Newt or Mitt VS Obama. Can either of 'em beat him?

[Gator]

Gator,

In many ways Romney was not able to show a unique path.  For much of the debate he simply repeated what Obama stated.

Romney largely agrees with Obama's foreign policy with some notable exceptions: 

1) Obama should have applied sanctions against Iran at a more accelerated rate,

2) been tougher with China (we fought the war in Iraq yet China got the oil),

3) been more supportive of Israel (surrounded by a sizable Jewish population in South Florida, Obama made sure to say the best words about Israel although Obama's actual actions  towards Israel have not been so supportive,

4) been less cozy with Putin,

5) and been more forthright in messages to Americans (e. g., Benghazi attack).   
 

I believe those are excellent points.  Most Republicans will concede that most of Obama's foreign policies are reasonable, especially when compared with his economic policies.

[BoozeBaron]

Another take on  the 3rd debate.

Yes, to objective observer, it would seem that Obama won by a small margin.

However, some 'experts' are saying that actually Romney won by a small margin.   Reason . . . even though Obama got the better of it from his  aggressive actions . . . Romney was successful in turning back the focus to ECONOMICS several  times.  The experts say (and our European folks here will readily agree) . . . the common folk here care zilch about foreign policy.  They are going to vote on perceived ECONOMICS.  So any reminder of the economic situation is a win for Romney.

+1

Saw the replay last night -and to me it was a 'tie' but Romney was able to pull topics out that mattered in addition to National Security - whereas to me (the casual observer from afar) Obama looked tired and haggered... I know I would be if I were prez LOL - Ever notice how all who enter office with their usual hair colour - by year 4 or 8 are greying?

[Faux Pas]

So Romney's posture was for the purpose of winning the undecided.  What perplexes me is how any person can still be undecided at this stage.  For sure they are taking the election very seriously.  However, all they have to do is examine Obama's economic failures for the past four years, determine if Obama has any new plans, and ask "Will the economy get better?"
 

Yeah I have a problem with that concept myself. But, if the polls are right it is those same voters that will decide which direction this country is headed. Scary thought  looking at it that way huh?

I didn't vote for Obama the first time around as you may have surmised but not for the same reasons I won't vote for him now. I was pretty confident that no matter who won in 08 would be a failure. Obama has held true to form

[BC]

Well my son and I went and 'did the deed' today before flying back home on Saturday.

Surprising how many folks lined up for early voting.  The process was easy and straight forward.

It ain't over till it's over and again it seems only a few will make a huge difference which seems a bit un-democratic.

In the end, sadly, half the country will be happy, the other half unhappy...

.. then it will be back to the same old game.

[BC]

An interesting aside...

It seems the majority of posters on RW related fora lean Republican.

Is there any logic behind that?

[jone]

BC,

I am a certified independent.  And, even though I am from Los Angeles, my permanent home is Wisconsin.  Where I will be voting this year.  I already have submitted for absentee ballot.

My great concern, outside of getting America back to work, is the absolute gridlock that we see in American politics.  Obama promised all of us that he was going to fix that.   Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi stacked the deck in 2009, giving us legislation that was not vetted with the American people.  So in 2010, Americans voted in the Republicans.  Now, no legislation can get through without the consent of both parties. 

Bohener and Reid are good with working across the isle.  But the President is not.  Anyone who has watched him realizes that he polarizes people.  His persona seems to me to be disingenous.  I was hoping for something better.  So along comes this Romney character and I am hoping that, if elected, he can reach across the isle and we can start getting through legislation again.

So, for me, I am pragmatic.  I want our governmental system to work.  Right now, it is broken.  And having Obama as President for four more years looks like four years of stagnation.  Of course I said that when Bush was up for re-election, too.

 

[Faux Pas]

An interesting aside...

It seems the majority of posters on RW related fora lean Republican.

Is there any logic behind that?

Are they leaning Republican or are they leaning away from the liberal policies that they feel are grinding and bringing the country to it's knees?

In my lifetime I have been both. I was raised a Democrat until I saw what Jimmy Carter did to the country. My parents who were lifetime yellow dog democrats thought I was mad and on drugs when I voted for Reagan. By the time George H Bush was running for President they too had converted and are hard line Republican today. For me it was George H that started to sour me. But I maintained.

It was his son, Dubya that convinced me I could no longer be a republican, because I just couldn't support his actions or policies as president. I truly can't go either way and my personal beliefs are currently Libertarian. As a Libertarian I have to vote the lesser of two evils for my vote to count. The current path of Obama's spending like a drunken sailor on shore leave I find completely repulsive and damming for the country. The weakening of America on the world stage is another matter altogether FWIW 

I don't know where the leanings are but, I do see them away from the path we've been on for the last 4 years. Another 4 years like this and I am truly a pauper and lucky to be employed

[Gator]

Well my son and I went and 'did the deed' today before flying back home on Saturday.

I hope you cancel each other's vote.  My AW wife and I stood in line and did that for over 20 years. 
 
Did you check your vote? 
 
http://myfox8.com/2012/10/23/guilford-county-voters-say-they-voted-for-the-wrong-candidate/
 
In Guilford County the George Soros voting machines would take a vote cast for Romney and tally it for Obama!!!!!!!!
 
BTW, while in NC, did you see the billboard below.   Photo taken in Raleigh on New Bern Ave.

In the end, sadly, half the country will be happy, the other half unhappy...

It will be worse than "unhappy."  Obama has polarized America, even fomenting class warfare.  There were many people unhappy with Bush, but not many to the point of abhorring the man.  You can not believe how many Americans despise Obama.

If Obama is elected, who will be unhappy?  The white middle class who believe in work, faith, family and thrift.   That used to be the American ethic.

[GQBlues]

I saw at least three times Romney could have put a pure bitch slap on Obama with Obama's own remarks and false statements. He didn't and I was getting frustrated as to why not. As a result, as soon as the debate was over I declared it a draw. I spent an hour or two after the debate wondering why Romney would let him off those points so easily. There was a TV pundit that made a statement this evening and a light finally came on.

History has shown in previous elections that the final debate weeks before an election rarely sway any voters. With the gains Romney made in the previous two debates this talking head surmised Romney was just being careful to not offend and not lose. Thus never went into attack mode regardless of the opportunity. The idea being he wasn't going to gain any votes and the strategy was to not lose any. Time will tell if the strategy worked I suppose 

Romney didn't have to push the Libya matter at all. The hard facts are already on his side, so no need to step over the possibility of becoming redundantly annoying to many 'undecided' voters by harping over something that is already a given. I, too, thought it was a good call from his campaign group to sway this debate BACK to the economy.

For one, I was repulsed by Romney's seeming knee jerk reaction right after the night of the attack. By letting that sleeping dog lie during the debate, he certainly appeared much more presidential than that clown sitting on the other side of the aisle.

He definitely looked more like the incumbent than the other way around.

When all of this is over, especially if Romney does win the election, I would love to see Carney, Clinton and Rice testify under oath why they persistently and repeatedly declared for days what is now known to be falsehood about the night of 9/11 Benghazi attack.

This election is still too tight to call. I just hope Jimmy Kimmel was right when he said that there's *a term* for a president like Obama....and hope it stays that way.

[Faux Pas]

When all of this is over, especially if Romney does win the election, I would love to see Carney, Clinton and Rice testify under oath why they persistently and repeatedly declared for days what is now known to be falsehood about the night of 9/11 Benghazi attack.

Carney is just a mouth piece given a script to read from each day. The WH spokesperson is nothing more than a face on the admin and not privy to much of anything.

Clinton and Rice are completely different stories. The positions they hold give them all up to the minute intel. They flat out lied and have some 'splaining to do. I would be willing to wager that no matter who wins the election, you'll see the whole Bengazi deal quietly go away

[Shadow]

If the attack was a terrorist action, was putting up the video a diversion?

[Gator]

If the attack was a terrorist action, was putting up the video a diversion?

??? The video was already up and running on youtube.  Hours before the Benghazi attack, the video had prompted a demonstration against the American embassy in Cairo.
 
Perhaps by "diversion" you mean Obama wanted to hide the fact that the Benghazi attack was a terrorist act, possibly by al Qaeda.  Obama had been campaigning as if all the dragons had been slain.  The attack would prove Obama was wrong.   He could not have that, so hence the emphasis on a "demonstration caused by a video" rather than a planned attack by a terrorist organization.
 
A first hand account of the attack:
 
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/21/truth-behind-the-benghazi-attack.html
 
I guarantee that the investigation currently underway will not be released before the election.  Even if it were released, it would prove that Obama is a liar.  Everyone knows that by now.   His university records would also prove he lied.

[BC]

I hope you cancel each other's vote.  My AW wife and I stood in line and did that for over 20 years. 
 
Did you check your vote? 
 
http://myfox8.com/2012/10/23/guilford-county-voters-say-they-voted-for-the-wrong-candidate/
 
In Guilford County the George Soros voting machines would take a vote cast for Romney and tally it for Obama!!!!!!!!
 
BTW, while in NC, did you see the billboard below.   Photo taken in Raleigh on New Bern Ave.

 
It will be worse than "unhappy."  Obama has polarized America, even fomenting class warfare.  There were many people unhappy with Bush, but not many to the point of abhorring the man.  You can not believe how many Americans despise Obama.

If Obama is elected, who will be unhappy?  The white middle class who believe in work, faith, family and thrift.   That used to be the American ethic.

Gator,

my son of course had his free choice and I told him so.  He was not impressed with Romney though and I doubt any canceling of votes.

NC is still a pink republican state and doubt our votes will make much of a difference, but you never know.  My son did question electoral vs popular vote though without prompting and I still wonder about the popular vs electoral vote debate and whether or not this will change sometime in the future.

btw, some 600 of those little roadside flags for Obama were plucked and discarded in this neck of the woods but still, surprisingly, Romney flags are pretty rare.  Most are for local politicians seeking office.  I really expected Romney flags to be in every yard but they are not.  I did not see much of the big billboard political adverts anywhere we travelled, but guess those are harder to steal.

Isn't the mention of 'white middle class' polarizing? What happened to the melting pot theory? Does it even count anymore?

Anyhoo, going to dinner now and then will enjoy a bit of sailing this eve before packing our bags for the long journey home on Sat/Sun.

Between now and the 7th I think I'll just ignore it all.. we've done our part.

Quello che sarà, sarà.

[Gator]

Isn't the mention of 'white middle class' polarizing? What happened to the melting pot theory? Does it even count anymore?

When  11 or 12 years old,  as a  Boy Scout one Saturday I delivered Christmas food packages to needy people in Nashville, Tennessee.   I learned that day how wrong it is to be racist.  That lesson will never be forgotten. 
 
While not a racist, I am now officially polarized.  I have never been that way in the past.  Perhaps it started a long time ago, but I don't think so.  Obama did it.   He creates a horrible taste in my mouth.  If reelected, he will make it worse.   And half of my country will vote for him even though his arrogance and ideology and failures should have sent him packing.. 
 
I almost voted for him in 2008.  Even though I did not, I still hoped he would succeed because it is my country.  He failed miserably.   Now I fully understand why republican leadership did not and could not work with him.  Hit the road Barrack, and don't come back no more, no more, no more...How sweet would that be.
 
You asked about the melting pot.  The melting pot did indeed work in the 19th and 20th centuries.  Everybody pursued the American dream.   We have forgotten what it means to be American.   

[Gator]

Related to the "melting pot" concept is this Racial Voting Bloc Calculator.  Insert 2008 results as a starting point, and adjust the percentages for 2012 scenarios:
 
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/10/politics/voting-bloc-calculator/index.html
 
Among minorities, I understand but do not respect the 96% black vote for Obama in 2008.  The percentage will change a little in 2012 because religious blacks do not approve of same sex marriage.
 
The democrats have been courting the Latinos for years, promising many favors such as citizenship and not requiring "melting," so I can understand the 68% vote (imagine the results of giving a few million Latinos citizenship).   There may be a small backlash in 2012 because Obama did not deliver his promised immigration bill when he had a mandate in 2009-2010.
 
Why did 64% of the Asians vote for Obama in 2008?  Was this about immigration policies?
 
Regarding Asians and Latinos, perhaps many may support Romney because of the economy.   One can "hope" for such a "change."

[BC]

Gator,

honestly, I'm having a difficult time digesting your last two posts.

Much of my life I grew up around the military overseas where racial lines for the most part disappeared.  It was all about what rank or GS number your father or mother had.  Yes it was somewhat of a status 'thing' but at least a neutral factor.

When I moved back to the US in the late 70's for a short stint, I was confronted with trying to 'belong' to a predominately white group where derogative terms were used when talking about folk that were somehow 'different' than the white folk I ran around with.  Unlike the southern drawl that was easily acquired, words like nigger, spics choked me up a bit.  I tried to 'belong' and uttered the same song for a bit but fortunately it did not last long despite trying to 'belong' to my peer group.  I was ashamed and the values I grew up with were stronger.

White, black, latino, asian, whatever... no matter to me.  On another fora even I have been somewhat portrayed as some kind of euro purse toting outcast.. so be it, but in the end I belong to a group of Americans that number in the millions.

That folks in the US, even institutions such as CNN go so far as to highlight race and religion differences in polls is abhorrent.  After all, despite demographic constituency we are talking about Americans.. or?

Gator, I respect you and your views, but when it comes to politics, for me the democratic process rules regardless of the qualities of it's constituents.

When politics and media take the high road and rise above race, religion and ethnicity I will be a happy man and ready to accept any outcome dictated by he democratic process.

In the meantime I won't allow myself to be distracted by such nonsense.

We the people........
 

[jb]

A good read:
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/obama-375873-video-one.html

Especially this paragraph:

We also learned that, in those first moments of the attack, a request for military back-up was made by U.S. staff on the ground but was denied by Washington. It had planes and Special Forces less than 500 miles away in southern Italy – or about the same distance as Washington to Boston. They could have been there in less than two hours. Yet the commander-in-chief declined to give the order. So Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods fought all night against overwhelming odds, and died on a rooftop in a benighted jihadist hell hole while Obama retired early to rest up before his big Vegas campaign stop. "Within minutes of the first bullet being fired, the White House knew these heroes would be slaughtered if immediate air support was denied," said Ty Woods' father, Charles. "In less than an hour, the perimeters could have been secured, and American lives could have been saved. After seven hours fighting numerically superior forces, my son's life was sacrificed because of the White House's decision."

I personally think the "Libya Lie" will be enough to sink Obama if enough Americans see the truth about the really horrible lack of leadership in Washington DC. 

Early voting is in full swing in TX and tomorrow two adults in this household will go to the polls and cast a vote against the idiot-in-chief.

[calmissile]

Gator,

honestly, I'm having a difficult time digesting your last two posts.

Much of my life I grew up around the military overseas where racial lines for the most part disappeared.  It was all about what rank or GS number your father or mother had.  Yes it was somewhat of a status 'thing' but at least a neutral factor.

When I moved back to the US in the late 70's for a short stint, I was confronted with trying to 'belong' to a predominately white group where derogative terms were used when talking about folk that were somehow 'different' than the white folk I ran around with.  Unlike the southern drawl that was easily acquired, words like nigger, spics choked me up a bit.  I tried to 'belong' and uttered the same song for a bit but fortunately it did not last long despite trying to 'belong' to my peer group.  I was ashamed and the values I grew up with were stronger.

White, black, latino, asian, whatever... no matter to me.  On another fora even I have been somewhat portrayed as some kind of euro purse toting outcast.. so be it, but in the end I belong to a group of Americans that number in the millions.

That folks in the US, even institutions such as CNN go so far as to highlight race and religion differences in polls is abhorrent.  After all, despite demographic constituency we are talking about Americans.. or?Gator, I respect you and your views, but when it comes to politics, for me the democratic process rules regardless of the qualities of it's constituents.

When politics and media take the high road and rise above race, religion and ethnicity I will be a happy man and ready to accept any outcome dictated by he democratic process.

In the meantime I won't allow myself to be distracted by such nonsense.

We the people........

I really don't understand your sensitivity to CNN or other 'news' outlets quoting demographic groups in the polls.  The American electorate is made of of many 'voting blocks'. This includes the political parties, labor unions, corporate interests, environmental interests, race, religion, and many others.   Seems you have a hangup about the ethnicity/race part of the equation.  Just see it as another voting block.  In real life, these blocks vote the way they do and there is nothing unusual about it.  People look out for their own interests in any civilization.  We don't live in a perfect world. LOL

[Gator]

I personally think the "Libya Lie" will be enough to sink Obama if enough Americans see the truth about the really horrible lack of leadership in Washington DC. 

It should sink Obama, but will it?  I believe most Obama voters already accept that he is dishonest.  They do not expect Obama to ever come clean.  Many probably realize that Romney is far better for America's economy, without one hint of scandal in his background.   However, they will vote for Obama because he will protect their interests. 
 
Interests consist of:
 
-   Race,
 
-  Immigration,
 
-  Job and pension protection for union and government employees, and
 
-  Issues such as abortion (the underemployed girlfriend of my son is an Obama supporter solely because of the abortion issue). 
 
In addition, there is not a small educated group with long history of liberal views who can not swallow anything that seems conservative.   This last group is intelligent and I  hope some will split their vote:  vote Democrat for Congress but recognize that Romney is far superior.
 
Nixon was re-elected even though he was widely recognized as dishonest to the point of having the nickname Tricky Dick.   The difference is that Nixon's track record was that of a "pro" and not that of someone who increased the national debt at an unprecedented pace while producing little positive results, i. e., a failure with regard to the economy.

[Gator]

Gator, I respect you and your views, but when it comes to politics, for me the democratic process rules regardless of the qualities of it's constituents.

My "polarization" is not about race, so please get off that horse.   And democracy has its flaws, yet it is superior to any alternative.   
 
So what concerns me?   Somehow a President who has proven for four years that he does not know how to correct 1) the slow economy and 2) massive debt crisis is running 50-50 in the polls with someone whose business acumen and leadership is outstanding.   I feel such a President should be losing in a major landslide, even ignoring his dishonesty.

The country needs to be united to prevent us from becoming another Greece or Spain.  Obama has divided us,  more divided now  than I recall in my long  years. 
 
Do you recall a President who has been more divisive at the time when we need to be together?

[jb]

Gator,

Who says it won't be a landslide?  You've no doubt heard of the Bradley effect,,, I think it will be in play for this election.  At least I hope so.

[Gator]

Gator,

Who says it won't be a landslide?  You've no doubt heard of the Bradley effect,,, I think it will be in play for this election.  At least I hope so.

I forgot about the Bradley effect.   The effect did not happen in 2008; in fact, some say there was a reverse Bradley effect.  White guilt wanted to elect what appeared to be a qualified black candidate.

Let's examine the facts about 2008.  Many felt the Bush presidency for 8 years was not successful (we had two wars and the economy was staggering), change was necessary, McCain was not dynamic,  and Obama was a breath of fresh air promising hope and change.  That was enough with or without a Bradley effect.   
 
In 2012, we have seen that Obama's four years were worse than Bush's with regard to the long-term direction of the economy, Romney runs circles around McCain, and Obama is not a breath of fresh air (WSJ called his campaign promises a "Second First Term").   Plus, the debt and fiscal problems have approached crisis levels, demanding more immediate attention than abortion, healthcare, immigration, gun control, etc.  that conservatives don't do well with.
 
So why is Obama near the same level of support as in 2008?  It is implausible to me.  Can anyone give me an explanation?   
 

[Gator]

Another point that JB raised earlier.
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/331892/benghazi-obama-emerges-fog-war-bing-west

It has been 7 weeks since the Benghazi attack.  That is certainly enough time to know who is lying: POTUS, Panetta, Hillary or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
 
Who told our quick reaction force to stand down?  It points to Obama because if one of the others lied, Obama would have his/her head.  Obama had a chance to come clean early, but this coverup is just a sign of his arrogance. 

Perhaps Obama is negotiating a deal with a scapegoat to make it seem like incompetence.

[jb]

Gator;

I think white guilt went away a long time ago.  Now we just want a White House that looks out for America.

Obama only looks out for Obama.

I may be totally out in left field, but I predict it will be Romney with at least 320 EV before the day is done.

BTW, I voted today.   There was a 45 minute line,,, all of the other voters in line were over 40,,, and mostly white females.  Does that tell you anything?  I think turnout for this election will be crucial.

A week from now we will know...  "Sink or Swim"

[Gator]

I may be totally out in left field, but I predict it will be Romney with at least 320 EV before the day is done.

Sweet!!!!!