Need expert advice... moving to Ukraine?

[Flashback]

Hello everyone,

I 1st found as website back in 2005.  I lost my previous email and handle, so I have been using this one. While it has been a long time since I've been here, I still need some expert advice from the experts and that is why I'm posting this.

Background:
 I'm about to be 40 years old. I have no children I have never been married.  I've been to Ukraine 3 times. I been to Russia once. I been to Colombia 5 times.  And I've been to almost every country in western europe.

My life has recently changed. I have enough money that I could probly live in Ukraine and meet someone. In my experience the trips don't really work.  I'm considering taking a 6 month sabbatical and trying to meet women in either Odessa or Kiev.  I've been to Kiev,  Luhansk(2011, before the war), and Lviv. Lviv is great, but it's a college town, not too sure about the possibilities. Kiev is really big, and I wouldn't mind going back. I prefer the smaller cities and I've never been to Odessa.

I'm not ugly. I exercise often, and can dress well. So, no problems there.

In 10 years I can retire from my profession with a pension of 4k a month (USD), but I make 5k from investments every month right now. I feel pressure to find a woman and have children, because of my age. Yes I would like to have kids. My job is in remote areas, with no women, where I work a mandatory 10 hours a day, and have a two hour commute. I love my job, but I don't really need the money anymore. Also, my job kills almost all aspects of socially meeting women through my job.

Thoughts:
Previously it was difficult to find out on the forum about Ukrainian dating culture, without going through 1000s of posts. Also, I just wasn't adept at asking. Having learned some new information I would like to ask the following questions:

1. Is 5k enough to live on in Ukraine? Lol, I'm guessing the answer is probably yes, but I want to get the responses.

2. It's my understanding that Ukrainian women like men who are straight forward with their approach. For example: you see the woman, introduce yourself, cut to the chase , give her a compliment, and ask her out/ invite to a place at a time. Is this correct?

What woman doesn't like presents? But I've heard with Ukrainian women, small gifts are really cherished and have increased importance, e.g. flowers. Is this true?

Does anyone else have any thoughts about Ukrainian dating culture Do's and Don'ts?

The reason I ask is because American women like to see you in a routine where they can socially engage before you ask them out. I actually prefer the Ukrainian method, it's more direct and doesn't waste time.

3. Is moving to Odessa or Kiev a good idea? If my email contacts don't work out, then I'd like to approach women in public places and try to get some dates.

4. Has the general population's use of the English language increased?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I appreciate your response.

[JayH]

Define "moving' ?
eg  you can only stay 90 days in any 180 day period unless you can attain a different category of visa ( which is highly unlikely you re eligable for)
You were last in Ukraine in 2011? Correct? If so --much has changed and is changing.

The --read the forum -there is much that can help you here -- and yes - it takes some sorting out !

[krimster2]

hey flashback

I lived in Ukraine twice, once on a 6 month sabbatical while single
and then again for 3 yr while married with 2 children
normally, I would be delighted in supplying you with the details you seek
however, about an hour ago I had a kind of revelation that I should leave this board
so I'm going to follow that vision
my advice is don't listen to advice
and just go live your life, this is what I did
and I urge you to do the same
all the information you need to make this decision
you can find on your own
and it's better that way
better to earn your knowledge the hard way
than try and get it the easy way
that way you can be sure of its truth

words last only as long
as the time it takes to speak them them
silence lasts an eternity

[BillyB]

Welcome back Flashback, 5k a month is definitely more than enough to live well in Ukraine. Especially now with the dollar being strong as it is.

You say you want kids and you want to live in Ukraine? If you want to give your future kids the best chance to succeed, don't grow them in Ukraine or anywhere in the FSU. They're sure to encounter plenty of hell growing up and roadblocks that keep them from succeeding.

[msmob]

Welcome back Flashback, 5k a month is definitely more than enough to live well in Ukraine. Especially now with the dollar being strong as it is.

Hmm, the Dollar isn't THAT strong .. it's more how weak the UA currency is ..

You say you want kids and you want to live in Ukraine? If you want to give your future kids the best chance to succeed, don't grow them in Ukraine or anywhere in the FSU. They're sure to encounter plenty of hell growing up and roadblocks that keep them from succeeding.

WHY, BillyB ..?   I mean have you tried living in the FSU on a fair western income .. ? 

[Maxx2]

Welcome back Flashback. I was around RWD in 2005. I was a different person then. Still an American though.


Today I live in the Republic of Georgia. In a few months it will be 3 years. I live a very comfortable life. From November to May I rent luxury apartments on the Black Sea in the subtropical city of Batumi. Now I am in Tbilisi to get some things done. I have a thread in the Starting Out section called 'Starting out my new life in the Republic of Georgia'. It might interest you as it addresses the life and prices to live as an expat. Georgia FSU is very similar to Ukraine so you can use some of what I posted for your anticipated life in Ukraine.


I live on a quarter of the $5K you mentioned, actually less. I could make it on a thousand a month easily. Or even $800-900.


You are right, you should find an activity that gets you out there. That is what I am working on. I am taking up painting (art) again and cooking Chinese and Mexican food, American style. My hope is use these to get out into the public and meet people (women) in a natural way. I don't know about the direct approach you mentioned. I've never tried it.


What JayH said about the 90 day thing is true. You will have some problems there. In Georgia they make it easy for guys like us. No visa required, stay up to 360 days, do a border jump and back for another 360 days. What could be easier than that? Come busy tourist season to Batumi and you will meet lots of Ukrainian and Russian women. Georgian women and there are some real beauties there, are in my option much more family orientated. But they are harder to get to know. Keeping their V-card till marriage is expected. Children and having family are major priorities for them. 


The other thing to consider about Batumi is its closeness to Ukraine. There are Kiev flights out of and into the Batumi airport everyday. 2 1/2 hour flights to and from Kiev for $140. You could do the 90 day thing easily using Georgia as your forward base. Think it over and please read my thread. Again welcome back.

[rwd123]

1. Is 5k enough to live on in Ukraine? Lol, I'm guessing the answer is probably yes, but I want to get the responses.

More than enough, but obviously comes down to your lifestyle choices. It's possible to get short-term rentals in the center of Kyiv for 800-1000UAH/day.

2. It's my understanding that Ukrainian women like men who are straight forward with their approach. For example: you see the woman, introduce yourself, cut to the chase , give her a compliment, and ask her out/ invite to a place at a time. Is this correct?

It depends how you meet. Cities like Kyiv and Odessa (and others) are infested with sex tourists, so many women will NOT want to talk with you. For example, I met a woman in Kyiv who when we first met said she didn't speak English. A few hours later, after I won her trust, she confessed she is fluent and lied because she doesn't like talking with foreigners (because of this reason). Women will often say they speak English "so so" but actually speak quite well simply because they don't want to talk with foreigners. The other thing to watch out for is women taking advantage of you. Some will be opportunistic and not serious about a relationship.

What woman doesn't like presents? But I've heard with Ukrainian women, small gifts are really cherished and have increased importance, e.g. flowers. Is this true?

Yes to flowers but you don't need them on a first date. But I'd always suggest a small gift for a first date.

Does anyone else have any thoughts about Ukrainian dating culture Do's and Don'ts?

You pay for everything without "flashing your wallet". Offer to pay for a taxi for her to get home. Be chivalrous (old fashioned gentleman). Send her a message after she gets home from a date.

Be assertive - for example, I once met a girl for a second date. I asked her where she wanted to go for dinner, she said a general area but flipped and flopped. I said I'll call back in 10 minutes; quickly looked up a restaurant on Trip Advisor, made a reservation and called her back. If you're the average Westerner you'll be nowhere as assertive as local guys. Take the lead, be a man.

Generally it's up to the guys to initiate communications post-date, don't wait for her to get back to you because she may not even if she likes you. Just don't come across as needy or desperate.

Dress nicely - well fitted clothes, and be sure to wear nice shoes.

3. Is moving to Odessa or Kiev a good idea? If my email contacts don't work out, then I'd like to approach women in public places and try to get some dates.

I'm not going to rain on your parade, but sex tourism has ruined those cities and will make public introductions harder. Not saying don't do it, but it may not be fruitful. If you base yourself in Kyiv then you can always meet women in other cities as it is easy to get to other cities in Ukraine (planes, trains, BlaBlaCar, etc.). It's also a short flight to Belarus and Moldova (and the Baltics, Poland, Georgia, etc.) and assume you'll be able to travel visa free. Getting to Russia is a bit more problematic given no direct flights and organising a visa. There's also the option of dating agencies and online dating, but you may find dating apps mostly a waste of time. The girls looking for $$$ will be quite transparent so easily avoided.

Potentially one advantage of basing yourself in Ukraine for an extended period is for women in Donbass region to visit you (you won't be able to go there). A friend of mine has a strong opinion that women in the Donbass are the most beautiful of all FSUW.

4. Has the general population's use of the English language increased?

I didn't notice much difference from a decade ago but that's drawing on a small sample size. I would suggest you sign up for a (Russian) language course at a university. They're not expensive, you'll benefit from language development, and keep you from getting bored. It will also help you shake the impression you're just a sex tourist, and allow you to stay longer if you get a 12 month study visa, etc. Not hard to get just takes some effort.

[Trenchcoat]

Hi Flashback, you're in an enviable position. If it were me I would quit work and not worry about the pension. If you go another few more years you may feel you might as well do the rest to get it. By then you'll be 50 and will have lost out on the age front somewhat. If you're getting 5k a month in you might as well live life with it instead off working and having no life, that would be pointless.

I think you're best bet is to go out there and rent short term to start with, move around until you find the person you want to be with. If you use thE pay monthly or free Internet dating sites you'll be out there to meet them one after another.

Your in the position to offer a FSW a fantastic lifestyle. Of course you don't want the insincere women though. Most FSW face a future of poverty in their old age on the meagre pensions they have out there. So with your sort of income they should be knocking the door down to be with you. I doubt you'll be short of options out there.

[lyndontom]

Hi Flashback, you're in an enviable position. If it were me I would quit work and not worry about the pension. If you go another few more years you may feel you might as well do the rest to get it. By then you'll be 50 and will have lost out on the age front somewhat. If you're getting 5k a month in you might as well live life with it instead off working and having no life, that would be pointless.

Typical, stupidly short-sighted advice from our resident Trench!


"If it were me" is exactly why he should do the opposite.

[ML]

One word to all (well say 5).


Medical coverage at age 65.


Medicare will not cover treatment outside USA.
Medicare and the mandatory drug coverage price to you goes up for every month you do not enroll after age 65.  i.e. there is a penalty.

We ALL will want the medicare coverage at some point; don't kid yourself.

There is no long term future in a USA citizen living outside the USA.

[Trenchcoat]

That's the good thing with being a UK citizen and the NHS - it's always there, sure I would have to fly back for any treatment but I would not have to pay anything so long as I got the treatment back in the UK in an NHS hospital.

Of course me like any other guy, US included would be best served by taking out some long term travel health insurance. It would no doubt be advisable as if something did crop up that I couldn't go back for that I needed urgent surgery then it would no doubt pay dividends. I get the impression it would be small change to Flashback though, lol.

[msmob]

That's the good thing with being a UK citizen and the NHS - it's always there, sure I would have to fly back for any treatment but I would not have to pay anything so long as I got the treatment back in the UK in an NHS hospital.

You think ? ..

Someone needs to read up on being an expat ( esp. outside the EU ) and your rights to access the NHS....

[Maxx2]

There are about 6 million Americans living outside the US. Many of them, and I know these people, never want return to the US. The AMA, FDA and Big Agra are killing Americans by the millions. GMO foods, statin drugs, doctors pushing drugs on people that don't need them because of kickbacks from Big Pharma. Then when you get really old the family packs you off to a nursing home and all your Social Security gets taken along with your paid for house. But hey, that is a millions years from now.


Why do so many people want to come to America then? Because they are ignorant. They bust their butt to join up to a tax system that sees them as tax slaves. United States and one tin pot dictatorship on the Red Sea are the only two countries that tax its citizens on a worldwide bases. Louse Learner from the IRS, do you remember her? She pissed all over Congress and nothing happened to her.

[DaveNY]

Thoughts:
Previously it was difficult to find out on the forum about Ukrainian dating culture, without going through 1000s of posts. Also, I just wasn't adept at asking. Having learned some new information I would like to ask the following questions:

1. Is 5k enough to live on in Ukraine? Lol, I'm guessing the answer is probably yes, but I want to get the responses.

$5K is enough to live on for maybe 3 or 4 months at most, probably less if you're not counting the cost of flights to and from Ukraine. The simple fact is you cannot live as cheaply as a local. You don't have the knowledge to do it. Whatever locals pay for food and housing you'll pay more. You'll need more money than a local to date and Ukrainian women will probably expect you to spend more.

3. Is moving to Odessa or Kiev a good idea? If my email contacts don't work out, then I'd like to approach women in public places and try to get some dates.

It's been repeated many times in the press in Russia and Ukraine that foreign men visiting Russia and Ukraine are sex tourists and many men are. Do you speak at least conversational Russian or Ukrainian? If not approaching women in public places to get a date isn't going to work.

4. Has the general population's use of the English language increased?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I appreciate your response.

I seriously doubt you are going to randomly meet many women in Ukraine who will be knowledgeable enough in English to carry on a conversation with and will want to carry on a conversation.

If you really want to spend time in Ukraine get a job there. Find a job as an English teacher, for example. This will help defer costs and give you a reason to be in Ukraine. Women are less likely to think of you as a sex tourist. The job will also give you a link to the expat community in the area and a possible introduction to local women.

When I taught English in Moscow there were many opportunities for me to meet locals and many of the ELTs, especially the men, used these opportunities to date locals.

[Flashback]

Response to all in order posted. Thank you all for reading and taking the time necessary to write your responses.

JayH: I was last in Lviv in 2016. You're correct, I need a Visa for more than 90 days.

Krimster- I totally understand where you're coming from. I was pretty sensitive before, and felt I was treated badly by other forum members. This is why I'm hesitant every time to come here. If you want to send me a PM about your experiences that would be cool. But I agree, best way is to go and live your life.

BillyB-  I would only raise my kids in Ukraine if my wife demanded it. But I agree with your statement and it gave me pause to think about from that perspective.

Msmob- I pay attention to currencies too. So I know where you're coming from. If the Dixie ever takes a serious 20% devaluation dive, then I'll probably be in trouble over there.

Maxx2- I read your post about Georgia. I'm sure it's a great place. Have you or anyone else been to Romania? Thoughts?

What your definition of a small gift?

Great advice. Yes, the Donbass girls are very hot. But when I was in Lugansk, it was rip off central. I don't want to deal with that area again. The rest of Ukraine is much better!

I don't have too many comments about your second post. It's a lot to discuss and I would prefer to stay on this topic.

Trenchcoat- I agree with everything you said in your post. I know you're right. They may be knocking down my door, but I can't let them know about my income. I obviously don't want someone who wants me for that.
So you think Kiev is a better bet instead of Odessa?

Right now it wouldn't be small change. In the future I'll be making 4x more, then it will be small change.

ML- Sometime between 2023-2028 2/3s of the US discretionary spending will go to Medicare/Medicaid and SS. The last 1/3 to interest payments. I'm not counting on Medicare for myself. I think we'll have a major financial collapse before then. Not going to discuss further because this is a big topic. I'm planning on coming back to the USA for family reasons.

DaveNY- It's a continuous 5k per month. But I will definitely heed your warning. I like the idea of getting the job there too. Any websites to suggest? I have one already, workaway.com

No I don't speak Ukrainian nor Russian. I can learn though, I already speak Spanish fluently.

More questions for everyone/ anyone to answer:
1. Does the Odessa new terminal have wifi for a uber ride?

2. Nice clothing in Odessa/Kiev cost more than in the states? Yes, I know Levis do, but not sure about anything else.

3. I've heard to get internet into your apartment/flat isn't that difficult. True? False? Ukrtelecom is... good? Bad?

Thanks again!

[JayH]

Free WiFi is everywhere ( well nearly!) in Ukraine.
Hotels,apartments,restaurants,cafe,shopping centres etc etc  public places--even parks have free wifi access.
Decent phone set up the right way will pick it up automatically.
I have local sim -- with data allowance -- cost not much ( say$10-$12 per month) that allows calls,sms,inet access . Rarely use that amount-- but easy to top up.
Secondly--- for computer -- I also  have a dongle (USB Modem) that gives me internet access anywhere that phone signal is available -- cost is negligible compared to convenience --it is also more secure.
See LIFECELL
http://www.lifecell.ua/en/

Clothing can be cheap as in good value -- depends on where you do your shopping / Kyiv,Odesa  ( & more) have upmarket stores with prices in the crazy ridiculous category -- and all over Ukraine the street markets can be value.
There are stores with nice range,quality etc at fair prices .

Most apartments available to rent will have WiFi -that applies all over Ukraine.


A point that has come up across a few threads recently  -- On Phones

You do not need Apple,Samsung more expensive phones.
Now-- there are phones readily available that will do far more that 95% need to do-- at excellent prices eg $100 to $200 will get a great phone . For most -- the difference to a top of the range phone will not be noticed.
Phones are a fast moving stage -- and the last 2 years much has happened   .

Krimster- I totally understand where you're coming from. I was pretty sensitive before, and felt I was treated badly by other forum members. This is why I'm hesitant every time to come here

If you  are thinking that TC has good advice for you --you are likely to have your judgement questioned and get treated badly again !!

Telling the forum more about yourself  can help you help yourself.

[Jumper]

Have you or anyone else been to Romania? Thoughts?

I've been there for work, not dating.
But I was younger then and  single,
While there is a club scene and plenty of pretty girls,even party girls,   just observing can say it's a pretty closed* dating scene as far as serious dating leading to marriage you seem to be looking towards.
 Most that would be serious, about marraige,would only date fellow romanians/within their culture.A million reasons why,  but mostly society /family pressure to do so.
  It is really not much  like ukraine/Russia/Czech rep/ luthiana/Latvia etc.etc.
  I'm not saying you cant date there but my guess is it is much like some other places with a bit of a closed door to outside marriage, like Georgia as example.


As far as living in Ukraine.
Ive lived in many countries, but have zero interest in living in ukraine .
It would be interesting to me short term,  but not long term at all.
Your income is fine for living there,obviously depending on your lifestyle choices.
   
Good luck whatever you decide.

[Maxx2]

Maxx2- I read your post about Georgia. I'm sure it's a great place. Have you or anyone else been to Romania? Thoughts?

I've heard it is a beautiful country and it has the low cost of living that Georgia and Ukraine have. I also heard they won't let you in unless you can prove you have a medical insurance plan. But this might not be true. I might have heard it about Bulgaria. The 90/180 day rule applies there. I've known other American/Western expats primarily trying to live in Ecuador. The limited residency problem is a major headache for them. It spoils the fun and comes at the worst time, trying to adapt to a new environment, dealing with culture shock and so on. Who needs to hassle with a bureaucracy at times like that? 

[msmob]

Hi Maxx

Bulgaria, Romania, etc, have no limit for EU citizens on staying / working - as long as you register within 3 months - if intending to BE resident ...

Non-EU citizens cannot legally work  - nothing to stop those able to work from home and invoicing / receiving monies from a third nation - but the 90/180 rule applies - unless you marry an EU citizen

[civi68]

Flashback, I am considering the same thing at the end of the year and am in a similar situation. From what I have discovered, you will need to teach English as a way of being able to stay there for a year. You will need to take a 4 week CELTA course for that. They have them in Kiev.

[krimster2]

allright, I will make an exception to my departure, just for YOU
but first to clarify, I didn’t leave because of “ill treatment”
but weariness of dealing with ignorance and stupidity

so on to your problem...

first major issue is money
I have major experience in traveling with large amounts of cash
would not advise anyone without this experience bringing in more than $9,999 in cash to Ukraine
put this in a concealed wallet under your shirt around your mid-section (and a couple of hundred in your pocket)
it shows up well on x-ray as cash, and this is where security expects you to keep your money
so you’re not going to be searched/frisked
also don’t declare this amount in Ukraine, it might lead to it being “counted"
I believe on Ukraine forms you have to declare over a threshold, say you have under this
bring 2 credit/debit cards from different accounts in case one gets compromised
very common in Ukraine to have employees at banks, restaurants stealing card information which will lead to your bank putting a hold on it, so always have a backup
also sometimes there's disruptions with ATM machines for this or that reason

for long term, you’ll need to get a Ukrainian bank account and wire the money from your USA account to your Ukrainian account
in order to get a Ukrainian bank account, you need to get a Ukrainian tax ID

and this is where you start to run into difficulty
I have found it expedient to have what I call a “facilitator” someone to act as an interface between myself and the Ukrainian world, getting a tax ID is one of the things I’d use the facilitator for, a second use would be renting an apartment, otherwise you pay the “foreigner tax”
so consider hiring a bi-lingual facilitator

if long term is not all that long term, then an alternative to this is use western union to send money to yourself, but compare rates vrs wiring to your account
if you're sending a major amount, better to wire the money, but you have to balance against cost of a facilitator

you also need to think a LOT about security in your apartment, hiding your money, and other valuables, someone besides you will have a key to your apartment, I used to do the hidden thread trick on the door to see if someone had been in my apartment, like the landlord’s drug addict son...

when negotiating for an apartment, only look for furnished apartment utilities included (paying utilities in Ukraine is generally a stand-in-line process and tedious)

in each location you mention, there are local “gazettas” that will have voluminous rental listings, turn your facilitator lose on this, not sure what you’d pay, but I think maybe $500 month would get you a good place

food, some things are much cheaper, like locally grown produce, some only slightly cheaper than usa prices, with rent+food I’d say your monthly cost to be something like $1,200 month maximum, but you could go much cheaper if you wanted

After you’ve been in Ukraine for awhile, I think it will be VERY unlikely you will want to live there.  Don’t know what you’ll do about the visa issue, back “in the day” I had a 5 year multi-entry “Private Visa”, every 6 months I had to leave Ukraine and return, which I would’ve done anyway.  I don’t think this kind of Visa even exists anymore, you’ll have to deal with that issue on your own!!!

as far as approaching the devs
here was my experience back in my sabbatical
I would approach women, wherever I encountered them, “top-shelf” women “9s“, “10s”, even above.  I had a 50% success rate of getting them to join me at a nearby cafe, and from there I moved “up the ladder” to dinner, and then to my apartment
It was easy!

I was in Russia last month, even a dadooshka like me had "flow" there, could've easily picked up women, but I wasn't there for that

which reminds me...
a possibility that next spring/summer Russia is going to do what they did in Crimea to most of the rest of Ukraine
not sure what would become of you in such a situation
you should think about it...

you could do alright in Kyiv or Odessa,
but I hope JayH doesn't get mad at me for divulging his "secret hunting ground"
check out a city called "Dnipro"
cheaper place to live, no competition, lots of devs

learn Russian!!! you don't have to be fluent
but it's not hard to learn say 100 words and some simple phrases

Appearance!

I cannot overstate the importance of this!
You need to distinguish yourself, and show that you are not just “the average bear”
middle aged sex tourists will wear blue jeans and some average looking shirt
russian men are called "men in black" for a reason
you need to be different, devs will IMMEDIATELY notice this
getting noticed is the first step
have casual clothes, but also have “hunting” clothes like this

http://brehinson.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/gq-guy1.png

http://cdn01.cdn.justjaredjr.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/zac-gq/zac-efron-gq-magazine-may-2009-04.jpg

hope this info helps
seriously, if you do things properly, it's IMPOSSIBLE to fail!

[Boethius]

I will be in Ukraine next week, and Russia, for about 8 weeks.  I'll give you my impressions when I'm back.  Personally, I think you would have more success if you made contact with a number of women from the US, went to visit, and then took time off to develop a relationship once you've culled down a list.

[Trenchcoat]

Well I don't blame you Flashback for being cautious of the Forum vibe. Seems to me with all forums there is a lot of Forum bitching game play that goes on. Once you've seen it a fair bit it's s case of 'oh that carry on again'. However, there is a lot of good info that Forum members have I think here, bitches or not.

I would be cautious of opening yourself up on here to much as well Flashback it can bring on a lot of character assassination from some members. I brush it off but some people take stuff more personal than me.

Some good points brought up above. Krimster suggestion of a facilitator is a good idea. Someone who seems decent, possibly a terp if they seem straight up enough. Trust no one though. Ukraine is generally a nice enough place day to day in decent areas but you'll want to take as many safeguards as you can in every given situation.

I personally wouldn't take more than £/$ 2-300 into Ukraine. You'll pay a little more to take ghrivnas out of the machine than at the kiosk but your a walking target with thousands of dollars/pounds on you. It would be a big liability. If your all card based then there is no money lying around for anyone to take. If they frisk your flat once and find some money no doubt word will get around. Just take out the cash as you need it or pay with card in reputable places. I have several cards and when out there I don't keep them all in my wad, I put one in my suitcase, one in my bag, etc. So if my wad goes missing I'm not out of options. If you are out there by yourself you have to take more precautions. Getting to know decent people but not relying on them is probably handy also.

I got myself a Moto C phone their about $100 and will make you less of a target, dual sim.

I think with clothes, it's not an easy one, I've looked into it recently. A lot of people put up stuff with guys wearing suits, but let's face it you're going to look pretty weird turning up in a suit to everything. I think just buy some decent casual clothes, smart looking but not suit like. No baggy or scruffy stuff or too cheap stuff. Suits are great for formal dates and first meets but I don't think it's thd answer to wear them all the time.

I think Krimster suggesting a city other than Kiev & Odessa is a good one - they are full of dating agency girls or for Kiev probably career girls. Lviv is nice but very touristy almost fake theme park touristy. It has a lot of nice women but the tourist trap vibe may get to you after a while. I think you would be best travelling around first to avoid basing yourself somewhere you may quickly come to hate.

I don't think US girls are a great idea as they like UK  girls are probably the reason your looking abroad in the first place like me - to avoid girls that you don't get on with.

[krimster2]

good advice for short term Trench
depending on an ATM for long term would be expensive, in terms of ATM fees
and ATMs don't have perfect reliability at all times and daily limits and other limitations
and present their own security risks as well

would not advocate carrying that much in cash either
you need a hiding place
lots of ideas on the interweb on how to hide in plain sight in your apartment

always have backups
and backups on your backups

you and I have wildly different perceptions on how much is enough
I'm a very experienced traveler in Ukraine
yet with the amount of money you propose
I would feel inadequate and insecure
just for surviving there
let alone surviving AND hunting
not to say it can't be done the way you propose
just that it would heavily "cramp my style"
and I would not feel comfortable on such a small budget
and it would not give me the flexibility I'd need
especially for being there long term
when you have unplanned for expenses

[Flashback]

Response to all, same as before. Thanks again for introduction and conversation.

JayH- I'm a gamer. I really enjoy multiplayer. If I'm going for awhile, and I'm going to rent a place, I would like to have an ethernet connection, and bring my own computer.

How do men dress when they go out? Blazer? Collar shirt? Any specific style?

Jumper-  Thanks for the info about Romania. Too bad, I like the black hair and light skin.

Maxx- good info, thank you.

Msmob- thank you for the post.

Civi68- Teaching is my last resort to staying. I'm hoping maybe a border hop can do the trick. 

To everyone: Does anyone know if that's possible? Maxx said it can be done in Georgia, but what about Ukraine's specific rules?

Why would you go in December? In fact question for everyone here! besides freezing to death, and the women possibly being less interested in meeting, what would be the reason to NOT go in the winter? Unless the chance of meeting someone is completely gone, then maybe I shouldn't wait until March?

If you go Civi, where are you going? Ideas?

Krimster- Thanks for the response. So why not just take cash out of the ATM? Why would I want to bring that much cash in person? On all my previous trips, credit card, and atm worked just fine. I did almost get ripped off for 2k in furniture in Italy one time, but my credit card company spotted that right away.

The facilitator is a good idea, but that's going to take trust and finding the right person.

So let me get this straight: cafe, dinner, then apartment. Is apartment and dinner on the same date? How long do Ukrainians usually go before calling each other boyfriend/ girlfriend? I don't want them thinking I'm the the just for sex, but if it happens, it happens.

Yes, I've been wanting to go to Dnipo, for awhile. But there just aren't that many online from there.

I'll definitely check out those links.

To everyone: my understanding is that it's best to meet women after work or on their day off... so during the day... my pain is to exercise, eat, then try to meet women in public. Thoughts?

To everyone: it would be awesome if you guys could list your favorite cafes. This might be a whole different topic. My favorite is in Kharkiv, in Hotel 19, the Abajour.  Fresh made croissants! 

Trenchcoat- Good points. I would like to travel around and meet as many as I can, but I also don't want to waste my time or pass up on any that i might have a slight connection with just to wonder off down the road. Not to mention, they might not think I'm serious.

Thanks again for everyone's advice and time. Looking forward to more responses 😊

[BillyB]

I'm a gamer. I really enjoy multiplayer

A few FSU women told me they are looking for a man, not a boy. Playing too many video games may be hazardous to your love life. Just something to think about.

[krimster2]

“Krimster- Thanks for the response. So why not just take cash out of the ATM? Why would I want to bring that much cash in person? On all my previous trips, credit card, and atm worked just fine.”

Rules for Ukraine
#1, just because something works most of the time, doesn’t mean it works all of the time
#2, money in your hand and your back turned...the hairs would stand on the back of my head
#3, the more you use your card, the more likely it is to be misused
#4, freedom of travel, the wind may blow you to some place without an ATM
#5, fees, I spent a LOT of money, ATM/FOREX fees on that would be a substantial amount
#6 cash limits, sometimes I needed more, sometimes much more

“So let me get this straight: cafe, dinner, then apartment. Is apartment and dinner on the same date?”

sometimes yes,
sometimes on next date
I had a 3 date rule, if there was no action by the third date, then there was not going to be any action, so time to move on... tomorrow is a new day with a new opportunity...



“How long do Ukrainians usually go before calling each other boyfriend/ girlfriend? I don't want them thinking I'm the the just for sex, but if it happens, it happens.”

no, YOU don’t want to be thinking about sex
you want THEM to be thinking about sex
all the women there have a “fantasy”
you have to make them think YOU are the fantasy
then just respond to them when they respond

it’s backwards from America
sex and then friend zone in Ukraine and not the other way round

“To everyone: my understanding is that it's best to meet women after work or on their day off...”

absolute best time, is spring right after cold winter
the public mood is transformed by the weather
you can meet someone anytime, anywhere, and after a cup of coffee, agree to meet later at anytime and anywhere, it does help to know some good spots for dinner, entertainment, etc.
I don’t believe in moderation, so if it was a woman I was interested in, then after handful of initial local dates, I would take her somewhere outside of whatever city we were in, my favorite, which I would no longer recommend was Istanbul, it would be good to travel together, more intimate than her being in her home turf, going back to her apartment after each visit
if she’s “in to you” then she will go along with whatever you suggest, as long as it can work with her schedule, all the women I met were willing to change their schedules to be with me, if not, I would’ve moved on...

don't go after ONE fish
go after ALL the fish

if you don't catch one
on you first or even second cast
then try again until you do
but don't keep trying over and over
on the same fish
that's American thinking
and you're in Ukraine now
schools of fish everywhere

[rwd123]

Practical advice to get started:

1. Buy USD (or Euros) < 10,000 and don't declare it.
2. Get Uber and local accounts like Yandex Taxi set up on your phone. Gett was recommended to me in Russia.
3. Buy a local SIM at the airport, best to have dual SIM slot phone.
4. Buy UAH (or local currency) at the airport, I'd suggest minimum 500-1000 USD worth.
5. Bring your ATM/credit cards but don't rely on them.
6. Learn at least a little Russian. It goes a long way.

Krimster - times have changed. A Westerner in his 40s hitting on girls in the street in Kyiv and Odessa screams of sex tourist. Most girls will not be interested even in conversation. Ukraine is not what it used to be, it has really turned for the worst in the last 5-10 years (if not longer).

How do men dress when they go out? Blazer? Collar shirt? Any specific style?

Most locals wear t-shirts and jeans so it's not hard to look good. Get well fitted clothes, good shoes, winter jacket does not need to be fancy.

Why would you go in December? In fact question for everyone here! besides freezing to death, and the women possibly being less interested in meeting, what would be the reason to NOT go in the winter? Unless the chance of meeting someone is completely gone, then maybe I shouldn't wait until March?

Winter is good. Girls in the summer are on holiday or spend time outside; in winter it's too cold so venues are far more crowded - much better time for night life. But again - many girls are not interested in foreigners because of the prevalence of sex tourists or will fleece you for free drinks.

For someone who has traveled to Ukraine previously you're asking some pretty basic questions (almost naive). I would have thought you would have known this type of info without having to ask for it.

[civi68]

I went in January and encountered no problems. People are out walking daily no matter what. I didn't have any problems with the cold except in Moscow in January at -15 below. I recommend you go to Sierra Trading post, sign up for their email coupons, and buy some good winter clothes, particularly some of the good winter jackets (not the ski jackets everyone seems to wear anymore). Buy an extra goose down packable jacket for the really cold days. They are the warmest but rip easily. Wear a sherpa lined fleece jacket, long underwear, insulated hiking boots, and winter jacket and you should be good to go.
   As to where I am going, I haven't decided yet. You should have luck in any city. I visited Kherson, Odessa, and Dnepropetrovsk. It is just my preference but I usually avoid Kiev and Odessa due to too many tourists and the women acting in response to that. I don't want to be around a lot of Americans/Europeans there for the same reason as me. Most cities have a 100,000+ people so that is enough for anyone.
    I also can't emphasize enough how learning some of the language helped me to communicate and get through the language barrier. I recommend The New Penguin Russian course and Essential Russian Grammar books. Spend an hour a day on one chapter a week.

[krimster2]

ah yes, sex tourists, they’ve ruined it for everyone, when I lived there I avoided them like they were an infections disease, absolute embarrassment

How to overcome this?
Be interesting, I happen to be a fairly decent illustrator, I used to sit in a crowded public space in Kyiv and sketch people walking by, sometimes I had to leave because I was getting too much of a crowd, but I did meet some lovely women this way
also, your “demeanor” is as important as your wardrobe, a smile is unusual in Ukraine, it makes you open, you want to signal it’s ok to come and talk to you

I used to hunt in Universities, because this was the age group I was interested in, there are NO sex tourists here, and EASY to strike up conversations, I always had a slightly befuddled expression on my face, lost little lamb, who needed help, pretty girls were ALWAYS happy to help

then of course villages, but I don’t want to get BO upset, village hunting is all about income disparity and opportunity, you use “shock and awe” wealth to bowl them over, these girls would become whatever you wanted them to be, as long as you “fed” their desire for “la dolce vita”

once I had these initial successes, then I had an intuitive sense of which women would be interested in me, and who would not, maybe it was just eye contact or body language, I don’t know, but after awhile, I could be walking on the street, and just know which ones I could approach.  Now, I didn’t just walk up to a woman, and just bluntly ask about sex, although amazingly I saw a Ukrainian guy actually do this, maybe 20 times, and watched with amusement his rejection each time, until on the 21st time, a nice attractive woman stopped and listened to him, and they left together, I was stunned for sure!!!

no I didn’t use his technique, instead I had my “INTRODUCTORY STORY”, but a good magician doesn’t reveal his tricks

yes, even though things are different now, they’re also still the same
a month ago, I was in Russia, talked to LOTS of pretty girls, if I was single I would not have been alone there after the first few days, and I’m nearly a dadooshka...

[Nightwish]

Practical advice to get started:

1. Buy USD (or Euros) < 10,000 and don't declare it.
2. Get Uber and local accounts like Yandex Taxi set up on your phone. Gett was recommended to me in Russia.
3. Buy a local SIM at the airport, best to have dual SIM slot phone.
4. Buy UAH (or local currency) at the airport, I'd suggest minimum 500-1000 USD worth.
5. Bring your ATM/credit cards but don't rely on them.
6. Learn at least a little Russian. It goes a long way.

Krimster - times have changed. A Westerner in his 40s hitting on girls in the street in Kyiv and Odessa screams of sex tourist. Most girls will not be interested even in conversation. Ukraine is not what it used to be, it has really turned for the worst in the last 5-10 years (if not longer).

How do men dress when they go out? Blazer? Collar shirt? Any specific style?

Most locals wear t-shirts and jeans so it's not hard to look good. Get well fitted clothes, good shoes, winter jacket does not need to be fancy.

Why would you go in December? In fact question for everyone here! besides freezing to death, and the women possibly being less interested in meeting, what would be the reason to NOT go in the winter? Unless the chance of meeting someone is completely gone, then maybe I shouldn't wait until March?

Winter is good. Girls in the summer are on holiday or spend time outside; in winter it's too cold so venues are far more crowded - much better time for night life. But again - many girls are not interested in foreigners because of the prevalence of sex tourists or will fleece you for free drinks.

For someone who has traveled to Ukraine previously you're asking some pretty basic questions (almost naive). I would have thought you would have known this type of info without having to ask for it.

I do wish to object to this statement, I was exactly this, a westerner in my 40:s talking to women on the "street". and this is only 2-5 years back now.
Of course my selection of women was a little different, about my own age , preferably with a child (since I didn't want to have any more of my own)

BUT!
It has a lot to do with how you approach them, how you are as a person, how you start the conversation and also where you choose to approach them.

On the street with someone you just meet walking past you, forget it - but in parks, on/around different monuments or other sights, sitting alone in a café or restaurant (very unusual you find one sitting alone there though)
My "hit" rate.. about 50/50 I would say. and with that I mean women that would look and act interested in further conversation after the first interaction.

I used my *charming* unsure about this city and what to do here routine, worked quite well, and - what I discovered first hand -  DON'T flirt openly. Showing that you appreciate their appearance and beauty is one thing, out right flirting - you will probably be doomed and judged as sex-tourist right away.
If you studied it, forget everything you ever read about PUA approach, it does not work there. Ask Trench, he knows no other way and fails miserable every time.

Winter makes meeting someone by chance outside of course a lot slimmer, but not impossible, you just need to find the natural venues they visit.


off topic:
I just came home from a weekend in Odessa, weather was amazing.
When I arrived on Wednesday there was one of these legendary tours arriving about the same time, starting to form a large group in the arrival hall, I apparently had some of them on my plane from Kiev.
I had booked a nice hotel close to Arcadia since it was my girls bday, and we spent most of our time walking around or near Arcadia for 2 days, I am still so amazed by all the foreign guys in their 50's out walking with his "nieces" (or daughters) in their 20 , real bombshells, really sexy and beautiful young women.   
Odd thing, the girls are always in pairs and one of them always seem to lack English knowledge 

How can they still fall for this? It's grown men, spending a "small fortune" and thinking they will meet pretty young girls and that they will be interested in a overweight, balding, sweaty (it was quite hot there) old dude. It's 2018! Use Google for freaks sake and read up on things.
Many many men are quite delusional 

[rwd123]

a month ago, I was in Russia, talked to LOTS of pretty girls, if I was single I would not have been alone there after the first few days, and I’m nearly a dadooshka...

Russia is different. For random meetings Kiev/Odessa are not the best options in the FSU. I say this based on two visits to each country this year. I simply like conversation with locals (men and women) and had contrasting experiences. But everyone will have unique experiences, I'm just sharing mine in case guys have some fantasy of how attractive Ukrainian girls will be swooned on street corners.

Krimster - you speak Russian. I don't believe the OP does. Speaking Russian is a game changer and opens many more doors.

Nightwish - if you're chasing MILFs your age then it's a different ballgame to talking up 20-something stunners. Totally different dynamics.

[krimster2]

"Krimster - you speak Russian. I don't believe the OP does. Speaking Russian is a game changer and opens many more doors."

YES!!! you HAVE to speak some!!!
any amount of time you spend on this will pay you big dividends!!
so the more, the better, lots of resources out there
my family and I still speak Russian as a second language, even 10 yr after we left Ukrainia
if I tell one of my daughters "tvoya spalnya gryaznaya" it carries about 10 times more weight than if I say her "room is messy" in English
not sure why, probably has to do with mama being the family authoritarian figure, and speaking Russian evokes her image
you DO NOT want a Russian mama being cross with you
papa really doesn't care about your room...
only wants to avoid conflicts between children and mama

[Nightwish]

Russia is different. For random meetings Kiev/Odessa are not the best options in the FSU. I say this based on two visits to each country this year. I simply like conversation with locals (men and women) and had contrasting experiences. But everyone will have unique experiences, I'm just sharing mine in case guys have some fantasy of how attractive Ukrainian girls will be swooned on street corners.

Krimster - you speak Russian. I don't believe the OP does. Speaking Russian is a game changer and opens many more doors.

Nightwish - if you're chasing MILFs your age then it's a different ballgame to talking up 20-something stunners. Totally different dynamics.

Absolutely right, but I was  - as most men - new and naive when I started this and chased after the 20:s something stunners, but always with the same approach to this and with a quite successful history.
That I changed my targets had more to do with me realizing I could/would not give the younger women what they wanted as in a child of her own one day.

I still maintain the view that with an honest and open approach, some people skills, being genuine interested in the culture, the country, the people (and the woman) - it's not even hard to make serious progress.
My approach was from the start - I treat it as mainly a vacation, with the bonus of meeting interesting and serious (gorgeous) women. One did not exclude the other.

[msmob]

I still maintain the view that with an honest and open approach, some people skills, being genuine interested in the culture, the country, the people (and the woman) - it's not even hard to make serious progress.

gold

[krimster2]

"I still maintain the view that with an honest and open approach, some people skills, being genuine interested in the culture, the country, the people (and the woman) - it's not even hard to make serious progress."

yes, and not just with the devs
the two MOST PROFOUND conversations I've had in my ENTIRE LIFE
were in Russian with locals
one was a veteran of Stalingrad, a little old man I approached from behind on Victory Day as we were both scaling a steep hill
he was struggling so I offered him my arm
from behind i didn't see the chest full of medals
he saw I was a foreigner
he was tired, so we sat together on a bench
two veterans telling each other their stories
still holding each other's arms
his stories were MUCH better than mine
I don't mind admitting to tears later

second profound meeting
was a retired elementary pensioner
a woman in her early 70's
I told her my grandmother was born in Ukraine
near Nezhin, up North
and that I had hoped that I was going to be part
of a returning diaspora to help build a new Ukraine
but instead I found life so hard there, that instead of me
affecting some change in Ukraine
it went the other way round
and Ukraine changed me instead
and I became just like everyone else
just trying to survive
she held my hand when I told her this
and told me to have faith in something
and no matter how bad things got
to always hold on to this faith
it had a profound effect on me