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Author Topic: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?  (Read 450992 times)

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Offline CanadaMan

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #875 on: April 19, 2014, 11:09:04 AM »
Which other countries have USA,Britain,etc recently invaded and stolen part of that countries land ..claiming it as their own ?


The Russian cheerleaders on here do talk some rubbish. :rolleyes:

Is it any better raping the land/oil and then leaving it in tatters, sans freedom, sans democracy (as in Afghanistan, Iraq)?

Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #876 on: April 19, 2014, 11:47:13 AM »
I see widespread bitterness as a valid reason to split up a country,



There's bitterness but I think it's more related to how poorly the country was run than political differences. If the economy was doing as well as Poland's, I don't think we see all the hate we see now. West Ukraine holds the cards in the government now. I think it's best the west Ukrainians clear out all their current politicians which are probably corrupt too to show the east Ukrainians they are willing to rebuild the nation from the ground up when moving in a new direction. Without all new politicians, I see a much more difficult road moving in a new direction but it should be better than what Yanukovych did.


Hey bud have a good weekend/easter.



Have a good Easter too Fathertime.


Is it any better raping the land/oil and then leaving it in tatters, sans freedom, sans democracy (as in Afghanistan, Iraq)?


I just had dinner with an Iraqi friend of mine and his family a couple of days ago. His daughter, who lived in America since she was 2,  just brought home a husband from Iraq. She lived in Iraq for 1 1/2 years before coming back and actually enjoyed living there more than in America. My friend is also considering returning to Iraq when retiring. They like Iraq now much more than when Saddam Insane was in charge. It's not as bad as you've heard and although not perfect, it's certainly better than in the past especially since citizens, not just Saddam, are enjoying the wealth their oil brings.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #877 on: April 19, 2014, 12:40:07 PM »

We were nice guys during the crisis in Crimea slapping a few sanctions on Putin's buddies. Didn't work. Obama's handling of this is wrong because here we are again with an even bigger problem. Putin isn't dumb. He won't get into a fight he'd lose. I've dealt with Russian people before, mostly women, and strength is respected. Putin respects strength. One reason Putin is going slow in taking over Ukraine is because if there are too many deaths, America's military may get involved and that is the last thing he wants because it's the only thing he'll back off from.


Yes, he obviously isn't dumb but forget about any US involvement on UA ground or in UA airspace.  MAD still has it's advantages.


Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #878 on: April 19, 2014, 02:30:49 PM »
Which other countries have USA,Britain,etc recently invaded and stolen part of that countries land ..claiming it as their own ?


The Russian cheerleaders on here do talk some rubbish. :rolleyes:

LOL.

Well let's see...I bet an average Okinawan would love to let you about their love for the pesky US presence on their land. Then there is of course the Guamanians. They'll chat-up some sentiment about your statement. And since we're in the Big Ocean, there's the big 5-0. The general population of these islands would love nothing more than to have the same opportunity Crimeans exercised not too long ago.

Come September 2014, maybe the Scots can balance their finance and enjoy the same 'freedom' from the good kingdom your average Irish fought a bloody war for. Lastly, how's the weather at the Falkland Island these days? Any British bombing sorties in the near future on this island? You wouldn't want those pesky Argentinians claiming what belongs to them again, do you?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 02:34:27 PM by GQBlues »
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2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Online Faux Pas

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #879 on: April 19, 2014, 02:49:41 PM »
I disagree with this statement, imo a comparison CAN be made.  I don't see a very significant distinction between taking effective control of a govt using influence/financial pressures, among other things...and outright annexing it as Russia has done with Crimea.  I don't see a significant difference between assassinating a foreign leader and many of the people around him, vs fomenting which it appears Russia is doing in Ukraine.  Of course a US citizen (or anyone else) CAN say there is a big difference, but from Russia's perspective they don't agree, and I see their point.

As you said earlier, Russia is not a strong nation in many respects, but it does have some abilities.  It may not be able to summon the financial pressures (yet) but obviously it can/will use what they do have. 


Going forward,  today I read that one of our US drones went and bombed and killed at least 15, as we deemed them terrorists in training.   Now at some point down the road when other nations/groups get the technology/drones and start deeming our military advisers to be terrorists in training, and kill them, we will cry foul....and will have no leg to stand on....from their point of view we are terrorists.   
Straw man argument um FT. Completely irerelevant but enjoy attacking it anyway

Quote
I've pulled this from a recent parallel thread to demonstrate another example of what I feel is selective reasoning and excuses.  Presumably Russia is the liar and the USA is the nation that makes it near impossible to find the truth.  You have insisted that doing this isn't the same thing.  Well technically you are correct it isn't the same, but that doesn't make any difference other than being able to say "I didn't lie!".  Either way the public doesn't get the correct information.  I don't see a good reason to minimize the USA's fouled up actions while condemning another nation for their more obvious methods.  Once again, we can't have it both ways and act like we are doing everybody a favor.  Myself, I choose to be more focused on our own inconsistencies, and until we do better with them (if we ever choose to), I feel we should keep from whining about other countries methods.  There is VERY little difference in my opinion.
[size=78%]    [/size]

Fathertime!  [/font]

Please FT, stay on topic. I ignored your last post to my previous one intentionally. You've lost any credibility with me of having any valid point. Honestly, you seem like a decent enough chap but, I'm not interested in any further debate with someone so completely intellectually dishonest with your faulty circular logic. I only see one of two reasons for that dishonesty. Your head is planted so far up your butt that you actually believe what you write. In that case, I don't know how you get your shoes tied in the mornings or, you just argue for the sake of argument and have no point to make.

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #880 on: April 19, 2014, 03:28:30 PM »
Difference is GQBlues..English troops,wearing no insigna,but leaping out of British attack Helicopters, won't go into Scotland wearing ski-masks and carrying AK-47'S to make sure the Scots vote to stay with Great Britain in their referendum...so we won't be invading their country and rigging the votes at gunpoint...with Cameron saying "we have no troops in Scotland" ..spot the difference ?


As for the Falklands I suggest you check your facts...the British have claimed sovereignity since 1690..before the Argies came on the scene ,and have exercised defacto sovereignity since 1833..without gifting them to Argentina,so exactly where is the recent invasion and land-grab by the Brits ?

The reality is Argentina tried a Russia style heist and failed.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 03:39:15 PM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #881 on: April 19, 2014, 03:58:55 PM »
Quote
13 People die in U.S. drone attack in south Yemen

The bombings are still being carried out despite the Yemeni Parliament's ban last Dec. 15 on U.S. drones flying over its territory.

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/04/19/13-people-die-in-us-drone-attack-in-south-yemen/

Offline Gator

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #882 on: April 19, 2014, 05:20:11 PM »
The Autonomous Republic of Crimea founded in 1991 seceded from Ukraine and joined Russia after a popular referendum, a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others.

BC,   democratic?!

Please explain the difference between Crimea and Chechnya, both involving Russia. 

Please explain the difference between Crimea and the southern states that seceded from the USA in 1861. 

There are many such examples. 

Offline JayH

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #883 on: April 19, 2014, 08:35:35 PM »
New twist ...
http://censor.net.ua/news/281450/kolomoyiskiyi_ustanovil_nagradu_za_poimku_rossiyiskih_diversantov_10_000_ue_za_kajdogo_i_1_000_ue_za


New twist ...

Quote
Kolomoysky set reward for the capture of Russian saboteurs 10 000 $ for each 1 000 $ per automat

Deputy governor of the Dnepropetrovsk region Boris Filatov proposed new methods of fighting terrorists .

This he wrote in his Facebook transmits Tsenzor.NET .

He noted: First division special battalion "Dnepr" formed and ready to perform combat missions. Roadblocks are set.

Filatov continued: " I ​​thought a lot about the events in Donetsk and Lugansk. Conclusion - this is a revolution of poverty. A revolt of tired, desperate and unheard by those who in power people. Yanukovich's call, plunged our fellow citizens into the depths of despair and today provokes them into separatism, distributing money stolen from people and promising future as part of a hostile neighboring state.

He appealed to the people of Donbass : " Our Russian-speaking brothers from Donbass. Confused. With lost guidelines. Those who have bought into the sweet promises of scoundrels. We have an offer. For each returned gun - paid remuneration for automat $ 1,000; machine gun - $ 1500; a grenade launcher - $ 2,000 .

For each "green man", he is a mercenary that walked into our common ground and trying to push us in the fratricidal war - a fee of $ 10,000. For each freed building handed over to local authorities and under the protection of spetsroty "Donbass" battalion "Dnepr" - a reward of $ 200,000 (and in the territorial community remains free right of access at any time)
http://censor.net.ua/news/281450/kolomoyiskiyi_ustanovil_nagradu_za_poimku_rossiyiskih_diversantov_10_000_ue_za_kajdogo_i_1_000_ue_za


Now-   Kolomoysky  Shot Dead  ?????

-http://www.e-news.in.ua/news/7891-srochno-dvoe-neizvestnyh-rastrelyali-mashinu-kolomoyskogo-kolomoyskiy-ubit-ranen-legko-ohrannik.html
Arrested one of the gunmen. From his words it was not for the sake of reward Ermek Taychibekova .

Journalist group UNNovosti not allowed at the scene, where the works team of investigators.

From such comments or law enforcement officers refrain, referring to the paragraph on the secrecy of the investigation.

As it became known, was arrested one of the gunmen.

According to eyewitnesses of the event that evolved as follows:

After the machine Kolomoyskogo and his guards parked at the curb, Igor V. showing arrogance and carelessness, without waiting for the safety, out of the car parked on the opposite side of the curb machine 2109 and the beginning of the movement drew level with him start shooting.
Shot both driver and passenger seat jumped from the second arrows.
After a few short bursts, the driver, apparently forgetting in a panic about his running mate, drove off at high speed.

Apparently not working professionals, which again confirmed by witnesses, observing the behavior of detention.

Second shooter loss, threw their arms and ran away, but just 150 yards and was caught by guards neutralized Kolomoyskogo.
Before the arrival of the police, he repeatedly shouted out that this act of his remuneration from spodviglo not Ermek Taychibekova, and these people do not have the right to live and to address issues of people and the state.


Added Later !!--

shot at point-blank machine Chairman of Dnipropetrovsk Regional State Administration Igor Kolomoisky! An hour ago, this sensational information appeared on the Internet and flew on social networks. http://www.e-news.in.ua/news/7891-srochno-dvoe-neizve .. Well, I think, Good Friday - and called Kolomoiskiy: "How can you comment on what you shot?" Kolomoysky: "Write this response:" Azohen Vey! " In general, do not be fooled: this is a new attack feykovye to spoil our Easter. Though can not surprising, what resources they throw the fact that social networks are constantly gale.

Perhaps a good rumour for Easter!! But then again-he is mere oligarch!!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:06:15 PM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #884 on: April 20, 2014, 01:24:14 AM »
BC,   democratic?!

Please explain the difference between Crimea and Chechnya, both involving Russia. 

Please explain the difference between Crimea and the southern states that seceded from the USA in 1861. 

There are many such examples.

Difference?  Crimea was a rather peaceful secession.  An autonomous region who's population overwhelmingly voted to secede and be integrated into RU.

What's the end game?

With secession of Crimea, the remaining part of UA lost about 4% of the pro-RU vote.  If a referendum were to be undertaken today in UA RU would likely lose.  Of course that is the impetus of Putin's and pro-RU Ukranian's quest to destabilize the remaining Donbass regions with a high pro-RU density, pushing for more autonomy, so they also might have an opportunity in the near future to align more with RU.

Surely it is of national interest and security to see that happen vs UA aligning more towards EU and the west.  With the turmoil in UA it was simply the right time and place to do so.  Stepping back one might even deem Putin's intent as prudent.

Would the US undertake similar measures if lets say Mexico wanted to realign themselves politically with another world power such as China?  How would the US react to such a situation?  Would all possible measures not be taken to impede such and provide political and strategic 'cover' for Mexico?

Remember also that the last thing EU wants to get involved with is a large scale military action.  After all it also borders RU so sure it's easier for the US to raise the level of political tensions with RU with a protected geographic position, but again that is limited (thank goodness) by MAD.  A war with RU, with either EU or US involvement is simply not feasible.

It's all about leverage.. and right now RU has the most weight on their side of the teeter totter.

Happy Easter All!


Offline JayH

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Russian banks refute accusations of financing separatists in eastern Ukraine
« Reply #885 on: April 20, 2014, 02:17:02 AM »
Russian banks refute accusations of financing separatists in eastern Ukraine

It appears that the stealth invasion of eastern Ukraine is flush with cash. A Ukrainian soldier who had been captured by separatists near the town of Kramatorsk, in a video testimony released by the State Security Service, said he was offered Hr 3,500 per week if he switched sides and $400 to move his family immediately. He said similar offers were made to others.

Prosecutor General Oleh Makhnytskiy said to Channel 5 on April 16 that his office was investigating 14 banks for financing pro-Russian separatists in the east, including the big state-owned Russian bank Sberbank, which has some 900,000 clients in Ukraine and is Russia’s biggest lender.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russian-banks-refute-accusations-of-financing-terrorism-in-eastern-ukraine-344247.html
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Online Faux Pas

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #886 on: April 20, 2014, 05:27:21 AM »
Difference?  Crimea was a rather peaceful secession.  An autonomous region who's population overwhelmingly voted to secede and be integrated into RU.

What's the end game?

With secession of Crimea, the remaining part of UA lost about 4% of the pro-RU vote.  If a referendum were to be undertaken today in UA RU would likely lose.  Of course that is the impetus of Putin's and pro-RU Ukranian's quest to destabilize the remaining Donbass regions with a high pro-RU density, pushing for more autonomy, so they also might have an opportunity in the near future to align more with RU.

Surely it is of national interest and security to see that happen vs UA aligning more towards EU and the west.  With the turmoil in UA it was simply the right time and place to do so.  Stepping back one might even deem Putin's intent as prudent.

Would the US undertake similar measures if lets say Mexico wanted to realign themselves politically with another world power such as China?  How would the US react to such a situation?  Would all possible measures not be taken to impede such and provide political and strategic 'cover' for Mexico?

Remember also that the last thing EU wants to get involved with is a large scale military action.  After all it also borders RU so sure it's easier for the US to raise the level of political tensions with RU with a protected geographic position, but again that is limited (thank goodness) by MAD.  A war with RU, with either EU or US involvement is simply not feasible.

It's all about leverage.. and right now RU has the most weight on their side of the teeter totter.

Happy Easter All!

Peaceful? That would depend on who you asked. Succession? Hardly the description Ukraine would use. There is no democratic process with a rifle pointed at you. Have you ever voted under the guard of foreign troops ?  :D

Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #887 on: April 20, 2014, 08:23:40 AM »
Peaceful? That would depend on who you asked. Succession? Hardly the description Ukraine would use. There is no democratic process with a rifle pointed at you. Have you ever voted under the guard of foreign troops ?  :D

Yes, peaceful.

Haven't heard of any riots or protests, no bombings, no killings, no mass exodus.

Quote
At first glance, the scene at the polling station at Simferopol's High School Number Nine looked little different to a routine local election in England. The queues outside the school were orderly, and there was no sign of intimidation. Nor, however, was there much in the way of real choice on the ballot paper.
Option one was to reunify with Russia. Option two was to declare de facto independence from the rest of Ukraine. Option three – to remain as part of Ukraine as before – did not have a box.

Organisers made a serious stab at making the vote seem fair. The ballot papers were trilingual, in Russian, Ukrainian, and Crimean Tatar. The Telegraph saw no direct evidence of coercion. And the press were mostly left free to roam in and out of polling stations.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10701676/Crimeans-vote-peacefully-in-referendum-but-have-little-choice.html

Yes, as the article also states there was media manipulation, pro Russian stations blocked, political ads on the street one sided.  But heck.. even western media is twisted, tricked, spun, and outright lies.. I was in the US during the last presidential election and voted.  The ads on TV were ridiculously false and misleading.  Full tilt propaganda in the worst sense of the word.  Some even went as far as to pull up all those little 'vote for Obama' flags that lined the roads and neighborhoods.  Yes is still different but only a matter of degree with the same intent.

As I see it the population in Crimea have accepted the results and for me that's quite good enough.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 12:26:06 AM by BC »

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #888 on: April 20, 2014, 09:52:31 AM »
No killings BC ?

One Ukrainian has been killed by a pro-Russian separatist in Crimea..and an off-duty,unarmed Ukrainian officer has been killed by a Russian soldier in Crimea.

And that's just the ones we've heard about from an area now totally controlled by the Russian propaganda machine.
Just saying it like it is.

Offline Gator

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #889 on: April 20, 2014, 10:40:56 AM »
Difference?  Crimea was a rather peaceful secession.  An autonomous region who's population overwhelmingly voted to secede and be integrated into RU.


I agree with you that a majority of Crimea citizens would vote for secession.  The reasons are compelling:

1.  Majority of Crimea population is ethnic Russian.

2.  UA has done an incompetent job of governance over its 20 years of independence.  Politics are unstable and the economy has regressed.  Corruption remains pervasive and deeply rooted.  Change has been attempted (Orange Revolution) yet failed.  Why would the Euromaidan initiatives fare any better?  For sure any forthcoming aid will require severe austerity measures. 

3.  In contrast, the RU politics are stable and the RU economy has progressed.    A citizen would surely be grateful that RU would want them.

This still does not justify Russia violating a country's sovereignty, holding a rigged referendum at gunpoint, and violating territorial integrity?    Sovereignty and territorial integrity should be considered sacred in a peaceful world.     


Quote
Would the US undertake similar measures if lets say Mexico wanted to realign themselves politically with another world power such as China?  How would the US react to such a situation?  Would all possible measures not be taken to impede such and provide political and strategic 'cover' for Mexico?

 :ROFL:   Why not Canada and the US?  I believe the US would welcome China funding economic development in Mexico.  Better their money than ours.  The end result would be less illegal immigration and a stronger trade partner.  An entirely different matter would be massing Chinese military forces at our border.   Has NATO massed troops in Latvia and Estonia at Russia's border.   I assert that in Europe economic development takes precedent over military action . 


Quote
It's all about leverage.. and right now RU has the most weight on their side of the teeter totter.

Ukraine did not defend its territory for good reason.  The hopelessness and bloody consequences of standing up to Russia had already been demonstrated in Georgia in 2008.  The secession of Crimea is thievery, nothing else, a powerful country stealing a prime asset from a weak country.     

This has happened many times in world history.  America did it to Mexico.    It does not make it right.  Europe has seen this too as the beginnings of WWII.    You are the people who will be most affected by an unfettered Putin.   Glad to know you see no future problems.

Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #890 on: April 20, 2014, 10:57:15 AM »
No killings BC ?

One Ukrainian has been killed by a pro-Russian separatist in Crimea..and an off-duty,unarmed Ukrainian officer has been killed by a Russian soldier in Crimea.

And that's just the ones we've heard about from an area now totally controlled by the Russian propaganda machine.

Yeah should have said no mass killings or exodus..

Can't think of a more peaceful 'invasion' in modern times.. can you?  Or was it even an invasion?.. 

Offline Gator

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #891 on: April 20, 2014, 11:23:00 AM »
BC,

You did not answer my question about the inconsistency between Crimea and Chechnya. 

A majority of Chechnya's population is Chechen, not Russian.   Chechnya declared its independence in 1917.  Russia invaded and retook it as part of the USSR in 1921.   Soviet rule was not kind, with forms of Russification, confiscation of property, and even an act of genocide  In 1991 with the Soviet collapse Chechnya again declared its independence.   Again, Russia said "nyet - Russia's interests take precedence over the will of the local people."  Years of bloody war followed with Moscow again prevailing. 

BC, as a believer of Russian referenda, you will like this.  Wiki:  "In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia, but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout." 

That is an amazing result for a people who have fought Russians for 150 years, declared their independence twice only to be crushed by Russians,  and whose population had increased from 66% Chechen (25% Russian) in 1989 to 94% Chechen in 2002 (most Russians emigrated).   

What is common about Chechnya and Ukraine?  Not much other than Chechnya and Ukraine share one interesting factor:  important Russian pipelines run through their territories.

BC, Putin's humanitarian concern for helping people implement their political wishes (and protecting them from Neonazis) must warm your heart. 

Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #892 on: April 20, 2014, 11:50:34 AM »

This still does not justify Russia violating a country's sovereignty, holding a rigged referendum at gunpoint, and violating territorial integrity?    Sovereignty and territorial integrity should be considered sacred in a peaceful world.     

.....

Glad to know you see no future problems.

Unfortunately it is not a peaceful world.  Most of the wars going on don't make the headline news.. some not at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

Why then is this little scuffle so interesting?  In the last 20 years has the US or EU taken great interest in UA unless it was about a gas problem?  RU certainly has.. maybe badly but heck no one else really cared.

Over the last 20 years USAID has sent 1.8 billion to UA.. I'd love to see a graph of that over the years and think most of this amount was in the first 5 post USSR years. 
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/usaid.html  Read the link and decide what if any positive results were achieved.

Now all of a sudden they'll get a clean billion USD from US taxpayers and another billion EUR from EU.  I'm not counting 15 billion in loans offered as they will have to be paid back... Surely if US and EU were really interested, much much more would have been done before or?  But yeah.. since RU was footing the bill why worry.

No, I'm not worried one bit about RU waging war and trying to take over EU as it would make absolutely no sense at all. Neither is anyone else here.  It seems only those across the Atlantic even bring this up.

Putin is taking care of a problem that no one else really gave a crap about.. until now.  Some might not like his approach but heck.. is there anyone else really willing to step up to the bat and clean up UA?

JIMHO



Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #893 on: April 20, 2014, 12:15:16 PM »
BC,

You did not answer my question about the inconsistency between Crimea and Chechnya. 

A majority of Chechnya's population is Chechen, not Russian.   Chechnya declared its independence in 1917.  Russia invaded and retook it as part of the USSR in 1921.   Soviet rule was not kind, with forms of Russification, confiscation of property, and even an act of genocide  In 1991 with the Soviet collapse Chechnya again declared its independence.   Again, Russia said "nyet - Russia's interests take precedence over the will of the local people."  Years of bloody war followed with Moscow again prevailing. 

BC, as a believer of Russian referenda, you will like this.  Wiki:  "In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia, but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout." 

That is an amazing result for a people who have fought Russians for 150 years, declared their independence twice only to be crushed by Russians,  and whose population had increased from 66% Chechen (25% Russian) in 1989 to 94% Chechen in 2002 (most Russians emigrated).   

What is common about Chechnya and Ukraine?  Not much other than Chechnya and Ukraine share one interesting factor:  important Russian pipelines run through their territories.

BC, Putin's humanitarian concern for helping people implement their political wishes (and protecting them from Neonazis) must warm your heart.

Gator,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Dagestan_(1999)

http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1914369_1917860,00.html

I think what I am trying to say is that you, nor I can expect other countries to achieve their goals in the same manner as we might.  The mindset, values, not to mention culture etc are different.  Putin obviously understands the mindset and knows how to get things done his way in his own back yards.  We may object to his way but heck we have enough of a problem trying to get anything done at home with our own deadlocked political machines.

Even a wrong decision is better than indecision...  Try to forget about ideologies altogether and concentrate on results instead.  That seems to be what he is doing... 

Offline Gator

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #894 on: April 20, 2014, 07:37:45 PM »


No, I'm not worried one bit about RU waging war and trying to take over EU as it would make absolutely no sense at all. Neither is anyone else here.  It seems only those across the Atlantic even bring this up.


I understand, and I agree, yet there are ways to exercise power short of military action. 

BC, you raise good points.  I certainly don't pretend to have the answers.  In fact, the more I look at the conflict and the issue of rebuilding UA, the more questions I have.   Personally, based on UA's history for the past 20 years, I question whether UA has what it takes to progress.  If so,  remaining the adopted odd child of RU is perhaps for the best.


Quote
     Putin is taking care of a problem that no one else really gave a crap about.. until now.  Some might not like his approach but heck.. is there anyone else really willing to step up to the bat and clean up UA?   


UA must do it themselves with some aid the same way Germany did it after WWII.    Can they? 

Was Russia not at the highest level of influence for the past 20 years as UA pissed away its opportunities, money and resources?  Russia even had its puppets in charge for several of these years.  So why will it get better in seceded regions under Russian control/authority?   Maybe the removal of Russian influence will enable the smaller, leaner UA to deal with its problems.

If aid (money) is the issue, why did RU seize Crimea and the need to upgrade its infrastructure, etc.   And why seize the equivalent of rust belt industry in eastern Ukraine?  What will it cost to upgrade factories there?    Russia is reducing the size of the problem that must be addressed in making UA viable.  In one regard, RU is doing UA a favor.

In another regard, energy is a key issue.   Western Ukraine has a large shale formation.   Fracking will be implemented out of necessity.  Successful implementation in Ukraine may encourage EU to implement fracking elsewhere and thus reduce reliance of RU gas.  Is RU throwing  Br'er Rabbit into the briar patch?


Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #895 on: April 20, 2014, 08:02:11 PM »
Straw man argument um FT. Completely irerelevant but enjoy attacking it anyway

Please FT, stay on topic. I ignored your last post to my previous one intentionally. You've lost any credibility with me of having any valid point. Honestly, you seem like a decent enough chap but, I'm not interested in any further debate with someone so completely intellectually dishonest with your faulty circular logic. I only see one of two reasons for that dishonesty. Your head is planted so far up your butt that you actually believe what you write. In that case, I don't know how you get your shoes tied in the mornings or, you just argue for the sake of argument and have no point to make.


I think you are mislabeling 'circular logic'  it seems when somebody has a certain point of view different from yours you label it 'circular logic' as a way to discredit the viewpoint...if you can show me SPECIFICALLY where I was using circular logic within this topic, I will stand corrected. 


If you don't like my viewpoint on this topic that is fine, there are several that don't.  Nevertheless, I still hold that the USA has helped created this situation in Ukraine.  That doesn't mean that Russia isn't guilty of aggression....but I sure as hell don't think WE of all people's should be acting all high and mighty about it. 


Regarding your silly comments towards the end, perhaps that is how you would like dialogue to be between us.  I really would prefer not, but I'll go with the flow, going forward...so you can choose.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #896 on: April 20, 2014, 08:08:00 PM »
As I see it the population in Odessa have accepted the results and for me that's quite good enough.

Odessa is a long way from Crimea - why should its population's acceptance (or otherwise) of this annexation have any bearing on your own thoughts?

Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #897 on: April 20, 2014, 08:56:02 PM »
No, I'm not worried one bit about RU waging war and trying to take over EU as it would make absolutely no sense at all. Neither is anyone else here.  It seems only those across the Atlantic even bring this up.



Actually our NATO allies on your side of the Atlantic are more worried about Russia than we and are begging Obama to do something. Most Americans could care less about Ukraine. Most Americans don't even know where Ukraine is.


In other news some American Congressmen are calling on tougher sanctions on Russia since Putin has little interest in removing his troops from Ukraine and honoring the agreement from last Thursday.


If Putin continues to encourage a civil war, he will help the pro Russians win. Putin will then have the option to annex all Ukraine, not just the east and it won't cost the lives of many Russian troops. Like Crimea, there will be no need for outside monitors since we can count on Putin to make sure there's a fair election when it comes time to annex Ukraine.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #898 on: April 21, 2014, 12:25:42 AM »
Odessa is a long way from Crimea - why should its population's acceptance (or otherwise) of this annexation have any bearing on your own thoughts?

Was a brain fart. Maybe Freudian?  :)   Was thinking Crimea.. will correct it.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #899 on: April 21, 2014, 03:17:06 AM »
Was a brain fart. Maybe Freudian?  :)   Was thinking Crimea.. will correct it.

These things happen.  :o

 

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