experience you refer to actually happened.”
actually, Jay, what I said, was that I rarely went personally to Ovir
which means exactly what it says, sometimes I went and sometimes delegated to someone else
either case outcome was the same - so back to being irrelevant
beside my comment was only about Ovir, I paid THEM just to avoid the long line
I had a business in Ukraine Jay, I had to pay a Krisha like every other business does
I also wanted to own a boat and have it sit in a marina without it being stolen
there were so many bribes and krishas that had to be paid to do this I gave up
in concluding...
as previously answered several times, “it’s completely irrelevant” when I was last there
it is 100% irrelevant for someone like Bo’s husband when he was last there, and you understand WHY it is irrelevant for him, and whether you accept this or not this reason applies to me as well...
the current state of Ukraine’s corruption is as easy to verify as it is to verify that water is wet
it’s actually independent of ME making the observation and when I did it
your argument of how Ukraine has changed post Maidan is that “some people” are dissatisfied with the level of corruption in Ukraine..
exactly like they were in 2004 for the Orange Revolution!
it literally is a word for word repeat
and somehow this seems like change to you?
meanwhile EVERY POSSIBLE SOURCE will tell you that corruption in Ukraine has not slowed down in the slightest, EVERY POSSIBLE SOURCE
(sarcasm alert)
but to Jay this doesn’t matter, because he’s hearing people in Ukraine repeat EXACTLY what they were saying in 2004, but because Jay didn’t hear it then, he think’s this is “change”
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The average Ukrainian sounds like a load of pussies giving out money to anyone that asks for it. No wonder the country is a basket case. If someone came up to me wanting a bribe they would not get very far, I'lld deck the fucker if needs be.
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The first wave came, plundered the country, then took the proceeds offshore and left.
The second wave came, plundered the country, then took the proceeds offshore and left.
The third wave came, plundered the country, then took the proceeds offshore and left.
The fourth wave came, plundered the country, then took the proceeds offshore and left.
Ukraine is now experiencing the fifth wave, who are mostly bottom dwellers. It's more difficult for them to plunder, as so much has already been stolen. So they will try to hang on.
The problem with rooting out corruption in Ukraine is that, unlike in the West, it is pervasive there, existing from the bottom to the top. You can't just "kill" it on one level. Ukraine would need a Stalin like leader for corruption to cease to exist.
The average Ukrainian sounds like a load of pussies giving out money to anyone that asks for it. No wonder the country is a basket case. If someone came up to me wanting a bribe they would not get very far, I'lld deck the fucker if needs be.
You couldn't even deal with a 20 something girl. No way would you cope with a policeman. By the way, you fail to pay them if they ask, and they come, with friends, to you later, to teach you a lesson. I've known foreigners this has happened to.
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it is always a matter of convenience to simply just pay the bribe
exercising any other alternative would not be worth it...
trench, I wouldn’t recommend fighting with Ukrainian malchicks
after they kick your jhoppa, the police will arrest YOU and demand the exact amount of money they found in your wallet for your release...
it only gets worse from there buddy
so when necessary fork it over and smile
the average tourist can avoid bribery because they have very limited exposure to Ukrainian officials
but even then there are some interesting cases of corruption in Ukraine
like “admission price” on museums, extra charge for pictures, etc
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Tickets are heavily subsidized for Ukrainians. Foreigners should pay more.
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but the money goes into the directors pocket and not the museum's
in Ukraine controlling an asset is like owning it, you can still use it to make money for yourself
so every "Direktor" has their little "side businesses"
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It was that way in Soviet times as well. That money does get distributed.
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The problem with rooting out corruption in Ukraine is that, unlike in the West, it is pervasive there, existing from the bottom to the top. You can't just "kill" it on one level. Ukraine would need a Stalin like leader for corruption to cease to exist. Ukrainians take that mentality with them abroad.
What Boethuis and Krimster notes and hints at is sadly quite true based on my observations. Ukraine unfortunately with all its potential is stuck in some sort of purgatory. It failed to make the basic reforms that countries such as Poland and other countries in the Soviet orbit/control did, on the other hand it has never found a leader such as Putin to steer the country. The will of the people is one thing the actions of the 'leaders' are another reality.
For the good order last year I spent some 200 days in Kiev.
Trenchcoat please do not escalate a dispute with an Ukraine police officer. You will loose.
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it is always a matter of convenience to simply just pay the bribe
exercising any other alternative would not be worth it...
trench, I wouldn’t recommend fighting with Ukrainian malchicks
after they kick your jhoppa, the police will arrest YOU and demand the exact amount of money they found in your wallet for your release...
it only gets worse from there buddy
so when necessary fork it over and smile
the average tourist can avoid bribery because they have very limited exposure to Ukrainian officials
but even then there are some interesting cases of corruption in Ukraine
like “admission price” on museums, extra charge for pictures, etc
Don't be so weak Krimster, go through them all. If people stood up for themselves these crooks would soon realise it's not worth their effort. It's because it's so easy that it happens.
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You couldn't even deal with a 20 something girl. No way would you cope with a policeman. By the way, you fail to pay them if they ask, and they come, with friends, to you later, to teach you a lesson. I've known foreigners this has happened to.
Women are different & that was different.
The answer is to be ready for them and take the fight to them. Good that the foreigners you know stood their ground even if they got their ass kicked the crooks will learn foreigners are not such an easy target. If a Police officer asks for a bribe he is no Police Officer at all, just a crook in fancy dress.
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I didn’t post he fought back. He only stayed alive because he was a government official, and his death would have had serious diplomatic repercussions for the Ukrainian government. There are plenty of stories of idiot foreigners like you, who left Ukraine in coffins. But in each case, they first received warnings they ignored.
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I didn’t post he fought back. He only stayed alive because he was a government official, and his death would have had serious diplomatic repercussions for the Ukrainian government. There are plenty of stories of idiot foreigners like you, who left Ukraine in coffins. But in each case, they first received warnings they ignored.
No doubt some foreigners have put corrupt Ukrainians into coffins also.
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I doubt that.
A number of years ago, some foreigners, Chechen criminals, made demands of authorities while holed up on the roof of a building. The response of Ukrainian authorities was to blow up the building.
Once again you have no idea what you’re talking about.
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I doubt that.
A number of years ago, so me foreigners, Chechen criminals, made demands of authorities while holed up on the roof of a building. The response of Ukrainian authorities was to blow up the building.
Once again you have no idea what you’re talking about.
So you tell me no Ukrainian hasn't demanded money from a foreigner and never had the foreigner slap them one.
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So you tell me no Ukrainian hasn't demanded money from a foreigner and never had the foreigner slap them one.
Are you trying to get arrested and deported from Ukraine? It is not like the UK, where you take their number, accuse them of bullying, and make a formal complaint.
My wife is very wary of the Ukrainian authorities (e.g., police) and thinks it is a hangover from the USSR. She gets shocked by my approach to the authorities, and accepts that it is because I grew up in the English-speaking Free World. You just have to be careful in Ukraine, as it is very different from countries such as Poland where society is more open and western European in attitude.
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Are you trying to get arrested and deported from Ukraine? It is not like the UK, where you take their number, accuse them of bullying, and make a formal complaint.
I know instead you kick their ass for trying it on.
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I know instead you kick their ass for trying it on.
Another Americanism from TC. True Brits say 'arse' not 'ass'.
Also, we do not normally attack the Plods in this country unless you are a member of the criminal fraternity.
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Another Americanism from TC. True Brits say 'arse' not 'ass'.
Also, we do not normally attack the Plods in this country unless you are a member of the criminal fraternity.
Plods in this country tend not to be corrupt and if any are there are channels to report them which will be taken seriously. The few rare cases there have been the dodgy ones have always been outed. Besides the plods on the Ukraine are not real plods like said just crooks in fancy dress. My guess is unlike British plods they will have limited defence training, if any.
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Besides the plods on the Ukraine are not real plods like said just crooks in fancy dress. My guess is unlike British plods they will have limited defence training, if any.
Your guess would be wrong, as usual.
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Trench
you had better exercise self control in Ukraine at all times and all places
be aware of your surroundings especially the people
I personally know of two Americans who antagonized locals and paid the price
one was paralyzed from the neck down after being thrown down a flight of concrete stairs and I have no idea how he left Crimea and what became of him, another was merely hospitalized with his injuries
a third American I know of who was beaten in Ukraine, used to post on this board, and I called him out for lying about it
these are just the ones I personally know of
and forgive me but I only kept track of the American ones...
confrontations can be dangerous in Ukraine, after I lived there a few months I began to carry a knife
I am confident of my fighting ability having been trained by the best African-American ghetto kids America has to offer, this training was involuntary however, and occurred during my youth when I would visit relatives who lived in Brooklyn, NYC where the local African-American kids played a game called “let’s kick whitey’s ass”, can you guess who received the honor to play “whitey” in this game? yesss, it was me!
so I’m not afraid to “mix it up” when need be
but to risk possible injury, death, or imprisonment over a bribe
is NOT WORTH IT TO ME
not to mention whatever business I had before this organization would now be terminated
this is why you pay
and add this person to your network and go on about your day
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. . . Besides the plods on the Ukraine are not real plods like said just crooks in fancy dress. My guess is unlike British plods they will have limited defence training, if any.
Why not try this out and get back to RWD with the results on your interactions?
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If people stood up for themselves these crooks would soon realise it's not worth their effort. It's because it's so easy that it happens.
People have stood up for themselves and got their asses kicked. You don't change an entire culture of corruption by standing up to low level cops in an attempt to reprogram them. You have a revolution and clean government out at the top. Ukraine had that but they didn't clean out enough politicians. Since the ousting of Yanukovych, old cops got fired and new cops got Western Style training. Since then, everybody I talked to in Ukraine said they trust the cops more and got harassed less.
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remember when yushenko did this in early 2005 when he got rid of DAI as his "reform"
didn't change anything
corruption is just part of the culture
it's a feature and not a bug
none of the feeble attempts made by various Ukrainian leaders (strictly for "show")
to tackle corruption ever produced any measurable results
especially since they themselves were up to their eyeballs in it
I am amazed at the resiliency of the Ukrainian people
their determination to go on day by day
no matter their deteriorating living conditions
even if Putin doesn't stage a full military invasion and "finish off" Ukraine
if you look at the continually dropping economic indicators
within 10 years the UAH will be around 100/dollar
and the average Ukrainian will need to work all year to save enough money for a low end smartphone
now ask these people to sacrifice their lives for their country that has left them in poverty
while meanwhile the "other side" will promise them instant prosperity
it's not surprising to me that when Russia invaded Crimea
half of the soldiers in the Ukrainian military instead of standing up and fighting for their country
switched sides and joined the Russian military for higher pay!!
this is the reality
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and when you consider that two of Ukraine’s most important economic zones; Crimea and Donbass are now under Russian control and the growing liklihood of a Russian invasion that will connect Donbass to Crimea to make a land bridge...
and of course it may go even further than that, to the Dnipro maybe, to Odessa maybe...
and meanwhile in Transnistria...
even without that, Ukraine is in a condition of permanent economic decline, in which each year is worse than the previous one...
no great savior on the horizon, the ship is sinking...
soon there will just be the silence of the waves and the cries of the gulls...
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Your guess would be wrong, as usual.
Nah, pretty sure Trench is correct. Most street cops in Ukraine have very little training. If you know how to fight you could take one or two of them probably.
My wife's ex was a cop, and she knew other officers and the old police chief in Odesa.
Usually not a smart idea to fight cops in foreign countries but no need to bend over for them. Puff up and most will move on to the next tourist.
Nobody here must have ever seen an angry Ukrainian woman berate an officer. They don't put up with that shit.
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:D
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The issue is moreso random guys wandering around like Krimster notes a few posts up. Georgians, immigrants, and packs of guys.
Like anywhere the wrong place at the wrong time can be very dangerous.
But I feel safer in Ukraine than almost any other place I have visited. Certainly nothing close to Latin America or 10 blocks from my house here in Florida.
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and of course it may go even further than that, to the Dnipro maybe, to Odessa maybe...
and meanwhile in Transnistria...
When I was there last year the US military was in Odesa. And a new base with US ships between there and Mariupol.
But I suppose a back door deal could be made for that slice of territory.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/08/14/ukraine-hosts-us-military-permanently-stationed-on-its-soil.html
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Nah, pretty sure Trench is correct. Most street cops in Ukraine have very little training. If you know how to fight you could take one or two of them probably.
My wife's ex was a cop, and she knew other officers and the old police chief in Odesa.
Usually not a smart idea to fight cops in foreign countries but no need to bend over for them. Puff up and most will move on to the next tourist.
Nobody here must have ever seen an angry Ukrainian woman berate an officer. They don't put up with that shit.
I had a friend in Ukraine whose uncle was the local colonel. He retired in 2013. In Kyiv, they did get training, similar to in the West. Canadian police went to train them after the collapse.
I’m not as safe in Kyiv as I am in my city.
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Think it was mostly procedures, sensitivity training, etc. Similar to what the US provided recently.
http://hpou.org/ukraine-police-learning-westernized-police-traditions/ (http://hpou.org/ukraine-police-learning-westernized-police-traditions/)
Ukraine does not have the resources to send the guys to practice ranges, advanced take down training, and so on. Even the US military does not provide that to our troops and we have a massive budget. Not saying there isn't a hulking Ukrainian cop that can issue a beat down, I am sure there are, but not the norm. Most guys over there are lightweights.
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"When I was there last year the US military was in Odesa. And a new base with US ships between there and Mariupol. "
believe it or not, almost exactly 100 years ago, we had the same situation, but no deal was made...
google "USS Whipple" a US Navy ship active in the Black Sea at the end of the Russian Revolution
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"Most guys over there are lightweights."
no, they are NOT lightweights, depending on the age group, many will be ex-military
do you have any idea what a shit storm Russian military training is
let's see you go through it, it's likely the guy you're squaring up against is a veteran of 20-30 street fights (how many for you?)
and would love to rip a rich foreigner like you a "new one"
and he won't be alone, he'll have his "druzya"
like I say "brat" you better be packing a nice shiny "nosh"
because you wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell against these guys!
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no, they are NOT lightweights, depending on the age group, many will be ex-military
do you have any idea what a shit storm Russian military training is
let's see you go through it, it's likely the guy you're squaring up against is a veteran of 20-30 street fights (how many for you?)
and would love to rip a rich foreigner like you a "new one"
and he won't be alone, he'll have his "druzya"
like I say "brat" you better be packing a nice shiny "nosh"
because you wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell against these guys!
Most I have seen are lightweights. 160 pounds versus me at 220. I have ex Ukrainian military buddies here in Miami. Come meet Sergei with me at Tatyanas nightclub. We go talk story over vodka all the time. They cant even feed those guys. I would wreck most of them.
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I'm 6'3" 220
I know the little "feral Russians" you're talkin about
not THOSE guys
no, bigger guys
ex military
I knew one who became a contractor in Iraq, much bigger guy than me and taught martial arts as well
there's a LOT of alpha males in Ukraine
keep your eye on them
and DRUNKS, especially DRUNKS
but even the little feral Russian guys have likely been in quite a few fights and comport themselves much better than their American counter-part, and if you had 3-4 of them and they were all drunk as hell...
you might not do as well as you think...
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My FIL was less than 160 lbs, but was a boxer and in his youth, could fell men over 200 lbs.
I asked the better half, and he says police training is geared to their units. Some get full military style training.
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Think it was mostly procedures, sensitivity training, etc. Similar to what the US provided recently.
http://hpou.org/ukraine-police-learning-westernized-police-traditions/ (http://hpou.org/ukraine-police-learning-westernized-police-traditions/)
Ukraine does not have the resources to send the guys to practice ranges, advanced take down training, and so on. Even the US military does not provide that to our troops and we have a massive budget. Not saying there isn't a hulking Ukrainian cop that can issue a beat down, I am sure there are, but not the norm. Most guys over there are lightweights.
No, the RCMP has sent officers to Ukraine to train police in all areas, and some Ukrainians have trained at their headquarters in Regina.
Have a look at Berkut forces. Those are paramilitary forces.
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I know the little "feral Russians" you're talkin about
not THOSE guys
no, bigger guys
ex military
Of course, I already mentioned this. My buddy Sergei is one of them. Scars from hockey all over his face. You don't square up against him.
Not saying there isn't a hulking Ukrainian cop that can issue a beat down, I am sure there are, but not the norm.
and DRUNKS, especially DRUNKS
but even the little feral Russian guys have likely been in quite a few fights and comport themselves much better than their American counter-part, and if you had 3-4 of them and they were all drunk as hell...
The groups of drunks are the most dangerous I think. That is where you want to be careful walking alone at night.
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Also, even if the police are "lightweight", refuse them once and they will come back in greater numbers.
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Have a look at Berkut forces. Those are paramilitary forces.
Yes, very small numbers Boe. Like a SWAT team here. They don't stand on the street corners to shakedown tourists.
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Also, even if the police are "lightweight", refuse them once and they will come back in greater numbers.
Depends if they can find you again.
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I must say, what a freaking pissing contest this has become.. e-penis contest...
How many of you yankees would even think about getting in a fight with one of your own cops in US, none I would believe for one simple reason, police there - as in Ukraine - carry guns and sticks and aint afraid to use them if needed.
Sure stand up to them if they try and shake you down, but get physical, and you loose..almost guaranteed each and every time.. with any luck, you maybe get out alive.
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Yes, very small numbers Boe. Like a SWAT team here. They don't stand on the street corners to shakedown tourists.
Point taken, however, I still think you are underestimating their training.
ETA - Here is an article I found from the 2015 agreement (there were previous agreements with Canadian forces, dating back to the 1990's) -
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/bringing-new-policing-to-ukraine-416298734.html
Depends if they can find you again.
It's Ukraine and you're a foreigner. Of course they can find you.
Your lack of knowledge of how Ukrainian society works is appalling. You are completely oblivious to what you don't know.
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Think odds are the dodgy police officers will target the most easiest prey, now no offense to US forum members but think of your archetypal loud mouthed, stick out like a sore thumb, unaware of his surroundings fat American guy. The odds of a guy like that turning out to be a martial arts genis are pretty remote, anyone else, who knows.
When I was on Odessa last year two police officers passed me, they were both pretty young, say late teens/early twenties. Neither looked particularly strong or tough. One seemingly gave a slight motion to the other towards me as I walked along the pavement. The other motioned back to him very dismissively. I perceived this as potentially them scouting around for prey. The second I think more experienced than the first at spotting the targets to go for. They were both of the 12-13 stone range and slightly shorter than me, me about 14 stone and not much fat.
That said I also noticed some hugely built guys sat around drinking outside many of the bars/restaurants in Odessa city centre. With these guys if not able to avoid then would be better to let mouth do the talking than directly getting into one.
Last time I was in Kiev I used my card more than anything and kept my money low. At the moment I'm investing in a good concealed money belt, idea being I will try to keep all notes out of wad and just have cards to be on the safe side. I can always get more notes out of cash machines as and when I need them. The idea of anyone taking my cash just gauls me.
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It's Ukraine and you're a foreigner. Of course they can find you.
Your lack of knowledge of how Ukrainian society works is appalling. You are completely oblivious to what you don't know.
So in a city the size of Odessa which in the summer will have loads of foreigners they are going to find you, lol.
Unless you hang out in the touristy areas I think not, not immediately anyway. I'm guessing there will be enough time to go back to hotel, etc, pack and get the hell out of dodge by taxi to another city. Or just jeep your head down in hotel for a good number of day, change clothes and grow or shave a beard.
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Think odds are the dodgy police officers will target the most easiest prey, now no offense to US forum members but think of your archetypal loud mouthed, stick out like a sore thumb, unaware of his surroundings fat American guy. The odds of a guy like that turning out to be a martial arts genis are pretty remote, anyone else, who knows.
Despite the conversation so far, which has all been about hypotheticals, Ukrainian police are not shaking down anyone these days, for the most part. That is part of the anti corruption drive. They were dismissive of you as, in their eyes, yet another "Western loser" coming to sleep with Ukrainian tarts.
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So in a city the size of Odessa which in the summer will have loads of foreigners they are going to find you, lol.
Unless you hang out in the touristy areas I think not, not immediately anyway. I'm guessing there will be enough time to go back to hotel, etc, pack and get the hell out of dodge by taxi to another city. Or just jeep your head down in hotel for a good number of day, change clothes and grow or shave a beard.
Yes, they will find you. You stick out like a sore thumb wherever you go.
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I also have to ask, why are you traveling to a country where you have such an obvious lack of respect for the locals?
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I must say, what a freaking pissing contest this has become.. e-penis contest...
How many of you yankees would even think about getting in a fight with one of your own cops in US, none I would believe for one simple reason, police there - as in Ukraine - carry guns and sticks and aint afraid to use them if needed.
Sure stand up to them if they try and shake you down, but get physical, and you loose..almost guaranteed each and every time.. with any luck, you maybe get out alive.
Very true. The better half just got home, and I told him about this thread. His first question was, "And you're hanging out with these idiots?" Then, he reminded me, that assaulting a police officer is a criminal code offense, with a range of sentences. He then said, "Believe me, you don't want to be a foreigner in a Ukrainian jail."
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it would be WAY tough for a foreigner in a Ukrainian prison unless you were connected or paid for protection
your status would be on the pedophile level, you would have to partner with them for protection
real fun group to hang out with...
8 to a cell sleeping on a concrete floor
your sleeping spot will be the one next
to the hole in the floor toilet
remember to face away from it when you sleep
so as not to be splattered...
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Pedophiles don't last in Ukrainian prisons. They are usually killed within a month.
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imagine how tough the ones who survive are...
then imagine in a large metropolitan city in Russia or Ukraine
what percentage of the population has been to prison
and what that would do to someone when they got out
so how many of these people are just walking around you every day?
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Keep in mind that not everyone in prison in Ukraine is there for crime. Even after the collapse. men were jailed for political reasons, though usually on fabricated criminal charges, as there are no longer any political crimes in the criminal code.
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Sure stand up to them if they try and shake you down
Think this was the initial argument. Nobody is looking to rumble with officers in a foreign country, but don't hand over your wallet to a couple skinny cops trying to shake you down.
But it's funny that so many think Ukraine is so scary. It's not as bad as many make it out to be.
And like Boe and Trench say below -
Ukrainian police are not shaking down anyone these days, for the most part.
Think odds are the dodgy police officers will target the most easiest prey
When I was on Odessa last year two police officers passed me, they were both pretty young, say late teens/early twenties. Neither looked particularly strong or tough. One seemingly gave a slight motion to the other towards me as I walked along the pavement. The other motioned back to him very dismissively. I perceived this as potentially them scouting around for prey.
That said I also noticed some hugely built guys sat around drinking outside many of the bars/restaurants in Odessa city centre. With these guys if not able to avoid then would be better to let mouth do the talking than directly getting into one.
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How many of you yankees would even think about getting in a fight with one of your own cops in US,
Think Trench is a Brit.
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I must say, what a freaking pissing contest this has become.. e-penis contest...
How many of you yankees would even think about getting in a fight with one of your own cops in US, none I would believe for one simple reason, police there - as in Ukraine - carry guns and sticks and aint afraid to use them if needed.
Sure stand up to them if they try and shake you down, but get physical, and you loose..almost guaranteed each and every time.. with any luck, you maybe get out alive.
Nightwish arguments between citizens and police happen all the time in the US. Just look at youtube and social media. There are literally hundreds of examples available.
I live in NYC and have witnessed arguments between citizens and NYPD's finest. Even though it is perfectly legal to video American cops while they are working the NYPD frequently tries to prohibit videoing of arrests and police work. Citizens continue videoing even when threatened with arrest. Citizens are often arrested because they refuse to stop filming. In the overwhelming majority of arrests they are released within hours and no charges are filed. Of course nothing happens to the NYPD officers unless they assault the citizens. These police-citizen interactions are common in NYC and other large US cities.
It is important to remember there are legitimate reasons to question a cop's questions and/or actions even in the US.
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The prisons in Ukraine are not as bad as some here say either. We have relatives that have served time in Ukraine. Yea, it sucks and conditions are poor but better to be locked up in Ukraine than here in Florida or Latin America.
No rapes I am told, not as much violence between races like we have here. You can bring them clothes, food, chai, etc.
I have also done some charity work with Penal Colony number 74 in Odesa on Lystfdorskaya. It's not so bad.
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I think it depends very much on where you're held and the charges. There have been a lot of human rights investigations on Ukrainian prisons.
Here is one article, from last year -
http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ukraines-repressive-corrupt-prisons-struggle-unreformed.html
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Nightwish arguments between citizens and police happen all the time in the US. Just look at youtube and social media. There are literally hundreds of examples available.
I live in NYC and have witnessed arguments between citizens and NYPD's finest. Even though it is perfectly legal to video American cops while they are working the NYPD frequently tries to prohibit videoing of arrests and police work. Citizens continue videoing even when threatened with arrest. Citizens are often arrested because they refuse to stop filming. In the overwhelming majority of arrests they are released within hours and no charges are filed. Of course nothing happens to the NYPD officers unless they assault the citizens. These police-citizen interactions are common in NYC and other large US cities.
It is important to remember there are legitimate reasons to question a cop's questions and/or actions even in the US.
I believe Nightwish meant physically assaulting an officer, as that’s what Trench said. Most Americans who assaulted an officer would be charged.
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I believe Nightwish meant physically assaulting an officer, as that’s what Trench said. Most Americans who assaulted an officer would be charged.
Even if we're talking about physically assaulting an American police officer there are still numerous instances where citizens escape arrest. For instance many of the demonstrations where BLM and antifa protest and there are many such demonstrations, result in few arrests.
Either because the demonstrators are masked and escape back into the crowds making ID impossible or because the assault resulted in no harm and it was difficult to ID and/or apprehend the suspected assailant.
It's true that if there's a couple of cops standing around and someone assaults one cop that person is going to be arrested however when it comes to large protests the rules change. The police simply can't go charging into a hostile crowd to arrest someone who sucker punched a cop. The police would cause far more problems than that one arrest would warrant.
Boethius, I believe you're Canadian? Policing and law enforcement can be different between our two countries. A fellow lawyer working for the Brooklyn DA tells me that her office would be overwhelmed if they charged everyone who casually assaulted a member of the NYPD when there are large demonstrations in NYC. Demonstrators for large organizations such as BLM, antifa and others know this. They literally put on workshops on how to avoid arrest during the protests.
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Sure stand up to them if they try and shake you down, but get physical, and you loose..almost guaranteed each and every time.. with any luck, you maybe get out alive.
The first beating in public view usually isn't the worst beating one will get for fighting cops in most countries. For some people they'll get tortured in jail everyday. Steak and lobster is definately off the menu while sitting jail. It's possible all food will be off the menu.
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I also have to ask, why are you traveling to a country where you have such an obvious lack of respect for the locals?
Urm, for the Ukrainian tarts :D
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Jay-Z
here is your Ukraine!
between a rock and a hard place
how much longer will it last
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Three and a half years ago, Ukrainians rose against corruption. This year, Ernst and Young’s Corruption Perception rating found that Ukraine was the most corrupt of 41 corrupt countries. Russia was sixteenth. Eighty-eight percent of Ukrainians believed that corruption was widespread in their county.
The foreign professionals, a motley crew of reformers who were invited to help fix the Ukrainian economy—named variags after ancient Vikings—have mostly left.
Chicago-born Natalie Jaresko, the finance minister of Ukraine who was invited to come from the U.S. to fix the Ukrainian economy, decided not to wait for the results of the reforms she enacted. She is now back in America and is executive director of a U.S. federal control board overseeing Puerto Rico’s finances, with a comfortable annual salary of $625,000.
Mikheil Saakashvili, the variag from the former Soviet republic of Georgia, gave his diagnosis: “Ukraine would need another 20 years of toil to rise economically to the level of the pre-Maidan years.” Poroshenko fired the former president of Georgia from his position as governor of the Odessa region.
Ukrainian reformers, like post-Maidan Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, have also resigned. In an interview in March, he estimated his net worth at “more or less $1 million.” Most believe it is on the “more” side; some even estimate a billion U.S. dollars.
Head of the Ukrainian National Bank, Valeria Gontareva, having declared $2 million in income in 2016, resigned from her post in May. The list goes on.
In May, Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman said he was prepared to resign if his ambitious retirement reform bill did not pass Parliament. The reform bill would increase monthly retirement payouts to 12 million Ukrainians from $51 to $60, or even $70. Before Maidan, payouts were $190.
The average monthly salary in Ukraine is about $230. Before Maidan, it was $410.
This year, real estate analysts predict that the value of apartments in Kiev will sink another 10 percent—on top of 2016’s 25 percent drop. A one-bedroom apartment in Kiev can be bought for $15,000. Real estate prices have sunken to 1990s-levels, Ukrainian portal Vesti reported.
Free medicine, which is guaranteed by Article 49 of the Ukrainian Constitution, no longer exists.
In the meantime, Ukraine’s national debt is rising. In 2016, it grew 8.3 percent. The Ministry of Finance reported that it is now more than $74 billion—67 percent of country’s GDP.
Poroshenko says that visa-free travel to Europe, which allows Ukrainian tourists to stay in EU countries for 90 days with no rights to employment, is what the Maidan was all about. This was what they were fighting for on Kiev’s streets in 2014.
According to UN data, almost 60 percent of Ukrainians live below the poverty line. In 2015, 28.6 percent did. Only five to 10 percent of Ukrainians meet the financial standards necessary to enjoy the newly acquired freedom to travel to EU. Thirty-four percent of Ukrainians want to leave their country. The highest share of potential emigrants (55 percent) are people younger than 30 years-old.
those who love Ukraine can only weep over what's coming next..
but let's tell it the way it is...
Italy's debt to GDP is 132 percent
Greece's debt to GDP is 181 percent
UK debt to GDP is 83 percent
2016 figures.
I think Ukraine's economy is bad but still not near critical. Unemployment in Ukraine is currently around 9.9 percent, inflation is still taking its toll most I think at around 16 percent so causing much hardship for Ukrainians with prices of goods in shops vastly inflated out of many of their price range.
In the UK we had not too dissimilar bad economic figures many decades ago but we are not too bad off these days. I think though with Ukraine some of the unemployment figures could be worse than they potentially are since many Ukrainians seek illegal employment in the likes of Poland. That may steadily start to change in the coming years gradually over time when the UK leave the EU. With the end of East European EU countries right to work in the UK, many from Poland, many will return home/not be able to go to the UK anymore to work. Hence the knock on affect could be that Ukrainians are no longer needed for the workforce in Poland and other former eastern bloc countries. So there could be a tightening up along the border there.
Of course some Polish will remain in the UK and some will find work in other EU countries such as France & Germany, etc (and this may have a telling affect on the native populace there), but I think in general more Polish will stay in Poland. The government there will no doubt respond more firmly to concern then over illegal migrant workforce.
Interesting that Poroshenko doesn't hold out much hope for any membership of the EU instead contenting himself with visa free travel. Sounds like he may be trying to steer the country towards a neutral situation between the EU & Russia to try and end the conflict.
So unemployment could well increase in Ukraine in future years perhaps, so more misery for Ukrainian people and perhaps more motivation for Ukrainian women to seek husbands abroad in more stable countries.
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Italy GDP per capita - $30,507 2017
Greece GDP per capita - $18,637 2017
Ukraine GDP per capita - $ 2,905 2017
Ukraine's unofficial unemployment is likely double your number, and millions of Ukrainians work abroad.
Yeah, their situations are really comparable. :rolleyes:
Poroshenko likely has been told by the EU that membership is not in the cards, because it isn't.
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Italy GDP per capita - $30,507 2017
Greece GDP per capita - $18,637 2017
Ukraine GDP per capita - $ 2,905 2017
Ukraine's unofficial unemployment is likely double your number, and millions of Ukrainians work abroad.
Yeah, their situations are really comparable. :rolleyes:
Poroshenko likely has been told by the EU that membership is not in the cards, because it isn't.
And people think Italy is in trouble, lol.