BiilyB's 'research' Trench's 'fawning admiration' re RW's TR to Odesa

[Nat]

Nat didn't mention the new apartments are central. Could be on the outskirts of the city. I bought a new apartment in an elite neighborhood in Ivano-Frankivsk last year for $19,000. The dollar tripled in value there since the war started. Nat also said "+ remodeling". My apartment was a concrete box. Had to put up money to do the kitchen, bathroom, floor, etc....

BillyB has basically said what I was going to say. Of course it's not in the city center, but it's IN Kiev.

We paid around $100,000 for 3 room apartment in new building near new US Embassy in Kyiv back in 2014.  That was just the shell.  Put in another $50,000 or so plus a lot of free labor from me, friends and relatives that might have been worth $30,000 or more.

Standard old 2 room Khrushchyovka's still go for $60,000 or so in outer districts of Kyiv.

My condolences Prices in 2014 were really overrated... Personally I also made an unwise purchase which I've regretted ever since. I could buy 3 for the same money now.

http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-twin-house-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-2-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2

These are links to prices for appartments in new buildings in Kiev which are being built right now. The average price for a studio is stated below the pictures. As I said, it's about 25000$.

Not entirely sure what you are smokin.
[...]
Please stop with this nonsense.

That's the talk from a guy from the Netherlands    Honey, not everybody's smoking something all the time  And if you need some info, there is a handy site which is called Google, so go and google it yourself, because I have no desire to hold a conversation in such a way and I don't really care whether you believe me or not

It has never been embarrassing to be poor in the West, either.   I doubt it is an "acceptance" of poverty at play.  Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur, nor should they be.

No, you missed my point. It used to be and for some it still is embarrassing to be rich. Some people still believe that even if they want it, they are unable to reach it, although, as my examples above show, they are, if they make an effort and stop complaining instead of doing something.

The attitude displayed by Nat is why Ukraine will remain a mostly failed state, and why it will never be accepted as part of the EU.   I can't blame her or other Ukrainians though, when they have the example of the grifters running the country at all levels.

The transition process has to take a while. You can't turn a post-soviet country into a European one with the swing of a magic wand. I'd say that it even got much worse in the last 3 years - I've never seen so much corruption on all levels before. But that doesn't mean that people are getting poorer - vice versa, which is a kind of paradox, and that was the subject of our discussion, right?

Don't get old or sick in Ukraine.  Don't expect water you can drink straight out of the tap, or great roads all across the country, or a bureaucracy that runs efficiently or bribe free.

Sadly, but all this is absolutely true. That's why a lot of people want to relocate, again, not because of poverty. Because even if you have a lot of money, you can be killed by unskilled doctors when you turn for medical help.

So, I'm not telling life in Ukraine is all moonlight and roses, but it always fascinates me how people like getting diverted from what was said initially and start providing the arguments which have nothing to do with the original post Standards of living weren't the subject of discussion - it was about salaries, the info on which was totally out of touch with the reality  

[BillyB]

A better 'feel' for the rea estate market would be  dom.ria.com or OLX.ua. Normal values for an shell apt are much higher than the 'cherry picked' 20K shown as an example. 

Cherry picked or not, it is what it is. Nat was right. Maybe people could ask her to find good deals for an investment since many couldn't find the deals themselves. Dollar has tripled in value since the war started. Risk is involved but rewards can be high.

[Boethius]

No, you missed my point. It used to be and for some it still is embarrassing to be rich. Some people still believe that even if they want it, they are unable to reach it, although, as my examples above show, they are, if they make an effort and stop complaining instead of doing something.

No, I didn't miss your point. 

Ideology ensured the non elites could not become rich.  How could you become rich if you were forced to work for the state, at a salary determined by that state, and were arrested if you sold anything?  Where owning a business, or even selling flowers on the street was illegal?  The only way to become rich in the USSR was by becoming a party member.  No party member was ashamed of his/her riches.  Quite the contrary, actually, though showing it off was strongly discouraged.

The transition process has to take a while. You can't turn a post-soviet country into a European one with the swing of a magic wand. I'd say that it even got much worse in the last 3 years - I've never seen so much corruption on all levels before. But that doesn't mean that people are getting poorer - vice versa, which is a kind of paradox, and that was the subject of our discussion, right?

By all objective criteria, they are getting poorer.

Sadly, but all this is absolutely true. That's why a lot of people want to relocate, again, not because of poverty. Because even if you have a lot of money, you can be killed by unskilled doctors when you turn for medical help.

So, I'm not telling life in Ukraine is all moonlight and roses, but it always fascinates me how people like getting diverted from what was said initially and start providing the arguments which have nothing to do with the original post Standards of living weren't the subject of discussion - it was about salaries, the info on which was totally out of touch with the reality

You diverted as well.  Look at the header of the thread.  But if this "fascinates" you, you are easily fascinated.

Nevertheless, you are cherry picking on salaries.  Most Ukrainians are not earning $3000 a month as IT specialists. 

I think people want to leave because of corruption, and the lack of a future.

[BillyB]

Look at the header of the thread.

 

Msmob didn't name this thread. Do you know who named it?  I think it should've been named "Msmob and JayH can't handle a few posts by others and go ape shit on others in a trip report just like Jone did in his own trip report." I like that better.

[JayH]

Msmob didn't name this thread. Do you know who named it?  I think it should've been named "Msmob and JayH can't handle a few posts by others and go ape shit on others in a trip report just like Jone did in his own trip report." I like that better.

Silly Billy - there is no need to keep proving what a dunce you are == everyone has already seen it.
Needless to say-you have missed the point on why posts were moved ( more should be) as they were not appropriate in an ongoing TR.

[BillyB]

JayH, does it hurt you that Trenchcoat gets more action than you're getting? When you get this man woman relationship thing figured out, come back and let us know, will ya?

[Boethius]

Silly Billy - there is no need to keep proving what a dunce you are == everyone has already seen it.
Needless to say-you have missed the point on why posts were moved ( more should be) as they were not appropriate in an ongoing TR.

They weren't moved. Moby started this particular thread.

[JayH]

They weren't moved. Moby started this particular thread.

Thankyou for the clarification.
Now can you move all of SillyB and TC's stupidity here ?

[JayH]

JayH, does it hurt you that Trenchcoat gets more action than you're getting? When you get this man woman relationship thing figured out, come back and let us know, will ya?

Really Silly Billy-- there is no need to keep proving what an idiot you are/

[BillyB]

They weren't moved. Moby started this particular thread.

I believe you Bo. I seen a few of JayH's rants left behind in the trip report. Only Moby and JayH are on topic here based on the thread's title. They really need to get to a happy place.

[msmob]

Only Moby and JayH are on topic here based on the thread's title. They really need to get to a happy place.

Can't speak for JayH but I'm perfectly happy to counter your more bizarre contentions..   *I* chose the thread title - hoping you'd HAVE A CLUE and stop polluting Rw's Odesa trip report thread ...

Why is it some folks think correctly pointing out howlers means I'd be 'unhappy' or a 'hater' ?  

[JayH]

Can't speak for JayH but I'm perfectly happy to counter your more bizarre contentions..   *I* chose the thread title - hoping you'd HAVE A CLUE and stop polluting Rw's Odesa trip report thread ...

Why is it some folks think correctly pointing out howlers means I'd be 'unhappy' or a 'hater' ?

And what did the dumb arse do? Keep on interrupting the other thread with his inane comments !  needless to say== so did the idiot clown Trenchcoat . 

[BdHvA]

http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-twin-house-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2
http://novostroyki.lun.ua/%D0%B6%D0%BA-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B0-2-%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2

These are links to prices for appartments in new buildings in Kiev which are being built right now. The average price for a studio is stated below the pictures. As I said, it's about 25000$.

Sweet Pea,

All 3 links you noted are a healthy walk to the Chernihkyka Metro station on the right bank. It is about the same as calling the Bijlmemeer part of Amsterdam or Dartford part of London.

Here is a link to an apartment for sale in an existing building in a good section of Kiev, 70+ sq. meters. 1970's build. And needs updating

http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodam-3-h-komnatnuyu-na-ul-panasa-mirnogo-11-IDu1zov.html#bbf785402f

This is real, and three times the fantasy you are trying to project.

[BillyB]

Here is a link to an apartment for sale in an existing building in a good section of Kiev, 70+ sq. meters. 1970's build. And needs updating

http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodam-3-h-komnatnuyu-na-ul-panasa-mirnogo-11-IDu1zov.html#bbf785402f

Old apartments in the center of the city can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. New modern unfinished apartments can be bought of under $25,000 easily in various areas of the cities I've visited. You're right and Nat is right.

[Nat]

Sweet Pea,

All 3 links you noted are a healthy walk to the Chernihkyka Metro station on the right bank. It is about the same as calling the Bijlmemeer part of Amsterdam or Dartford part of London.

Here is a link to an apartment for sale in an existing building in a good section of Kiev, 70+ sq. meters. 1970's build. And needs updating

http://www.olx.ua/obyavlenie/prodam-3-h-komnatnuyu-na-ul-panasa-mirnogo-11-IDu1zov.html#bbf785402f

This is real, and three times the fantasy you are trying to project.

I used to live in an old luxurious building in the very center of Donetsk. Now I'm staying in a newly built apartment building, let's say, on the outskirts of another city, on the 15th floor, with a view over half the region )) It has no problems with water pressure, ventilation, insulation, the stairs hall is cleaned every day, including the windows, and there is a round-the-clock concierge service, as well as fast modern elevators and just amazing fresh air from the nearest forest. [size=78%][/size]I really hope the war in Donetsk will finish and I'll be able to come back home, but I don't know how I'm gonna live in this old luxurious building in the very center after I have already tried a much better option.
The one which you've provided link to is not a luxurious building, it's a piece of panel crap, with tiny dangerous elevators which are about to fall down, cold, ecologically unfriendly and with constant problems with everything, including cockroaches. The apartment itself hasn't been renovated for, like, ages, which means you'll have to pay more money just to remove the junk out of it. So, there is no demand for such crap, especially for 75k dollars, the price is absolutely unreal. Actually, there is a trend all over Ukraine now not to buy flats in such buildings for any price, because they are totally worn out technically. So let's do an experiment - just save the link which you're found and check on it from time to time. It's not gonna be sold in a month, nor in half a year, nor in a year - there's no demand for such flats at such prices.
Although, I don't know why I'm explaining you these obvious things ))

[BdHvA]

I used to live in an old luxurious building in the very center of Donetsk. Now I'm staying in a newly built apartment building, let's say, on the outskirts of another city, on the 15th floor, with a view over half the region )) It has no problems with water pressure, ventilation, insulation, the stairs hall is cleaned every day, including the windows, and there is a round-the-clock concierge service, as well as fast modern elevators and just amazing fresh air from the nearest forest. [size=78%][/size]I really hope the war in Donetsk will finish and I'll be able to come back home, but I don't know how I'm gonna live in this old luxurious building in the very center after I have already tried a much better option.
The one which you've provided link to is not a luxurious building, it's a piece of panel crap, with tiny dangerous elevators which are about to fall down, cold, ecologically unfriendly and with constant problems with everything, including cockroaches. The apartment itself hasn't been renovated for, like, ages, which means you'll have to pay more money just to remove the junk out of it. So, there is no demand for such crap, especially for 75k dollars, the price is absolutely unreal. Actually, there is a trend all over Ukraine now not to buy flats in such buildings for any price, because they are totally worn out technically. So let's do an experiment - just save the link which you're found and check on it from time to time. It's not gonna be sold in a month, nor in half a year, nor in a year - there's no demand for such flats at such prices.
Although, I don't know why I'm explaining you these obvious things ))

Thank you.

You just managed confirm that you earlier statement is a lie. It is not possible to purchase an apartment in the center of Kiev for $25,000.=

Have a good day.

[BillyB]

Thank you.

You just managed confirm that you earlier statement is a lie. It is not possible to purchase an apartment in the center of Kiev for $25,000.=

Have a good day.

I haven't read anywhere where Nat said an apartment can be bought in the center/downtown Kiev for 25K. I do know brand new apartments can be bought in large cities for under 20k. It's funny how we hear and read things differently.


I can imagine men going on a date with Nat and react to her mentioning how much IT specialists can make and how cheap apartments can be bought.


1) First guy listens and quietly think's Nat is stupid and doesn't understand reality. He doesn't ask her for a second date.


2) Second guy accuses Nat of being a liar and gets into an argument with her. No second date for Nat.


3) Third guy tells Nat her mind is so sexy. He's turned on to the point he's kissing her all over on the first date but Nat refuses any advances past third base because she's not that type of girl. On a future date the man proposes marriage because he wants a girl who'll triple his money since Nat knows how to find all the deals. Nat accepts and their bank account balloons. They live happily ever after.

[BdHvA]

Nat, Used as reference properties in Kiev, so I assumed. My misatke.

An apartment in a newly build building is 25k + remodeling, so if you earn 3k, you can totally live off 500usd and have enough money to buy an apartment in 10 months, without any mortgages. We don't have high property tax. Utility bills have gone up, but they are still affordable if you live in a modern building.

[BillyB]

I've read that too but it's missing the word "center" which is basically downtown in an American city and cost skyrocket there. If Nat said "center", I would question her too. Center apartments, although old, can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.


Nat also has a point those old apartments require a lot of maintenance. I also wonder if those old pipes delivering water are free of lead and other harmful metals.

[Nightwish]

I haven't read anywhere where Nat said an apartment can be bought in the center/downtown Kiev for 25K. I do know brand new apartments can be bought in large cities for under 20k. It's funny how we hear and read things differently.


I can imagine men going on a date with Nat and react to her mentioning how much IT specialists can make and how cheap apartments can be bought.


1) First guy listens and quietly think's Nat is stupid and doesn't understand reality. He doesn't ask her for a second date.


2) Second guy accuses Nat of being a liar and gets into an argument with her. No second date for Nat.


3) Third guy tells Nat her mind is so sexy. He's turned on to the point he's kissing her all over on the first date but Nat refuses any advances past third base because she's not that type of girl. On a future date the man proposes marriage because he wants a girl who'll triple his money since Nat knows how to find all the deals. Nat accepts and their bank account balloons. They live happily ever after.

Nat, single and looking?   
no no not for me, Tanya would eat my balls for breakfast..and I am quite attached to them..
 but I do have a very single friend..

[BdHvA]

The vast majority of the piping I have seen is copper. There are some certain quirks that make the older flats funky. Wood floors laid down with tar/pitch.

Allot depends on the other residents and occupiers. Not much different than any where else. Oddly some have great enterances and others are dumps. Prerevolution buildings in downtown Kivy, Petersburg or the few that still exist in Moscow are amazing.

[Nat]

Thank you.

You just managed confirm that you earlier statement is a lie. It is not possible to purchase an apartment in the center of Kiev for $25,000.=

Have a good day.

I haven't read anywhere where Nat said an apartment can be bought in the center/downtown Kiev for 25K.

Nat, Used as reference properties in Kiev, so I assumed. My misatke.

Your mistake is to argue with Nat    Especially when you fail in reading her posts attentively, then start assuming various BS and then get freaked out by the BS you've assumed 

1) First guy listens and quietly think's Nat is stupid and doesn't understand reality. He doesn't ask her for a second date.

2) Second guy accuses Nat of being a liar and gets into an argument with her. No second date for Nat.

3) Third guy tells Nat her mind is so sexy. He's turned on to the point he's kissing her all over on the first date but Nat refuses any advances past third base because she's not that type of girl. On a future date the man proposes marriage because he wants a girl who'll triple his money since Nat knows how to find all the deals. Nat accepts and their bank account balloons. They live happily ever after.

   

Nat also has a point those old apartments require a lot of maintenance. I also wonder if those old pipes delivering water are free of lead and other harmful metals.

I'm not sure about lead, I HOPE there isn't any, but the rest of Mendeleev's table... It looks like this:
http://mtdata.ru/u24/photo6C0D/20133988587-0/original.jpg
(although this particular one is from Russia [size=78%] [/size])

Nat, single and looking?    no no not for me, Tanya would eat my balls for breakfast..and I am quite attached to them.. but I do have a very single friend..

Well, actually Nat wasn't looking, Nat was just having fun, but if you have a really nice single friend, then Nat might consider...   

[ML]

Well, actually Nat wasn't looking, Nat was just having fun, but if you have a really nice single friend, then Nat might consider...    [/size]

Why cut out half the men ??

[Nightwish]

Why cut out half the men ??

I assume you mean the single part 
ML wants a piece of this to I think..

[2tallbill]

So vast majority if crash and burns at such suspect agencies , is over a METHODOLOGY, 
of a guy chasing a girl out of his league.

This methodology, wouldn't be generally successful in his home town,  at a free site of FSU
women, or with fsu women he met at the park.

If he dated FSU women his age, in relative attractiveness to his looks and and status, it
would not matter if he met them off a ppl site ,a free site or the park, we wouldn't even
be having this discussion.

So to think the crappy ppl.sites, are the real heart if the issue cracks me up.
The men's expectations are.

They travel to a poor economy, a culture and society where corruption is a way of
life and accepted as status quo, then think *where* they find the woman has much
bearing on any given woman's ethics.

The reason guys should avoid ppl, is because they are like moths to the flame, they
write the ten hottest youngest women, or as close to it as the personally dare, and
wonder why there are issues. They can't bring themselves to correspond with the
thousands and thousands  of women in just one city on such sites they'd consider
average.

I know a pile in Nikoleav that are quite attractive, early to late 30s and never get
a sincere letter in 3 or 4 years. They then typical give up, as they never really felt
it possible anyway.

To label all agency girls as unethical, over the percent that are mercenary, is silly.


To wade through the ppl bad agency crap, we say is too tough.
Its, only too tough because men are men.

I married someone 19 years younger, and breathtakingly beautiful inside and out,
so admit the glass house  .

My wife was 28 when we met.
So don't take it harshly, I'm throwing pebbles not stones!

But I don't hide behind crappy excuses, or blame mercenary girls for any failure
of my own. I own my actions, every one of them, poor or not, and frankly had no
problems telling a good person from a mercenary one.

If I did not,  I'd have mitigated my losses and taken my lumps.
In fact I'd have probably felt *good on ya girl* and know I was as culpable as she,
and just moved on.

It's about attitude. Its about realistic expectations,
And it's about knowing what you have to offer as a partner
(very little of that worth is measured financially)

I've made decent money some years ad zero some years,means nothing.
My wife has worked ,and would gladly carry us, if I was unable to at any given time.
She's never had to ,but the attitude of a team, a partnership in life as a family is
fundamental to how she thinks,reacts, lives.
As long as its a husband she loves & respects this is typical of an FSU woman s mentality .

So guys going on  about a subset of 20 yo smokinhotkovas, being totally mercenary,
is actually a bit amusing .

These are not the guys a model looking 20 to 25yo NYC or LA socialite is regularly dating,
and within that group of girls  ,there is a pretty good percent of mercenary status climbers.

So yes guys should avoid flying to NyC to meet them, unless buying very high end items
is their idea if true romance right?

Wow AJ,

You posted at least a dozen gems of wisdom there and some of them huge flawless
diamonds. Guys should print this out and post it on their refrigerator door.

They can't bring themselves to correspond with the thousands and thousands
of women in just one city on such sites they'd consider average.

Here is the thing. Those girls would only be considered average compared to the
hottest 5-10% of the girls on the website who have the luxury of photo shop.
If they saw those "average girls" in real life at a barbecue they would
probably p!ss themselves and be too nervous to walk up and talk to them.

Yet while in Ukraine they think that they can get a top 5% girl when they can't
and they are spoiling their real chances with the other 95%.

Lastly
I also see you are still wearing your motocross gloves and goggles (last tear off from
recent mud race still not torn off) while you post from your not yet smart phone.
I am hoping that when they print out your post and put it on their refrigerator door
for reading every day that this will help them learn to decipher messages from FSUW
with broken English. 

I corrected some of the grammar and changed the size above in case anybody is
smart enough to print out AJ's post quoted above. I am going to copy and paste it
in the Pursuing FSUW 101 thread here
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.new#new