Which City should I go to?

[Trenchcoat]

Ok guys (& girls) at the risk of offending TMD still further I feel compelled to ask another question, namely, which City in the FSU do you guys think I should go to?

Not in order of preference my thoughts are:

Kharkiv - Ukraine easy to get into and stay a while, I have not been to Kharkiv yet and here it may have plenty of girls to chose from. I may see if Mila can be of assistance. However, I wonder if Ukraine is just a bad place to look for a girl even though they have some beautiful women there I fear I am stacking the odds against me searching in region full off girls with no good motives.

St. Petersburg - a touristy city I have not been to. The Visa issue is difficult for UK citizens. It seems like you need to pay for where your staying first to then get a stamp necessary for the visa, crazy. I'm thinking the trouble and extra expense might well pay off and end up cheaper than messing around with Ukraine and a dodgy dating scene. Also more to do there, I could meet up with Sprotz show him the ropes.

Tiblisi - Georgia is even easier than Ukraine for UK as it looks like they allow you to stay there for a year visa free. Looks pretty there, from the internet and again never been. Girls there look like they may be more the type to go for a guy they really want to be with from what I have heard. However, while a girl not putting it about too much is good from an STD point of view if she is too uptight with intimacy/affection then I think it might be a problem. I'm also not sure if the georgian girl type of look is one that would attract me plus I'm not sure of the number of girls available for dating.


So there we are, I'm looking to stay in whichever city seems best for at least a month, most probably longer. Feel free to suggest other cities. I thought of Minsk but not sure if a good place to be and visa issues again. Other more far flung cities in FSU possible but without a specific girl to go there for seems like sticking a pin in a map to me.

[BdHvA]

Based on your question, I sort of doubt 'common sense' is not part of your vocabulary.

May I suggest Atlantis.

[ML]

I highly recommend Kharkiv and Dnipro.

And there is nothing wrong with Ukrainian women anymore than there is with women in any other FSU country.

I think Belarus may be the best of all places to go.  I  haven't been there, but am impressed by everything I have read from guys who have gone there.

I have laid out the steps in Starting Out about how to avoid scammers, no matter where they may be.

I have had correspondence (thousands), meetings (hundreds) and relationships (dozens) with Ukrainian women with hardly any scammer problems.  Less than 5% I correspond with, 1% I met with, 0% I had relationship with.

[BillyB]

Here's an idea. Communicate with lots of women no matter where they live. Find one you click with and she clicks with you. Visit her no matter where she lives. Fall in love with a woman, not a city. 

[treadmilldude]

Based on your question, I sort of doubt 'common sense' is not part of your vocabulary.

May I suggest Atlantis.

BdHvA   I love that song Atlantis. I remember vividly the day I saw "Goodfellas" in the movie theater. And I remember vividly both this song and this scene from, IMO, one of the 5 greatest movies of all-time and Martin Scorcese's finest work as a director (again IMO). Scorcese is my favorite director, he is "The Master". Yeah, Goodfellas is absolutely one of my favorite movies of all-time. Atlantis is a great song, and man the second I clicked on your link, BdHvA .....instantaneously the thought that popped in my head was ""Goodfellas - Bar Scene"".

Atlantis starts at 1:05 of the youtube clip and runs to the end of the clip. Great song Man, brings back a lot of great memories. Goodfellas is the finest mob movie ever made.

[Trenchcoat]

Here's an idea. Communicate with lots of women no matter where they live. Find one you click with and she clicks with you. Visit her no matter where she lives. Fall in love with a woman, not a city.

Nope not getting into that one again. For some that have the time to devout countless hours of chitter chatter, messaging, Skype and going out to meet a woman at the end of it that they get on well with and is sincere (at least until she see's there is anything there) but may not be into them just isn't for me. I don't like the idea of being fixed up with a woman for a week or whatever then finding on arrival there is nothing between us or some other weird situation. I'm not the type of guy that finds it easy dropping someone I've made commitments to even if it is just to see each other unless of course it's painfully obvious there is nothing there and neither of us are enjoying it or she is a real bitch or scammer type. I would rather go with my hands free, do all the searching in a particular city, do a series of meets until I find the woman there is chemistry with on the basis that the woman there is chemistry with everything will (hopefully) fall into place since she will be wanting to make it work as much as me. I personally think it will be fun to meet many women and have no commitment until I wish to in person. I'm going to be in whatever city a while if I can help it so I won't need to rush it when there.

[BillyB]

For some that have the time to devout countless hours of chitter chatter, messaging, Skype and going out to meet a woman at the end of it that they get on well with and is sincere (at least until she see's there is anything there) but may not be into them just isn't for me.

How many hours did it take type over 900 posts? You could've cut and pasted thousands of introductory messages and sent them to thousands of women. You've also read way more posts than you typed. How many hours did that take? You have plenty of hours. Apply it in better ways. It's understandable you are worried about spending lots of time and then getting involved with the wrong girl since you struck out on the last two. The problem isn't the method you used. The problem is how you analyze women. Practice makes perfect so talk to a bunch of women and learn to read them better. A few guys here told their story to you about the things their women said and did to prove they were "into" their man. Your women were never into you and you hung onto them much longer than most of us would.

If you choose to visit a city, you may run into the same problem as you did before when meeting women. You won't be able to tell which girl is best for you and which girls you need to discard. Also, the way you talk and act in front of women may turn off the girls you're trying to attract. Think about those things and make necessary changes.

[Anotherkiwi]

Based on your question, I sort of doubt 'common sense' is not part of your vocabulary.

May I suggest Atlantis.

Now, now!  Atlantis was never part of the FSU. 

I, however, was going to suggest Fairbanks, which was (sort of...). 

[Trenchcoat]

How many hours did it take type over 900 posts? You could've cut and pasted thousands of introductory messages and sent them to thousands of women. You've also read way more posts than you typed. How many hours did that take? You have plenty of hours. Apply it in better ways. It's understandable you are worried about spending lots of time and then getting involved with the wrong girl since you struck out on the last two. The problem isn't the method you used. The problem is how you analyze women. Practice makes perfect so talk to a bunch of women and learn to read them better. A few guys here told their story to you about the things their women said and did to prove they were "into" their man. Your women were never into you and you hung onto them much longer than most of us would.

If you choose to visit a city, you may run into the same problem as you did before when meeting women. You won't be able to tell which girl is best for you and which girls you need to discard. Also, the way you talk and act in front of women may turn off the girls you're trying to attract. Think about those things and make necessary changes.

If I spam thousands of girls I could get hundreds of replies back, they will all take time to sift through and deal with. Id on't think a scatter gun approach will work well for me. I've got an idea of the type of girl I like and think best of going over there and calling as many of them up as I can until I get one with strong chemistry. Time as they say is money

I think I'm a lot more in tune now with what I seek from a FSW and though my skills of analyzing women may not be as good as some I think if I'm able to assess the girl in person and find one with naturally strong chemistry then I won't need to worry to much about analyzing her. I don't feel I can do than from behind a computer screen, it kind of feels like I'm being blindfolded and told to go pick a girl.

I try to act decently in front of a girl and not may an idiot of myself. How exactly you mean with, "the way you talk and act in front of women may turn off the girls you're trying to attract" I don't really know. I mean I don't have the gift of the gab, not even close and I'm no 'in-crowd' type of personality. I talk to the girl as often and as best I can and though not an extrovert type I try not to be too quiet, I can speak up as needed if that's what you mean. 

[BillyB]

If I spam thousands of girls I could get hundreds of replies back, they will all take time to sift through and deal with.

You're trying to catch one girl but you're complaining if a hundred girls want to talk to you? Some guys choose only one or a few girls to communicate with. What are the chances they will find the right woman with the small batch they've allowed themselves?

I've got an idea of the type of girl I like and think best of going over there and calling as many of them up as I can until I get one with strong chemistry. Time as they say is money
 

It costs money to date those girls and dating takes time. The internet is just a tool. You can use this tool to filter out many of the ladies you're not compatible with prior to going over there saving you time and money. By showing up, you increased your chances of getting ladies to go out with you who would've never thought you are worth corresponding with. Women are less likely to pass up a date with a foreigner in town. You would be paying for the date and you won't know until after multiple dates whether or not she grows fond of you. Those ladies have no obligation to be a good hostess to you and take care of you while you're in town. Many of us discovered how much our women liked us based off their actions during our visits. We built a bond before visiting them. My wife met me at the airport and jumped up and down waving at me when she first saw me. She was a good hostess while I was there.

I think I'm a lot more in tune now with what I seek from a FSW and though my skills of analyzing women may not be as good as some I think if I'm able to assess the girl in person and find one with naturally strong chemistry then I won't need to worry to much about analyzing her. I don't feel I can do than from behind a computer screen, it kind of feels like I'm being blindfolded and told to go pick a girl.

I try to act decently in front of a girl and not may an idiot of myself. How exactly you mean with, "the way you talk and act in front of women may turn off the girls you're trying to attract" I don't really know. I mean I don't have the gift of the gab, not even close and I'm no 'in-crowd' type of personality. I talk to the girl as often and as best I can and though not an extrovert type I try not to be too quiet, I can speak up as needed if that's what you mean. 

Even if you initially have good chemistry with a woman and have good conversations, you can still lose her. There needs to be things about you that would make her want to live her life with you. You need to earn respect. On a date, I told a lady that I recently fixed something in the house. She was impressed I could fix a house. She made the comment "It's nice to have a man in the house." You need to convey your talents and skills without bragging. A woman can love you if she doesn't respect you. Chemistry is only necessary for initial attraction. That alone it's not going to get you married. Many here think you're too tight and controlling with money. You will lose respect if that is true. You will continue to lose women regardless of how good a method you use to find them.

[Jumper]

If you are moving there to be an ex pat for awhile,  then as far as women any city would work.
  The reasons then become which city would you function best in and enjoy the most in tgat scenario.

  You arnt bilingual so you're likely to be most comfortable and function best in kiev,  st pete, or Moscow.

I don't think this is a great method unless you plan to integrate into the culture by holding a local job, teaching English etc., in that case it's good.

Otherwise it can easily become a extended stay that could be tedious and not much going on socially.

[BillyB]

as far as women any city would work.
 

Guys, one of them Maxx, reported girls in Georgia are harder to catch. I suspect they don't want to mix genes with outsiders as much as women from other parts of the FSU.

[Trenchcoat]

If you are moving there to be an ex pat for awhile,  then as far as women any city would work.
  The reasons then become which city would you function best in and enjoy the most in tgat scenario.

  You arnt bilingual so you're likely to be most comfortable and function best in kiev,  st pete, or Moscow.

I don't think this is a great method unless you plan to integrate into the culture by holding a local job, teaching English etc., in that case it's good.

Otherwise it can easily become a extended stay that could be tedious and not much going on socially.

Well, I'm thinking off knocking down Kharkiv to my third choice, Kiev wasn't on the list since I've been their twice already and want a different scene. I'm not heavily into the performing arts/classical music and Kiev has a lot of that. Odessa I liked but has dating industry issue a bit and I've already done Odessa. I think I would need a new city to help keep me amused for a while. Tbilisi looks nice but I think the culture might be harder for me to grapple with than Russian culture I get the feeling. At the moment St. Petersburg looks a decent choice, its apparently the 'Gateway to Europe' and is quite English speaking orientated I've heard. I will try to brush up on my Russian a bit by next year but its not my main concern. I will have the money available to sit around and date all day if I like. After all the price of a couple of drinks etc is cheap compared to a clothes shopping spree, lol.

I'm still keeping my options open for other cities or perhaps the idea of moving on from one to another if no decent girls seem forthcoming in a reasonable amount of time. 

[Trenchcoat]

You're trying to catch one girl but you're complaining if a hundred girls want to talk to you? Some guys choose only one or a few girls to communicate with. What are the chances they will find the right woman with the small batch they've allowed themselves?


It costs money to date those girls and dating takes time. The internet is just a tool. You can use this tool to filter out many of the ladies you're not compatible with prior to going over there saving you time and money. By showing up, you increased your chances of getting ladies to go out with you who would've never thought you are worth corresponding with. Women are less likely to pass up a date with a foreigner in town. You would be paying for the date and you won't know until after multiple dates whether or not she grows fond of you. Those ladies have no obligation to be a good hostess to you and take care of you while you're in town. Many of us discovered how much our women liked us based off their actions during our visits. We built a bond before visiting them. My wife met me at the airport and jumped up and down waving at me when she first saw me. She was a good hostess while I was there.



Even if you initially have good chemistry with a woman and have good conversations, you can still lose her. There needs to be things about you that would make her want to live her life with you. You need to earn respect. On a date, I told a lady that I recently fixed something in the house. She was impressed I could fix a house. She made the comment "It's nice to have a man in the house." You need to convey your talents and skills without bragging. A woman can love you if she doesn't respect you. Chemistry is only necessary for initial attraction. That alone it's not going to get you married. Many here think you're too tight and controlling with money. You will lose respect if that is true. You will continue to lose women regardless of how good a method you use to find them.

I would have thought having a guy who has an eye for avoiding financial ruin would be something to respect a man for

I agree with you on so far as the numbers game is concerned but not the method. I would rather deal with it all there. I can message umpteen women and say to the respondents I feel most likely to hit the mark to meet up, Prioritizing the ones that look the best near the front as schedules allow. I can start a few days up to a week before departure so I've got warmed up by the time I'm there. I think since you never know sometimes when a girl with chemistry will show it will just be a case of looking for the type of girl I tend to like and running through them. After all there is no saying if you message hundreds of girls online if you might pass over some with chemistry. So might as well meet them one after another until I turn one up I think.

[Jumper]

As Billy mentioned I wouldn't bother with Georgia. Mainstream FSU culture is different enough,  without adding in the complexity of Georgia.
  You know Georgians stand out in any Ukrainian (or Russian ) city to a local,by many things including accent. The jokes are brutal and none PC as it gets, and that's part of FSU culture as well.

Anyway Kharkov is a university city, so while a lot of younger twenty somethings, and eye candy,   I don't think it holds any more or less women in the age group  you'd be better looking into
 The agencies ,and agency girls, there are about as prolific and  bad as Odessa, all without the beach .

  Dnepropetrovsk is decent sized and   nice,but again if you arnt going to teach English or have a way of integrating quickly it seems a tough way to go.

  St pete would seem more Tourist and English prone, with a lot to do and see.

You've tossed the idea of finding the woman first, so this seems a crap shoot. Heck why not London,  there are bound to be FSU women there?
I think there are  a quarter  million in my local US city ,as example and when single I dated several.

 

[BillyB]

I would have thought having a guy who has an eye for avoiding financial ruin would be something to respect a man for

Giving a family oriented woman the impression that you will take care of family will earn respect. You have to spend money to take care of family. Supplying good food, good clothes, good home, and good schools for the kids and wife will earn you respect. If supplying anything good for the family creates financial ruin for you, then you need to work harder. If you don't want to work hard, come to America. I seen profiles of women saying they are looking for a man with tattoos and piercings. They have a job to support themselves so the #1 priorities they are looking from a man may not have anything to do with his earning power and ability to support a family.


If you find a good woman and provide her with what she needs, she's not going to you to financial ruin. She will respect the money you earn and spend it wisely. With the last two girls you were with, there seemed to be lack of trust. How do you catch a quality woman? You don't need to be in the top 10% of men but you need to beat most of your competition. You need to be a man in demand and you can't be that man if you are cheap and greedy. Even if you try to hide that initially, women will figure you out. You're not going to change how you are overnight so it's best to make changes now.

[Trenchcoat]

As Billy mentioned I wouldn't bother with Georgia. Mainstream FSU culture is different enough,  without adding in the complexity of Georgia.
  You know Georgians stand out in any Ukrainian (or Russian ) city to a local,by many things including accent. The jokes are brutal and none PC as it gets, and that's part of FSU culture as well.

Anyway Kharkov is a university city, so while a lot of younger twenty somethings, and eye candy,   I don't think it holds any more or less women in the age group  you'd be better looking into
The agencies ,and agency girls, there are about as prolific and  bad as Odessa, all without the beach .

  Dnepropetrovsk is decent sized and   nice,but again if you arnt going to teach English or have a way of integrating quickly it seems a tough way to go.

  St pete would seem more Tourist and English prone, with a lot to do and see.

You've tossed the idea of finding the woman first, so this seems a crap shoot. Heck why not London,  there are bound to be FSU women there?
I think there are  a quarter  million in my local US city ,as example and when single I dated several.

Thanks Jumper, handy to know, I think Ukraine can be difficult for avoiding the worser aspects of the FSU dating scene.

I think I'll look into idea of St. Petersburg as the initial city to look at. Originally about 18  months ago it was the city I was going to visit first but then got sidetracked into visiting the girl rather than the city (mainly because I did not hide my profile and was a bit scattergun in approach). I think for someone like me that might be their a while its a better bet. I might try to learn the language a bit better and look into the foreign teaching more. I think due to visa costs and political situation they don't find it as easy to get English Language Teachers as they used to so my luck my be in if I can find somewhere a bit easy going to get into.

The London/UK scene with FSW dating, there are an odd few, never really tried a lot on that front as there are limited women of those X amount here that get on dating sites. Plus I think I'm up against a lot of the problems that exist with trying to date here and that has never worked out for me, the competition, girl's expectations, etc. I mean I'm a decent guy, I'm not balding & fat, etc but competition like I say is fierce and coming of second best is as bad as coming of third, fourth ,fifth, etc best. In FSU way more women to chose from and if I get the right woman & we get comfortable with each other then all could be good back in the UK.

[Trenchcoat]

Giving a family oriented woman the impression that you will take care of family will earn respect. You have to spend money to take care of family. Supplying good food, good clothes, good home, and good schools for the kids and wife will earn you respect. If supplying anything good for the family creates financial ruin for you, then you need to work harder. If you don't want to work hard, come to America. I seen profiles of women saying they are looking for a man with tattoos and piercings. They have a job to support themselves so the #1 priorities they are looking from a man may not have anything to do with his earning power and ability to support a family.


If you find a good woman and provide her with what she needs, she's not going to you to financial ruin. She will respect the money you earn and spend it wisely. With the last two girls you were with, there seemed to be lack of trust. How do you catch a quality woman? You don't need to be in the top 10% of men but you need to beat most of your competition. You need to be a man in demand and you can't be that man if you are cheap and greedy. Even if you try to hide that initially, women will figure you out. You're not going to change how you are overnight so it's best to make changes now.

That's what the girl I was with said, yeah I'll just work all the time, lol. Seriously though I think I've found a way I can make more money than at present and will do in the future.

A girl doesn't have to be real frugal that I'm with but also not real spend happy so a happy medium would be good. I think I could probably get a more cautious shopper than the girl I was with. I see what you mean though, most of the burden, well pretty much all of it in FSU culture tends to be on the man providing everything. So I need to prepare well for this and things will improve on this front. I'm also quite heavily into DIY so bringing this up like you mention could be worth me remembering, many thanks

[Trenchcoat]

Well just to update to all, been looking into St. Pete's this afternoon, as I thought on the visa front its a bit limited. I can only do a month on a tourist visa. I can get 3 months on a work visa though the only way I can think that would be feasible is to be a teacher of English. I certainly don't want to do a full time teaching job there so would have to look into part time work, I'm guessing for US citizens its easier than UK as Bounder on here moved to Moscow. A month is okay but really want at least 3 months to get to know girl & move in together in a domestic type of relationship.Will have to think about this some more.

BillyB been thinking what you've been saying about a girl respecting you in a relationship and I think you're dead right. If a girl thinks she can take liberties then she won't respect you and all is lost. So if I come across as weak, easily taken or not enough ability to provide on a continuous basis then that could be a problem. Also dependent on girl being into me and type of girl she is I think as some girls are more predatory and some needing more protection.

[Nightwish]

Well just to update to all, been looking into St. Pete's this afternoon, as I thought on the visa front its a bit limited. I can only do a month on a tourist visa. I can get 3 months on a work visa though the only way I can think that would be feasible is to be a teacher of English. I certainly don't want to do a full time teaching job there so would have to look into part time work, I'm guessing for US citizens its easier than UK as Bounder on here moved to Moscow. A month is okay but really want at least 3 months to get to know girl & move in together in a domestic type of relationship.Will have to think about this some more.

BillyB been thinking what you've been saying about a girl respecting you in a relationship and I think you're dead right. If a girl thinks she can take liberties then she won't respect you and all is lost. So if I come across as weak, easily taken or not enough ability to provide on a continuous basis then that could be a problem. Also dependent on girl being into me and type of girl she is I think as some girls are more predatory and some needing more protection.

So your not going to do any pre-screening but put boots on the ground in a country where you don't understand the culture, not the language, and certainly not the girls - at all - and hope to meet up with the future mrs Trench, all this in 3 months AND be living together...  like the first girl you will approach on the day you land will be the future mrs Trench   

Did someone mention delirious?

[JayH]

Did someone mention delirious?

Or hilarious?
The scope of the ridiculous is breathtaking!
But hey-- we called it on this guy months -many months ago -- and all he has ever done since is confirm !!

[BillyB]

That's what the girl I was with said, yeah I'll just work all the time, lol.

Most girls won't tell you what your responsibilities are. They want a mature man and if you don't know your responsibilities at your age, they'll consider you immature and they'll dump you. Some girls may try to help you with advice so that you'll improve and other girls will manipulate you so that you'll work harder to buy them luxury items. You need to figure out the difference between girls when they give you the same advice. Most girls, when dating you, won't give you advice and just allow you to be who you are so that you hang yourself when you expose your flaws. It takes a lot of work to earn a lady's respect. It only takes one mistake to screw it all up. Figure out how to be the guy that doesn't make any major mistakes.

[Boethius]

Thanks Jumper, handy to know, I think Ukraine can be difficult for avoiding the worser aspects of the FSU dating scene.

I doubt rather highly there is a signficant difference between Ukraine and Russia.  The only difference is if you are dealing with agencies.

I think I'll look into idea of St. Petersburg as the initial city to look at. Originally about 18  months ago it was the city I was going to visit first but then got sidetracked into visiting the girl rather than the city (mainly because I did not hide my profile and was a bit scattergun in approach). I think for someone like me that might be their a while its a better bet. I might try to learn the language a bit better and look into the foreign teaching more. I think due to visa costs and political situation they don't find it as easy to get English Language Teachers as they used to so my luck my be in if I can find somewhere a bit easy going to get into.

You consistently use "your" rather than the correct "you're" as but one example of your inadequate language skills in your mother tongue.  Do you wish to inflict that faulty use of language on paying customers?

I mean I'm a decent guy, I'm not balding & fat, etc but competition like I say is fierce and coming of second best is as bad as coming of third, fourth ,fifth, etc best. In FSU way more women to chose from and if I get the right woman & we get comfortable with each other then all could be good back in the UK.

No matter where you go, you are you.  If you can't make it with UK women, chances are you're not going to make it long term with an FSUW.

[Boethius]

BillyB been thinking what you've been saying about a girl respecting you in a relationship and I think you're dead right. If a girl thinks she can take liberties then she won't respect you and all is lost. So if I come across as weak, easily taken or not enough ability to provide on a continuous basis then that could be a problem. Also dependent on girl being into me and type of girl she is I think as some girls are more predatory and some needing more protection.

That's actually a really stupid piece of advice.  You have to be who you are.  You can't "be" anyone else. 

[mhr7]

Guys, one of them Maxx, reported girls in Georgia are harder to catch. I suspect they don't want to mix genes with outsiders as much as women from other parts of the FSU.

?????

Georgian women couldn't care less about "gene mixing". They have no problems with dating foreign men.

It takes a lot of work to earn a lady's respect. It only takes one mistake to screw it all up. Figure out how to be the guy that doesn't make any major mistakes.

You must date some very unforgiving women.