2nd Trip planning

[JayH]

Nice to hear a few more details --hard as it may be to believe we are all interested to hear !

On learning language--forum has differing views.

My thoughts--really to hard to learn to advance stage that it can be much use and your time can be put to better use. ( like increase income to allow more time away!!)
What is possible-- learn the alphabet. That allows you to read signs and decipher instructions etc Even with the first stages it can help a lot --everything from street signs,what shops are what,navigate a train station,guess a menu etc etc
Over time you can learn basic words -- and build on that.Being able to understand general questions or at least get the gist of a sentence is the start of learning.
What I have found is that the exposure to the language helps you learn --so you have to hear it regularly to be able to distinguish words.
Over time I not after a week or so there now I start hearing the words-- and I can understand sufficiently to have it alleged that I speak Russian !
Which brings me to my next point ! When I first started my search the obvious thing to me was to learn Russian.Of course this was pre 2014 and not the issue it has become. I am usually able to tell when Ukrainian is spoken but --I decided to focus on building my Russian understanding --on the basis I will be forever starting all over again.
Over the last few years Ukrainian is being used more -- voluntarily --- as a mark of the national pride most Ukrainians now feel. That applies all over Ukraine-even in cities very close to the eastern front.
Nikolaev is a predominantly Russian speaking area  ( as first choice)  so staying with learning Russian is probably the choice.If your girl says learn Ukrainian-- I would do exactly that!!
As an example of the change -- I know of many households that switched from Russian to speaking Ukrainian to each other and as first choice.It is not unusual to hear a conversation that is completely mixed !
My experiences of learning Russian pretty much mirrors my skills in French & German ( which I learnt at school) and Italian that I learnt later. In each case --you need practice all the time to maintain what you have learnt --but in about 3 weeks constant exposure it starts coming back
Above all else --if the long game is for her to move to English speaking country -- the major effort should be in assisting her to improve her English skills.

[wallm]

Language is a problem with this girl. She speaks very little English and I speak more Russian than she speaks English. She is taking private lessons now. I hired interpreter for our meetings. I started learning the alphabet before the trip. Just need to stay motivated as it seems complicated. What programs should I consider? I looked for Russian classes in nearby community colleges and none offer them other than for credit. Weird. I recall someone mentioned Russian Accelerator. Is it any good? I tried a few skype lessons from Nova Mova in Kiev. Not really convenient for me with time difference. I am determined however to learn as it would make life a lot easier for me.

[JayH]

I don't have any specific suggestions on how to learn -I am sure others will.
When me ex ( in Aus) was learning Italian she had tapes that she put on in the car as she drove to and from work each day-- and at every opportunity !
By default -- I got to learn too--by hearing and saying the words and sentences. At that time I had family on both sides that Italian was first language and many family members fluent -- so I did get to 'show" what i had learnt .
My ex did get to a fairly competent stage with that method and I can still understand a reasonable amount ( not enough recent practice though ).
I like this concept because the emphasise is on simple practical learning and not to much theory ! The purists will decry that I am sure !
From practical experience -- Skype is the best two tool for both of you. You can talk directly,type & read  in 2 languages ( I like clownfish) and you can say and see words at the same time. You can both learn simultaneously -- and have fun doing it.
Above all else-it requires patience and tolerance -- but if the will is there ,it can happen.

FWIW-- personally -- I see no problem in your situation -- work with it and on it,

Added Later -- I forgot to mention this. Most cities have groups that gather together to practice their English skills together  -- as volunteers  in a semi formal organised way. Basically a get together of those trying to learn English. I was invited to assist after a chance meeting  while walking in a park when a guy overheard us speaking English.
Subsequently I have attended in numerous cities  and as a result I have got to meet many people . Often socialising after class etc . I would also observe these classes tend to have far more girls than guys attending !  My Ukrainian ex was always VERY interested to know what the girls in classes were like !!  She was with me at that first invitation and we went to the meeting that day for a short time . Her English is excellent and she correctly observed that the people leading that group had very bad accents !!LoL!!
I have also attended formal English learning classes  and the teachers are not always good !

[Trenchcoat]

Language is a problem with this girl. She speaks very little English and I speak more Russian than she speaks English. She is taking private lessons now. I hired interpreter for our meetings. I started learning the alphabet before the trip. Just need to stay motivated as it seems complicated. What programs should I consider? I looked for Russian classes in nearby community colleges and none offer them other than for credit. Weird. I recall someone mentioned Russian Accelerator. Is it any good? I tried a few skype lessons from Nova Mova in Kiev. Not really convenient for me with time difference. I am determined however to learn as it would make life a lot easier for me.

Google Translate App on you're phone Wall, it now speaks out Russian or Ukrainian when you speak in English, just tap the mic icon inside the app. It also translates signs if you tap the camera icon in the app, its very impressive. So no need now to learn Russian or Ukrainian, ah the joys of modern technology Finally I don't have to go through the ordeal of learning a language that can be arduous and take years, hurrah. I think we can all safely assume this sort of technology will only go from strength to strength from here on out, perhaps some wearable technology next which will even more convenient. Good for the girl to learn English though, its really her that is going to have to know the language to fit in more readily in the US if/when its goes that way. The girl I am going to see knows only limited English but enough to communicate well enough with so know what you mean on that front. That is where the joys of Google Translate can now assist, it can really help demolish those language barriers which seemed impenetrable before. A great advancement and just at the right time for us.

[ML]

Just need to stay motivated as it seems complicated.  I am determined however to learn as it would make life a lot easier for me.

Your learning Russian will NOT make your life or your gal's life easier.
It will make life HARDER for you and your gal.
The more Russian or Ukrainian you know . . . the longer your gal will take to learn English.
She will be slowed in learning English, adapting to USA, feeling comfortable in USA, getting job in USA, etc., etc.
She will feel isolated and be ready to head back to country where she understands everyone.

Unless, of course, you are going to go live in her country permanently.

[wallm]

Your learning Russian will NOT make your life or your gal's life easier.
It will make life HARDER for you and your gal.
The more Russian or Ukrainian you know . . . the longer your gal will take to learn English.
She will be slowed in learning English, adapting to USA, feeling comfortable in USA, getting job in USA, etc., etc.
She will feel isolated and be ready to head back to country where she understands everyone.

Unless, of course, you are going to go live in her country permanently.

If I scratch my head anymore after reading that, I might start losing hair.

As for living there, hell no. I do not think Ukraine is a country I can be happy living in for more than a few weeks. 

[ML]

Quote from: ML on Today at 10:35:40 AM
The more Russian or Ukrainian you know . . . the longer your gal will take to learn English.

If I scratch my head anymore after reading that, I might start losing hair.

Are you seriously saying you do not understand the logic of what I have written ??????

Go to any immigrant enclave in USA (or any other country) and notice how many, many, many of the people living there have never learned English (or the local language).

How can they survive ???  . . . . because the people around them speak their language!!!!

You learn to speak in Russian or Ukrainian and your wife will lapse into that language when living in your home in USA.

My now wife took one year of Intensive English at University when she first arrived here . . . and spoke only English (obviously) with me at our home.

She had many classmates who insisted on living with others from their home country (rather than living with American room mates).

And stupid of all stupids . . . they continued to speak their native language at all times outside the classroom.

Result . . . many of them ended up increasing their English ability by virtually ZERO.

Meanwhile, my wife got award for achieving highest TOEFL score of all who took at the end of the one year.

And she passed a so called "Speak Test" which allowed her to be GTA while pursuing Masters degree in Math, and now she is teaching math at the University.

If I had spoken Russian or Ukrainian with her in our home . . . she would have achieved ZERO of the above.

[Trenchcoat]

If I scratch my head anymore after reading that, I might start losing hair.

As for living there, hell no. I do not think Ukraine is a country I can be happy living in for more than a few weeks. 

Wall, I agree with ML on this one, what he says might sound strange but its true. The girl I am speaking to speaks little English but rejects me and no doubt herself using translation programs as no doubt she would come to rely upon them, just as I have. For me it is not a problem as I am not looking to permanently live there (a little while would be ok, but) she is going to move to whichever country she finds her man (theoretically). She needs to learn the language of that country most likely English . Just think of it, if you cannot see it as a joy living in Ukraine more than a few weeks, how will it be for her the other way around. I am much the same as you as the pounding of the culture surrounding gets a bit much after a while if you cannot relate to it, i.e the language. She will likely fell the same the other way around unless the culture is accessible to her. Like I say with the advances of technology these days there is really no point any more learning a language to any great extent (other than the basics out of pure fun) unless you are going to live there permanently to really bed down in the society. Plus I'm lazy

[wallm]

Quote from: ML on Today at 10:35:40 AM
The more Russian or Ukrainian you know . . . the longer your gal will take to learn English.

Are you seriously saying you do not understand the logic of what I have written ??????

Go to any immigrant enclave in USA (or any other country) and notice how many, many, many of the people living there have never learned English (or the local language).

How can they survive ???  . . . . because the people around them speak their language!!!!

You learn to speak in Russian or Ukrainian and your wife will lapse into that language when living in your home in USA.

My now wife took one year of Intensive English at University when she first arrived here . . . and spoke only English (obviously) with me at our home.

She had many classmates who insisted on living with others from their home country (rather than living with American room mates).

And stupid of all stupids . . . they continued to speak their native language at all times outside the classroom.

Result . . . many of them ended up increasing their English ability by virtually ZERO.

Meanwhile, my wife got award for achieving highest TOEFL score of all who took at the end of the one year.

And she passed a so called "Speak Test" which allowed her to be GTA while pursuing Masters degree in Math, and now she is teaching math at the University.

If I had spoken Russian or Ukrainian with her in our home . . . she would have achieved ZERO of the above.

Actually I thought it was you trying to be funny as usual. She and I had talked about this. She had been taking English classes already. She asked me how I can help her when she is in the US to learn English. I told her about ESL classes available here using intensive instruction. She asked would that help her become fluent so she can work. I said it will take a year or so of it and she should be fine. She asked if I will support her financially for that time period. I laughed and she got the point. I have no concerns about this girl not learning the language. She is smart and motivated. I want to learn Russian because I am helpless in Ukraine when I have to fend for myself and people I am talking to know nothing about English. And I would like to be able to converse a little with her family who don't speak a lick of English.

[wallm]

Just think of it, if you cannot see it as a joy living in Ukraine more than a few weeks, how will it be for her the other way around.

It will be heaven for her the other way around. Have you seen Ukraine much? It is is a nightmare in some areas. The infrastructure is awful. The roads are like obstacle courses with drivers never staying in their lanes as they try to navigate the large pot holes. Most people are not middle class according to the ladies who talk to me. There is a really rich class and the rest  mostly poor. Would you want to live in Ukraine if you actually can live in the US and are successful here? I would never consider it. Perhaps some might do it, for reasons I don't know. On the other hand, if I am a Pom, I might think of it.

And one more reason I do not want to live there. Putin can take the whole country in 2 days if he wants. And we can't do about it.

[wallm]

All right. Let us stay on topic. I take back my comment about Putin taking Ukraine.

[Bounder]

freepersonals.ru

I tried most sites recommended here. Found many to be trash such as luckylovers.net, etc. YMMV.

Many sites seem to have similar looking search engine.

I spent almost 7 weeks in Ukraine since the beginning of November. Postponed flights back home multiple times. Costly but I was going to do whatever it took especially since I am so far away. I was also flexible. When I planned to fly around, some here suggested trains especially in winter. Changed my plans, didn't care about losing a plane fare. Tried different things. It was hard to get myself to train station in Kiev, find the platform & train. But once I got the hang of it, not bad. Viator now offers $21 transfer from/to KBP. Convenient if the hotel/apartment doesn't offer transfer but almost all do, even though some cars they use are from 1970s. WTF!!

I got a little bit worried about missing my train to Moscow, because my 'mini-hotel' (which I'd happily recommend) was too central and the cab companies either never delivered a driver or said outright that it wasn't worth it because I was so close to train station.  Yet, there was no way I was walking there with all my luggage packed for my move to Moscow.  Finally, one guy agreed and actually showed up.  I was worried we wouldn't get out of the parking lane as we were spinning tires in the fresh snowfall in the uncleared parking lane.  Amazingly, we did eventually make it out into traffic, but boy was that car a shuddering shit heap.  We actually stalled while coasting at one point.  But he did get me there and I did catch my train in the end.

And be ready to get over disappointments, quickly. And move on regardless of how hot she is. That is the most sound advice I got on this site. It is hard to do but it works.

I remember 2TallBill giving such advice and good advice it is.  Easier said than done maybe....

One final piece of advice...be nice to them even if there is zero chemistry. It helps guys who come after you.

You should always be nice to the girl.  It's basically a blind date, and if she doesn't like you, it certainly isn't personal.  It just is what it is.

[Bounder]

I was talking KBP to/from hotels/apartments. I did see the mini-buses at KBP this week. For now I am comfortable paying a little more and doing the sure thing, especially since my russian is non-existent. If only I could learn that language. Suggestions are welcome.

Start with the Alphabet.  Seriously, I hope that doesn't sound demeaning to you.  With signage, etc., many very simply things will be instantly solved (e.g. restaurant, coffee, etc).  It also seems to be a bit in fashion these days to steal directly from English, so even though they have "Gostinitsa", many places will advertise themselves as "Hotel".  All in Russian script, of course.

I downloaded a free 30 lesson audio mp3 series for learning Russian.  I really liked the way the language was presented and felt I was learning a lot, that I sprung the $400usd for the "Russian Accelerator", the creation of the same guy who hooked me on the free audio series.  It's worth checking out and you have 30 audio lessons to decide whether you want to throw some money down.  Let me know if you're interested and I'll send you the link for the audio series.

[Bounder]

Language is a problem with this girl. She speaks very little English and I speak more Russian than she speaks English. She is taking private lessons now. I hired interpreter for our meetings. I started learning the alphabet before the trip. Just need to stay motivated as it seems complicated. What programs should I consider? I looked for Russian classes in nearby community colleges and none offer them other than for credit. Weird. I recall someone mentioned Russian Accelerator. Is it any good? I tried a few skype lessons from Nova Mova in Kiev. Not really convenient for me with time difference. I am determined however to learn as it would make life a lot easier for me.

Sorry, I'm catching up on this thread and have been reading the messages in sequence.  As you can see, I mentioned the Russian Accelerator.  I sprung for it and I think it's worth a go.  But there's a 30 lesson free audio series you can try out to get a taste of what it will be like.

You are courageous.  I wouldn't be wiling to try to pursue a relationship through a translator, but different people have different results, and I'm not trying to put you off it.  You speak more Russian than she English.... So how good is your Russian.  That right there seems a feat.

[Bounder]

Google Translate App on you're phone Wall, it now speaks out Russian or Ukrainian when you speak in English, just tap the mic icon inside the app. It also translates signs if you tap the camera icon in the app, its very impressive. So no need now to learn Russian or Ukrainian, ah the joys of modern technology Finally I don't have to go through the ordeal of learning a language that can be arduous and take years, hurrah. I think we can all safely assume this sort of technology will only go from strength to strength from here on out, perhaps some wearable technology next which will even more convenient. Good for the girl to learn English though, its really her that is going to have to know the language to fit in more readily in the US if/when its goes that way. The girl I am going to see knows only limited English but enough to communicate well enough with so know what you mean on that front. That is where the joys of Google Translate can now assist, it can really help demolish those language barriers which seemed impenetrable before. A great advancement and just at the right time for us.

Trench, yes, it is "impressive", i.e the technology itself, but if you've had any meaningful use with google translate, you will know how often it gets it wrong.  And technology does not replace sincere efforts to speak in the tongue of the person you are with, the latter being much appreciated, even if you completely fail.

[Bounder]

Quote from: ML on Today at 10:35:40 AM
The more Russian or Ukrainian you know . . . the longer your gal will take to learn English.

Are you seriously saying you do not understand the logic of what I have written ??????

Go to any immigrant enclave in USA (or any other country) and notice how many, many, many of the people living there have never learned English (or the local language).

How can they survive ???  . . . . because the people around them speak their language!!!!

You learn to speak in Russian or Ukrainian and your wife will lapse into that language when living in your home in USA.

My now wife took one year of Intensive English at University when she first arrived here . . . and spoke only English (obviously) with me at our home.

She had many classmates who insisted on living with others from their home country (rather than living with American room mates).

And stupid of all stupids . . . they continued to speak their native language at all times outside the classroom.

Result . . . many of them ended up increasing their English ability by virtually ZERO.

Meanwhile, my wife got award for achieving highest TOEFL score of all who took at the end of the one year.

And she passed a so called "Speak Test" which allowed her to be GTA while pursuing Masters degree in Math, and now she is teaching math at the University.

If I had spoken Russian or Ukrainian with her in our home . . . she would have achieved ZERO of the above.

I have to respectfully disagree.  While it could be a downfall, he would have to learn Russian really well.  And even then, the two aren't directly connected and there's no reason she wouldn't learn good English if she understands the need for it and the benefits of doing it.

Our first language is the code we have learned to express meaning and is the biggest window into our souls.  Discouraging someone from trying to understand how his or her partner sees and understands the world, and expresses their thoughts on it is wrongheaded, IMHO.

[Bounder]

It will be heaven for her the other way around. Have you seen Ukraine much? It is is fuking nightmare in some areas. The infrastructure is awful. The roads are like obstacle courses with drivers never staying in their lanes as they try to navigate the large pot holes. Most people are not middle class according to the ladies who talk to me. There is a really rich class and the rest  mostly poor. Would you want to live in Ukraine if you actually can live in the US and are successful here? I would never consider it. Perhaps some might do it, for reasons I don't know. On the other hand, if I am a Pom, I might think of it.

And one more reason I do not want to live there. Putin can take the whole country in 2 days if he wants. And we can't do shit about it.

It won't be heaven the other way around.  If you are serious about this, you need to understand that the integration process will be very difficult.  Typically, it takes about three years to actually start to feel comfortable in the adopted country and along the way, she may well decide she can't do it anymore because she is too frustrated and homesick.  Underestimate the challenge at your peril.  Home is home no matter where it is.  Not that the USA is all that it's cracked up to be, but that is also off topic and I have no interest in pursuing it further! 

[msmob]

I'm with Bounder here..

When you asking someone to move from their country - you not not be asking them to break all links to their language culture.

I fitted Russian TV and I encouraged her to meet fellow Russian speakers.  I also encouraged my ex to be to constantly study and improve her everyday English and she ended up with a Tertiary level qualification  within 3 years - having spoken poor English.

Ironically, she - in the end  - disliked me knowing Russian )

 

[Trenchcoat]

I'm with Bounder here..

When you asking someone to move from their country - you not not be asking them to break all links to their language culture.

I fitted Russian TV and I encouraged her to meet fellow Russian speakers.  I also encouraged my ex to be to constantly study and improve her everyday English and she ended up with a Tertiary level qualification  within 3 years - having spoken poor English.

Ironically, she - in the end  - disliked me knowing Russian )

Is this why she is now your ex, she did all this you requested and ended up meeting someone else

[msmob]

Google Translate App on you're phone Wall

Jeez, TC ' - it's YOUR phone .. and you are giving advice on languages ? 

it now speaks out Russian or Ukrainian when you speak in English, just tap the mic icon inside the app. It also translates signs if you tap the camera icon in the app, its very impressive. So no need now to learn Russian or Ukrainian, ah the joys of modern technology

Whilst such tools are great aids - they can cause hilarious and often offensive howlers . Best used for simple phrases and TRYING to translate menus

When you can speak more Russian - try reverse translations back into English - it might be correct Russian - but it sounds AWFUL - this is an example of how we sound to our intended partners...  Rely on such aids at your peril in - esp. romantic situations

 
A great advancement and just at the right time for us.

Hands up who has tried Skype's new translate facility ?

I don't know if there is a UA lang option, yet but SC and I try it occasionally.  Great if you are together with a glass of wine ..I speak to her  in English and she replies in Russian - I understand enough Russian to laugh at what comes out

IF you speak in short sentences - that make you sound like you are a child... It works brilliantly to get a point across ...  For romance - other than entertainment - we are a LONG way off Star Trek and the universal translator


Trench ... I'm sorry ..admit I'm coming down hard on you, mate - But you really do say the daftest things, sometimes.  I want you to learn from your mistakes and prove me wrong .

Thinking such devices means replacing knowing the lingo ? HELP ....

[msmob]

Is this why she is now your ex, she did all this you requested and ended up meeting someone else

I can even see your point...

When I was having financial difficulties  - that were not caused by my being stupid ... it was a bank techie issue that took 1 months to resolve - and they admitted liability - after a long legal battle - by which time she had given up on me - she believed I was doing something dodgy, illegal - even the Police did.. 

She lost trust/ faith in me .. as did even family members - so incredible was the situation - hence why I held out so long re fair compo ..

BTW - she didn't have someone else to run to ... and she is single, now - her choice-  if you fancy your chances with an older - now English speaking - FSU lass ! 

IF we meet over the weekend - as we are now on friendly terms - should I put in a good word for you ? Just think.. no need to worry about learning Russian, paying for citizenship / residency and her kid is grown up and independent - no need for a gadget

[msmob]

The more Russian or Ukrainian you know . . . the longer your gal will take to learn English.

Poppycock, Sir

Go to any immigrant enclave in USA (or any other country) and notice how many, many, many of the people living there have never learned English (or the local language).

How can they survive ???  . . . . because the people around them speak their language!!!!

You learn to speak in Russian or Ukrainian and your wife will lapse into that language when living in your home in USA.

My wife did those intensive courses and I understood - as someone having lived in nations where English is not the local lingo - that we need some time for own brains to relax and enjoy a movie in English ...or a chat with folks in our mother tongues.

V had her Russian TV and RU speaking mates - still does - most of whom I introduced her to by stopping them on the streets  - if I heard them speak Russian. There aren't many  and they stood out.

My now wife took one year of Intensive English at University when she first arrived here . . . and spoke only English (obviously) with me at our home.

Wifey came with a son and I had no right to ask / dictate thy spoke in my language - so I improved my Russian - be able able to partake

If I had spoken Russian or Ukrainian with her in our home . . . she would have achieved ZERO of the above.

V also got a Degree - I encouraged her -  she wanted to give up and end up with a distinction AND a reward for the most improved / dedicated student  - it brought her English and confidence on by miles.   

When I'm nigh on six months of the year in Russia - I most speak Russian and watch RU tv ... but I would go INSANE not speaking English to a reasonable std and enjoy being the native speaker guest at English classes - if only to engage at a reasonable level

Deprivation does not mean your partner will not learn ... if she wants to