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Author Topic: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror  (Read 4084 times)

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Offline ML

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How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« on: January 22, 2018, 11:06:36 AM »
http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/halya-coynash-nurse-held-prisoner-revealing-russian-soldiers-russia-claims-not-ukraine.html

Russian people are content to deny and dishonor the existence of their own men who are being killed in Donbas.

(Some excerpts from a long article)

Halyna Hayeva spent 15 months in captivity in the self-proclaimed ‘Donetsk people’s republic’[DPR] before being released as part of the December 27 exchange of prisoners.  Unlike other civilian hostages sentenced to 14 or 17 years for a pro-Ukrainian flashmob or critical blog entries, Haleva really had passed information to Ukraine’s Security Service [SBU]. She told the people in the Volnovakha SBU about Russian officers and ordinary soldiers receiving treatment in her hospital.  Since Russia continues to deny its active military involvement in the war in Donbas, this was enough for the Kremlin-backed ‘republic’ to ‘sentence’ her to 10 years’ imprisonment.

“I really did have access to the sort of information that the terrorists were concealing.  For example, that Russians were being treated in the hospital. … Not just simply Russian citizens.  These were professional Russian soldiers.  I even remember the name of one of them – Alexander Nabiev, from the Amursk oblast, an officer.  The guy’s leg was blown off.  He’s gone on a reconnaissance mission and trod on a mine.  He was worried all the time about what he’d say to his mother, and what he’d do later – he’d played to remain in military service after all.  He said: “I’m a military man, I don’t know how to do anything else.”

His mother had not known that he was in Donbas.  According to Hayeva, he was not the only one.  There were officers, she explains, as well as ordinary soldiers, but there was one crucial difference.

“All of the rank and file soldiers had their documents taken away. And then when one of them arrived at our hospital with wounds, they came to him and said that he wasn’t a soldier, that he’d been dismissed the day before.  When the man is already missing an arm or a leg.  He’s shout, “how am I not in service, how?”  That was how it goes, that’s the kind of practice there”.

 Novaya Gazeta explained that the wife of Leonid Kichatkin had reported his death on Aug 22, 2014 on VKontakte.  By the next day Leonid’s page had disappeared, and when Novaya rang the number that had been given, the woman who was supposedly Leonid Kichatkin’s wife insisted that her husband was alive, well and right next to her.  A man then took the phone and confirmed that he was Kichatkin.

The Novaya journalist found Leonid Kichatkin’s newly dug grave in the Vybuty cemetery outside Pskov.  The photo is that seen on his wife’s VKontakte page.

Valentina Melnykova, Head of the Union of Russian Soldiers’ Mothers Committees, recently noted that Russia has followed the Soviet tradition of not publicizing fatalities.  She believes the secrecy about deaths of Russians in combat in Donbas  may lie partly in the ‘insurance’ payments the families get, and feels frustrated that families have so easily given in and agreed to be silenced. The revelations about the Pskov paratroopers killed in Donbas in August 2014, about other deaths and about attempts to hush them up have not reached the public realm since 2014.

Russia denied from the beginning that it was behind the military conflict in Donbas.  It continues to claim, for example, that soldiers captured 30 kilometres into Ukrainian territory ‘got lost’, that two military intelligence officers seized after the killing of a Ukrainian soldier had ‘resigned’ months earlier and that the sophisticated tanks and other equipment used by Kremlin-backed militants “were found in Donbas mines”.
 

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Offline Boethius

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2018, 12:11:44 PM »
The paper that reported Leonid Kichatkin's death was a Russian newspaper.  So, I think your statement is somewhat too broad.  I mean, we could say the same thing about the US and Iraq, or US incursions into various Latin American countries, or Libya, or Yemen, or Syria, or Kosovo . . .



After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline msmob

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2018, 01:51:34 PM »
ML

This article has been doing the rounds for a LONG time, but you will not see it mentioned on the main TV channels in Russia and one can be fined / imprisoned for discussing troop / arms movements - or risk not getting pensions for relatives who die on a training exercise.

You REALLY don't get it .... you can't / won't see that most Russians do not feel they can change anything or feel that Donbas, Crimea, and much of Ukraine SHOULD be part of Russia. 

We're back to 'the way things were' and 'what you've been taught at school'..  You never did bother to respond on re your attitude to Russians - in general - on another thread ... Did the British blame all the Irish for the IRA's terror campaign or the Irish 'hate' all British ? ... No..   


Started to write this 2 hours ago, but I see Boethius has beaten me to the point that non Kremlin controlled journals have posted this and other stories and risked the wrath of the Russian Media regulator

The Russian MP that stood up and said what  was done in Crimea was not correct is now a crook - may be he is - but he might point out about glasshouses and stones - if the legal allowed

Edited to add: How do Ukrainians not want to rise up - again - as they appear to have Oligarchs running the show ? Perhaps they generally feel - what can we do ? 

That's how it is in RU

« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 01:53:51 PM by msmob »

Offline Boethius

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2018, 02:02:51 PM »
There is a lot of tension in Ukraine.  If you mingle among the average "working class" Ukrainian, that underlying anger and resentment is palpable. 

There have been a lot of extra judicial killings in Ukraine recently of politicians and journalists - anyone who dissents. 


ETA - Just today, an elite military unit was moved from Eastern Ukraine to Western Ukraine.  I believe this is because they sense the tension in that region.  Poroshenko's store in L'viv recently was trashed.  If there is any uprising, I believe it will start in Western Ukraine.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:38:41 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline JayH

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2018, 02:43:41 PM »
ML

This article has been doing the rounds for a LONG time, but you will not see it mentioned on the main TV channels in Russia and one can be fined / imprisoned for discussing troop / arms movements - or risk not getting pensions for relatives who die on a training exercise.

You REALLY don't get it .... you can't / won't see that most Russians do not feel they can change anything or feel that Donbas, Crimea, and much of Ukraine SHOULD be part of Russia. 





Edited to add: How do Ukrainians not want to rise up - again - as they appear to have Oligarchs running the show ? Perhaps they generally feel - what can we do ? 

That's how it is in RU

The article quoted is current --in last few days in Kyiv Post.  It deals with a few things that just happened.

Some of the detail quoted is not new- but the specific link to the nurse  is.
Halya Coynash: Nurse held prisoner for revealing the Russian soldiers Russia claims are not in Ukraine
By Halya Coynash. Published Jan. 22 at 5:55 pm


Moby -- it is YOU THAT DOES NOT GET IT !!!! :cluebat:
ML has often made the point --when all Russians do "get" the idea that they are responsible --yes-each and every one of them that stays silent is complicit in the invasions and deaths of Ukrainians.

As to your comments on internal affairs in Ukraine -- typical of you  to use the Russian whataboutism  to deflect attention from the kleptocracy in Russia -- and the disgusting regime. :deadhorse:

Moby -- you consistently write what amounts to garbage on Ukraine. You attempt to use what you consider your "superior" knowledge often - it only shows what you do not know or understand  .Just as Trenchcoat all too often makes ridiculous statements-- so do you!
PUTIN'S REVENGE --- watch
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22414.msg475364#msg475364
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:55:28 PM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline msmob

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2018, 04:34:33 PM »
The article quoted is current --in last few days in Kyiv Post.  It deals with a few things that just happened.

NO- it doesn't

I note you corrected yourself...

Some of the detail quoted is not new- but the specific link to the nurse  is.
Halya Coynash: Nurse held prisoner for revealing the Russian soldiers Russia claims are not in Ukraine
By Halya Coynash.  Published Jan. 22 at 5:55 pm


Moby -- it is YOU THAT DOES NOT GET IT !!!! :cluebat:

'Sure'... I didn't read a lot of this content - in Russian from a Russian Newspaper and use it in another place ..  in 2014


ML has often made the point --when all Russians do "get" the idea that they are responsible --yes-each and every one of them that stays silent is complicit in the invasions and deaths of Ukrainians.

As ML ( and I guess you ) will have no valid riposte to the Irish / British analogy I offered ...   The above is BS ...  I abhore the away games in Ukraine - but blaming all Russians - plain daft

As to your comments on internal affairs in Ukraine -- typical of you  to use the Russian whataboutism  to deflect attention from the kleptocracy in Russia -- and the disgusting regime. :deadhorse:

The point is sadly - bang on - and well you know it ... but then only one of us has been in both nations, recently


Moby -- you consistently write what amounts to garbage on Ukraine.

Care to remind us of any 'point' ? 

Unlike you, I'll readily concede an error and suggesting all of ML's quote was 'old' was indeed a howler on my part .

Also, unlike you - my eyes aren't blinkered - having been fed vitriol from only one side being brought up in N.Ireland in the 60's and 70's and living in Cyprus in the 'noughties'  - I KNOW nothing is as black and white as it seems.



 


 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 01:12:45 AM by msmob »

Offline JayH

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2018, 05:56:37 PM »
NO- it doesn't

I note you corrected yourself...


'Sure'... I didn't a lot of this content - in Russian from a Russian Newspaper and use it in another place ..  in 2014



Moby -- you really are such a dill .
Generally --I would not bother pointing out why and how you are wrong.

The linked article   -- is about the nurse -- a nurse just released Dec 27  2017  in a prisoner exchange  .
THAT IS WHAT THE ARTICLE IS ABOUT !!!!!!!!!!! :cluebat:

Now --the relevance of other details in article ===  she was being held prisoner because of the information she passed to Ukrainian authorities  ie that the people she was seeing in her hospital were Russian regular troops !!

Now-- we all know that( Russian regulars) is old news now --- but  100% tied directly to her  ( a Ukrainian hero btw !)

So your comment was wrong,wrong wrong.And-I did not correct myself- I tried to make the point I just made here without spelling it out for dills !!

This is typical how you frequently cannot connect dots and make ill considered half arsed replies.

While I am it-- it is not necessary for you to post in every thread and then respond to every other post!

This would be a good time for you to just shut up !!
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline msmob

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2018, 01:35:26 AM »
Moby -- you really are such a dill .
Generally --I would not bother pointing out why and how you are wrong.

The linked article   -- is about the nurse -- a nurse just released Dec 27  2017  in a prisoner exchange  .
THAT IS WHAT THE ARTICLE IS ABOUT !!!!!!!!!!! :cluebat:

'Yes, yes..I'm such a 'dill' - to have to repeat myself - for the hard of reading

1/ I apologised for my howler re identifying all of the article as old..

2/ Much of ML's post is lifted from the original Russian - from a Russian Newspaper ( Novaya Gazetta) in Sept 2014  The Moscow Times ( in English) picked up on it and two days later - EuroMaidan ..note the date - the evening of the 26th August 2014

So, if I'm a 'dill' - what are you? ;)


As to the tale of Halya Coynash. As already pointed out - I abhor the Kremlin away games.


This is typical how you frequently cannot connect dots and make ill considered half arsed replies.

While I am it-- it is not necessary for you to post in every thread and then respond to every other post!

This would be a good time for you to just shut up !!

It is indeed noted that you - just like ML - choose not to respond to my Irish/British analogy re 'hate'  or 'being able to look at themselves in the mirror' AND when you were last in Russia to judge anything....?

So, my apologies - once again - for my error and my posting style is necessary - esp. while the likes of you try to

1/ avoid your (much more ) frequent howlers re 'news' from Russia

and

2/  somewhat unhinged 'dislike' of a people in general - when not even a visitor to that place..

If I'm wrong - I'm happy to be educated, JayH...   You might like to think about that ...



« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 03:47:14 AM by msmob »

Offline JayH

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2018, 02:39:37 PM »
'Yes, yes..I'm such a 'dill' - to have to repeat myself - for the hard of reading

1/ I apologised for my howler re identifying all of the article as old..

2/ Much of ML's post is lifted from the original Russian - from a Russian Newspaper ( Novaya Gazetta) in Sept 2014  The Moscow Times ( in English) picked up on it and two days later - EuroMaidan ..note the date - the evening of the 26th August 2014

So, if I'm a 'dill' - what are you? ;)


As to the tale of Halya Coynash. As already pointed out - I abhor the Kremlin away games.


It is indeed noted that you - just like ML - choose not to respond to my Irish/British analogy re 'hate'  or 'being able to look at themselves in the mirror' AND when you were last in Russia to judge anything....?

So, my apologies - once again - for my error and my posting style is necessary - esp. while the likes of you try to

1/ avoid your (much more ) frequent howlers re 'news' from Russia

and

2/  somewhat unhinged 'dislike' of a people in general - when not even a visitor to that place..

If I'm wrong - I'm happy to be educated, JayH...   You might like to think about that ...


Moby -- you still do not get what is being said.

The article  ML  linked  was current a few days ago.
The article used -- as in-- repeated if you like-- some information published earlier . That was in the article itself.

Now--if you actually had looked at the article and read it --you would not be wasting all our time .
You really are a dunce.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline msmob

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2018, 11:38:58 PM »
Nothing of substance, JayH

1/ the article was new

2/ half the content was from a RUSSIAN newspaper Sept 2014

It is SO difficult to say, 'my bad', JayH?

Now can you deal with your howler elsewhere whereby you claim you don't blame American's as a people...yet here you are blaming all Russians?...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 11:41:37 PM by msmob »

Offline deccie

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2018, 10:23:06 PM »
The more time I spend here the more I become convinced that one of the ways the system here controls the population is to keep them more interested in survival than to worry about trivialities like politics.

Seriously, you are going to be more focused on keeping food in your kids bellies (and your own) than worrying about "somewhere else". This is one reason welfare/pension rates are kept well below the minimum needed for a decent standard of living.

Online krimster2

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2018, 08:38:32 AM »
ha,ha, my wife’s nephew just started serving his enlistment in the 22nd Brigade in the  Southern Military District HQ at Rostov, for Christmas I gave him one of my daughter’s old iphones, now I can use “find_my_iphone”, and find his position to within 30 meters, I’ll let everyone know when they’re on the move this summer! according to him not just the whole southern district, but the whole Russian military has been reorganized for a war with Ukraine.
Putin's window to attack Ukraine, is only open for as long as Trump is still in the Oval Office...

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Путин. Война
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2018, 09:13:20 AM »
Prison? all she got was jail time?
I interviewed just one grieving mother of the Donbass war and I got the death penalty!
--Boris Nemtsov--

I didn’t even know about the Donbass war and I got the death penalty as well!
--Alexander Litvinenko--

There's a war in Donbass?
--Anna Politkovskaya--

Putin has a lot of nerve!
--Sergei Skripal--

Online krimster2

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2018, 09:27:30 AM »
Please remember a man gave his life so that you can read what's in here!

http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf   

The task of the opposition today is education and truth.
And the truth is that Putin is war and crisis.

Why Putin needs this war
Lies and propaganda
How they took Crimea
The Russian military in the east of Ukraine
Volunteers or mercenaries?
Cargo 200
Vladimir Putin's Army Depot
Who shot down the Boeing
Who rules the Donbass
The humanitarian disaster
What does the war with Ukraine cost?

Offline msmob

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Re: "Путин. Война" -[ I didn't write this subject !]
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2018, 10:34:58 AM »
Prison? all she got was jail time?
I interviewed just one grieving mother of the Donbass war and I got the death penalty!
--Boris Nemtsov--

I didn’t even know about the Donbass war and I got the death penalty as well!
--Alexander Litvinenko--

There's a war in Donbass?
--Anna Politkovskaya--

Putin has a lot of nerve!
--Sergei Skripal--

Hmm, given the v.brave Anna Politkovskaya died before the away games in Ukraine kicked off - your attempt at 'humour' fails miserably

[edited to ask - why my response has a different subject header - which *I* didn't add ? ]
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 01:40:44 PM by msmob »

Online krimster2

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2018, 11:31:58 AM »
gozpedy!  that was why she didn't know there was a war!!!

ok, you want to hear a GOOD joke, hmmmm?

alright..... number 42!

that's my favorite one!!!


Offline msmob

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2018, 01:42:08 PM »
gozpedy!  that was why she didn't know there was a war!!!

ok, you want to hear a GOOD joke, hmmmm?

alright..... number 42!

that's my favorite one!!!

Seems it is safe to assume, you've enjoyed your Easter Sunday ..to excess

Online krimster2

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2018, 02:17:57 PM »
for some, excess is not nearly enough ;)

Offline jone

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2018, 03:22:28 PM »
ML,

Didn't they ever tell you "Moderation in everything.  Including Moderation!"
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline msmob

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2018, 01:53:30 AM »
About the recent Presential elections

The key part of these elections was to prove that Russians were 'keen'  to vote...as they weren't


So various schemes were dreamt up to ensure that those employed  by the state voted..

In Sochi you got a little card saying ! thankyou for your vote 'which one was encouraged to photo and send a photo of it to someone collating this proof...




Offline ML

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Re: How can Russians look at themselves in mirror
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2018, 12:44:39 PM »
About the recent Presential elections

The key part of these elections was to prove that Russians were 'keen'  to vote...as they weren't


So various schemes were dreamt up to ensure that those employed  by the state voted..

In Sochi you got a little card saying ! thankyou for your vote 'which one was encouraged to photo and send a photo of it to someone collating this proof...

I don't really understand how some of these schemes are supposed to work.
Person can go to vote; but they can then vote however they want, including for Putin's opposition.

Likewise in USA, Hillary now claims that many women voted for Trump because their husband's 'forced them to.'  But once inside the voting booth, a person can vote for whomever they want . . . and can later tell that their vote went to what ever candidate they wish to state.

The only time when this free choice idea doesn't work is in cases where people must hand-write out their choice; but I don't think these systems exist any more in most countries.
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

 

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