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RWD Discussion Groups => Odds and Ends => Topic started by: jone on April 05, 2020, 02:15:29 PM

Title: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 05, 2020, 02:15:29 PM
Well,

I think we are going to get here sooner or later.   China has done too many things - lied about too many things - to escape unharmed.   Tell us what your thoughts are as you look in the refrigerator wondering if you go to the store you might catch Corona (and not the amber colored stuff).
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 05, 2020, 05:23:06 PM
That's a huge IF starting your thread title.

I very much doubt it will be proven because China's autocratic government will never allow the necessary investigation.   

I voted  for your "boycott" option yet I don't think an embargo is advisable, based on the 1940 experience with Japan.  Instead I  could see  the G20 reducing itself to 19 and  standing united to wean itself eventually from China's manufacturing teat.   This action might compel China to allow the necessary investigation, yet I doubt it.   

Assuming China's degree of pandemic culpability is limited to withholding information, this weaning still makes sense for three reasons:

      1)  China has proven  to be unreliable link in the supply chain.
      2)  We have found ourselves too dependent upon China for goods important to our security (e. g., pharmaceuticals).
      3)  Jobs.

I trust everyone realizes that if we wean ourselves from China, the prices we pay for "stuff" will increase. 

Maybe more people will now subscribe to Trump's policies regarding trade with China.     
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 05, 2020, 06:00:30 PM
Assuming China's degree of pandemic culpability is limited to withholding information, this weaning still makes sense for three reasons:

      1)  China has proven  to be unreliable link in the supply chain.
      2)  We have found ourselves too dependent upon China for goods important to our security (e. g., pharmaceuticals).
      3)  Jobs.

I trust everyone realizes that if we wean ourselves from China, the prices we pay for "stuff" will increase. 

Maybe more people will now subscribe to Trump's policies regarding trade with China.   

As I have stated before, I am willing to pay more.

What was really startling to me was when I read that something like 90% of our drugs were outsourced to be made in China.

That is totally ridiculous and a certain threat to us.

Of course they can really cause us havoc when we try to reduce that %.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 05, 2020, 08:47:43 PM
As we are all starting to figure out, we're all in this together.   And, as time goes on, we will want to know the whole truth.   Not just part of the truth.  Or the spoon fed truth.   Or the disinformation truth.   No, we will not just want that truth.   We will demand it.

This is not just some plane being shot out of the sky by some macho bully with a Buk.   This is a whole nation that has been (and is being) abused by its own government.   And when it gets out about the suppression of the truth - which is too important to the world not to know - there will be anti-China campaigns.   Anti-Chinese products.   China's economy is going down the shitter.   And everyone in the Communist Party in China knows this and has no idea about what to do about it.   

This week, the Dr. from Woohan Central Hospital, who blew the whistle on the plague?   He died a couple of weeks ago.   China is now trying to make a Martyr out of him.   But they can't say that it was the government who was trying to suppress him.   Only that Police Departments didn't understand what he was trying to communicate.

No, China will pay a HUGE price for the continued lies that they spew out.   If they think their economy has fallen now, wait until the common citizens of the world figure out what China unleashed on its own people and the rest of the world.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: calmissile on April 05, 2020, 08:52:07 PM
I have my doubts.  I have a feeling Europe will deal with the lowest bidder no matter what.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 05, 2020, 08:53:45 PM
What would happen if a website popped up that began listing alternatives to Chinese products?   Instead of the One-China policy, it would be the No-China policy.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 05, 2020, 09:05:16 PM

This is not just some plane being shot out of the sky by some macho bully with a Buk.   This is a whole nation that has been (and is being) abused by its own government.   And when it gets out about the suppression of the truth - which is too important to the world not to know - there will be anti-China campaigns.   Anti-Chinese products.   China's economy is going down the shitter.   And everyone in the Communist Party in China knows this and has no idea about what to do about it.   
Commenting on 'everyone in the communist's party's feelings' as if you can read minds.   This sounds like another effort to derail an American competitor that is beating us.   If we want to make our own products that sounds good to me, lets just see if we are willing to do that.  The whining about the abuse is just a political stunt to try to weaken China because they can compete so well against the USA.  If we are so great, why aren't we making our own products?  Why do we have to rely on the Chinese to do our dirty work?   Sounds like we need to let another 10-20 million illegals in so they can do the work here within the borders of the good old USA, without have the benefit of being a citizen or voting!   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: calmissile on April 05, 2020, 09:05:34 PM
Your dreaming!   Fact of the matter is that we (and probably anyone else) can't manufacture and sell goods as cheap as China has been doing.

Case in point from my personal experience....  We in the USA have practically been forced to buy machine tools and tooling from China for many years.   There are very few USA companies that even make it anymore.  At one time the US and a few European countries made the best tooling and measurement tools in the world.

Go into most any USA factory or machine shop and you will find most tooling and instruments have been replaced with Chinese products.  What few USA companies remain, the price is often 5-10X the cost.

The same is true of electronic instruments and probably robots, etc.  We once had the best and largest test equipment companies such as Tektronix and Hewlet Packard.  What little they offer now is so much more expensive than the acceptable quality of Chinese units, the USA companies are struggling to survive.  If it wasn't for the US government and it's contractors I don't think they could survive.

I won't even mention consumer electronics.  The public can see the price differences for themselves, assuming that the USA even makes the same goods anymore.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 05, 2020, 09:09:03 PM
Two books that I read back in the 90s immediately come to mind.    Both by Clancy.

The first was Debt of Honor.   It begins with Japanese unfair trade practices and what the American citizenry did with Japanese products once it came out that Japan, through monopolizing its car industry, put Americans at risk.   

According to Clancy, the anger would be so high that the country would be swept with an Anti-Japanese bias and all American companies had to switch their supply chains.   (It did not end well for the US as the Capital was attacked by an insane Japanese airline pilot who flew his jet into a joint session of congress, killing everyone.   -- and if tacticians are correct, this book served as the basis for 911.)

The second Clancy Book that comes to mind is 'The Bear and the Dragon'.   In that book, the Chinese Central Committee is so out of touch with the populace that the young generation eventually have to swarm the government and take over.

These types of scenarios are going through every Central Committee members' heads right now.   How they act over then next few months will determine their outcome.   But there is some tough sledding up ahead.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: calmissile on April 05, 2020, 09:12:12 PM
BTW, I agree that we should be manufacturing our own products, it cannot happen overnight.  It was years for the Japanese and then the follow-on countries to improve their quality to where USA consumers would purchase it over USA products.  It's taken 40 years for us to loose our manufacturing base and we do not have the talent or infrastructure to turn the spigot back on in a short period of time.

Nevertheless, we should begin the process.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 05, 2020, 09:48:34 PM
Commenting on 'everyone in the communist's party's feelings' as if you can read minds.   This sounds like another effort to derail an American competitor that is beating us.   If we want to make our own products that sounds good to me, lets just see if we are willing to do that.  The whining about the abuse is just a political stunt to try to weaken China because they can compete so well against the USA.  If we are so great, why aren't we making our own products?  Why do we have to rely on the Chinese to do our dirty work?   Sounds like we need to let another 10-20 million illegals in so they can do the work here within the borders of the good old USA, without have the benefit of being a citizen or voting!   

Fathertime!

There are very few times that I actually take the time to respond to you.   Probably 10 times in the last two years  - even with the untold number of times you've attacked me.

However, my perspective does not come from where the Americans are.   Mine are coming from what the Chinese think about their own government.   Your limited perspective does not allow you to see that raising the standard of living for the Chinese is partly political.   

There are a number of workable government models.   Some are bordering on the Central Committee concept in place now.   But anyone who has actually read about Chinese politics will tell you that it is an autocratic society with whole segments of the government run by a single man who can almost never be fired.   Such a perspective is antiquated.   And the current crisis just put a microscope on it.

I am not of a mind to indulge you this evening.  But your thinking that everything that happens in China is the result of the US trying to influence international relations is just flat out wrong.   While the US is the largest customer, like every sales industry, the deal is made because the buyer wants to buy.   If you offend your buyer, they don't buy from you.

China has now reneged on countless contractual obligations to buy raw materials:   To purchase agricultural products, to partnership up with international pacts.   China is using the 'god' card to nullify those obligations.   What would happen if it came out that the virus was isolated and worked on, prior to its escape into the world, at the virology institute?

Do you not think that the workings of the Chinese government will not be held accountable in all of those relationships?   

For China to succeed, there has to be a transparency.   But China operates the old style communist regime.  It is not at all transparent.   

I am not fear mongering about this.   I am opening conversation about something that will be on everyone's lips in the next few months.   Had China been transparent about this at the onset, the push back would be minimal.   But the entire world knows that China is lying.   And so is that idiot who was leading the WHO.  And to think that China will escape world condemnation and a severe jolt to their economy is bordering on denial.

I realize that this is a long shot prediction.   But I predict the fall of the current Chinese power structure over this.  How it will re-form is anyone's guess.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 05, 2020, 10:03:41 PM
  Fact of the matter is that we (and probably anyone else) can't manufacture and sell goods as cheap as China has been doing.


If enough people boycott Chinese products, manufactures would move their factories to other Asian nations or may look to Central or South America.

the entire world knows that China is lying.   


China didn't let experts from WHO and the CDC in to investigate the situation and look for the source of the virus. Without hard evidence, nations can't prosecute China in an international court.

But I predict the fall of the current Chinese power structure over this.  How it will re-form is anyone's guess.   


Who is going to remove the Communist government in China? What nations are going to go to war over this? How can civilians fight an army with sticks? China already got many of it's people to believe America planted the virus on them. Those brainwashed people are willing to fight alongside their Army, not against them.

A top Chinese official had proposed gratitude education so that people may properly thank their government's handling of the virus.

http://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-wuhan-official-gratitude-education-citizens-thank-government-2020-3

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 05, 2020, 10:18:28 PM
  But I predict the fall of the current Chinese power structure over this.  How it will re-form is anyone's guess.
Remember when those times when you predicted that Russia was going to collapse?  It is all wishful thinking on your part. 

There are very few times that I actually take the time to respond to you.   Probably 10 times in the last two years  - even with the untold number of times you've attacked me.

However, my perspective does not come from where the Americans are.   Mine are coming from what the Chinese think about their own government.   Your limited perspective does not allow you to see that raising the standard of living for the Chinese is partly political.   

There are a number of workable government models.   Some are bordering on the Central Committee concept in place now.   But anyone who has actually read about Chinese politics will tell you that it is an autocratic society with whole segments of the government run by a single man who can almost never be fired.   Such a perspective is antiquated.   And the current crisis just put a microscope on it.

I am not of a mind to indulge you this evening.  But your thinking that everything that happens in China is the result of the US trying to influence international relations is just flat out wrong.   While the US is the largest customer, like every sales industry, the deal is made because the buyer wants to buy.   If you offend your buyer, they don't buy from you.

China has now reneged on countless contractual obligations to buy raw materials:   To purchase agricultural products, to partnership up with international pacts.   China is using the 'god' card to nullify those obligations.   What would happen if it came out that the virus was isolated and worked on, prior to its escape into the world, at the virology institute?

Do you not think that the workings of the Chinese government will not be held accountable in all of those relationships?   

For China to succeed, there has to be a transparency.   But China operates the old style communist regime.  It is not at all transparent.   

I am not fear mongering about this.   I am opening conversation about something that will be on everyone's lips in the next few months.   Had China been transparent about this at the onset, the push back would be minimal.   But the entire world knows that China is lying.   And so is that idiot who was leading the WHO.  And to think that China will escape world condemnation and a severe jolt to their economy is bordering on denial.
 

If you want the US to make it's own goods than advocate for it. It isn't China's fault that we Americans aren't willing to sacrifice to make our own product.   
Most people here only care about the price, trying to get them to care about where it is made is going to be a very difficult task.  I don't really think the US will be able to demonize China enough to change buyers from going for the best priced stuff. 
The talk about how China needs to change it's governance isn't up to us to determine what is 'best' for them.  They were already succeeding, their nation is preparing to overtake the US economy if they haven't already.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 05, 2020, 11:33:46 PM
I have my doubts.  I have a feeling Europe will deal with the lowest bidder no matter what.


Fact of the matter is that we (and probably anyone else) can't manufacture and sell goods as cheap as China has been doing.

I have a feeling that your second post carried more weight, made more sense and was more accurate ..

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 05, 2020, 11:57:07 PM
Why promulgate such rumours and speculation without a whit of evidence?  IIRC genetic manipulation has pretty much been ruled out by those studying the virus.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 06, 2020, 12:01:43 AM
Nevertheless, we should begin the process.

And what, give up capitalism and move towards collectivism?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 06, 2020, 12:06:56 AM
IIRC genetic manipulation has pretty much been ruled out by those studying the virus.


If you read all the articles pertaining to that, they have references and those references point out to Chinese studies done by Chinese medical scientists.

What we do know is there is no animal meat contaminated with the virus on earth. There is no cave of bats, snake pen, or herd of any kind of animals that's ever been detected with the virus. With the amount of lives being lost and trillions of dollars of damage to economies around the world, don't you think we should spend a few billion dollars to fund the largest manhunt in history to locate the animals carrying the virus so we don't have a repeat? Ask China how much time they spent on looking for the animals. They probably spent more time covering up the virus than they did looking for animals.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 06, 2020, 12:13:58 AM
There is no cave of bats, snake pen, or herd of any kind of animals that's ever been detected with the virus.

Call the staff at the Bronx Zoo.  They will tell you otherwise.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 06, 2020, 12:16:00 AM
Call the staff at the Bronx Zoo.  They will tell you otherwise.

There's a pet dog in China that got the virus too. I though we are on the subject of the original animal carrier of the virus. There is no evidence of an animal being the original carrier.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 06, 2020, 12:31:59 AM
There is no evidence of an animal being the original carrier.

So you say...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Maxx2 on April 06, 2020, 03:23:05 AM
Well,

I think we are going to get here sooner or later.   China has done too many things - lied about too many things - to escape unharmed.   Tell us what your thoughts are as you look in the refrigerator wondering if you go to the store you might catch Corona (and not the amber colored stuff).


My father's older brother Walter, Sergeant 1st class, 7th Army division, 31st infantry


(http://live.staticflickr.com/7886/46188159535_26160cf174_z.jpg)


Killed by Chinese communist troops December 5th 1950 at the Chosin Reservoir


China along with the New World Order elite, who set them up, are responsible for his death and the deaths that are occurring now. Those that cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.



Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 06, 2020, 04:06:08 AM
Much as I loved reading Tom Clancy novels, they tended to be very much Historian and Researcher Jack Ryan 'saving the day' from an incompetent President....rather than any overseas enemy))
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 06, 2020, 06:50:03 AM
As we are all starting to figure out, we're all in this together.   And, as time goes on, we will want to know the whole truth.   Not just part of the truth.  Or the spoon fed truth.   Or the disinformation truth.   No, we will not just want that truth.   We will demand it.


MEH, demand all you like, doesn't mean you are going to get it. Likely we'll never know the "truth". There are several conspiracy theories floating around. One being the covid19 was turned loose to cover up other Communist Chinese atrocities on their own people and the use of other bio weapons.

Early on most all of the experts identified covid 19 as man made and originating in a bat. For that virus to jump from a bat (if you know anything about viruses) to a human and become infectious is impossible. Viruses doesn't work that way. Enter WHO and the Chinese commies and it suddenly happened in the wet marketplace in Wuhan. As nasty as that place is, it doesn't happen there either.

Did you know the previous 10 or 12 viruses including SARS, West Nile, Swine, Ebola are all patented? They were developed and mutated in a lab and so was covid-19.

Your questions are for the WHO, the UN and the Chinese government, on where this virus came from, why it was unleashed and more importantly, why it was covered up
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 06, 2020, 07:08:37 AM
Gross negligence - a conscious and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care, which is likely to cause foreseeable grave injury or harm to persons, property, or both.

In December and January, unknown Chinese officials  decided to withhold if not conceal information about COVID-19.  Such is gross negligence in my opinion.  The question is whether these officials were acting on their own or did the decision come from well up the chain of command. 

More damning is that while China was withholding information about COVID-19, it deemed its domestic manufacturers could not meet the future demand for masks,  so China ordered huge numbers from foreign suppliers including the US.

   (http://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/04/02/USAT/f8ad7232-2c42-4dec-b23c-f66bf1523144-PPE-Totals.png)

The number of masks China ordered is much larger than this chart suggests.    In a CNBC interview today, Peter Navarro stated that China customs data show that China in the period January 24 - February 29  imported 2.2 billion medical masks .   I assert such increased imports would require approval from high up in the PRC government.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 06, 2020, 08:22:08 AM
FP

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24251.msg531513#msg531513

Rabies is also a virus that transmits to humans from animals.  Although reports of such are rare, human to human transmission seems to also be possible.  Even bats can develop rabies.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 06, 2020, 08:52:17 AM
Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory..

This reminds me the same antics Democrats had been plaguing our country with for years now. Prosecute despite absence of proof and evidence. If not, create one.

….What we do know is there is no animal meat contaminated with the virus on earth. There is no cave of bats, snake pen, or herd of any kind of animals that's ever been detected with the virus....

Quote
Coronaviruses (CoV) are found in a wide variety of animals in which they can cause respiratory, enteric, hepatic, and neurological diseases of varying severity. As a result of the unique mechanism of viral replication, CoV have a high frequency of recombination (1). Their tendency for recombination and high mutation rates may allow them to adapt to new hosts and ecological niches. Among CoV that infect humans, including human CoV 229E (HCoV-229E), human CoV OC43 (HCoV-OC43), severe acute respiratory syndrome CoV (SARS-CoV), human CoV NL63 (HCoV-NL63), and CoV HKU1 (CoV-HKU1), SARS-CoV causes the most severe disease, with >700 fatalities reported since the SARS epidemic in 2003 (2-8).

Citation here (http://www.pnas.org/content/102/39/14040)

This originated in China. Period. Beyond that, unless anyone can come up with irrefutable proof one way or another, it's just silly.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 06, 2020, 09:47:58 AM
FP

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24251.msg531513#msg531513

Rabies is also a virus that transmits to humans from animals.  Although reports of such are rare, human to human transmission seems to also be possible.  Even bats can develop rabies.

I read cals link as well. Which came after the WHO's cover up efforts with China. Just part of my DNA is to question who  where what why and how. For patient zero of the covid he would likely had to have carried the bat virus for a very long time years in fact for it to adjust to 1) using a human as a host and 2) to become infectious for human to human transmission. Rabies isn't covid. Related I presume but not airborn
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 06, 2020, 10:08:47 AM
Was just remembering a couple of months ago where the Iranians were trying to find a way to cover up that they had shot down an airliner.   They couldn't because too many people were in the know.

We all took one look at the damage and that was enough to know already who had shot down the airliner.

I can assure you that there is a lot more known, presently, than is being shared with the public about this virus.  But the first job that our country has is to get the virus under control.  Then figure out what to do about it.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 06, 2020, 10:13:01 AM
Was just remembering a couple of months ago where the Iranians were trying to find a way to cover up that they had shot down an airliner.   They couldn't because too many people were in the know.

We all took one look at the damage and that was enough to know already who had shot down the airliner.

I can assure you that there is a lot more known, presently, than is being shared with the public about this virus.  But the first job that our country has is to get the virus under control.  Then figure out what to do about it.

Oh there is a lot known by both the Chinese and the United Nations. That doesn't mean we'll ever know
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Boethius on April 06, 2020, 12:23:51 PM
Last week, I heard an interview on CBC with a microbiologist.  He was asked if COVID-19 could have been developed in a laboratory.  He said no.  He explained that viruses often jump from animal hosts to humans, and that the genetic code of COVID-19 proves it was not created in a laboratory.  He also said he's been asked, in the past, to create viruses (which he's refused), but that one thing that he would put into a created virus (he refused to say what) is not in COVID-19, and that is definitive proof the virus was not created in a lab.  He also explained that based on the genetic code of the virus, it did not jump directly from a bat to humans.  Bats were the original carriers, the virus likely jumped to another animal (speculation is snakes and one other animal, can't recall which he said), and from that animal, to a human host.

There is another theory, that Chinese researchers accidently released the virus through blood on their clothing, but I think that is far fetched.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 06, 2020, 02:17:46 PM
What I read ... and it seems so distant now, but was at the end of last week, was that one of the viruses that the Chinese were studying was the Corona Virus.  That they had it isolated in their laboratory.   All it would have taken was one microbe to wind up on a lab technician's jacket or gloves and the damage was done.

So, I don't think I've seen any theory that this is/was bio-engineered.

 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 06, 2020, 04:24:21 PM
Citation here (http://www.pnas.org/content/102/39/14040)

This originated in China. Period. Beyond that, unless anyone can come up with irrefutable proof one way or another, it's just silly.


In the past, coronaviruses were found in animals. In the effort to stop epidemics, the source was found. It's important to find the source and eliminate it so we don't have a repeat. So far this new coronavirus was never traced to an animal. The source was never found. China wants us to believe that it come from a meat market without offering proof. It is silly to believe what they say because so far, everything has been lies.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 06, 2020, 04:28:32 PM
So, I don't think I've seen any theory that this is/was bio-engineered.


Man made things aren't always bio-engineered. A virus can be used in test subjects such as animals or humans which allow the virus to evolved naturally. Some viruses may evolve to be less deadly while others develop extremely dangerous characteristics like the one we are seeing. That is the kind of virus that would be good for biological warfare only if there is a cure available for the army that would release it upon their enemies.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 06, 2020, 10:45:49 PM
There goes Silly BillyB trying to prove he doesn't understand viruses.

It is my  understanding for a Microbiologist to know if a virus has been manipulated...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 06, 2020, 11:20:40 PM
It is my  understanding for a Microbiologist to know if a virus has been manipulated...


You have very little understanding of anything. The main argument people have is the virus came from a lab that is 280m or 900ft from the meat market that is getting blamed. Regardless if you read Chinese research that says it's not man made, the virus can still be in the lab for research and development purposes.

A virus doesn't have to be manipulated to become deadlier. We can assist the virus in it's evolution. A virus can be injected in a bunch of hosts until it mutates. If the virus becomes less dangerous, it's discarded. If it becomes more dangerous, the new more dangerous version will be injected into a lot of host hoping for a mutation that makes the virus even more dangerous. There are more than one way to make a bio weapon.

Would China experiment bio weapons on humans? People aren't worth much in China. If you show up with $50,000 and want to buy a kidney, you will get one quickly.

With the amount of hosts we have worldwide, at least 8 strains of the coronavirus have developed in human bodies. If a vaccine is found, it may handle all minor mutations but if the virus mutates too much, then we are in big trouble since another vaccine will be needed.

http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/491056-at-least-8-strains-of-the-coronavirus-have-been

Bill Gates is spending billions to build facilities to manufacture vaccines should one be found. By doing this he will save months making getting a vaccine out to people quicker.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bill-gates-coronavirus-vaccine-152251369.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 07, 2020, 01:20:44 AM
You have very little understanding of anything. The main argument people have is the virus came from a lab that is 280m or 900ft from the meat market that is getting blamed.

I understand there is no argument - only in some folks bored minds .. mainly north Americans ...  'Suing'  China ..?  :wallbash:

You might as well expect the US, Russia or China to sign up to the International Criminal Court



Now BillyB does his normal trick of proving he hasn't read what he thinks he's responding to ... bearing in mind *I* said it is not hard to spot a virus that has been 'altered by man'


A virus doesn't have to be manipulated to become deadlier. We can assist the virus in it's evolution. A virus can be injected in a bunch of hosts until it mutates. If the virus becomes less dangerous, it's discarded. If it becomes more dangerous, the new more dangerous version will be injected into a lot of host hoping for a mutation that makes the virus even more dangerous. There are more than one way to make a bio weapon.

Would China experiment bio weapons on humans? People aren't worth much in China. If you show up with $50,000 and want to buy a kidney, you will get one quickly.

With the amount of hosts we have worldwide, at least 8 strains of the coronavirus have developed in human bodies. If a vaccine is found, it may handle all minor mutations but if the virus mutates too much, then we are in big trouble since another vaccine will be needed.

http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/medical-advances/491056-at-least-8-strains-of-the-coronavirus-have-been

Bill Gates is spending billions to build facilities to manufacture vaccines should one be found. By doing this he will save months making getting a vaccine out to people quicker.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bill-gates-coronavirus-vaccine-152251369.html?.tsrc=bell-brknews

So, BillyB care to address the point *I* made ... ?  NOT the one you decided I'd made .. :popcorn:
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 01:37:14 AM
Just because something is possible, does not mean it is true.

A typical example of Ad Ignorantiam

I could state that a green Martian brought the virus from Mars.  Of course, there is no proof of that but I could argue that because you cannot prove it is not true it must be.

One cannot prove that green Martians do not exist. Maybe they moved to Venus now. Maybe they are just as small as the virus itself and travel on microscopic space ships.. and on and on and on.

Billy's hypothesis has just as much validity as the green Martian hypothesis above.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 07, 2020, 05:24:39 AM
One theory about the origin of COVID 19 and the naming of Patient Zero.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpQFCcSI0pU

My posting this clip does not signify I agree with it.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 07, 2020, 05:52:35 AM
One theory about the origin of COVID 19 and the naming of Patient Zero.


My posting this clip does not signify I agree with it.

It's certainly plausible. The guy did not touch on the WHO "supposed" investigation. I think he's certainly right about the Chinese government but when you add in WHO, corona virus and the United Nations, you definitely have something that stinks to high heaven.

I find it odd that all the experts early on were stating it was a lab mutated virus. How or why nobody knew. After the WHO got involved release after release were claiming it was a natural virus and that information was echoed on the national media and everywhere on the internet. The shit just don't add up
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 07, 2020, 06:06:39 AM
The guy did not touch on the WHO "supposed" investigation. I think he's certainly right about the Chinese government but when you add in WHO, corona virus and the United Nations, you definitely have something that stinks to high heaven.

Sen. Scott of Florida wants a full investigation of WHO.  The US is WHO's largest donor, yet WHO seems to be protecting China.   Did WHO follow its epidemic protocols?

Related to this, yesterday I mentioned  China was hoarding medical supplies (e. g., importing 2+ billion masks) in January and February while withholding information about the true virulence of COVID-19.   In your words, this stinks to high heaven.  Such is attracting more attention among those who want China to be held responsible.  China needs to be punished to assure future new infections in the world are dealt with promptly and responsibly.     
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 07, 2020, 06:24:07 AM
Sen. Scott of Florida wants a full investigation of WHO.  The US is WHO's largest donor, yet WHO seems to be protecting China.   Did WHO follow its epidemic protocols?

Related to this, yesterday I mentioned  China was hoarding medical supplies (e. g., importing 2+ billion masks) in January and February while withholding information about the true virulence of COVID-19.   In your words, this stinks to high heaven.  Such is attracting more attention among those who want China to be held responsible.  China needs to be punished to assure future new infections in the world are dealt with promptly and responsibly.   

Obviously not. We didn't know it at the time and we had no way of know what was coming and "that" is/was suppose to be the purpose and goal of the WHO. Knowing that WHO ignored warning the world of what was happening in China could easily lead one to believe it was intentional and perhaps agenda driven
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2020, 08:03:33 AM
Just because something is possible, does not mean it is true.


Just because you believe China the virus came from a meat market doesn't make it true.

Do large nations have biological weapons programs and do biological research? YES

Does biological research involve animals? YES. I know a guy who help clean up the Hanford nuke site. In some facilities that were abandoned decades ago due to high radiation were dead zoo animals such as giraffes, lions, and elephants. Even America done things to animals to experiment what their bodies can handle.

Bill Gates said this virus behaves like the once in a century pathogen that we've always feared. What are your chances of seeing that pathogen in your lifetime? Once or none. Most people don't live 100 years. How many level 4 bio labs that house the most dangerous pathogens known to man exist in China? Exactly one. What are the chances the most dangerous pathogen this century just happened to be found next door to China's only level 4 laboratory? Why couldn't it have been found in a bat cave? Probably because it never existed in a bat cave.

What do you think BC? The world should give up on locating the source of the virus? We should trust China? If China allowed WHO and the CDC into China early to investigate the virus, people would be less suspicious of them. They made their bed so they should lay in it. While China was lying to the world in January that human to human transmission wasn't possible, they bought PPE from all over the world. They hoarded the PPE that we would eventually need because they knew a long time ago human to human transmission was possible and it would be a matter of time before we all have outbreaks. China has costed Italy in lives and in loss of economy. We don't know when it'll end but you seem fine if nobody investigates China further although there was clear proof of deception and negligence.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 08:50:03 AM
Just because you believe China the virus came from a meat market doesn't make it true.

Billy, there you go again with another argumentum ad ignorantiam

I can take your sentence above and change just the basic words and get:  'Just because you believe the Bible that Christ is the son of God doesn't make it true.'

All I 'know' is that we don't 'know', and that certainly no one here at RWD 'knows'. As of today, the Martian theory is just as valid as any other.  Get it now?

As to possible 'how', there are several plausible ways the virus could have evolved enough as to transmit from some host to human to human, and that so far there is no evidence of genetic manipulation.
 


Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 07, 2020, 09:15:06 AM
Billy, there you go again with another argumentum ad ignorantiam

I can take your sentence above and change just the basic words and get:  'Just because you believe the Bible that Christ is the son of God doesn't make it true.'

All I 'know' is that we don't 'know', and that certainly no one here at RWD 'knows'. As of today, the Martian theory is just as valid as any other.  Get it now?

As to possible 'how', there are several plausible ways the virus could have evolved enough as to transmit from some host to human to human, and that so far there is no evidence of genetic manipulation.

BC,

You are willingly neglecting outstanding evidence in that Billy is right that the only developmental virology lab is close (or next to) the live food market and is the only place in China where there might be a leak of the strain.   Couple with that is the (now denied) admission that China was working with the strain at the time of the outbreak.

So, add to your theory that Martian space ships were found in China and that there was evidence that the martians were shopping at the live food market.   Now your theory is just as plausible that the martians brought the pathogen to earth.   

I am not saying that the pathogen was leaked from the lab.   What I am saying is that if it was, and it gets out that it was, and that China covered it up, there will be hell to pay.   

The simple fact is that you don't bring the world to its knees and walk away from it.   We have about two months until the world shouts as one that it needs answers.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Belvis on April 07, 2020, 09:17:05 AM
Such is attracting more attention among those who want China to be held responsible.  China needs to be punished to assure future new infections in the world are dealt with promptly and responsibly.   
Why don't you put more efforts to develop better capability to fight infectious diseases instead of to blame China? Otherwise  USA must  take responsibility for the 1918 flu pandemic (Spanish flu), which originated in Kansas according to some researchers.
By the way, USA were claimed by Global Health Security Index to be the best prepared for rapid response to and mitigation of the spread of an epidemics. First two positions in this rating were taken by USA and United Kingdom. China was 51st,
Russia was 63d.
Spain and South Korea share 12 and 13th places ( 4.  SUFFICIENT & ROBUST HEALTH SYSTEM TO TREAT THE SICK & PROTECT HEALTH WORKERS), but what an  enormous disparity in mortality rate from coronavirus between them.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 07, 2020, 09:28:38 AM
Why don't you put more efforts to develop better capability to fight infectious diseases instead of to blame China? Otherwise  USA must  take responsibility for the 1918 flu pandemic (Spanish flu), which originated in Kansas according to some researchers.
By the way, USA were claimed by Global Health Security Index to be the best prepared for rapid response to and mitigation of the spread of an epidemics. First two positions in this rating were taken by USA and United Kingdom. China was 51st,
Russia was 63d.
Spain and South Korea share 12 and 13th places ( 4.  SUFFICIENT & ROBUST HEALTH SYSTEM TO TREAT THE SICK & PROTECT HEALTH WORKERS), but what an  enormous disparity in mortality rate from coronavirus between them.

This post is stating exactly absolutely nothing. What is it you are trying to say? The Global Health Security Index is wrong?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 09:43:20 AM
BC,

You are willingly neglecting outstanding evidence in that Billy is right that the only developmental virology lab is close (or next to) the live food market and is the only place in China where there might be a leak of the strain.   Couple with that is the (now denied) admission that China was working with the strain at the time of the outbreak.

So, add to your theory that Martian space ships were found in China and that there was evidence that the martians were shopping at the live food market.   Now your theory is just as plausible that the martians brought the pathogen to earth.   

I am not saying that the pathogen was leaked from the lab.   What I am saying is that if it was, and it gets out that it was, and that China covered it up, there will be hell to pay.   

The simple fact is that you don't bring the world to its knees and walk away from it.   We have about two months until the world shouts as one that it needs answers.

Jone,

In more or fewer words, we both agree.  I did not neglect the lab.. If it is there it is there.

When discussing causality for any subject, my wife often quips back "Anything is possible".. and guess what she is always right  :devil:
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 07, 2020, 10:02:10 AM
Jone,

In more or fewer words, we both agree.  I did not neglect the lab.. If it is there it is there.

When discussing causality for any subject, my wife often quips back "Anything is possible".. and guess what she is always right  :devil:

BC,

You have learned the most important lesson in life and I salute you!   Your wife is always right.   :D
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 10:11:32 AM
Indeed jone!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 07, 2020, 10:12:23 AM
but what an  enormous disparity in mortality rate from coronavirus between them.

You are forgetting again and focusing on what the various governments are telling regarding the numbers.

Regardless of what you think of USA people and USA government . . . you are surely aware that in our Free Press system . . . everything will come out.

This is not true in many (most) of the other countries of the world and in particular China, Russia, N Korea and authoritarian regimes in particular.

With this in mind . . . the USA numbers are likely to look very bad compared to many other countries.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 07, 2020, 10:17:23 AM
We should have a thread on this forum that details the number of countries that are downplaying the infection numbers and discuss the reasons for their duplicity. 

Was it Stalin who said:  "If one dies its a tragedy.   If a million die its a statistic."

The US may be many things, some of them not pretty.   But I get the sense that we are trying to get our numbers right for deaths and infected. 

Then you look at various countries and it is very apparent that the country is intentionally downplaying the epidemic for reasons known only to them.

So there is China, sitting smug, claiming that the number of cases from ground zero were an order of number smaller than other countries with a lesser population density and or population.   And the countries are struggling with the number of deaths that its population has to endure.   

So, yeah, it rankles.

Talked to a friend in Yaketerinburg yesterday.   She says that everyone in her city are wearing masks and, still, there are infections.   She claims that there are more infections in her city than is being reported in all of Russia.  Go figure.

I don't know what advantage lying about the infection numbers buys a country .... with the possible exception of China.   China knows that it misled the world.   What seems never to sink in to these Central Committee Members is that the Western World gets pretty pissed off when it has been lied to and deaths result from those lies.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 10:54:15 AM
jone,

In the end, the data will allow statisticians to apply correlations with events and identify anomalies. Questions will surely arise, be investigated and conclusions drawn.  Posted in another thread, but an example the attached graphic showing (until now) similarities and differences between Italy and the US.

the steeper initial slope in the US data could well be due to initial problems with testing, a portion might be missing.  On the Italian graph, I can almost imagine the peaks and lulls or waves if you will, 1 2 3 being caused by stepped up restrictions and those that fled to faraway homes right before the main national lockdown date

I do find it a bit concerning that no notable waves have appeared yet in US data so we really don't know yet which way we're trending. The beginning of one may be starting but might just be a weekend lul. Very similar to stock chart analysis with events delayed.  Let's hope that somehow we arrived at 3.

We'll certainly know more in the future, but for now, what I can say with a decent amount of certainty is that this bug is very persistent and tenacious.

Stay home, stay safe.
 

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2020, 11:34:51 AM
All I 'know' is that we don't 'know', and that certainly no one here at RWD 'knows'. As of today, the Martian theory is just as valid as any other.  Get it now?


There are a lot of people in the world that has your attitude and as a result, there may not be enough unified worldwide support to investigate China because you're okay with not knowing the truth. Not once have you agreed there should be an investigation and punishment if China is guilty. Are you happy with the investment and tourism China brings to Italy and don't want to see it go away?

If a person kills a cop, there will be an army of cops searching for the cop killer because they can't allow a person like that to run loose. There should be an army of people looking for virus infected animals so we don't have a repeat. If China allowed an army of scientists and investigators in their country to help look for the source of the virus, there wouldn't be so much suspicion and backlash against them. If they were truly innocent it would benefit them to allow other nations experts in their country to investigate. The only reason I can see for them not wanting the world to help them is they don't want the world to learn the truth.

Although nations have differences, we're all in this together. Whether humanity is threatened by a meteor or virus, we need accurate data and cooperation in defeating whatever threatens humanity. At every step of the way China lied jeopardizing our lives and economies and only told the truth when it wasn't possible to lie anymore.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 07, 2020, 11:47:53 AM

Talked to a friend in Yaketerinburg yesterday.   She says that everyone in her city are wearing masks and, still, there are infections.   

Hmm.. today in Yekaterinburg


(http://static.ngs.ru/news/2020/99/preview/bde4c3b5f62cc07c1878166dd46bd9a713ce72142_727_485_c.jpg)

Another link, in case one might think this is exceptional ..

http://www.uralweb.ru/news/medicine/511420-smi-v-sverdlovskoy-oblasti-podtverdilis-eshche-sem-sluchaev-koronavirusa.html
 (http://www.uralweb.ru/news/medicine/511420-smi-v-sverdlovskoy-oblasti-podtverdilis-eshche-sem-sluchaev-koronavirusa.html)

In Krasnodarsky Krai - which has one of the most stringent 'lockdowns' ..about 40 percent are wearing surgical masks 

Clue: Many Russians don't give a ..

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 11:54:46 AM
There are a lot of people in the world that has your attitude and as a result, there may not be enough unified worldwide support to investigate China because you're okay with not knowing the truth. Not once have you agreed there should be an investigation and punishment if China is guilty. Are you happy with the investment and tourism China brings to Italy and don't want to see it go away?

That sounds like a strawman fallacy http://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/#strawman

You don't know how many in the world have my attitude because you don't know what my attitude is in the first place.  Did I ever say I'm ok with not knowing the truth? Did I once disagree there should not be an investigation and punishment if China is guilty?  Did I say I was scared that Italy would lose money from Chinese tourists?

You see.. you spout lots of things I never said without knowing one iota about what I think or not.  It's often called 'putting words into someone's mouth'.  You come to conclusions without ever asking a question.

You'd make a pretty crappy lawyer trying to convince a jury like you do here BillyB. (intentional ad hominem) . http://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/#adhominem
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 07, 2020, 11:55:07 AM
There are a lot of people in the world that has your attitude and as a result, there may not be enough unified worldwide support to investigate China because you're okay with not knowing the truth. Not once have you agreed there should be an investigation and punishment if China is guilty. Are you happy with the investment and tourism China brings to Italy and don't want to see it go away?

If a person kills a cop, there will be an army of cops searching for the cop killer because they can't allow a person like that to run loose. There should be an army of people looking for virus infected animals so we don't have a repeat. If China allowed an army of scientists and investigators in their country to help look for the source of the virus, there wouldn't be so much suspicion and backlash against them. If they were truly innocent it would benefit them to allow other nations experts in their country to investigate. The only reason I can see for them not wanting the world to help them is they don't want the world to learn the truth.

Although nations have differences, we're all in this together. Whether humanity is threatened by a meteor or virus, we need accurate data and cooperation in defeating whatever threatens humanity. At every step of the way China lied jeopardizing our lives and economies and only told the truth when it wasn't possible to lie anymore.

Again.. not defending the Chinese govt in any way.. but if they could 'do' Tiananmen Square with impunity..  WHO is going to 'investigate and prosecute' .. ?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2020, 12:06:02 PM
  Did I ever say I'm ok with not knowing the truth?


You've spent a lot of time debating anybody that has anything to say other than what China told the world and haven't spent any time questioning China but if you want us to believe you're on our side, I don't believe you.

Again.. not defending the Chinese govt in any way.. but if they could 'do' Tiananmen Square with impunity..  WHO is going to 'investigate and prosecute' .. ?


WHO is supposed to protect the world from what just happened and they blew it. The expert medical scientists over there were naďve and believed everything China said, protected China, ignored Taiwan's warnings, and gave bad advice by telling nations they shouldn't close their borders with China. Why are we paying them big bucks for a poor performance? WHO should be investigated and I'm sure Trump will reduce the funding they get. Other nations like China that are happy with WHO's performance can increase funding to WHO.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-hints-at-cutting-who-funding-over-coronavirus-handling-says-they-really-blew-it/ar-BB12h7aJ?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 12:43:39 PM
You've spent a lot of time debating anybody that has anything to say other than what China told the world and haven't spent any time questioning China but if you want us to believe you're on our side, I don't believe you.

I can see why you may think that.  It's called 'shooting the messenger' (ad hominem) which is the basis of the term 'fake news'. Maybe try to address the subject instead along with the facts presented.  Maybe digging a bit deeper into the subject at hand would help.  Evaluate all sources instead of picking the first source that fits your hypothesis.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Boethius on April 07, 2020, 01:11:38 PM
You are forgetting again and focusing on what the various governments are telling regarding the numbers.

Regardless of what you think of USA people and USA government . . . you are surely aware that in our Free Press system . . . everything will come out.

This is not true in many (most) of the other countries of the world and in particular China, Russia, N Korea and authoritarian regimes in particular.

With this in mind . . . the USA numbers are likely to look very bad compared to many other countries.

But you can't say that about Germany, Taiwan, or South Korea, all of which also have had low rates of infection. 

I posted a piece by someone in China.  That was dismissed as propaganda, but the account conforms, almost entirely, with that of a relative living in central China, over 800 km from Wuhan.  In short, China took draconian measures to contain spread of the virus.  They also have a culture of using masks to prevent the spread of viruses.

I think Belvis' main point was about punishing China.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2020, 01:54:27 PM
Maybe try to address the subject instead along with the facts presented.  Maybe digging a bit deeper into the subject at hand would help.  Evaluate all sources instead of picking the first source that fits your hypothesis.

People been addressing the subject that China has presented no facts after they dug deep for info. They evaluated all sources and concluded China is not a reputable source to obtain facts since they present no evidence of their clams. When they post their findings, you shoot the messenger. China would pay you big bucks to be their Western spokesperson. You pretend facts are important and you lack the ability or will to say China did wrong.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 07, 2020, 02:16:24 PM
Any information received by Western sources, at this time, is purely anecdotal.   Intelligence collectors are holding their cards pretty close to their vests.   This thread was started on the premise that 'if the Chinese' were the accidental originators of the virus.... and IF the Chinese covered up their numbers, intentionally ..... and if there is an active disinformation campaign to attempt to hide China from the world's retaliation.   

These are all big ifs.   I have my opinions.   I was exploring the common person's reaction if these things proved to be true.

With how many people have lost their jobs, lost their savings, lost their futures, I can imagine that the amount of push back from the people here in the US would be tremendous.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Boethius on April 07, 2020, 02:20:02 PM
I wouldn't want any form of retaliation unless it were proven the virus was purposely unleashed on the world.  Frankly, I think that is farfetched.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 07, 2020, 02:24:25 PM
My observation is not what I want personally, but what I believe will happen if some Chinese actions caused the spread of the virus and then Chinese actions to hide their activities through disinformation and misdirection.

Frankly, to the members of the Central Committee in China - take warning - your every move is being monitored.  Too many pieces of evidence are available for every interested party - and the parties are very interested.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 07, 2020, 02:29:10 PM
And this is what I was talking about:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-lets-zoom-xi-he-has-questions-to-answer/

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 02:43:25 PM
People been addressing the subject that China has presented no facts after they dug deep for info. They evaluated all sources and concluded China is not a reputable source to obtain facts since they present no evidence of their clams. When they post their findings, you shoot the messenger. China would pay you big bucks to be their Western spokesperson. You pretend facts are important and you lack the ability or will to say China did wrong.

(argumentum ad verecundiam) Here you appeal to people as some authority.  I can agree people can form opinions on what they see and even what they don't see, but just because 'people' see it one way does not make 'people' authoritative.  You can teach a child from birth that the colour blue is red.  Later in life, one child says 'that car is blue' and the other says 'no the car is red'.  They are both right, they will both point to the same colour on a rainbow pattern.  Here the rainbow pattern is what represents truth best.

Here you present nothing that represents the truth accurately to compare our views, no reference point.  I assume you have not read my other posts regarding anomalies that statisticians may discover when this is all over and done with.  That may provide a decent reference point.  Until then my friend, you may be barking up the right or wrong tree.  I'm just going to be patient and not bark my throat raw needlessly.  I don't pretend facts are important, I know they are.  Whether China did wrong or not will be determined by neither you nor I.  Unlike you, I will keep an open mind to all possibilities and won't rely on
Quote
ad hominem
fallacies in futile, last-resort attempts to prove my point.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 02:49:58 PM
And this is what I was talking about:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-lets-zoom-xi-he-has-questions-to-answer/

Is an interesting view jone.

What struck me while I skimmed:

Quote
We now know there were 104 cases of the new disease, including 15 deaths, between December 12 and the end of that month. Why was the official Chinese line on December 31 that there was “no clear evidence” of human-to-human transmission? And why did that official line not change until January 20?

Did the author take into account the typical incubation time of the virus?  Even in cases of salmonella, it can take a bit of time until cases are collected and evaluated to locate the source.

I read some reports that described local Wuhan officials sitting on the facts a bit. After all, 104 deaths among 11 million or so might not be that awful unusual. Probably quite an imposing thing to have to report to Beijing that you FUBAR'd it.  http://www.china-mike.com/chinese-culture/cult-of-face/

To be clear I'm not saying this was the case, but think it's worth throwing it into the basket called 'the realm of possibilities'.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2020, 03:07:36 PM
I assume you have not read my other posts regarding anomalies that statisticians may discover when this is all over and done with. 


Since the beginning when China was the only nation that put out data, I knew it was BS. You're just now noticing something isn't right? We can look at the data right now and conclude the most prosperous nations, with high level education among the population, and have the best health care systems have the highest rate of infections and death which translates to those nations don't know how to handle an epidemic. You trust data? You're never going to get the truth.

  Whether China did wrong or not will be determined by neither you nor I.


They did wrong. I determined it. Some people like yourself  won't want to pursue the truth because you may not like the answer. You're not willing to make China pay which can help motivate them to correct their behavior but others will.


I wouldn't want any form of retaliation unless it were proven the virus was purposely unleashed on the world.  Frankly, I think that is farfetched.


I don't think they let the virus loose on purpose but they were deceptive and negligent in every step of the way handling the virus which cost more lives and ruin economies than it should have. When China has a virus that can be transferred human to human and tells WHO and other nations is safe to travel to their country because the virus can't travel from human to human, they should be charged for the deaths of many people from all over the world.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 07, 2020, 03:16:23 PM
I *think* Egypt did it.  They should pay.


Prove me wrong anyone.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 07, 2020, 03:18:22 PM
It was an opinion piece, BC.

Historically there is some license on opinion pieces.   I don't know what sources were used to create this piece.  My interest is that it represents a trend of thought that I believe will build and infect, just like the virus, until people may become frantic to obtain the truth.

We are in an unfortunate place right now.   Even if it were proven that the Chinese did everything by the WHO book, their system of government does not allow the transparency to provide confidence for the rest of the world.   My take, currently, is that we are in for a very big push back.   Something that could be as dangerous as the virus, itself.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 03:31:00 PM
Since the beginning when China was the only nation that put out data, I knew it was BS. You're just now noticing something isn't right? We can look at the data right now and conclude the most prosperous nations, with high level education among the population, and have the best health care systems have the highest rate of infections and death which translates to those nations don't know how to handle an epidemic. You trust data? You're never going to get the truth.

Do we know if their published infection rate with a draconian lockdown which IIRC was much stricter, harsher and faster, can be correlated with lockdowns of other highly developed nations?  Will be interesting to find out one of these days.  We don't even know yet what the US rate will be.

Quote
They did wrong. I determined it. Some people like yourself  won't want to pursue the truth because you may not like the answer. You're not willing to make China pay which can help motivate them to correct their behavior but others will.

 :ROFL:  Will someone call the WH to come hire this guy?  No further comment necessary.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 07, 2020, 03:32:33 PM
It was an opinion piece, BC.

Yes, understand.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2020, 04:10:06 PM
I *think* Egypt did it.  They should pay.


Prove me wrong anyone.

You're going to have to take that claim up with China. They already said it came from a meat market of theirs.

A Chinese expert spoke in the Jan3  article below. Yuen Kwok-Yung, a microbiologist at the University of Hong Kong.  says "It is highly unlikely that this outbreak will lead to a major [SARS-like] epidemic" I wonder if we can add his statement to the famous last words list?

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/novel-human-virus-pneumonia-cases-linked-seafood-market-china-stir-concern

Do we know if their published infection rate with a draconian lockdown which IIRC was much stricter, harsher and faster, can be correlated with lockdowns of other highly developed nations?  Will be interesting to find out one of these days.  We don't even know yet what the US rate will be.


The type of lockdowns enacted can be reflect on the total number of infections and infection rate. But explain this....China and other Communist nations have a much lower case fatality rate than Wester nations. Do you think citizens of Communist nations have better immunity to the virus?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 07, 2020, 05:19:37 PM
I *think* Egypt did it.  They should pay.


Prove me wrong anyone.

Egypt isn't smart enough and lacks technology, Egypt wasn't there and besides Egypt doesn't even have a dog
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 07, 2020, 08:18:11 PM


The US may be many things, some of them not pretty.   
One small throwaway line just to pretend you are being fair-minded....then conjecturous sonnets all about 'evil' China.   All because they were competitively beating us. 


So there is China, sitting smug, claiming that the number of cases from ground zero were an order of number smaller than other countries with a lesser population density and or population.   And the countries are struggling with the number of deaths that its population has to endure.   

So, yeah, it rankles.

You rankle easily.   

You added that China is sitting 'smugly' just to elicit more hatred towards them.   It makes perfect sense that they didn't suffer as many deaths as you angrily wish they should have.  They sacrificed and locked down a part of their country for 76 days.  We (The USA) haven't locked down for 10 minutes.   The US has decided the economy is more important than saving every life possible.  Perhaps we won't take as big a hit economically because of that decision, but the price will be paid in blood.  Don't pin US decisions on China.  Other countries have also kept their death rate much lower than the USA's.

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 08, 2020, 11:57:13 AM
Nice ad hominem attacks.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 08, 2020, 12:16:01 PM
Would be great if we could move the conversation to a higher plane by using Latin as BC and Jone are doing.

We should have started this ab initio.

And stop the attacks ab irato.

Or, if we do speak ill of someone, then at least append absit iniuria verbis.

For myself, I will repeat what René probably really said: bibo ergo sum
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 08, 2020, 12:56:33 PM
Would be great if we could move the conversation to a higher plane by using Latin as BC and Jone are doing.

We should have started this ab initio.

And stop the attacks ab irato.

Or, if we do speak ill of someone, then at least append absit iniuria verbis.

For myself, I will repeat what René probably really said: bibo ergo sum

Tempest Fugit when you're having fun.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 08, 2020, 02:24:24 PM
Why don't you put more efforts to develop better capability to fight infectious diseases instead of to blame China? Otherwise  USA must  take responsibility for the 1918 flu pandemic (Spanish flu), which originated in Kansas according to some researchers.

I don't blame China for the evolution of the specific virus.   IMO it is unlikely that the virus was purposefully developed in a bio-weapons laboratory and accidentally released.  Instead I feel the virus resulted from mutations within the ecosystem, possibly affected unknowingly by human activity.     

I do blame China for withholding important information that should have been shared immediately with the world.   I blame China for hoarding world supplies of certain medical equipment while not informing the world that the virus is very contagious and will be needing such equipment.  I blame China for not curtailing human movement sooner. 


Quote
By the way, USA were claimed by Global Health Security Index to be the best prepared for rapid response to and mitigation of the spread of an epidemics. First two positions in this rating were taken by USA and United Kingdom. China was 51st, Russia was 63d.

I know, and posted such at RWD some time ago.  Even America at the top had many areas needing improvement, hence a grade of around 82 out of 100, a B- in school marks.   

And we discovered immediately our testing was inadequate, slowing our capability to get control.  For sure the US showed it had excellent ability to mobilize medical resources.  Throughout history America has overcome many challenges due to our ingenuity. 

It will be interesting to see what grades will be given to each nation regarding their responses.  I wonder if the US will make the Top 10.  I expect New Zealand, Singapore and South Korea to grade at the top.  Each of them responded quickly and decisively.   The jury is still out, however.    Much to learn about this pathogen.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 08, 2020, 02:38:23 PM
Consider what this Professor Emeritus points out as to the world's reaction to the virus:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/04/08/how_the_wuhan_virus_will_change_the_world_order_142886.html
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 08, 2020, 02:48:06 PM
And another one:   Typical of what to expect from China:

http://spectator.us/pompeo-china-more-transparent/


Do any of the forum members believe, as I do, that China is more concerned about their economy than they are about solving the virus question?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 08, 2020, 03:18:35 PM
I don't blame China for the evolution of the specific virus.  IMO it is unlikely that the virus was purposefully developed in a bio-weapons laboratory and accidentally released.  Instead I feel the virus resulted from mutations within the ecosystem, possibly affected unknowingly by human activity.     

I do blame China for withholding important information that should have been shared immediately with the world.   I blame China for hoarding world supplies of certain medical equipment while not informing the world that the virus is very contagious and will be needing such equipment.  I blame China for not curtailing human movement sooner. 


To many questions and not near enough answers at this point. I'm not ready to say it wasn't purposely developed and released intentionally. Was it China or was China just a staging area? We do know that the WHO was parroting China's explanation as early as November as righteous and continuing on through January. With such a contagion why did they take it so lightly for so long? The world isn't just dependent on China, it's much more dependent on the WHO
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 08, 2020, 03:18:58 PM
And another one:   Typical of what to expect from China:

http://spectator.us/pompeo-china-more-transparent/


Do any of the forum members believe, as I do, that China is more concerned about their economy than they are about solving the virus question?

Haven't this always been the underlying motto of ant mentality/communism? The whole will always outweigh the sum of its parts.

China never felt it owes the global community any obligation. Especially not after what happened in WW II when it felt abandoned by its overlord for rape and murder. I am not certain why many of you seem so surprised by any of this?

China had always 'abstained' in any UN/global political decisions. China, alone, had long learned to look only after itself. Relying on someone else will be damning.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 08, 2020, 03:30:32 PM

China had always 'abstained' in any UN/global political decisions. China, alone, had long learned to look only after itself. Relying on someone else will be damning.

China in time will become a superpower equivalent to the US.  We need to learn how to live with them peacefully.

The post-pandemic politics will be fluid. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 08, 2020, 03:35:17 PM
Consider what this Professor Emeritus points out as to the world's reaction to the virus:

He wrote something new to me about how the hoarding was not confined to China: 

"Facing potential shortages of medical supplies for their own citizens, some EU nations have erected temporary export barriers. The most shocking was Germany, which chose to block some ventilators and masks from being shipped to Italy, which needed them desperately. (France did the same thing.) Since Germany is both a strong EU supporter and the continent’s biggest economy, its decision is a troubling sign for European integration."

We can not throw stones because I believed we did something similar Canada, even though we have the USMCA treaty. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 08, 2020, 03:44:43 PM
He wrote something new to me about how the hoarding was not confined to China: 

"Facing potential shortages of medical supplies for their own citizens, some EU nations have erected temporary export barriers. The most shocking was Germany, which chose to block some ventilators and masks from being shipped to Italy, which needed them desperately. (France did the same thing.) Since Germany is both a strong EU supporter and the continent’s biggest economy, its decision is a troubling sign for European integration."

We can not throw stones because I believed we did something similar Canada, even though we have the USMCA treaty.

Inadvertently. It's the knee-jerk reaction against 3M. Trudeau stepped right in and changed that pronto. So it never actually happened.

We did however, pirated shipments of PPEs going to EU, and had it shipped to us. Smart :devil:
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 08, 2020, 03:53:20 PM
He wrote something new to me about how the hoarding was not confined to China: 

"Facing potential shortages of medical supplies for their own citizens, some EU nations have erected temporary export barriers. The most shocking was Germany, which chose to block some ventilators and masks from being shipped to Italy, which needed them desperately. (France did the same thing.) Since Germany is both a strong EU supporter and the continent’s biggest economy, its decision is a troubling sign for European integration."

We can not throw stones because I believed we did something similar Canada, even though we have the USMCA treaty.

We shouldn't expect drowning people to be saved by drowning people. Sure Italy was drowning first but I don't blame Germany or France for holding ventilators and PPE for their own people who they have a responsibility to first because they knew eventually they would be drowning themselves.

Trump made calls to see if nations would give America equipment. Putin did. Putin also gave Italy some things. As Russia face their epidemic, some people will question Putin's actions to take care of others before his own citizens. For the politicians of Germany and France, it may have been political suicide to help Italy at the expense of their own citizens.

We did however, pirated shipments of PPEs going to EU, and had it shipped to us. Smart :devil:


Trump said at a briefing pirating did happen but the other way around and he stopped it. I don't blame Europe if they try to cut in line to get products for their people. Politicians, unlike dictators, have to answer to their people or they get voted out.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 05:42:35 AM

Do any of the forum members believe, as I do, that China is more concerned about their economy than they are about solving the virus question?
China walked the walk, shut down for real for 76 days....Trump appears to be choosing economy over virus.  So it appears your assertion isn't valid.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 05:48:37 AM
Nice ad hominem attacks.
You continue to make ridiculous anti-china assertions and while being cruel towards you, those assertions have been challenged.    It appears China isn't doing too bad, and are leading more worldwide than the US to help countries.  They have the capacity to do that, while we in the USA do not.  Currently our own hospitals are severely lacking which is probably leading to even more cases within the hospitals. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 05:53:01 AM
China in time will become a superpower equivalent to the US.  We need to learn how to live with them peacefully.
 
...and that time is probably already here.   How is a 'superpower' defined?  It hasn't been the US way to live peacefully with rivals, but the old ways are no longer working.  China could take us out the same way we could take them out.  They have way more factory capacity than we do.  They can produce products for the world.  We can produce food and weapons. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Belvis on April 09, 2020, 06:14:09 AM
I don't blame China for the evolution of the specific virus.   IMO it is unlikely
I do blame China for withholding important information that should have been shared immediately with the world.   I blame China for hoarding world supplies of certain medical equipment while not informing the world that the virus is very contagious and will be needing such equipment.  I blame China for not curtailing human movement sooner. 

Sorry, but let's get back in January 2020 and look honestly at the position of USA when coronavirus has killed only 9 people in China, i.e. epidemic was in its starting point before spreading over world.
Trump told on 24th Jan.: "We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." By the end of January 170 were dead of coronavirus, and Russia had closed the border with China. Everybody by this time were aware about the coming problem, but the question was how to react.
US administration hoped for the best by the end of January: 
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-51276323
Quote
US commerce secretary Wilbur Ross has said the deadly coronavirus outbreak in China could be positive for the American economy.
I see as flaws and shortcomings of the national healthcare are being tried to use in global  US-China trade war. It does not seem fair to blame China for failures of own politicians.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 09, 2020, 06:24:29 AM
Sorry, but let's get back in January 2020 and look honestly at the position of USA when coronavirus has killed only 9 people in China, i.e. epidemic was in its starting point before spreading over world.
Trump told on 24th Jan.: "We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." By the end of January 170 were dead of coronavirus, and Russia had closed the border with China. Everybody by this time were aware about the coming problem, but the question was how to react.
US administration hoped for the best by the end of January: 
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-51276323I see as flaws and shortcomings of the national healthcare are being tried to use in global  US-China trade war. It does not seem fair to blame China for failures of own politicians.

The caveat here no one seems to highlight is the WHO whom, just prior to Trumps proclamation of "we have it under control"  the WHO announced 10 days earlier that there was no human to human transmission. All the while the Chinese government knew there was a serious problem and likely pandemic. Trump responded at the time to what he knew. It's what he didn't know that was, that the WHO nor China could not be trusted and there was not ample information. China was either a)covering it's ass b) carrying out their agenda and the WHO was complicit in aiding either that cover up or agenda
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 09, 2020, 06:24:39 AM
I was misspoken.   I felt that we wouldn't begin to hear from the American public for one or two months.   Here is an opinon/article from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/04/07/time-put-china-lockdown-dishonesty-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-crisis-column/2954433001/

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 06:44:38 AM
I was misspoken.   I felt that we wouldn't begin to hear from the American public for one or two months.   Here is an opinon/article from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/04/07/time-put-china-lockdown-dishonesty-amid-coronavirus-pandemic-crisis-column/2954433001/
These types of opinion pieces are always around, before the virus, during the virus and will be after the virus.  They will represent a minority opinion, that people such as yourself will attempt to pretend is a majority opinion.  It remains an effort to elevate the US by destroying it's rival.  It may play a bit in the USA although much of the world will see right through it.  Through hard work, China can stand toe to toe with the US and that disturbs some 'patriots' and makes them try to discredit and blame China for our own shortcomings.   If we (The US) are so upset over China, why aren't we working hard and producing our own products?   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 06:50:08 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-51276323I see as flaws and shortcomings of the national healthcare are being tried to use in global  US-China trade war. It does not seem fair to blame China for failures of own politicians.
We in the US will find a way to blame others while it will be our nation that leads the way in deaths soon.  Everybody else is doing things wrong or lying, and we are doing things right, which is why we will lead the world in deaths from the virus.  For the US, as evidenced by a couple posters here,  the focus is on blame as much as anything else.  Why would the richest nation in the world not have enough supplies in hospitals, while other nations have what they need? 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 06:54:27 AM
Trump told on 24th Jan.: "We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." By the end of January 170 were dead of coronavirus, and Russia had closed the border with China. Everybody by this time were aware about the coming problem, but the question was how to react.


Both USA and Russia took action against China in late January. America's infection problem came from Europe, not China. The majority of infections in Russia will also be coming from Europe.



In other news a response to Trump wanting to cut funding from WHO:

“If you don’t want many more body bags you refrain from politicizing it – please quarantine politicizing COVID,” WHO Director Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus told reporters in a lengthy answer when asked about Trump’s criticism of the agency.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/who-director-hits-back-at-trump-threat-to-defund-agency/ar-BB12kO1v?ocid=spartanntp
Title: China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 09, 2020, 07:04:13 AM
Did WHO's China ties slow decision to declare emergency?
http://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Did-WHO-s-China-ties-slow-decision-to-declare-emergency


China Helped Put This Man In Charge Of the World Health Organization—Is It Paying Off?
What does Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus owe to Beijing?

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/china-helped-put-man-charge-world-health-organization%E2%80%94-it-paying-136002



Top WHO Official Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus Won Election With China’s Help. Now He’s Running Interference For China On Coronavirus
http://dailycaller.com/2020/03/22/who-director-general-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus-china-coronavirus-pandemic-cover-up/



China and the WHO's chief: Hold them both accountable for pandemic
http://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic


The WHO and China: Dereliction of Duty
http://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty


The coronavirus crisis is raising questions over China's relationship with the World Health Organization
http://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html


Mission impossible? WHO director fights to prevent a pandemic without offending China
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/mission-impossible-who-director-fights-prevent-pandemic-without-offending-china


WHO and Its Leader Play China’s Puppets on Coronavirus
http://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/who-and-its-leader-play-chinas-puppets-coronavirus



Blaming the WHO and China Is Not Scapegoating
http://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/08/who-china-trump-coronavirus-176242


Dr WHO?
The World Health Organisation launders China’s appalling record

http://www.spectator.com.au/2020/03/dr-who/


Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 09, 2020, 07:43:28 AM
And the response begins to ratchet up:

http://www.dailywire.com/news/ag-barr-the-chinese-are-engaged-in-a-full-court-blitzkrieg-against-the-u-s
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 09, 2020, 08:13:52 AM
And the response begins to ratchet up:

http://www.dailywire.com/news/ag-barr-the-chinese-are-engaged-in-a-full-court-blitzkrieg-against-the-u-s

The timing of the Harvard professor and the two Chinese nationals is highly suspicious. We would be remiss if we thought they were the only ones

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/harvard-university-professor-and-two-chinese-nationals-charged-three-separate-china-related)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 09, 2020, 01:52:14 PM
The last recent years saw approximately 40,000 - 70,000 opioid related deaths/year in the US. Many blames the synthetic drug Fentanyl greatly attributed to the opioid crisis we experienced in this country. Revelation showed, these illegal supply of fentanyl that flooded the US were made and imported from, where else, China.

Quote
I went really deep and tried to learn everything I could about this problem, and that brought me to China. I actually went undercover into a pair of Chinese drug operations, including, I went into a fentanyl lab outside Shanghai. And I was pretending to be a drug dealer. What I learned was that these companies making fentanyl and other dangerous drugs are subsidized by the government. And so when they work in these suburban office parks, for example, the building, the costs for research and development, they have these development zones, they get export tax breaks.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/chinas-role-in-the-us-fentanyl-epidemic-152338423.html

Did we do anything about it? Of course not. Nearly 750,000 Americans dead. Opioid crisis went about its course and business over the last two administrations before this current one did something to stop this problem. Americans barely cared because the media didn't flood our consciousness about this tragic crisis on a daily basis.

Did China get in trouble? NO. So what makes all of you believe they'll get in trouble for an epidemic that so far pales in comparison in terms of fatalities.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 02:24:35 PM

Did China get in trouble? NO. So what makes all of you believe they'll get in trouble for an epidemic that so far pales in comparison in terms of fatalities.

http://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates

Currently COVID-19 is the #1 killer of Americans daily and that is with massive activity or should I say inactivity to keep the deaths from growing exponentially. COVID-19 is going to put the World in a depression. This is not going to get solved soon. The more economies are ruined, deaths mount, and the longer our lives are disrupted, the more backlash China will have to face. If this thing ended tomorrow, China may not get in trouble but deep down, we know we are in a struggle that will last for years. Already all jobs gained during Obama and Trump's years have been wiped out in less than a month. 10+ years of gains lost in a month. Italy has 80 doctors and 20 nurses dead, and 12,000 medical personnel infected right now. There's a lot of bad news going around the world and if governments don't take action against China, individuals will by boycotting their products forcing manufactures to make products elsewhere. WHO also needs to be dealt with. The experts running the show assisted China in deceiving the world and gave out bad advice telling nations to keep borders open.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 09, 2020, 02:27:17 PM
Watch this Billy and try to understand. It's an interesting watch for everyone else as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P86GeXlB4pY
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 02:46:48 PM

The makers of the video praised WHO for warning the world and said UK got their first case 2 weeks later. They criticize UK for waiting to lock down the country 6 weeks later after the first case. Those guys are idiots. Is the world supposed to lockdown after WHO warns the world? Are nations supposed to lockdown and shut down economies after their first case shows up in their countries?

They failed to criticize WHO for continuously recommending nations to keep borders open.  They said China made the genome sequencing of the virus available Jan 12 as if it's supposed to make a difference. They fail to tell us China and WHO through that time and most of January tell nations not to worry, the virus can't be transferred human to human which gave everybody the belief one could only get the virus if they ate virus tainted meat. Why do nations need to act unless their population eats meat coming out of the Wuhan meat market? They fail to tell their listeners that China prevented experts from coming into China to evaluate the virus and situation themselves. They refuse to tell the whole story to make the UK look bad in their response to the virus. I couldn't watch the whole video. Sorry.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 09, 2020, 03:44:05 PM
...There's a lot of bad news going around the world and if governments don't take action against China, individuals will by boycotting their products forcing manufactures to make products elsewhere. WHO also needs to be dealt with. The experts running the show assisted China in deceiving the world and gave out bad advice telling nations to keep borders open.

:::chucke:::

I can't help but be reminded of the satirical film ' A Day Without Mexicans'. How/when/which do you propose to carry out this exercise, BillyB?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 09, 2020, 03:52:48 PM
Watch this Billy and try to understand. It's an interesting watch for everyone else as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P86GeXlB4pY

Not your finest moment, Buddy.

It was WHO that was stating that Corona was not transmittable, human to human.   It is almost like this guy was on the payroll of the Chinese. 

The Chinese are spending money, hand over fist, right now, to improve their image.   Better watch what you quote as it may be the product of the Chinese disinformation campaign.

Of course, there are those on this forum who still believe that China really only has 3000 dead - and that it is their superior style of government that could manage the total lockdown which held their dead at such modest numbers.    All hail the Communist Party of China!!!   (NOT)

Wonder if the Chinese have copied the Russian Troll Farms or if they are doing a disinformation campaign that is Oh, so more sophisticated.   After all, anything the Russians can do, the Chinese can do better.

I was talking to my nephew, today, who is based, currently, in Germany.    I asked him what the perspective was over there, never mentioning China.   His first comments were that the US should never take anything the Communist Chinese say as factual.   He then said, "If you look at their mortality rates and understand how impossible they are, then you have to take everything else they say regarding the Corona Virus with the same disbelief.   Pretty perceptive thinking coming from a Captain Jarhead.

I give it another week before some enterprising web designer comes up with a Boycott China website.

I, personally, like the Chinese nationals that I have met.   But it is there government that is under fire, not them.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 04:10:12 PM
:::chucke:::

I can't help but be reminded of the satirical film ' A Day Without Mexicans'. How/when/which do you propose to carry out this exercise, BillyB?

There's going to be enough people exercising to be noticeable. Not everybody will participate of course. Corporate America is careful about insulting people or getting into politics. Say the wrong thing and a large chunk of customers will boycott them.

What China did goes beyond insults or simply choosing a political side to an issue. The longer this crisis drags on and the more people die and the more people will be affected. They will resent China for killing their friends, family, losing their job or destroying the economy of the nation they live in. As a result many will boycott Chinese products and travel to China. I'm not sold on everybody will ignore wrongdoing to save a few dollars.

If China tries to win people's minds with propaganda that it's America's fault, then our Trump will boycott China.

I give it another week before some enterprising web designer comes up with a Boycott China website.


There's a few website pages that come close. I'm sure they're picking up steam.

http://www.facebook.com/Boycott-China-and-Products-Made-in-China-180862738628225/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott_Chinese_products
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 09, 2020, 04:22:58 PM
That's all good and well, BillyB.

You of course are aware the annual commerce between the US and China is a whopping $800 billion/yr. That's a whole lot of enchilada to kick down the street because were really po'd this time and were not taking it anymore!!!

http://ustr.gov/countries-regions/china-mongolia-taiwan/peoples-republic-china

Do you remotely even understand the size of the lobbyist army that comprises of?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 09, 2020, 04:36:40 PM
Look at the timeline he presents,

Jan. 9 - Worldwide alert

Jan. 12 - China makes genome known to all

Jan. 20 - WHO declares public health emergency

Jan 23 - Wuhan shut down

Jan 29 - US sets up task force

Feb 28 - Trump calls coronavirus "their new hoax"

His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action, how is China to blame for that? Our own idiot president was still calling the reaction to the virus the Democrat's hoax as late as the end of February.

The man who made this is no troll but has a Ph.d in chemistry and has a very interesting channel on youtube related to science  education.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 04:51:30 PM
There's going to be enough people exercising to be noticeable. Not everybody will participate of course. Corporate America is careful about insulting people or getting into politics. Say the wrong thing and a large chunk of customers will boycott them.

What China did goes beyond insults or simply choosing a political side to an issue. The longer this crisis drags on and the more people die and the more people will be affected. They will resent China for killing their friends, family, losing their job or destroying the economy of the nation they live in. As a result many will boycott Chinese products and travel to China. I'm not sold on everybody will ignore wrongdoing to save a few dollars.

 

Well BillyB, get on the phone and convince Mr Bezos to not do business with China. If you get him onboard, which I doubt very much, I am sure your boycott of Chinese products will produce dividends.
There is a reason retailers like Walmart, Home Depot make tons of profits!!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 04:57:50 PM
Here's an excellent website with more detail pertaining to trade with China. Our imports from China in Feb 2020 dropped by 30% compared to what we imported 2019. We can blame the initial drop in imports on the virus but after awhile, other factors such as boycotts will keep imports down. Check on that site every few months to see what's going on with trade with China.  If I were a nation like Vietnam or Thailand, I'd be calling up American companies and Trump. A president can make a difference in trade. Nixon opened up China. Bill Clinton policies accelerated trade with China. Will Trump be motivated to make another Asian nation our supplier of cheap goods? You're right Americans want cheap goods. Before China, cheap goods came from Taiwan. Maybe it's another country's turn or at least one that can share the role with China.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action, how is China to blame for that?


People like to talk about problems but offer no solution. How is China to blame? China failed to allow WHO, the CDC and any other expert organization from participating in controlling the spread in their nation. They deceived and arrested whistleblowers to conceal the dangerous truth. Every action a nation takes against the virus is severe. There is no perfect response. . If they shut down their nation too early to save lives, they severely damage their economy. If they wait too late, they lose a lot of lives. No nation has ever had an experience dealing with a virus like this. The damage will be huge and the world may end up in a depression. If China allowed help into their country early, there is no guarantee the virus would be stopped but at least nobody could blame them for being honest and making a good attempt to stop the virus. Remember last month I showed you a timeline of the games they played with WHO? When they finally allowed WHO into China after weeks of games, they put the scientists in a hotel in Beijing away from the action. If I made many attempts to prevent firefighters from putting out a fire which ended up taking lives, I'd be found criminally responsible for those loss of lives, not the firefighters. I certainly don't blame UK for the deaths of UK citizens.

Well BillyB, get on the phone and convince Mr Bezos to not do business with China. If you get him onboard, which I doubt very much, I am sure your boycott of Chinese products will produce dividends.
There is a reason retailers like Walmart, Home Depot make tons of profits!!

Bezos, Walmart, and Home Depot answers to customers. They will observe their customers behavior and if certain products aren't selling well, they will clear off the shelves to make room for products that do sell well.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 09, 2020, 05:03:48 PM
China had a very strong reaction to the virus.

Quote
In mid-January, Chinese authorities introduced unprecedented measures to contain the virus, stopping movement in and out of Wuhan, the centre of the epidemic, and 15 other cities in Hubei province — home to more than 60 million people. Flights and trains were suspended, and roads were blocked.

Soon after, people in many Chinese cities were told to stay at home and venture out only to get food or medical help. Some 760 million people, roughly half the country’s population, were confined to their homes, according to The New York Times.

http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00741-x
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 05:21:41 PM
China had a very strong reaction to the virus.

http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00741-x

Locking down 760 million people in late January is considered very strong action but strong action should've been taken earlier in December or even November but China was busy arresting medical personnel who were trying to alert citizens and the world of a new mystery pneumonia killing people. Keep in mind, they only took strong action after they couldn't keep it a secret from their people anymore. Too many of them got sick and died. China even protested nations who closed their borders with them. They knew the problems would bring to other nations but they wanted our business and tourism and didn't care if we took it back to our nations after visiting China. If you have a child that got critically ill after attending a day care that knew a virus was running loose and didn't warn the parents, would you defend them the way you're defending China?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 09, 2020, 06:02:00 PM
Look at the timeline he presents,

Jan. 9 - Worldwide alert

Jan. 12 - China makes genome known to all

Jan. 20 - WHO declares public health emergency

Jan 23 - Wuhan shut down

Jan 29 - US sets up task force

Feb 28 - Trump calls coronavirus "their new hoax"

His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action, how is China to blame for that? Our own idiot president was still calling the reaction to the virus the Democrat's hoax as late as the end of February.

The man who made this is no troll but has a Ph.d in chemistry and has a very interesting channel on youtube related to science  education.

Why don't you put a bow on it and it will look really cute.

#1.  When did China stop international flights coming to Wuhan?   When did they stop international flights from originating in Wuhan?   Answer:  China has never stopped flights in and out of Wuhan.  The airlines, themselves, had to cease travel.

http://qz.com/1793858/wuhan-virus-borders-closed-airlines-cancel-china-flights/

#2.   When did China acknowledge that Li Wenliang was correct when he released his information regarding the spread of the virus?   (I'll give you a hint:   He released his information in Mid-December.   He was detained by the police and told not to give any interviews, etc.)   He died in the first week of February.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2020/0207/Chinese-hero-doctor-dies-unleashing-public-fury-at-Beijing

It wasn't until after his death and the Central Committee saw the great Chinese grief at his passing that they made him into their national hero.

#3.   When did WHO acknowledge human to human transmission of the disease?  Hint:   The first documented human to human transmission of the disease occurred in the first week of December.   WHO did not acknowledge human to human transmission until the end of January.   

I could care less about Trump.  I want him replaced in November.   But there are too many flags outstanding and now too many efforts by the Chinese government to spin the disease, without any cooperation given to other countries.    This is not about politics.   This is about lives.   I have read articles translated from Chinese that state that the government will NOT ALLOW Coronavirus cases in the emergency rooms of the hospitals.   Because that would acknowledge that the virus is still active in China and goes against the official statements that the disease is under control.   Imagine that.   Allowing your own people to die because treating them would go against the official government line.

The UK and the US acknowledge the cases.   How many cases are in China?   10 fold?  50 fold?   100 fold?   One of the ways that people know who is alive and who is not is by the number of cell phones that are no longer being used.   That number no longer in use is staggering.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 09, 2020, 06:39:15 PM
I submit, for everyone's perusal, the WHO report from Feb 24th.

http://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-china-joint-mission-on-covid-19-final-report.pdf

Two questions come out: 

1.  What is an asymptomatic case?   Well, it is a case whereby someone doesn't show symptoms but has the ability to transmit the disease.   

2.  Why does China and the WHO claim that there are no asymptomatic cases?

Every country in the world now knows that this travels asymptomatically.   The Doctors at Wuhan Central Hospital documented this in Mid December.   

How much did the resistance to admitting asymptomatic exposure lead to the world wide epidemic?   Simply put, if the world had known that anyone could be a carrier of the virus without the display of symptoms, I believe that the world-wide response would have been different.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 09, 2020, 06:47:35 PM
We (and the UK) should have taken action when infections were first reported in our country. WE (Trump) waited too long to do anything.

Yes, China could have and should have handled this better but the rest of the world should have too. We still have states that have no orders for people to stay home. The Democratic governor of Kansas tried to prohibit churches from holding services on Easter but was overruled by the Republican state legislature, WTF? A great portion of this is politics, we rely on our leadership to actually do something when sh!t hits the fan.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 09, 2020, 07:19:36 PM
Its not just the Republicans.  Anyone who watched that travesty in Wisconsin knew both sides were playing for political advantage rather than the health of the people.  They should remove both the legislature (Republican) and the governor (Democrat) for the antics that their people survived.   

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the state held a primary this past week.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: krimster2 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:05 PM
but not as stoopid as having Easter Service this Sunday...
that's a "special stoopid"
for "Essential Businesses" only...
so I guess religion really is just a business after all....
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 07:53:27 PM
We (and the UK) should have taken action when infections were first reported in our country. WE (Trump) waited too long to do anything.


Action was taken when the first case was reported in America. The guy was quarantined in a hospital. A week later Trump banned all foreign nationals that been in China. He's one of the first leaders in the world to do that if not the first. What were the Democrats doing? They were calling Trump a racist for that ban and they were busy impeaching him into February. A virus wasn't even on their radar until Trump did a travel ban they didn't like.

Video in link below shows Nancy Pelosi in San Francisco Chinatown February 24th telling people to come to Chinatown. She's hugging and holding hands with Chinese people to prove a point Trump is racist and showing the virus isn't as dangerous as people think.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/nancy-pelosi-visits-san-franciscos-chinatown-amid-coronavirus-concerns/2241075/

In link below Nancy Pelosi tells people February 24th to come visit Chinatown! This is what your Democratic leadership has done as the virus spreads around the world. Thank God they aren't running the show during this crisis. But later Nancy Pelosi does her job and tells the nation Trump was in denial about the virus and slow to act. Lol

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/pelosi-encouraged-public-gatherings-in-late-february-weeks-after-trumps-china-travel-ban

A month after Nancy Pelosi's stunt, San Francisco asks for 5000 more hospital beds and 1500 ventilators.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/news/breed-sf-needs-5000-more-hospital-beds-1500-ventilators-for-coronavirus-surge/

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 09, 2020, 08:14:25 PM
NPR today gave a report of tracing the origins of COVID-19 infections in NYC.  The virus mutates, imparting ever so slightly unique signatures in its genetic code. By matching these signatures with samples from Europe, the scientists proved that the first seven outbreaks in NYC trace to travelers from Europe, not China.

These originating Europeans, of course, earlier became infected either by traveling to China or coming into contact with travelers from China.     
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 09, 2020, 08:39:49 PM
His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action.....

I say the whole world waited too long.


Quote
how is China to blame for that?


IMO all nations share culpability.  No nation benefited.   Given the transmissibility and mortality of this pathogen, no nation would escape it.  However, by withholding some important information in the early stages, China allowed the globe to suffer more.     

Quote
Our own idiot president was still calling the reaction to the virus the Democrat's hoax as late as the end of February.

From Snopes: 

What's True
During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.

What's False
Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

Trump made the comments shortly before (but before nevertheless)  the first COVID-19 death in America.

I suppose you still consider yourself unbiased.  Yet, in your timeline you failed to mention Trump's January 29 ban of travelers from China.  How could you miss that?   Trump reminds us of that fact at almost every Task Force briefing.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 09:13:32 PM
Not your finest moment, Buddy.  it is their superior style of government that could manage the total lockdown which held their dead at such modest numbers.    All hail the Communist Party of China!!!   (NOT)

Not YOUR finest moment.  This is all about China competing with the USA, and winning.  Now in order to try to gain back that advantage people like yourself are going to try to use this virus to weaken China.   All hail the 'american patriots'!  NOT!!



I, personally, like the Chinese nationals that I have met.   But it is there government that is under fire, not them.

Always the little one line disclaimer to try to maintain a slight bit of credibility. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 09:18:38 PM
Look at the timeline he presents,

Jan. 9 - Worldwide alert

Jan. 12 - China makes genome known to all

Jan. 20 - WHO declares public health emergency

Jan 23 - Wuhan shut down

Jan 29 - US sets up task force

Feb 28 - Trump calls coronavirus "their new hoax"

His point is that too many countries waited too long to take any action, how is China to blame for that? Our own idiot president was still calling the reaction to the virus the Democrat's hoax as late as the end of February.

The man who made this is no troll but has a Ph.d in chemistry and has a very interesting channel on youtube related to science  education.
Trump was briefed multiple times in late November and dismissed it.  We (The US) had enough time to take a lot more actions than we chose to take.  I think it was intentional.  I'd guess trump had probably already decided then that we(The US) would take minimal  and/or late action, and then blame china later for our tardy response and ensuing death count.  He knew he could count on his 'patriot' contingent to drum up some support and rancor towards China . 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 09:31:03 PM


I could care less about Trump.  I want him replaced in November. 


Oh look, another one of your famous 'throw away disclaimer lines' in each of your posts.  A little hint for you, it is an obvious and failing effort to try for credibility.    It is about politics/business  and you serve the role of the useful idiot well. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 09:34:09 PM
Bezos, Walmart, and Home Depot answers to customers. They will observe their customers behavior and if certain products aren't selling well, they will clear off the shelves to make room for products that do sell well.
And for the vast majority the lower priced item sells well. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 09:39:24 PM
Trump was briefed multiple times in late November and dismissed it.  We (The US) had enough time to take a lot more actions than we chose to take.


What action would you take? China often reports SARS, bird flus, and plagues. There's probably more they didn't report if they were successful silencing people. Are we to shut down borders and economy each time we hear a report?

In January this year China reports at least 4 bird flus

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7987009/Bird-flu-breaks-two-Chinese-provinces-near-coronaviruss-epicentre.html

 In November last year China reports they are battling the most dangerous plague but not before they silenced whistleblowers. This article says Chinese response to the plague is more dangerous than the plague itself. I'm sure Trump got a briefing on the plague too which was probably considered more dangerous than the Wuhan mystery virus.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/16/china-bubonic-plague-outbreak-pandemic/

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/11/15/779526827/china-reports-2-cases-of-the-most-dangerous-type-of-plague
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 09:46:08 PM
NPR today gave a report of tracing the origins of COVID-19 infections in NYC.  The virus mutates, imparting ever so slightly unique signatures in its genetic code. By matching these signatures with samples from Europe, the scientists proved that the first seven outbreaks in NYC trace to travelers from Europe, not China.

These originating Europeans, of course, earlier became infected either by traveling to China or coming into contact with travelers from China.     

Must have been interesting program Gator. From what I understand it takes this virus approx 15 days to mutate( much slower than influenza). Last I read it was up to 11 strains identified.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 10:12:48 PM
What action would you take? China often reports SARS, bird flus, and plagues. There's probably more they didn't report if they were successful silencing people. Are we to shut down borders and economy each time we hear a report?

I'm not privy to the same info trump is.  Depending on what the info was, I might have taken a dissimilar or similar route as trump took, but then I wouldn't go running around blaming china for it after.   Trump has chosen economy over the lives of people, many of which may have had short life spans remaining which perhaps he factored in.  That has been his choice.  China can't be blamed for trump's decision to not take the threat as seriously as it appeared was warranted. 

Fathertime!

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 09, 2020, 10:46:27 PM
From Snopes: 

What's True
During a Feb. 28, 2020, campaign rally in South Carolina, President Donald Trump likened the Democrats' criticism of his administration's response to the new coronavirus outbreak to their efforts to impeach him, saying "this is their new hoax." During the speech he also seemed to downplay the severity of the outbreak, comparing it to the common flu.

What's False
Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

Trump made the comments shortly before (but before nevertheless)  the first COVID-19 death in America.

I suppose you still consider yourself unbiased.  Yet, in your timeline you failed to mention Trump's January 29 ban of travelers from China.  How could you miss that?   Trump reminds us of that fact at almost every Task Force briefing.   

I never implied that he called the virus a hoax if that's your interpretation of my comments. The Task Force briefing would be better if Trump got out of the way and just let the experts speak.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 09, 2020, 11:39:29 PM
Not your finest moment, Buddy.

It was WHO that was stating that Corona was not transmittable, human to human.   It is almost like this guy was on the payroll of the Chinese. 

Hmm, REALLY ?


There was me thinking WHO published the Chinese govt's.  'preliminary findings'..


 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 10, 2020, 05:38:59 AM
Must have been interesting program Gator. From what I understand it takes this virus approx 15 days to mutate( much slower than influenza). Last I read it was up to 11 strains identified.

It was.  However, I could not give it my full attention.  I was on a essential mission (medicine for a family member), driving one-way 35 miles on unfamiliar roads.   It seems the pharmacies are not fully stocked, as least with this particular med. 

Seeing all those empty parking lots along the way .....solemn reminder.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 10, 2020, 05:55:54 AM
I never implied that he called the virus a hoax if that's your interpretation of my comments.

I checked with Snopes, and Snopes published:  "mhr7 speaks pravda."  ;)

Your statement "Trump calls coronavirus 'their new hoax' " was ambiguous to my feeble mind.   


 
Quote
The Task Force briefing would be better if Trump got out of the way and just let the experts speak.

Nothing ambiguous in that. 

I agree Trump should be more terse, yet if you can get past the fact you despise the President, there is substance in his less than captivating speaking style.  The President is obviously working tirelessly on all aspects of the pandemic, endeavoring to resolve national issues.  It is vital. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 10, 2020, 05:57:31 AM
What's False
Despite creating some confusion with his remarks, Trump did not call the coronavirus itself a hoax.

I saw it yesterday and thought it ironic especially after calling Trump an ‘idiot. LMAO. It was fitting to have left the post alone. A great display of people no longer capable of distinguishing reality from fake news.

At least he didn’t accuse him of calling this virus a ‘JV’ team.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 10, 2020, 07:17:04 AM
I checked with Snopes, and Snopes published:  "mhr7 speaks pravda."  ;)

Your statement "Trump calls coronavirus 'their new hoax' " was ambiguous to my feeble mind.   


 
Nothing ambiguous in that. 

I agree Trump should be more terse, yet if you can get past the fact you despise the President, there is substance in his less than captivating speaking style.  The President is obviously working tirelessly on all aspects of the pandemic, endeavoring to resolve national issues.  It is vital.

Meh. In times of uncertainty folks want to see their president. IMO it is important that he address the nation with all the changes and/or updates. Trump's delivery style is his style. Is what it is kind of thing and if nothing else, it's been consistent. For the peeps that don't wish to see it, turn it off.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 10, 2020, 07:18:33 AM

I, personally, like the Chinese nationals that I have met.   But it is there government that is under fire, not them.

This is another cop-out like many here like to repeat regarding Russian people and Russian government.


When a government is bad and does terrible things, it is because of their people . . .
 who either support those actions or do nothing to stop or protest the actions.

Similar to blaming corporations.

Corporations and governments are not real entities.

It is the people behind such entities, and in the case of governments, not just the leaders but the citizens also.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 10, 2020, 07:22:14 AM
This is another cop-out like many here like to repeat regarding Russian people and Russian government.


When a government is bad and does terrible things, it is because of their people . . .
 who either support those actions or do nothing to stop or protest the actions.

Similar to blaming corporations.

Corporations and governments are not real entities.

It is the people behind such entities, and in the case of governments, not just the leaders but the citizens also.

I disagree. Corporations and governments are real entities and do not always reflect the population. You're too black and white ML. I know you don't really believe that statement, do you? Oppression is in the mind of the oppressed?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 10, 2020, 07:45:18 AM
Meh. In times of uncertainty folks want to see their president. IMO it is important that he address the nation with all the changes and/or updates. Trump's delivery style is his style. Is what it is kind of thing and if nothing else, it's been consistent. For the peeps that don't wish to see it, turn it off.

It's been consistently inconsistent... for the peeps that can't help but see it and aren't 'victims'' of some sort of BS nullifying magic woofle dust..

PLENTY of 'Trampu' gaffs been posted here..

But in the spirit of fairness .. He's not alone..


The UK's very ofwn 'Health' Minister ...Jan 23rd 2020 ( The UK has the best test for this virus )   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNGIH4MAaSc

Complaints 10 days ago  that our front line NHS staff are not being tested ..1.5 million of 'em


Response this week : "2000 have been tested   The tests are inaccurate .. "

 :deadhorse:






 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on April 10, 2020, 07:57:47 AM
Trump was briefed multiple times in late November and dismissed it.  We (The US) had enough time to take a lot more actions than we chose to take.  I think it was intentional.  I'd guess trump had probably already decided then that we(The US) would take minimal  and/or late action, and then blame china later for our tardy response and ensuing death count.  He knew he could count on his 'patriot' contingent to drum up some support and rancor towards China . 

Fathertime!


The ABC news report that he was briefed in November has been proven false. In fact, ABC was told by the same intelligence service it was false and they ran with it anyway.


HDL
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 10, 2020, 08:14:18 AM
This is another cop-out like many here like to repeat regarding Russian people and Russian government.


When a government is bad and does terrible things, it is because of their people . . .
 who either support those actions or do nothing to stop or protest the actions.

Similar to blaming corporations.

Corporations and governments are not real entities.

It is the people behind such entities, and in the case of governments, not just the leaders but the citizens also.

Sheesh. The same exact mentality the likes of ISIS and Al Qeada harbor. Do you really see the world in this way?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 10, 2020, 08:17:13 AM
The ABC news report that he was briefed in November has been proven false. In fact, ABC was told by the same intelligence service it was false and they ran with it anyway.

HDL

Fake news does it again. They knew story would hurt Trump so they ran with it anyway. Now they're caught lying, the correction to the front page story will be on page 43.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 10, 2020, 08:27:19 AM
Meh. In times of uncertainty folks want to see their president. IMO it is important that he address the nation with all the changes and/or updates. Trump's delivery style is his style. Is what it is kind of thing and if nothing else, it's been consistent. For the peeps that don't wish to see it, turn it off.

The damnedest thing now, isn’t it? Some folks like getting their heads beaten just so they’ll have something to complain about.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 10, 2020, 08:41:34 AM
The damnedest thing now, isn’t it? Some folks like getting their heads beaten just so they’ll have something to complain about.

Some people will bitch about being hung with a new rope
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 10, 2020, 08:45:40 AM
Some people will bitch about being hung with a new rope

And most people here will bitch about anything...just to make themselves seem relevant, before they go back to their lonely irrelevant lives!!! ((((
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 10, 2020, 12:02:49 PM
I saw it yesterday and thought it ironic especially after calling Trump an ‘idiot. LMAO. It was fitting to have left the post alone. A great display of people no longer capable of distinguishing reality from fake news.

At least he didn’t accuse him of calling this virus a ‘JV’ team.
Go back and read what I wrote. Did I say he called the virus a hoax?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 10, 2020, 06:37:54 PM
Is China hiding its death toll?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFeP9j1QmxU
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 10, 2020, 08:57:52 PM
1.  This data is from the late part of February.

2.  His explanation seems to be based on the theory that if China wasn't telling the truth then they would have a 100% infection rates.

3.  China did not acknowledge any cases, even until mid March, of asymptomatic Covid 19.   Even then, it is unlikely that those figures made it into the government acknowledged accounting.

The underlying data that he used for this presentation has subsequently been proven false.   And still, we see that China, the epicenter for the disease, only has 3000 dead according to official government figures. 

Did you read the WHO report that I put above that claimed that there were no cases of Covid 19 that did not display symptoms?     

If the WHO is attempting to sell that perspective, what does that say about the government of China?   

And, do you, personally, mhr7, believe that China is telling the truth claiming 3000 dead when: Wuhan did not go into lockdown until the end of January.   At this point in time, the virus had been active in China for a full two and a half months.   

Now I realize that there are many perspectives out there.   But many of the intelligence agencies are gathering data demonstrating the true infection rate in China.   You have a guy like this, explaining how China couldn't have had a higher infection rate.   And yet, China, in its metropolitan centers, has a density rate higher than almost every other country in the world?   

He is selective in his facts.   I'm just curious if you are advocating his perspective or just presenting him as an alternative point of view.   As the Western World limps through another weekend with people dying, seeing that 3000 death toll figure from China is anathema to those who see it.

Happy quarantine weekend, my friend.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 10, 2020, 11:38:11 PM
1. His data is from early February.
2. Wuhan shut down completely when they had 500 cases, New York shut down at 10,000 cases which is one HUGE reason China's death toll is lower than most people think it is and China's numbers work out consistently and as predicted.
3. There's no dead solid evidence that shows China is lying.

I give this man, Phil, my full faith and trust. He is a published research scientist and has a reputation of blowing the lid off of hoaxes, so why would he fall for China's hoax if that's what this is??
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 10, 2020, 11:41:56 PM
Please source your figure for 'Wuhan shut down when they had 500 cases'.  That figure does not jive with ANYTHING I've seen.

Thanks.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 10, 2020, 11:48:48 PM
Please source your figure for 'Wuhan shut down when they had 500 cases'.  That figure does not jive with ANYTHING I've seen.

Thanks.

Quote
Wuhan, Hubei's capital of 11 million people where the virus first emerged, has no trains or planes in or out.

At least five other provincial cities are seeing clampdowns on transport.

There are more than 500 confirmed cases of the virus, which has spread abroad, with Singapore and Vietnam the latest affected.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51217455
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 10, 2020, 11:52:41 PM
It is a complete lack of trust.

And the simple aphorism:  The more honest you are, the more trust you gain.....

http://time.com/5813628/china-coronavirus-statistics-wuhan/

The figures that Time extrapolates from the data received is 46,000 deaths in Hubei Province, alone.

In the above article it states that the only time China would acknowledge a death is when it happened in a hospital and was confirmed.  Considering that the hospitals were full and that people were dying at home because they were refused care at a hospital, makes Chinese figures even more dubious.

I would be interested in a small wager.  Gentleman's bet.   As of right now you're winning.   Because you think China only had the reported number of people who died.

I think that the figure is closer to the estimates in Time Magazine.   So let's say, after 3 months, if the Chinese figure has not been revised to be at least three times the current figure, you win.  But if credible sources claim it to be higher than three times the current reported figure, then I win.

The loser has to post on the forum that he was wrong and the winner was right as a separate post.

But I would not take the bet, if I were you.   It is a sure loser.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2020, 12:16:26 AM
.
2. Wuhan shut down completely when they had 500 cases,

I give this man, Phil, my full faith and trust. He is a published research scientist and has a reputation of blowing the lid off of hoaxes, so why would he fall for China's hoax if that's what this is??


You two must really trust the Chinese government to think there was only 500 cases before the lockdown. In a city of 11 million people, 5 million residents left before the lockdown. A handful of cases wouldn't have spooked them, especially since the Chinese government told everybody the virus isn't human to human transferable. The people called BS on that. With all the people fleeing the city before the lockdown, it's a virus's dream.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 11, 2020, 04:30:58 AM

The ABC news report that he was briefed in November has been proven false. In fact, ABC was told by the same intelligence service it was false and they ran with it anyway.


HDL
I haven't seen anything as of yet that shows the ABC report was false.  Can you show me what you used to determine it was false.   

My impression remains that Trump had made a decision to keep the US relatively open despite knowing the risks. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2020, 08:05:46 AM
I haven't seen anything as of yet that shows the ABC report was false.  Can you show me what you used to determine it was false.   

My impression remains that Trump had made a decision to keep the US relatively open despite knowing the risks. 

Fathertime!

Not sure where HDL read it at but Google came up with this article. ABC news said they obtained the intelligence through wire and computer intercepts and satellite images. Where's the proof? Normally Intelligence agencies don't make comments to fake news stories but they did this time. Did you watch the Trump campaign ad I put in the Democratic Contender's thread? Another deception by fake news to make Trump look bad. There seems to be fake news everyday on Trump. It must be getting close to election time.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/defense-november-coronavirus-intelligence-assessment-reports-false
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 11, 2020, 08:34:49 AM
Normally Intelligence agencies don't make comments to fake news stories

You are on a role of daftness, today ...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 11, 2020, 08:41:58 AM
You are on a role of daftness, today ...

Care to qualify?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on April 11, 2020, 08:47:47 AM
I haven't seen anything as of yet that shows the ABC report was false.  Can you show me what you used to determine it was false.   

My impression remains that Trump had made a decision to keep the US relatively open despite knowing the risks. 

Fathertime!


FT,


Here you go...
http://www.nationalreview.com/news/pentagon-bashes-bombshell-abc-report-denies-u-s-intel-identified-coronavirus-threat-in-november/ (http://www.nationalreview.com/news/pentagon-bashes-bombshell-abc-report-denies-u-s-intel-identified-coronavirus-threat-in-november/)


HDL
Title: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 11, 2020, 09:51:51 AM
I haven't seen anything as of yet that shows the ABC report was false. 
Can you show me what you used to determine it was false.   

Fathertime!



Report from CNN
"Intelligence is often only elevated to the highest levels of the government
once analysts and officials reach a certain threshold of confidence in their
assessment.

That day came on January 3, the first day the President's daily briefing included
information the US intelligence community had gathered about the contagion in
China and the potential it had to spread, including to the US, according to a
person briefed on the matter.

Read the entire story here
http://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/politics/intel-agencies-covid-november/index.html


Defense Official Shoots Down ABC Report Alleging Trump
Admin Ignored Virus Warnings

ABC is quietly sweeping under the rug their own sensational report they
hyped all day Wednesday, which suggested the Trump administration
ignored warnings of an impending pandemic, back in November.

That report is now in dispute, as the very military intelligence agency which
ABC’s unnamed sources cited, has come out denying the existence of such
an intelligence assessment.
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/kristine-marsh/2020/04/09/defense-official-shoots-down-abc-report-alleging-trump-admin

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2020, 10:22:53 AM
ABC is quietly sweeping under the rug their own sensational report they
hyped all day Wednesday, which suggested the Trump administration
ignored warnings of an impending pandemic, back in November.


It was mission accomplished regardless. Fake news will gamble their reputation in exchange for costing Trump's votes. Any fake news story that shows Trump is incompetent, racist, rude or just a bad leader in any way is a story worth reporting. There's not enough true stories on Trump to prove he's a bad guy so they have to make something up everyday. The media is trying to affect an American election in ways that make Russia envious.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 11, 2020, 11:34:39 AM
As of today, China has reported 3339 deaths.   

The US has reported 20,064 deaths.   

It is an 'in your face' type figure that China offers.   My own take is that anyone who disseminates this Chinese figure is an agent of fake news.

Does anyone else have a different take?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2020, 11:47:12 AM

China has 2 deaths per million population and their fight against the virus is almost over based on the data they provide. America currently has 61 deaths per million. Some European nations have hundreds of deaths per million and our fight against the virus is not over. All prosperous nations on earth with good health care systems and high level education have high death rates. Nations that don't do as well have very low death rates. There's no communist nation on earth that has more than a few deaths per million population. Some Communist nations such as N Korea, Vietnam, and Laos all report zero deaths. Although they are all bordering China, none of them have the problems Western nations have.

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 11, 2020, 12:32:56 PM
I would be interested in a small wager.  Gentleman's bet.   As of right now you're winning.   Because you think China only had the reported number of people who died.

I think that the figure is closer to the estimates in Time Magazine.   So let's say, after 3 months, if the Chinese figure has not been revised to be at least three times the current figure, you win.  But if credible sources claim it to be higher than three times the current reported figure, then I win.

The loser has to post on the forum that he was wrong and the winner was right as a separate post.

But I would not take the bet, if I were you.   It is a sure loser.

I'll take that bet.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 11, 2020, 12:41:38 PM
I'll take that bet.

You 'da man, Bro.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 11, 2020, 05:15:39 PM
You 'da man, Bro.

Witnessed.  3x would be 10,000 deaths.

China will stonewall, so the issue with mhr will be what is a credible source. 

Imperial College in London is a renown science-based university, ranked as high as 10th in the world.  The university has an active program researching COVID-19, including investigations of the changing situation in Wuhan and Hubei China.  You may recall that Imperial College developed a math model showing the uS could experience over one million deaths IF mitigation measures were not undertaken. 


Imperial College  performed a thorough analysis of the limited early data from China.     They have issued 14 COVID-19 reports, which can be found here. 

   http://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/covid-19/covid-19-reports/

The early  reports showed that China was underreporting the number of cases. Here's some findings: 

Report 1 (January 17)  -  "We estimate that a total of 1,723 cases of 2019-nCoV in Wuhan City had onset of symptoms by 12th January."  China had reported only 45 cases by January 16.   

"....magnitude of these numbers suggests that substantial human to human transmission cannot be ruled out."  This is 5 days before WHO stated "...there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission."

Report 2 (January 22) - "Our estimate of the number of cases in Wuhan with symptoms onset by January 18th is now 4,000.... Our analysis suggests that the COVID-19 outbreak has caused substantially more cases of moderate or severe respiratory illness in Wuhan than have currently been detected."   On January 18 China had reported only 121 cases.

"However, recent rapid increases in officially reported confirmed case numbers in China suggest that case detection and reporting has been substantially enhanced in recent days."

"Exit screening [ed. from Wuhan airport] may have reduced exports in recent days, in which case our baseline prediction may be an underestimate of the true number of cases in Wuhan.

Report 3 (January 25) - "The unprecedented quarantining of multiple cities in Hubei province, China on 23rd January 2020 clearly marks a new stage of the public health response to this outbreak....It is unclear at the current time whether this outbreak can be contained within China; uncertainties include the severity spectrum of the disease caused by this virus and whether cases with relatively mild symptoms are able to transmit the virus efficiently."

Report 4 (February 10) - "For cases detected in Hubei, we estimate the CFR (Case Fatality Ratio) to be 18%. For cases detected in travellers outside mainland China, we obtain central estimates of the CFR in the range 1.2-5.6%.  Published data from China suggest that the majority of detected and reported cases have moderate or severe illness, with atypical pneumonia and/or acute respiratory
distress being used to define suspected cases eligible for testing. In these individuals, clinical outcomes are likely to be more severe, and hence any estimates of the CFR are likely to be high."

Report 6 (February 21) - "Although travel restrictions from Wuhan City and other cities across China may have reduced the absolute number of travellers to and from China, we estimated that about two thirds of COVID-19 cases exported from mainland China have remained undetected worldwide, potentially resulting in multiple chains of as yet undetected human-to-human transmission outside mainland China."

I mention this because in a February interview, Imperial College rep stated the Chinese are reporting number of new cases/day up to 50,000 less than the actual number.   One can only infer that deaths are also grossly under-reported.  Alas, no such report yet. 

Maybe Imperial College will report information about true number of deaths in China. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 12, 2020, 12:31:55 AM
I am an infrequent reader of NY Magazine.   But the article attached, from the Intelligencer strikes right to the heart of how we got into our current situation.   What is more is that typically the people normally reading this magazine would not have the unadulterated rage against the Chinese that is the opinion of this magazine article.   

I said that it would take around a month for people, sitting in their homes, to get really upset with China.   I think it is actually starting now.   And by the end of the month it will be a snowball gathering steam down a huge mountain.

China's only way out is to bare their soul and come clean.   But it looks to many like China is attempting to use disinformation to try and rid themselves of their problem.   The world is alert to Chinese misdeeds and disinformation will not assist them.

One of the things that I noticed in the reading of this article:   Japan is already subsidizing its companies to relocate from China.   They are willing to pay the price not to do business with China anymore. 

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/andrew-sullivan-time-for-conscious-uncoupling-with-china.html
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 07:11:36 AM
   

I said that it would take around a month for people, sitting in their homes, to get really upset with China.   I think it is actually starting now.   And by the end of the month it will be a snowball gathering steam down a huge mountain.

China's only way out is to bare their soul and come clean.   But it looks to many like China is attempting to use disinformation to try and rid themselves of their problem.   The world is alert to Chinese misdeeds and disinformation will not assist them.
No, there will always be a minority of the population that is disgruntled with China.  Before the virus occurred they were already disgruntled with China, and this is just the latest effort to blame China.  Your hope that everybody gangs up on China is just a way to propel the US by weakening it's competition. 

One of the things that I noticed in the reading of this article:   Japan is already subsidizing its companies to relocate from China.   They are willing to pay the price not to do business with China anymore. 

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/andrew-sullivan-time-for-conscious-uncoupling-with-china.html
China itself has outsourced some of it's manufacturing.  Why?  Because Chinese labor is actually expensive compared to Vietnam and India.  In 30 years when India is a manufacturing powerhouse, people like yourself will be grumbling about how 'evil India' is for making all our goods and competing unfairly.   Really it is the US that is at fault for not making our own stuff, some of which is actually vital. 

Fathertime! 
Title: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 12, 2020, 08:02:48 AM
No, there will always be a minority of the population that is disgruntled with China. 
Before the virus occurred they were already disgruntled with China, and this is just
the latest effort to blame China. 
Fathertime!

It started in China, they lied about it and it's their fault.
Use Google and find a reference that thinks this isn't on
China.



Words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words

I HATE THE USA!

Fathertime!

We know

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 08:59:19 AM
It started in China, they lied about it and it's their fault.
Use Google and find a reference that thinks this isn't on
China.


That's EASY ..

Studies Show N.Y. Outbreak Originated in Europe ... possibly different strain
1/ http://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-live-updates.html



2/   "'American coronavirus': China pushes propaganda casting doubt on virus origin

Diplomats, state media and officials in China encourage idea that Covid-19 came from the US"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/conspiracy-theory-that-coronavirus-originated-in-us-gaining-traction-in-china (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/conspiracy-theory-that-coronavirus-originated-in-us-gaining-traction-in-china)


3/ Iran leader refuses US help; cites coronavirus conspiracy theory


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/iran-leader-refuses-cites-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory-200322145122752.html


4/ 'it started' ... in Russia ... The Masons did it .. .. with the 'help' of Soros and Bill Gates..

They 'blew up ' Vectors labs in Novosibrsk, 'set fire to forests' to spread it to China and because the 'world is flat'  it stopped / started there ..


http://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/04/10/no-laughing-matter (http://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/04/10/no-laughing-matter)


May be - as we see very often on here ;) .. Google is not our friend ...


Title: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 12, 2020, 09:10:08 AM

That's EASY ..

May be - as we see very often on here ;) .. Google is not our friend ...

I thought everyone knew it was the Masons setting fires in the Tundra.
(I'll explain the eyeball in the pyramid in the dollar bill later)

FT would have to defend the claims in those articles. He makes proclamations 
and then he gets called on it and then he never backs up what he says.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 09:18:37 AM

FT would have to defend the claims in those articles. He makes proclamations 
and then he gets called on it and then he never backs up what he says.

Hmm,

I think BC has busted 'someone you know - intimately' -  for THAT one, too ;)

Only he used data .. that that 'someone' couldn't  refute !

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 12, 2020, 09:40:29 AM
It started in China, they lied about it and it's their fault.
Use Google and find a reference that thinks this isn't on
China.


I googled 'coronavirus' , get where it sent me??? I think 99% of every article is contained in RWD!!! One stop shop!!

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24217.0
 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2020, 09:45:50 AM
I googled 'coronavirus' , get where it sent me??? I think 99% of every article is contained in RWD!!! One stop shop!!

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24217.0

What is going on here? We used to be THE place to talk politics. Now we're the place to talk coronavirus!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 12, 2020, 10:33:10 AM
What is going on here? We used to be THE place to talk politics. Now we're the place to talk coronavirus!

Politics has merely morphed into health issues.

Still the know-it-all's posting links from articles found in the internet that we all know are 100% true!!

Arguing who is right or wrong still the underlying message here!!!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 12, 2020, 11:16:17 AM
Politics has merely morphed into health issues.

Still the know-it-all's posting links from articles found in the internet that we all know are 100% true!!

Arguing who is right or wrong still the underlying message here!!!

You obviously had been away for a while LAman. RWD had been resided by people lately who possess powers of knowing far more about your place of residence, and the current events thereof, despite not being there, or worst never ever visited it.

It really is pretty amazing to behold.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 12, 2020, 11:16:37 AM
Hmm,

I think BC has busted 'someone you know - intimately' -  for THAT one, too ;)

Only he used data .. that that 'someone' couldn't  refute !

Do you have an argument about something?

Surely you aren't defending FT for posting silly speculations as fact
without backup (for the thousandth time).




Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 12, 2020, 11:25:02 AM
I googled 'coronavirus' , get where it sent me??? I think 99% of every article is contained in RWD!!! One stop shop!!

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24217.0

What has that got to do with the price of tea in China or the absence
of air on the moon? If there is a topic that you want to talk about you
can start a thread and talk about it. Heck, I'll join in if I know anything
about it.



Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 12, 2020, 11:42:19 AM
What has that got to do with the price of tea in China or the absence
of air on the moon? If there is a topic that you want to talk about you
can start a thread and talk about it. Heck, I'll join in if I know anything
about it.

The point is.... people throwing articles about the virus as if they are proving their point.
It is only to shows their self interests. Who knows what is true or not.
Instead of articles, try do some actual RESEARCH, which takes hours and hours of looking at different viewpoints and data!! Then come here with some substance...…. and have an actual discussion!!!
If there is nothing about 'russian' or 'women' then hopefully there is a discussion...….not about right or wrong, about viewpoints and why!!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 12, 2020, 11:46:14 AM
You obviously had been away for a while LAman. RWD had been resided by people lately who possess powers of knowing far more about your place of residence, and the current events thereof, despite not being there, or worst never ever visited it.

It really is pretty amazing to behold.

I am always amazed at the level of expertise here. Forget Ghostbusters, here you will find answers for anything!!!!

Maybe discuss world peace???? Then start again the arguing, name calling, bitching, right\wrong , i'm better than you attitude.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 12, 2020, 11:57:52 AM
I am always amazed at the level of expertise here. Forget Ghostbusters, here you will find answers for anything!!!!

Maybe discuss world peace???? Then start again the arguing, name calling, bitching, right\wrong , i'm better than you attitude.

Easy. Lest you like getting your post deleted.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2020, 12:02:39 PM
I am always amazed at the level of expertise here.

It would be even more informative if my wife participated in RWD topics - she knows everything.   ;)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 12, 2020, 12:16:33 PM
Years ago, when we were all much younger, there was something called the 'Great Game'.  It was the clash of the titans of government.  And a battle which defined our generation(s).   It was communism vs. democracy.   But in the older days China was never part of that discussion because they had, for so many years, isolated themselves.

Now Russia no longer claims to be communist.   And, for all practical purposes, Russia is a gas station masquerading as a country.   

I looked at two topics this morning when I woke up (Happy Easter, everyone, by the way).   The first was the ongoing oil glut and the inability of the producers to stem the flow.   DJT actually did some creative work here and it will soon be appreciated by much of the world (except, of course, the American liberal press).

Without Russia to backstop the US, the game was no longer played.   But now there is a new 'great game'.   And that game is centered around the old great game.   The game, of course, is between Communist China and the US.   (Notice no one ever uses the name Communist China any more.  It has to do with China winning the information war and desiring to minimize the exposure of the Republic of China.)  This was my second topic I looked at today.

China is operated by a very few elderly men who sit on what is called 'The Central Committee'.   It should be called The Central Committee of the Communist Party.

This group is insular.   It is also very dogmatic in what it believes is right for the average Chinese citizen.   Unfortunately, such dogmatism can have tragic results for the rest of the world.   Now we are seeing an active cover-up of anything that sheds light on the origins of the Corona Virus.  It is unconscionable that China should do this when the rest of the world is desperate to figure out the origins and spread of the disease.  But China is attempting to protect its economy so it has put up a wall around the information it has, releasing only information that will exonerate China.

We have China apologists who state that because China has such a vice like grip on its populace that it is more efficient at quelling a virus than Western democracies.    So, once more, we are targeted towards that great game that is again being played.   The obvious factor that is ignored by the apologists is that no information condemning China is allowed to surface, so the (so-called) facts that these apologists base their praise on is dubious at best.  Let me re-state it a different way:  Obscuring the truth does not make a governmental policy more effective.   It just highlights that there is no access to information that would condemn the government policy.   And there is the rub.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 12, 2020, 04:37:16 PM
It would be even more informative if my wife participated in RWD topics - she knows everything.   ;)

You should be very much at home here!! ))
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 05:44:40 PM
It started in China, they lied about it and it's their fault.
Use Google and find a reference that thinks this isn't on
China.


We know
The US does in fact rely on China to build much of our stuff. That is nobody's fault but our own. 

I didn't say the virus didn't start in china, it probably did.  Unlike conservatives who like to blame blame blame china, I realize that Virus's are the world works.  I don't believe all the conspiracies designed to drum up hatred of china.  The US's action has shown that we are more concerned about our economy then the lives we may lose along the way.  Can't blame China for that one. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 05:47:50 PM
FT would have to defend the claims in those articles. He makes proclamations 
and then he gets called on it and then he never backs up what he says.
I often don't find it necessary to post a bunch of slanted links like you often do.  I'll make my assertion and leave it at that.  It will be up to the others to decide if the point is valid or not.  In this case, I don't blame China like you do, because it is the US's fault for the higher death count.  Somewhere early on, it was decided not to take drastic action because of it's affect on the economy. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 05:50:38 PM
The point is.... people throwing articles about the virus as if they are proving their point.
It is only to shows their self interests. Who knows what is true or not.
 
I'm going to have to agree with LAman here.  Posting a bunch of slanted links to 'prove' a point only shows what type of 'information' YOU are susceptible to.  Given that, often your links amount to less than a hill of beans to me.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2020, 06:07:59 PM
But now there is a new 'great game'.   And that game is centered around the old great game.   The game, of course, is between Communist China and the US


Interesting.  In this new game, China is more formidable than the old CCCP.  The reason?  Two:  1) global focus and 2) money.

The Soviet's primary goal  was protecting its borders, focusing on their neighbors as a buffer.  World domination was a secondary goal.  Not having trade currency, economic expansion was impossible, so the Soviets relied on muscle to control its "satellites."  The West meanwhile was expanding its global influence on the heels of trade and business development. 

In contrast to the Soviet Union, China uses its mammoth foreign trade to generate money for gaining control in economic ways.  China loans money to underdeveloped countries around the globe to build infrastructure and industry, and later gains more and more control as these nations are unable to repay the loans.  An oversimplification, yet a better plan than the Soviet plan.   


Quote
But China is attempting to protect its economy so it has put up a wall around the information it has, releasing only information that will exonerate China.

I don't expect this to change.   The monoculture society of China accepts this autocracy as a patriotic way to keep the nation expanding, reaping the benefits in the form of a better life.   

The West by conceding to unfair trade has helped China in your game of world domination.  These trade policies need to change.  The coronavirus pandemic may just help crystallize the need to make these changes.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 06:20:42 PM

In contrast to the Soviet Union, China uses its mammoth foreign trade to generate money for gaining control in economic ways.  China loans money to underdeveloped countries around the globe to build infrastructure and industry, and later gains more and more control as these nations are unable to repay the loans.  An oversimplification, yet a better plan than the Soviet plan.   
China EARNS money, and then uses their earned money to broaden their interests everywhere else rather than squander it on frivolous items.  Now they are to be blamed for being good capitalists, while we (The US) sit on our widening tails eating Cheetos.  If we were to apply this to individuals, we would call the Chinese the hard go getter providers, and the US would be the fat entitled slob on welfare.   If there is to be change it would need to come from our populous.   

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 06:33:28 PM

FT,


Here you go...
http://www.nationalreview.com/news/pentagon-bashes-bombshell-abc-report-denies-u-s-intel-identified-coronavirus-threat-in-november/ (http://www.nationalreview.com/news/pentagon-bashes-bombshell-abc-report-denies-u-s-intel-identified-coronavirus-threat-in-november/)
HDL

Thanks I see that trump is denying it, and perhaps others are backing him up.  While browsing the internet today, I happened to find another article that states Trump was behind the curve on the virus all along.  I found this one sentence to be quite revealing. It is discussing Trump's response in late January.   Here is the sentence. 

"In recent days, Trump has denied that he saw the memo at the time. But the Times report reveals that aides raised it with him at the time and that he was unhappy that Navarro had put his ideas in writing."




What this reveals to me is something I already strongly suspect all along.  Trump doesn't want a paper trail.  That is obviously why he was angry with Navarro.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if trump did know in November as the ABC report states.  No paper trail would be the trump way of doing things of course to later have the deniability option. 

Here is a link to the article I quoted from:

 http://www.yahoo.com/news/five-takeaways-trump-knew-virus-160133219.html   (http://www.yahoo.com/news/five-takeaways-trump-knew-virus-160133219.html)

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2020, 07:06:50 PM
It would be even more informative if my wife participated in RWD topics - she knows everything.   ;)

That's like my wife. Our wives couldn't marry men their age because they would be too stupid. That's why they married older wiser men. Unfortunately we are still not wise enough.

The day my younger son turned 4 yo, he said "Today I'm 4 yo and now I know everything."  I asked it what will he know when he turns 5 yo. He spent a few seconds thinking and came up with an excellent answer "I will know more than everything." He's a chip off the old block.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: mhr7 on April 12, 2020, 08:29:36 PM
I don't believe all the conspiracies designed to drum up hatred of china. 
Fathertime!

I don't either, and I have no particular love of China.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: krimster2 on April 13, 2020, 07:22:36 AM
The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value.
It matters very little if it is true or false.
the anti-China rhetoric is merely to deflect anger from Trump...
China isn’t guilty of anything that Trump himself hasn’t done multiple times
but Trump wants to make sure that China gets ALL the blame instead of him...
and because you’re a bunch of dumb asses you get fooled by Trump yet again...
especially if Fox and Friends repeat it often enough for you to memorize it

there will be 3 peaks this year folks, we ARE gonna have multiple shutdowns
by the 4th we crash...
and burn...

ok, got it dumb asses
thanks ONCE MORE for your Trump vote
freakin dumbest people who ever walked on the earth
enjoy your turn at the Corona Punch bowl dumb asses
who STILL think the virus is a hoax cause that’s what they heard on Fox
so they don’t wear any protective gear and practice ZERO social distancing
this is 3 out of 4 people in Texas right now, ALL Fox viewers

Darwin had something to say about your future
but his views are probably not compatible with your “faith”
hope ya’ll had a DAMNED good time in church on Easter

our first year peaks will be very similar to the Spanish Flu
second verse, just like the first
but the third will be the worst

did Daniel feel as I feel now?
reading the writing on the wall to the goyim
what good is anyone who calls himself a prophet
he's really just someone who can read what others cannot
nothin really special
sorry Danny boy
we're just scribes




Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 13, 2020, 07:26:57 AM
The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value.
It matters very little if it is true or false.
the anti-China rhetoric is merely to deflect anger from Trump...
China isn’t guilty of anything that Trump himself hasn’t done
but Trump wants to make sure that China gets ALL the blame instead of him...
and because you’re a bunch of dumb asses you get fooled by Trump yet again...
especially if Fox and Friends repeat it often enough for you to memorize it

there will be 3 peaks this year folks, we ARE gonna have multiple shutdowns
by the 4th we crash...
and burn...

ok, got it dumb asses
thanks ONCE MORE for your Trump vote
freakin dumbest people who ever walked on the earth
enjoy your turn at Corona Punch bowl dumb asses
who STILL think the virus is a hoax cause that’s what they heard on Fox
so they don’t wear any protective gear and practice ZERO social distancing

Darwin had something to say about your future
but his views are probably not compatible with your “faith”
hope ya’ll had a DAMNED good time in church on Easter

SMH. Before you go back to the woods behind your house to play fort anymore, you should probably get your weed checked. You're smoking the bad shit Krimster. Either that or the meth has eaten the reality side of your brain.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: krimster2 on April 13, 2020, 07:39:29 AM
physician heal thyself...

drugs are for people who want to escape reality
that would seem like a really useful commodity right about now...
I smoke my own Krimskaya variety of homegrown Cannabis Indica and all by lonesome self have bred the genetics of this plant over a 12 year period
it is well regarded for its medicinal value...

you may dwell in poverty in your world
I do not choose to live that way, I have earned all the riches that I enjoy
sex, drugs and money are just some of those riches
everything I have comes from nature
all that I am comes from nature
I am in harmony
sleep only when tired
eat only when hungry
I want for nothing
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 08:37:09 AM


Petition going around to remove WHO's director Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus. I signed it. China wanted the guy in charge but America wanted somebody else. China got their way and it's paid off since WHO covered for China and praised their efforts throughout the crisis. WHO has failed to do the job they were asked to do. They failed the world. China, along with WHO will have cost the world many lives and ruined economies for many years to come. A couple of days ago Trump said he's going to have a meeting this week to discuss ending $500 million a year we pay to WHO for their poor performance. The leaders of WHO probably didn't sleep very well this weekend.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/petition-calling-for-who-boss-tedros-to-resign-nears-1m-signatures/ar-BB12v8G2?ocid=ientp
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 13, 2020, 08:59:05 AM

Petition going around to remove WHO's director Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus. I signed it. China wanted the guy in charge but America wanted somebody else. China got their way and it's paid off since WHO covered for China and praised their efforts throughout the crisis. WHO has failed to do the job they were asked to do. They failed the world. China, along with WHO will have cost the world many lives and ruined economies for many years to come. A couple of days ago Trump said he's going to have a meeting this week to discuss ending $500 million a year we pay to WHO for their poor performance. The leaders of WHO probably didn't sleep very well this weekend.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/petition-calling-for-who-boss-tedros-to-resign-nears-1m-signatures/ar-BB12v8G2?ocid=ientp

'Well done', BillyB

For a guy who claimed he can sniff out BS you're trying your hardest to disprove it ...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Grumpy on April 13, 2020, 09:37:27 AM
MI6 is also understood to have told ministers that China was significantly under-reporting the number of coronavirus cases and deaths in January and February, echoing similar briefings given by the CIA to the White House.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/uk-spy-agencies-urge-china-rethink-once-covid-19-crisis-is-over
Title: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 13, 2020, 09:51:11 AM
'Well done', BillyB

For a guy who claimed he can sniff out BS you're trying your hardest to disprove it ...

Billy is late to the party. 4 days ago I posted a ton of articles that WHO
covered for China. You think China is innocent? WHO isn't corrupt?
That the USA should pay for their budget while China runs the
organization?

U.S. Funds World Health Organization That Boot-Licks China, With Deadly Results
http://thefederalist.com/2020/03/17/u-s-funds-world-health-organization-that-boot-licks-china-with-deadly-results/



Did WHO's China ties slow decision to declare emergency?
http://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Did-WHO-s-China-ties-slow-decision-to-declare-emergency


China Helped Put This Man In Charge Of the World Health Organization—Is It Paying Off?
What does Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus owe to Beijing?

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/china-helped-put-man-charge-world-health-organization%E2%80%94-it-paying-136002



Top WHO Official Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus Won Election With China’s Help. Now He’s Running Interference For China On Coronavirus
http://dailycaller.com/2020/03/22/who-director-general-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus-china-coronavirus-pandemic-cover-up/



China and the WHO's chief: Hold them both accountable for pandemic
http://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic


The WHO and China: Dereliction of Duty
http://www.cfr.org/blog/who-and-china-dereliction-duty


The coronavirus crisis is raising questions over China's relationship with the World Health Organization
http://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html


Mission impossible? WHO director fights to prevent a pandemic without offending China
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/mission-impossible-who-director-fights-prevent-pandemic-without-offending-china


WHO and Its Leader Play China’s Puppets on Coronavirus
http://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/who-and-its-leader-play-chinas-puppets-coronavirus



Blaming the WHO and China Is Not Scapegoating
http://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/08/who-china-trump-coronavirus-176242


Dr WHO?
The World Health Organisation launders China’s appalling record

http://www.spectator.com.au/2020/03/dr-who/
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 13, 2020, 09:56:06 AM
Here is an politically unbiased and without the terror tactics of the national media, an explanation of where the origin of the virus comes from. It's a long watch but very detailed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Gdd7dtDaYmM&fbclid=IwAR1SJI1SmIOI3erpUERKOJVCttSbi8D94gQAbs5og5F9-wm7DWqq-RfsffE&app=desktop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Gdd7dtDaYmM&fbclid=IwAR1SJI1SmIOI3erpUERKOJVCttSbi8D94gQAbs5og5F9-wm7DWqq-RfsffE&app=desktop)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 11:07:21 AM
When looking at various reports and interpretations, I have found it useful to compare with the timeline of events available here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic#Timeline_by_month
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 13, 2020, 11:14:32 AM
Faux Pas,

I had read the history of the Genome mapping two weeks ago and thought it significant.   This YouTube video is very important.   Note that it said that the virus (prior to alteration) was present in bats in Eastern China?   The gal who was responsible for mapping the genome stated that this was the only species of bat whereby the virus could survive.   These bats, as presented in your video, are not present in the Wuhan live food market.   

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-bats-behind-the-pandemic-11586440959

A picture is beginning to emerge.  The hints were all there from the onset. 

This reminds me of seeing the shrapnel holes in the sides of the airliner brought down in Iran.   Everyone knew what happened.  But it took a period of time for the Iranians to exhaust every other possible story before they would admit to the truth.

I don't believe that, as this video suggests, that the Chinese intentionally infected people in other nations.  The risk factors associated with such actions are unfathomable and not even the Communist Party is that stupid.

I don't remember who said it recently, but I agree that the Communist Chinese are much more sophisticated than their predecessors.  My take on things the other day remains the same:   They are trying to spin something that too many eyes are on.   Their spin won't be successful.

Thanks for sharing Faux Pas.  I don't think anyone has put it together this completely, so far.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 13, 2020, 11:27:59 AM
When looking at various reports and interpretations, I have found it useful to compare with the timeline of events available here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic#Timeline_by_month

BC,

The case history you present is the official line of the Communist Party of China.   Surely you must be suspect of those figures.

It is amazing that you didn't catch it.   Where it says 'National Health Commission'?   Well, the full name is 'National Health Commission of the Peoples Republic of China'.  Anyone can post to Wiki.



                                                                                                                   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 13, 2020, 11:30:17 AM
BREAKING NEWS

To punish China for their uncooperative behavior in information sharing with the global community at the onset of this pandemic, and their ensuing under reporting of their infection and death rates, the United Nation condemned China earlier this morning and a unanimous decision by all the world leaders to ban Chow Mein and Chop Suey with Shrimp Fried Rice from every Chinese restaurants around the world.

China reacted angrily to the decision of politicizing the crisis and had instead offered to further discuss the matter over a bowl of hot and sour soup.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 13, 2020, 11:32:05 AM
BREAKING NEWS

To punish China for their uncooperative behavior in information sharing with the global community at the onset of this pandemic, and their ensuing under reporting of their infection and death rates, the United Nation condemned China earlier this morning and a unanimous decision by all the world leaders to ban Chow Mein and Chop Suey with Shrimp Fried Rice from every Chinese restaurants around the world.

China reacted angrily to the decision of politicizing the crisis and had instead offered to further discuss the matter over a bowl of hot and sour soup.

Bat soup?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 11:40:45 AM
BC,

The case history you present is the official line of the Communist Party of China.   Surely you must be suspect of those figures.

It is amazing that you didn't catch it.   Where it says 'National Health Commission'?   Well, the full name is 'National Health Commission of the Peoples Republic of China'.  Anyone can post to Wiki.
                                                                                                               

jone,

Fight the facts, not the messenger.  If you find any errors in the information posted, as you say 'Anyone can post to Wiki', so even you can submit an edit.

Is there anything in the timeline that you believe is in error?  I'd be interested in hearing about differences.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 13, 2020, 12:18:49 PM
jone,

Fight the facts, not the messenger.  If you find any errors in the information posted, as you say 'Anyone can post to Wiki', so even you can submit an edit.

Is there anything in the timeline that you believe is in error?  I'd be interested in hearing about differences.

Oh.   You get to choose who you quote.  That is a significantly larger role than messenger.   You happen to be quoting the Communist Party of China who, to this date, claims that only 3341 people died as a result of the virus. The entire timeline / case figures numbers seem to be edited for public consumption.

And your claim is that because no one else has changed the figures, that they are accurate?  Wow.

 



Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 12:24:12 PM

And your claim is that because no one else has changed the figures, that they are accurate?  Wow.
 

I didn't represent that.  I did say I use it as a reference point.  The sources used are clearly stated.  Have a better one or another that conflicts with what is posted aside from 'it's all wrong'?

Have a better timeline? 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 13, 2020, 12:32:44 PM
I didn't say it is all wrong.  I said it was edited for public consumption.   I am not sophisticated enough, or have enough knowledge to offer determinations regarding timelines or number of people dead.  My take is that information has been doctored by the Chinese Central Committee, whom you quote.

Looks like sh&t, smells like sh&t, tastes like sh&t.   We have to figure that a healthy dose of sh&t is present.   Did you watch the video presented by Faux Pas?   It is worth watching.   It is a perspective.  But it coincides with the information that was in the public domain prior to the Chinese clamp down on sharing information with the rest of the world.

And why would the Chinese clamp down on sharing?   Hmmm.   That's a tough one.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 01:06:09 PM
My take is that information has been doctored by the Chinese Central Committee, whom you quote.

jone,

My exact words below.  I can't find anything I quoted.

When looking at various reports and interpretations, I have found it useful to compare with the timeline of events available here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic#Timeline_by_month


Quote
Looks like sh&t, smells like sh&t, tastes like sh&t. 

I would phrase such as 'take with a bit of salt here and there'.

We'll just have to wait for the data to get crunched to test statistical validity.

I did find the following interesting from 31 December: 

Quote
The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released a briefing on its website about the pneumonia outbreak in the city, confirming 27 cases and telling the public not to go to enclosed public places or gather. It suggested wearing face masks when going out.[44]

I wish we would have done that here a lot earlier.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 01:11:19 PM
Billy is late to the party. 4 days ago I posted a ton of articles that WHO
covered for China.


I've never been late the coronavirus party. I came early. I've mentioned over a month ago how WHO was covering for China by repeating their lies and praising China for their work. The media and government is just now talking about it but the coverup began long before. All one has to do is look at WHO's website and statements they made in January and February.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 13, 2020, 01:20:02 PM
jone,

My exact words below.  I can't find anything I quoted.


I would phrase such as 'take with a bit of salt here and there'.

We'll just have to wait for the data to get crunched to test statistical validity.

I did find the following interesting from 31 December: 

I wish we would have done that here a lot earlier.

Sorry.  You didn't quote anything. My bad.

As for your last comment?  I couldn't agree more.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 13, 2020, 02:16:43 PM

I did find the following interesting from 31 December: 

Quote
  The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released a briefing on its website about the pneumonia outbreak in the city, confirming 27 cases and telling the public not to go to enclosed public places or gather. It suggested wearing face masks when going out.

I wish we would have done that here a lot earlier.

Even in Wuhan the official order to wear facemasks came three weeks later and was limited to just public facilities.  From the Wiki timeline for January 22:  "At the day's night, Wuhan government announced that citizens must wear face mask in public facilities."

BTW, I found the various advisories in the US about facemasks to be misleading if not a gross mistake, although not as bad a mistake as limiting testing in the early days to only CDC facilities.   

The Wiki timeline did not mention the January 17 Imperial College report of statistical analysis with this  quote:  "We estimate that a total of 1,723 cases of 2019-nCoV in Wuhan City had onset of symptoms by 12th January."  In contrast, China had reported only 45 cases by January 16. Yes, a possibly biased timeline.     

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 13, 2020, 03:20:16 PM

I don't believe that, as this video suggests, that the Chinese intentionally infected people in other nations.  The risk factors associated with such actions are unfathomable and not even the Communist Party is that stupid.

The timeline and the evidence to support it is to me, very compelling. The Gnome and the sequencing medically states this virus did not mutate in the wet market. There were none of these bats in Wuhan. The specimens were gathered as far as 10 years earlier in an entirely different region and brought to Wuhan for study and experimentation. Personally, I smelled a rat from the very beginning. If the Chinese intentionally unleashed the virus that makes it a weapon and an attack. If it was an accident, their cover up and withholding of information is damming and must be investigated. Yes, it is China's fault. China is responsible. What will the rest of the world do for them to comply?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 05:37:51 PM
I wish we would have done that here a lot earlier.


Western governments had to tell us masks weren't necessary. Masks were more important in the hands of the medical community. There was a huge supply in Asia. China, South Korea and Japan have cultures where wearing masks is normal  when going out. Masks makes a difference. After all, the medical community uses them. After manufacturing gave the medical community enough masks, the government recommended those who are coughing and sneezing to wear masks if they go out. From an infected person's lungs to our lungs it's better to have two filtration barriers instead of one so even non infected people will see a benefit from masks. I'm seeing more Americans wear cloth masks when going out. Very few are wearing a mask with N95 level protection.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 13, 2020, 06:20:44 PM
The timeline and the evidence to support it is to me, very compelling. The Gnome and the sequencing medically states this virus did not mutate in the wet market. There were none of these bats in Wuhan. The specimens were gathered as far as 10 years earlier in an entirely different region and brought to Wuhan for study and experimentation. Personally, I smelled a rat from the very beginning. If the Chinese intentionally unleashed the virus that makes it a weapon and an attack. If it was an accident, their cover up and withholding of information is damming and must be investigated. Yes, it is China's fault. China is responsible. What will the rest of the world do for them to comply?

If China intentionally infected other nations, then China would be guilty of using weapons of mass destruction and the resulting cataclysm would be war.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 06:22:14 PM
The Wiki timeline did not mention the January 17 Imperial College report of statistical analysis with this  quote:  "We estimate that a total of 1,723 cases of 2019-nCoV in Wuhan City had onset of symptoms by 12th January."  In contrast, China had reported only 45 cases by January 16. Yes, a possibly biased timeline.   

Then that would be a good source to add to the article.

The report conclusion:

Quote
Conclusions  It  is  likely  that  the  Wuhan  outbreak of  a  novel  coronavirus has  caused  substantially  more  cases  of moderate or severe respiratory illness than currently reported. The estimates presented here suggest surveillance should be expanded to include all hospitalised cases of pneumonia or severe respiratory disease  in  the  Wuhan  areaand  other  well-connected  Chinese  cities.  This analysis  does not directly address transmission routes, but past experience with SARS and MERS-CoV outbreaks of similar scale suggests currently self-sustaining human-to-human transmission should not be ruled out.
 
Remember Wuhan is a city of 11 million.  It also uses an incubation period of 10 days as a basis which nowadays is generally accepted to be 14. Statistically speaking this is a considerable difference.

I'm not saying this in defence of China, but just so we recognize that it may well not have been possible for China to confirm all expected 1723 cases at that point in time.  We know well here in Italy that many were 'flying under the radar' until testing ramped up.  Ditto for other hotspots like NYC that had even more warning time.

Here is the report in case anyone is interested. 

www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/mrc-gida/2020-01-17-COVID19-Report-1.pdf



Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 06:39:02 PM
There were none of these bats in Wuhan. The specimens were gathered as far as 10 years earlier in an entirely different region and brought to Wuhan for study and experimentation.

I assume you did not read the prior posted study indicating that bat to human was not a likely transmission route and that the most likely route is a bat to some animal(s) that ended up at the market.  Heck, I'm really scratching my head whether or not I had a moderate bout of covid. Spent almost a week in bed with all the classic symptoms.  This was in early February but do remember our little dog having one heck of a cough afterwards for several days.  Nobody ate the dog so consider my experience fully anecdotal.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 07:55:13 PM
I'm not saying this in defence of China, but just so we recognize that it may well not have been possible for China to confirm all expected 1723 cases at that point in time. 



Absolutely China would've known if human to human transmission was possible from 1723 cases. Doctors ask those people where they been, who they been in contact with, and what they ate. Obviously they didn't all eat meat at the Wuhan wet market and they would probably tell the doctor they been in contact with a person who is also confirmed positive. In America's first case, our government asked the man where he been, what he ate and who he was in contact with. That is standard procedure. China announce the human to human transfer was possible the same day America had it's first case. They could not hide the truth any longer.

In November 2019, China had the plague show up in a handful of people and they quickly stomped it before it spread. Likes this virus, they failed to report it to WHO until whistleblowers let the cat out of the bag. China has a history of infectious diseases showing up in their country and they have a history of hiding the facts but they also had a history of eventually stopping the spread of those pathogens until this time. This virus wasn't going to be stopped because it's behavior doesn't allow it to be easily detected in many of its hosts.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 13, 2020, 07:55:55 PM
Oh.   You get to choose who you quote.  That is a significantly larger role than messenger.   You happen to be quoting the Communist Party of China who, to this date, claims that only 3341 people died as a result of the virus. The entire timeline / case figures numbers seem to be edited for public consumption.

And your claim is that because no one else has changed the figures, that they are accurate?  Wow.

 
and you quote what you would otherwise quote as 'fake news' here in the western media.   Of course it is only fake news, if you don't agree with it. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 13, 2020, 07:59:23 PM
If China intentionally infected other nations, then China would be guilty of using weapons of mass destruction and the resulting cataclysm would be war.

all these "IF"S".   Since we are talking 'if's'  how about if the US planted the virus in China and then tried to blame it on China.  The world would side against the treachery of the US and it would be war.  All your 'if's' are just another effort to indirectly blame china without the required evidence.  Pretty clearly your mind has already been made up...and it is based on nothing more than your anger that China was competing with the US and winning.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 13, 2020, 08:08:14 PM
I assume you did not read the prior posted study indicating that bat to human was not a likely transmission route and that the most likely route is a bat to some animal(s) that ended up at the market.  Heck, I'm really scratching my head whether or not I had a moderate bout of covid. Spent almost a week in bed with all the classic symptoms.  This was in early February but do remember our little dog having one heck of a cough afterwards for several days.  Nobody ate the dog so consider my experience fully anecdotal.

Sure I did. Did you watch the video? The covid19 has had a presence in Wuhan since at least 2010 in the lab. Definitely since 2017 when the lady scientist published her papers. It was muted to humans in that lab. You're sticking to the narrative that Jone explains is the narrative of CCP. I get it. It's the info you have and the info you wish to believe. It makes everything in a nice tidy package. This reeks of shit to the high heavens brother. Sticking our head in the sand won't make it go away.

I am convinced I had it myself. So is my SIL, who is a doctor and likely I passed it it him before my wife and daughter. I had 14 days of death warmed over and 4 days and nights of coughing non-stop
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2020, 04:59:19 PM

It's official, Trump suspends funding to WHO for their poor performance.

He said they wasted valuable time and dismissed reports that countered what the Chinese was saying about the virus and it's behavior. The gave bad advice advising nations not to put a travel ban on China. Trump said there was credible information in December that human to human transmission was happening but WHO instead reported human to human transmission wasn't happening. Trump said we received false information on mortality rate. Trump said WHO has been silent on the disappearances of researchers and doctors. Trump said it's deeply concerning there are new restrictions on sharing the research into the origins of the virus. Trump also criticized China's lack of transparency and criticized WHO for praising China's transparency although they had to take everything China told them at face value. Trump said telling the truth early on would've been easy for China but now we're seeing unnecessary deaths and devastation to economies.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-calls-for-halt-to-us-funding-for-world-health-organization-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/ar-BB12D4Vp?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: tfcrew on April 14, 2020, 05:26:39 PM
The president certainly spent some time today slamming [deservedly] the World Health Org outfit. It needs to be quarantined.

(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/payn_c17292520200410120100.jpg)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: tfcrew on April 14, 2020, 05:28:04 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/Pointing_Fingers_Small20200410065836.jpg)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2020, 09:38:09 PM

New law. Any study of the origin of the virus must get approval by the Chinese government before being published.

http://www.cnn.com/2020/04/12/asia/china-coronavirus-research-restrictions-intl-hnk/index.html

Intelligence officials are now looking into the possibility the virus escaped from a lab. CIA official said it should be easy to get information from people who are upset with their government. If anybody knows something, China may make them disappear knowing the CIA is poking around for answers in their country.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/intelligence-officials-weigh-possibility-coronavirus-escaped-from-a-chinese-lab-194958353.html


Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2020, 07:04:38 AM

Senator Tom Cotton says we know the virus didn't originate from the Wuhan wet market. Also America sounded the alarm on Wuhan lab studying coronaviruses years ago that there could be another SARS outbreak. It wasn't secure enough and personnel lacked proper training.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/us-sounded-alarm-wuhan-lab-160443838.html
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 15, 2020, 03:57:29 PM
I have heard that dogs are now the progenitor of the COVID 19 virus.   Prior to that it was the live food market in Wuhan.  (Bats from Eastern China are not even sold in this market.)

But for those of you who have a brain in your head, imagine what the State Department and the CIA are going through right now to find the origins of the virus.

*******************************************************************

Washington Post by Josh Rogin

Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus — even though conclusive proof has yet to emerge.

In January 2018, the U.S. Embassy in Beijing took the unusual step of repeatedly sending U.S. science diplomats to the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), which had in 2015 become China’s first laboratory to achieve the highest level of international bioresearch safety (known as BSL-4). WIV issued a news release in English about the last of these visits, which occurred on March 27, 2018. The U.S. delegation was led by Jamison Fouss, the consul general in Wuhan, and Rick Switzer, the embassy’s counselor of environment, science, technology and health. Last week, WIV erased that statement from its website, though it remains archived on the Internet.

What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab’s work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic.

“During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory,” states the Jan. 19, 2018, cable, which was drafted by two officials from the embassy’s environment, science and health sections who met with the WIV scientists. (The State Department declined to comment on this and other details of the story.)

The Chinese researchers at WIV were receiving assistance from the Galveston National Laboratory at the University of Texas Medical Branch and other U.S. organizations, but the Chinese requested additional help. The cables argued that the United States should give the Wuhan lab further support, mainly because its research on bat coronaviruses was important but also dangerous.

As the cable noted, the U.S. visitors met with Shi Zhengli, the head of the research project, who had been publishing studies related to bat coronaviruses for many years. In November 2017, just before the U.S. officials’ visit, Shi’s team had published research showing that horseshoe bats they had collected from a cave in Yunnan province were very likely from the same bat population that spawned the SARS coronavirus in 2003.

“Most importantly,” the cable states, “the researchers also showed that various SARS-like coronaviruses can interact with ACE2, the human receptor identified for SARS-coronavirus. This finding strongly suggests that SARS-like coronaviruses from bats can be transmitted to humans to cause SARS-like diseases. From a public health perspective, this makes the continued surveillance of SARS-like coronaviruses in bats and study of the animal-human interface critical to future emerging coronavirus outbreak prediction and prevention.

The research was designed to prevent the next SARS-like pandemic by anticipating how it might emerge. But even in 2015, other scientists questioned whether Shi’s team was taking unnecessary risks. In October 2014, the U.S. government had imposed a moratorium on funding of any research that makes a virus more deadly or contagious, known as “gain-of-function” experiments.

As many have pointed out, there is no evidence that the virus now plaguing the world was engineered; scientists largely agree it came from animals. But that is not the same as saying it didn’t come from the lab, which spent years testing bat coronaviruses in animals, said Xiao Qiang, a research scientist at the School of Information at the University of California at Berkeley.

“The cable tells us that there have long been concerns about the possibility of the threat to public health that came from this lab’s research, if it was not being adequately conducted and protected,” he said.

There are similar concerns about the nearby Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab, which operates at biosecurity level 2, a level significantly less secure than the level-4 standard claimed by the Wuhan Insititute of Virology lab, Xiao said. That’s important because the Chinese government still refuses to answer basic questions about the origin of the novel coronavirus while suppressing any attempts to examine whether either lab was involved.

Sources familiar with the cables said they were meant to sound an alarm about the grave safety concerns at the WIV lab, especially regarding its work with bat coronaviruses. The embassy officials were calling for more U.S. attention to this lab and more support for it, to help it fix its problems.

“The cable was a warning shot,” one U.S. official said. “They were begging people to pay attention to what was going on.”

No extra assistance to the labs was provided by the U.S. government in response to these cables. The cables began to circulate again inside the administration over the past two months as officials debated whether the lab could be the origin of the pandemic and what the implications would be for the U.S. pandemic response and relations with China.

Inside the Trump administration, many national security officials have long suspected either the WIV or the Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab was the source of the novel coronavirus outbreak. According to the New York Times, the intelligence community has provided no evidence to confirm this. But one senior administration official told me that the cables provide one more piece of evidence to support the possibility that the pandemic is the result of a lab accident in Wuhan.

“The idea that it was just a totally natural occurrence is circumstantial. The evidence it leaked from the lab is circumstantial. Right now, the ledger on the side of it leaking from the lab is packed with bullet points and there’s almost nothing on the other side,” the official said.

As my colleague David Ignatius noted, the Chinese government’s original story — that the virus emerged from a seafood market in Wuhan — is shaky. Research by Chinese experts published in the Lancet in January showed the first known patient, identified on Dec. 1, had no connection to the market, nor did more than one-third of the cases in the first large cluster. Also, the market didn’t sell bats.

Shi and other WIV researchers have categorically denied this lab was the origin for the novel coronavirus. On Feb. 3, her team was the first to publicly report the virus known as 2019-nCoV was a bat-derived coronavirus.

The Chinese government, meanwhile, has put a total lockdown on information related to the virus origins. Beijing has yet to provide U.S. experts with samples of the novel coronavirus collected from the earliest cases. The Shanghai lab that published the novel coronavirus genome on Jan. 11 was quickly shut down by authorities for “rectification.” Several of the doctors and journalists who reported on the spread early on have disappeared.

On Feb. 14, Chinese President Xi Jinping called for a new biosecurity law to be accelerated. On Wednesday, CNN reported the Chinese government has placed severe restrictions requiring approval before any research institution publishes anything on the origin of the novel coronavirus.

The origin story is not just about blame. It’s crucial to understanding how the novel coronavirus pandemic started because that informs how to prevent the next one. The Chinese government must be transparent and answer the questions about the Wuhan labs because they are vital to our scientific understanding of the virus, said Xiao.

We don’t know whether the novel coronavirus originated in the Wuhan lab, but the cable pointed to the danger there and increases the impetus to find out, he said.

“I don’t think it’s a conspiracy theory. I think it’s a legitimate question that needs to be investigated and answered,” he said. “To understand exactly how this originated is critical knowledge for preventing this from happening in the future.”

*******************************************************************

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

*******************************************************************

In a directly related topic, the woman who mapped the genome for the COVID 19 virus had disappeared.   Apparently the CCP was hiding her because she gave out some interviews that rejected the official Chinese line that the virus originated at the live food market.   Yesterday she showed up again and stated the date but was immediately hidden away so as not to allow any direct interviews.



Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 15, 2020, 04:13:34 PM
I have heard that dogs are now the progenitor of the COVID 19 virus. 

I recall one report saying cats can become infected from humans but not dogs.   But that was not your point.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 15, 2020, 05:28:56 PM

But for those of you who have a brain in your head, imagine what the State Department and the CIA are going through right now to find the origins of the virus.

*******************************************************************
So now suddenly the CIA and State Department are to be trusted? 

I think the impression of these institutions worldwide is complete distrust...not to mention what the conservatives here sometimes say when something is turned up they don't agree with.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 15, 2020, 06:06:16 PM
Thanks Jon E for posting that WP article.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 15, 2020, 07:18:14 PM
Appreciate the nod, ML.

Couple of questions stand out in my mind:   

1.  What is the official Chinese line of how the virus originated?   I can't find any official line.  They have come up with many theories.   I especially liked the one whereby they blame the US Army for planting the virus in Wuhan. (Such a theory is infantile.)  It reminds me of the Russians trying to figure out any possible way to misdirect the public away from the shooting down of the flight over Ukraine.  Seems to me they came up with at least three theories that pointed to anyone but them.  To this day, even though the international community has convicted the Russians, they refuse to admit culpability.

2.  Why do the Chinese refuse to allow any interviews with people that were working in the Institute of Virology?  When the virus was in its early stages, these people were accessible and encouraged to speak.  As soon as Wuhan went into lock down, the scientists were no longer available and suspiciously no longer posting on any social media.

3. Why does China not update its infection/death figures?   China, the epicenter for the disease, who is now putting its people back in quarantine, still claims that only 3341 people have died from the disease.   

As the article states:  While there is no conclusive evidence of the origin of the virus, there are many bullet points in favor of the virus being linked to the lab in contrast with other purported origins which have no bullet points lining up.

China is pulling out all stops to try and improve its image.  It would be safe to say that China would do much to improve its image by providing transparency and direct access to its findings and research, rather than attempting a P.R. campaign.   To the uneducated, like me, such hiding of information leads to suspicions of some massive secret that the CCP is trying to hide from the world.

I talked to my sister, last night, in North Carolina.   She tells me that in her city of Raleigh people are actively beginning to shun things that have a Chinese label on it.   China would do much better to come clean than to allow this snowball to slip out of their grasp and gain momentum down the mountain.    This is too big to go away.  And while the Russians only shot down a jetliner, they received world condemnation.   The Chinese are in for much greater condemnation as is outlined by the results of the poll above.   

As a tangent of the above points, I wonder if there is a threshold of danger to the state that would have the CCP go into denial and if that is a tenant of all governments or simply those whose leaders have an iron grip on the media and population.

No matter your perspective, I have the feeling that massive amounts of excrement is about to hit the fan.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2020, 08:25:15 PM

Republican Senators start probe demanding WHO to turn over all documents pertaining to the origin of the virus. Why doesn't WHO cooperate? Isn't 500 million dollars worth it?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gop-senators-starting-probe-demand-who-turn-over-details-on-covid-19s-origin/ar-BB12DkV8?ocid=spartanntp


China allows millions of their citizens to travel and party right before the lockdown.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/china-didnt-warn-public-likely-050457679.html


At the 53:17 mark in the video of today's briefing a reporter asked if it true the government has high confidence an intern got infected at a Wuhan virology lab. She then infected her boyfriend and then he went to a wet market and infected the people there. Trump is looking into it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6_lw8BuKlU
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 15, 2020, 09:19:09 PM

Couple of questions stand out in my mind:   

1.  What is the official Chinese line of how the virus originated?   I can't find any official line.  They have come up with many theories. 
Theories are just fine.  It is quite possible that it is unknown how the virus started. 

.   I especially liked the one whereby they blame the US Army for planting the virus in Wuhan. (Such a theory is infantile.)
I put nothing past the US when it comes to foreign policy and nasty tricks.  Much of the world probably thinks the same.  That said, it doesn't seem sensible that the US did this because it is backfiring more here than in China. 


China is pulling out all stops to try and improve its image.  It would be safe to say that China would do much to improve its image by providing transparency and direct access to its findings and research, rather than attempting a P.R. campaign.   To the uneducated, like me, such hiding of information leads to suspicions of some massive secret that the CCP is trying to hide from the world.
It is people like yourself trying to use this virus as a tool to inflict harm on a business competitor.  China recognizes this and doesn't need to satisfy your version of transparency.  The US and allies like Israel are often extremely secretive and I don't begrudge any nation for not sharing information with the US given our history. 

I talked to my sister, last night, in North Carolina.   She tells me that in her city of Raleigh people are actively beginning to shun things that have a Chinese label on it.   China would do much better to come clean than to allow this snowball to slip out of their grasp and gain momentum down the mountain.    This is too big to go away.  And while the Russians only shot down a jetliner, they received world condemnation.   The Chinese are in for much greater condemnation as is outlined by the results of the poll above.   
Sounds like a load of BS regarding what you say your sister said.    No China would not be better off 'coming clean', as that implies they spread the virus intentionally.  I'm not convinced China will suffer to the extent your are desperately hoping because of the virus.   Consumers here in the US want inexpensive products that China is making.  We have proven over decades that we are not capable of competing with China.  We don't have a willing workforce, if not for the illegal aliens we even be worse off in that regard. 

Fathertime! 


Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 16, 2020, 02:23:02 PM
Heilongjiang, the capital of the most northern of China's provinces is leaking social networking pictures that demonstrate lines outside of hospitals.   Three independent sources are reporting figures of around 5000 people waiting to receive treatment (for COVID 19).   Unfortunately most are being turned away according to these sources.   

In addition, it is also being reported that in Wuhan, anyone exposed to COVID 19 is now being hauled to 'camps' for the infected.   Obviously, if people aren't infected and are being held with people who are infected, it is more likely that they will be infected too.

Source for much of this information:  China in Focus

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 16, 2020, 02:37:14 PM
jone, tell me...

Listening to the briefing yesterday when Trump was asked to confirm how the virus came/escaped from the laboratory in Wuhan, Trump somewhat confirmed it but refused to share what he and Xi spoke about.

I had heard this virus 'escaping' before.

If a staff was careless and infected himself while 'working' on the virus and started this entire silliness, I do not understand the use of the word 'escape' instead of 'carelessly spread' etc...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 16, 2020, 03:10:53 PM
jone, tell me...

Listening to the briefing yesterday when Trump was asked to confirm how the virus came/escaped from the laboratory in Wuhan, Trump somewhat confirmed it but refused to share what he and Xi spoke about.

I had heard this virus 'escaping' before.

If a staff was careless and infected himself while 'working' on the virus and started this entire silliness, I do not understand the use of the word 'escape' instead of 'carelessly spread' etc...

You heard it from me about 4 weeks ago, maybe less. I couldn't buy in the the bat/ wet market theory at all. That was the WHO and Chinese narrative from the git go and MSM was carrying that water. The virus muting there and that fast was damn near an impossibility and all probability is an impossibility. Much of the early "experts" were saying the same thing and then suddenly, we didn't hear from those people anymore. It would appear Trump has some new information he hasn't told us about, yet.

It came from Wuhan China. Best case scenario it was as you say a careless accident. Worse case scenario it wasn't an accident
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Boethius on April 16, 2020, 03:31:34 PM
The World Health Organization doesn't have a narrative.  They accept the information they receive from member countries.  That was the case with Ebola, and it's been the case with COVID-19.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on April 16, 2020, 03:57:37 PM
You heard it from me about 4 weeks ago, maybe less. I couldn't buy in the the bat/ wet market theory at all. That was the WHO and Chinese narrative from the git go and MSM was carrying that water. The virus muting there and that fast was damn near an impossibility and all probability is an impossibility. Much of the early "experts" were saying the same thing and then suddenly, we didn't hear from those people anymore. It would appear Trump has some new information he hasn't told us about, yet.

It came from Wuhan China. Best case scenario it was as you say a careless accident. Worse case scenario it wasn't an accident

Thanks FP...I believe it's a given that regardless of genesis, lab / wet market, the virus came from Wuhan, China.

What the put-off with me is the use of the word 'escape', LMAO. Call me literal, I'd rather it be said 'carelessly carried out' but *escape* almost suggests the virus have a mind of its own.

Dunno, maybe that's just 'lab-speak'.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 16, 2020, 04:06:51 PM
We are at a point in time whereby there is no irrefutable evidence as to the origins of the epidemic.  Therefore, anything we say is speculation.   Are all the pointers pointing at the Virology Institute?   Yes.

People on this forum may call Trump whatever they wish, but when the bet is a big one, he holds his cards pretty close to his vest.   I have a feeling that Trump knows exactly how the virus originated.   But doesn't see any value for the US at disclosing his hand.

As for Faux Pas' declaration, he probably will be proven correct.   But, as of now, there is not enough evidence to claim, with certainty, what he is claiming.   

As for the WHO, there is an implied mandate to see through the BS that a country issues to protect the world, in general.   That mandate was not met.   WHO is meant to be pro-active and immediately advise of threats to the health of the world.

Frankly, I didn't know any of this stuff when the epidemic broke out.   But sitting on my ass in my home for three weeks kinda left me a bit restless as to the cause of my sequestration.

And a codicil added specifically for F.P.:   You and I think alot alike.   I created this thread because I knew pretty much where we were going with this all the way back to the time the thread was created.  Too many markers showed up early for this not to be originally spread by man.   Could even have been engineered by man.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Boethius on April 16, 2020, 04:47:58 PM
As for the WHO, there is an implied mandate to see through the BS that a country issues to protect the world, in general.   

Nope.  Here is its constitution.

http://apps.who.int/gb/bd/pdf_files/BD_49th-en.pdf#page=7 (http://apps.who.int/gb/bd/pdf_files/BD_49th-en.pdf#page=7)

The WHO doesn't collect its own data.  It is completely reliant on data from member states for its data.

I think where the WHO can be faulted is not in being deferential to China, but in ignoring contemporaneous reports from other countries, such as Taiwan (which is not a member of the WHO, because of Chinese pressure), South Korea, and Singapore.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: tfcrew on April 16, 2020, 05:24:07 PM
Republican Senators start probe demanding WHO to turn over all documents pertaining to the origin of the virus. Why doesn't WHO cooperate? Isn't 500 million dollars worth it?
Will most likely say that China has all the records which most probably has already been destroyed.
Begging the question if it hasn't been asked here ...why didn't the virus ever spread big time to Bejing or Shaighai or other big cities in China?
Why did they elude the bug that is everywhere else?

  (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gop-senators-starting-probe-demand-who-turn-over-details-on-covid-19s-origin/ar-BB12DkV8?ocid=spartanntp)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Boethius on April 16, 2020, 05:36:54 PM
Shanghai has been extra vigilant re infectious diseases since SARS in 2003.  It recorded its first case in late December, about six weeks after the first case in Wuhan, and that person was tested before Chinese authorities had reported COVID-19.  It did tracing of every person who was ill beginning January 3.   Beijing also had its first reported case in January, and did the same kind of tracing.  This is also how Taiwan kept its infection rate low. 


Keep in mind that culturally, when people in China are ill, they wear masks.  That would have given some protection to those with whom the ill person came in contact, after that person showed any symptom.



This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: tfcrew on April 16, 2020, 05:43:53 PM
How [ir]responsible is this outfit.......... The China News Network?

(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/stg041620dAPC20200415024545.jpg)
Start at 1:10 and see this sniveling puppet blast away..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEcVFUXPbMI
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: tfcrew on April 16, 2020, 05:45:52 PM
Keep in mind that culturally, when people in China are ill, they wear masks.  That would have given some protection to those with whom the ill person came in contact, after that person showed any symptom.
So Wuhan got a late start then huh?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 16, 2020, 05:53:11 PM
Nope.  Here is its constitution.

http://apps.who.int/gb/bd/pdf_files/BD_49th-en.pdf#page=7 (http://apps.who.int/gb/bd/pdf_files/BD_49th-en.pdf#page=7)

The WHO doesn't collect its own data.  It is completely reliant on data from member states for its data.

I think where the WHO can be faulted is not in being deferential to China, but in ignoring contemporaneous reports from other countries, such as Taiwan (which is not a member of the WHO, because of Chinese pressure), South Korea, and Singapore.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

Seems to me I used the word IMPLIED.   You have your opinion.  I have mine.   They are, of course, opinions.   If things were as cut and dried as you seem to make them, then the WHO would have no problem answering the questions put forth by the US Senators. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Boethius on April 16, 2020, 06:13:55 PM
So Wuhan got a late start then huh?


I believe November comes before January.  :)


Wuhan did get a late start in controlling the virus. 


Seems to me I used the word IMPLIED.   You have your opinion.  I have mine.   They are, of course, opinions.   If things were as cut and dried as you seem to make them, then the WHO would have no problem answering the questions put forth by the US Senators. 


Based on their statements to the press, it appears they've already made up their minds.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 16, 2020, 06:56:35 PM
Here is its constitution.

http://apps.who.int/gb/bd/pdf_files/BD_49th-en.pdf#page=7 (http://apps.who.int/gb/bd/pdf_files/BD_49th-en.pdf#page=7)

The WHO doesn't collect its own data.  It is completely reliant on data from member states for its data.


If WHO wants to see $500 million from America again, they will have to change their Constitution and policies or hope Biden wins the Presidency.


The World Health Organization doesn't have a narrative.  They accept the information they receive from member countries. 


They unnecessarily went further than just relaying information they received from China. They repeatedly praised China for their transparency and for the good job they were doing containing the virus. They gave the world confidence China was doing a good job, was honest with the data they submitted and human to human transmission wasn't possible when the truth was they didn't know Jack...


Heilongjiang, the capital of the most northern of China's provinces is leaking social networking pictures that demonstrate lines outside of hospitals.   Three independent sources are reporting figures of around 5000 people waiting to receive treatment (for COVID 19).   Unfortunately most are being turned away according to these sources.   


Outbreaks still happening as weather gets hotter? China going through a second wave? China not being transparent again? They should reveal what is going on in their country to give us an idea what will go in in our country in another month or two. If draconian style lockdowns don't work, surely our country club style lockdowns aren't going to work.


If a staff was careless and infected himself while 'working' on the virus and started this entire silliness, I do not understand the use of the word 'escape' instead of 'carelessly spread' etc...


The intelligence being reported said it was a female intern that got infected. Being an intern, she was definitely not an expert in handling dangerous pathogens which increased the chance she was careless and made a mistake.

Most coronaviruses can't penetrate human cells. Of course a bio weapons lab would be tasked to get a dangerous coronavirus to eventually do that to observe the effects. I hope China is not testing on live people.


People on this forum may call Trump whatever they wish, but when the bet is a big one, he holds his cards pretty close to his vest.   I have a feeling that Trump knows exactly how the virus originated.   But doesn't see any value for the US at disclosing his hand.


I'm sure he's going to use it for negotiating purposes which is a smart thing to do. Realistically, we are not going to go to war over this so how can we get compensation for the damage done? If China was negligent and the truth got out, they will pay with people boycotting their products. Trump may get a much better trade deal out of this and some freebies.

We have spy planes that fly the coast of China often and spy satellites. Computers know which phone numbers are important and can also pick up many of millions of calls at a time from common citizens. Computers figure out which calls have important info we are looking for and turn the calls over to human ears to verify if there's anything truly important. We may have intercepted a high level Chinese official's call where there is talk of the origin of the virus and how it escaped. There are people in China that know the truth about the virus. Some have disappeared but not all. Some are trusted to keep their mouth shut but too late, the beans have been spilled in a number of phone calls that we probably have on record.


why didn't the virus ever spread big time to Bejing or Shaighai or other big cities in China?
Why did they elude the bug that is everywhere else?


Bejing reported under 600 infections and 8 deaths. Shanghai 723 infections and 7 deaths. China gives us the impression they were not hit hard. Both cities have twice the population as NYC. Trust them if you want.

Dangerous pathogens escaping from Chinese labs happens a lot but they do a good job suppressing news so they don't get a bad reputation. If one Googles for old articles, they are many but here's a couple.

By 2004 SARS escapes Chinese lab twice. Female student got infected at the lab. Sounds familiar.

http://www.the-scientist.com/news-analysis/sars-escaped-beijing-lab-twice-50137

By 2014 SARS had escaped out of Chinese labs 6 times. There's a long history of pathogens escaping Chinese labs in this 2014 article.

http://nationalpost.com/news/a-brief-terrifying-history-of-viruses-escaping-from-labs-70s-chinese-pandemic-was-a-lab-mistake

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 16, 2020, 08:31:34 PM
Nope.  Here is its constitution.

It would take a day to read the 245-p document; however, this jumps out in its list of WHO's functions: 

"(a) to act as the directing and co-ordinating authority on international health work;   Certainly would apply for an epidemic of a new disease with high fatality ratio and high transmissibility.

(d) to furnish appropriate technical assistance and, in emergencies, necessary aid upon the request or acceptance of Governments;   China evidently did not request WHO assistance.  

(f) to establish and maintain such administrative and technical services as may be required, including epidemiological and statistical services;  BINGO!  WHO has highly educated technical staff to analyze possible epidemics, including statistical analysis of data.  WHO can not claim China did not provide data because somehow Imperial College obtained data and performed a statistical analysis.  Imperial College reported formally on January 17 that China was underreporting number of COVID-19 cases. Their report  concluded "the magnitude of these numbers suggests that substantial human to human transmission cannot be ruled out. Heightened surveillance, prompt information sharing and enhanced preparedness are recommended."  This is exactly what WHO should have been doing.  


(g) to stimulate and advance work to eradicate epidemic, endemic and other diseases;   Yes, epidemics justifiably are important in the WHO Constitution.  



Quote
The WHO doesn't collect its own data.  It is completely reliant on data from member states for its data.

WHO will collect data if a member government requests such.  That is exactly what I did when working for WHO for two years.  In my two years of service with WHO, one word dominated policy: collaboration.  Where was the genuine collaboration between China and WHO?  If not there, why should the WHO Director General praise China's efforts?     


And as I have shown above, WHO has renown technical resources  to analyze data provided to them.  In face WHO is already analyzing a variety of health data sets about China on malaria, TB and many other issues.  See:  http://www.who.int/data/gho/data/countries/country-details/GHO/china?countryProfileId=adf73789-9c42-4bc5-a39b-b4d7ba337beb


Quote
I think where the WHO can be faulted is not in being deferential to China, but in ignoring contemporaneous reports from other countries, such as Taiwan (which is not a member of the WHO, because of Chinese pressure), South Korea, and Singapore.

Au contraire, WHO stated in their first COVID-19 Situation Report, dated 21 January (4 days after the Imperial College Report): 

"WHO has been in regular and direct contact with Chinese as well as Japanese, Korean and Thai authorities since the reporting of these cases. The three countries have shared information with WHO under the International Health Regulations. WHO is also informing other countries about the situation and providing support as requested...."

WHO has now released a total of 87 different COVID-19 situation reports, releasing one each day.  A close examination of these reports will show 1) a repeated pattern of essentially praising China and 2) understating the possible huge ramifications of this disease.   Why? 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 17, 2020, 06:44:10 AM
ACCOLADES TO JONE AND FAUX PAS

RWD's Jone and Faux Pas should be commended for recognizing early that China misled the world about the origin of this virus. its mode of transmission, and how it was first "released" to start spreading throughout the world.   

FP is from AR.  Who else is from AR?  That would be Senator Tom Cotton (R), who was the first public proponent of this theory.  Cotton announced in January that China was both culpable and dishonest.  The liberal media immediately criticized Cotton profusely as starting a conspiracy theory.  Much of this criticism centered on Cotton's claim that the virus may have been part of a Chinese bioweapons program, and indeed that claim is still debatable.  Yet the preponderance of information today supports the remainder of Sen. Cotton's accusations, accusations that the world did not support.   

How did Cotton derive this counter theory?  By sitting on two Senate Committees (Armed Forces and Intelligence) Cotton likely would have been privy to early information and put 2 + 2 together. 

This begs the question of where was the House Intelligence Committee in this period.   Answer - the House Committee chairman was totally occupied in masterminding the impeachment of Trump, demonstrating the travesty of  elected officials focusing on frivolous, partisan endeavors that consume the nation's attention. 

Information is steadily being revealed that the House Intelligence Committee under the direction of its chairman Schiff (D) was not only preoccupied with unseating the President but hid information about the less than forthright workings of the DOJ, FBI and Intelligence community.   Schiff wants to have a commission appointed to investigate the nation's response to COVID-19.   Again showing Schiff is preoccupied with exacerbating the partisanship that hurts America.  Might such an investigation point fingers at Schiff for being asleep at the switch?   
   
Title: How did Corona get out into the public
Post by: ML on April 17, 2020, 07:27:12 AM
Heard a female MD on news show last night who was on National Security team for a couple of years and now with private organization.

She reviewed the 3 theories:
1) Corona was man made by China and released.
2) Corona was natural and was being worked on in lab and got out due to carelessness.
3) Corona was natural from animals and got out from the wet market.

She said all science has rejected number 1.

Said that science may never be able to determine if 2 or 3 true.

Decision between 2 and 3 (if even possible) will come from intelligence work with emails and other detective work with documents, interviews, etc.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 17, 2020, 07:29:44 AM
So we went from China to Arkansas, to Senate Intel, Senate Armed Forces to Cotton, to the liberal media, to House Intel, to impeachment, to derive that Schiff is culpable of distracting the President from fighting the Coronavirus.

Ok...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 17, 2020, 07:54:02 AM
Thanks FP...I believe it's a given that regardless of genesis, lab / wet market, the virus came from Wuhan, China.

What the put-off with me is the use of the word 'escape', LMAO. Call me literal, I'd rather it be said 'carelessly carried out' but *escape* almost suggests the virus have a mind of its own.

Dunno, maybe that's just 'lab-speak'.

That's the Chinese narrative "escaped" and being mocked by the MSM and the WHO. The wet market made no sense from the beginning but the mush melon head Tedros from the WHO was parroting it as often as he could. Knowing it made no sense, why would he do that? He's not a doctor, I get that but he supposedly has some of the finest in the world at his beck and call. The Chinese have been eating bats for literally 1000's of years. Certainly the WHO had knowledge of what they were doing in two separate labs in Wuhan?

ACCOLADES TO JONE AND FAUX PAS

RWD's Jone and Faux Pas should be commended for recognizing early that China misled the world about the origin of this virus. its mode of transmission, and how it was first "released" to start spreading throughout the world.   

FP is from AR.  Who else is from AR?  That would be Senator Tom Cotton (R), who was the first public proponent of this theory.  Cotton announced in January that China was both culpable and dishonest.  The liberal media immediately criticized Cotton profusely as starting a conspiracy theory.  Much of this criticism centered on Cotton's claim that the virus may have been part of a Chinese bioweapons program, and indeed that claim is still debatable.  Yet the preponderance of information today supports the remainder of Sen. Cotton's accusations, accusations that the world did not support.   

How did Cotton derive this counter theory?  By sitting on two Senate Committees (Armed Forces and Intelligence) Cotton likely would have been privy to early information and put 2 + 2 together. 

This begs the question of where was the House Intelligence Committee in this period.   Answer - the House Committee chairman was totally occupied in masterminding the impeachment of Trump, demonstrating the travesty of  elected officials focusing on frivolous, partisan endeavors that consume the nation's attention. 

Information is steadily being revealed that the House Intelligence Committee under the direction of its chairman Schiff (D) was not only preoccupied with unseating the President but hid information about the less than forthright workings of the DOJ, FBI and Intelligence community.   Schiff wants to have a commission appointed to investigate the nation's response to COVID-19.   Again showing Schiff is preoccupied with exacerbating the partisanship that hurts America.  Might such an investigation point fingers at Schiff for being asleep at the switch?   
   

Still too early to tell at this juncture but it's becoming increasingly apparent my hunches were correct. It's not like I am privy to information that the talking heads on the MSM are not. I do tend to recognize when someone is pissing on me and calling it rain though. Ironically, I have met Sen Cotton on numerous occasions and have several phone and email conversations with him. Not in a year or so now.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 17, 2020, 08:00:48 AM
So we went from China to Arkansas, to Senate Intel, Senate Armed Forces to Cotton, to the liberal media, to House Intel, to impeachment, to derive that Schiff is culpable of distracting the President from fighting the Coronavirus.

Ok...

Sounds crazy doesn't it? Fact is stranger than fiction. The timing, the players involved, the world damage must all be questioned and scrutinized.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 17, 2020, 08:10:05 AM
Sounds crazy doesn't it?

I guess it is a hypothesis, but not much more at this point and certainly not a 'eureka!' moment.

If the pie arrives, we'll be able to proof the pudding.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Faux Pas on April 17, 2020, 08:16:25 AM
I guess it is a hypothesis, but not much more at this point and certainly not a 'eureka!' moment.

If the pie arrives, we'll be able to proof the pudding.

Very likely there is pieces of evidence we know nothing about. We may never know. One thing for certain we do know, there is a virus and the CCP attempted to hide it and the WHO was complicit in that. Why?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 17, 2020, 08:46:31 AM
FP,

Yes, there are inconsistencies that are being investigated and questions that should be answered by both China and WHO.

I do hope clarifications will be forthcoming by both sides.
Title: Re: How did Corona get out into the public
Post by: BillyB on April 17, 2020, 08:58:57 AM
Heard a female MD on news show last night who was on National Security team for a couple of years and now with private organization.

She reviewed the 3 theories:
1) Corona was man made by China and released.
2) Corona was natural and was being worked on in lab and got out due to carelessness.
3) Corona was natural from animals and got out from the wet market.

She said all science has rejected number 1.

Said that science may never be able to determine if 2 or 3 true.


Science can determine if 3 is true or not. China knows where all the bats are located in their country. They need to give permission to search for every animal and test for the coronavirus that is affecting us. China already has collected viruses out of bats and other animals to study. Why not allow scientists in to review their documents and take blood samples from animals in their country? This is going to cost the world tens of trillions of dollars within a few months, not to mention massive amount of lives lost and altered. What's spending a few billion dollars for the largest manhunt in history to find the source and eliminate it so we don't go through this exercise again? If China really believes it came from an animal, it would help their reputation if they allowed a search for the source in their country. Maybe they know an animal would never be found? IIRC, 96'% of the genome of our coronavirus is identical to a coronavirus found in bats. 4% is different so we need to find if that 4% naturally evolved in an animal or lab.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 17, 2020, 11:06:12 AM
Quote from: ML on Today at 10:27:12 AM
Heard a female MD on news show last night who was on National Security team for a couple of years and now with private organization.

She reviewed the 3 theories:
1) Corona was man made by China and released.
2) Corona was natural and was being worked on in lab and got out due to carelessness.
3) Corona was natural from animals and got out from the wet market.

She said all science has rejected number 1.

Said that science may never be able to determine if 2 or 3 true.

- - - - - - -
Quote from Billy:

Science can determine if 3 is true or not.

- - - - - - -

Billy, I think you are missing the point.

The corona virus in the lab #2 was same as corona virus in the market #3.
i.e. Both from bats.

It is known corona came from bats.

Question is: from bats in lab, or bats in market.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 17, 2020, 11:36:23 AM
Bats that are in Eastern China around 1300 miles away and not present in the live market. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 17, 2020, 11:53:59 AM
It is known corona came from bats.

Question is: from bats in lab, or bats in market.


My last post was proposing to spend billions of dollars to find bats or any animals that may have the coronavirus but it's not true that coronaviruses are found only in bats. Coronaviruses can survive in cell cultures in labs or in other animals.

There's only a few coronavirus out of many that can penetrate human cells. Out of the 3 most dangerous ones, SARS, MERS, and SARS COV-2 two of them started in china. For some reason coronaviruses found in China have a high tendency to acquire the ability to penetrate human cells. As of right now, SARS and MERS is predicted to have a case fatality rate higher than SARS COV-2 but SARS COV-2 is much more dangerous because of it's behavior. It still kills many people but allows some people to be silent carriers and super spreaders unlike the other two.

The pathogen of the century would make for an ideal bioweapon if there was a vaccine available for the army that wants to use it. There are now two aircraft carriers parked due to the virus. A disease spreading also demoralizes sailors and soldiers.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/under-fire-french-navy-defends-handling-of-aircraft-carrier-virus-outbreak/ar-BB12MkL6?ocid=spartanntp

Some scientists believe the virus may have came out as early as September. China did admit that American soldiers brought the virus to China in October when they were there for military games. My uncle's tour group train was stopped before they got to Wuhan in the middle of November and was told to go around the city. In the past I posted an article talking about a man on an airplane showing up in Wuhan infected with a coronavirus. Some scientists speculate the coronavirus was stolen out of a Canadian lab.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/coronavirus-outbreak-may-have-started-as-early-as-september-scientists-say/ar-BB12MPqU?ocid=spartanntp


Bats that are in Eastern China around 1300 miles away and not present in the live market. 


The coronavirus in human bodies is closely related to the coronavirus in those bats far from Wuhan. They aren't the same but very close. This info is important because those bats are located so far away from Wuhan, it blows a hole in China's story that virus tainted bats were sold in a wet market in Wuhan.

Surprisingly, many people on the left aren't angry with China and WHO. Give it a year. After more facts come out, economies crash, more people die, some survivors left with a lifetime of medical problems, and quality of life deteriorates for all, they may place the blame on the appropriate sources.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 17, 2020, 11:57:29 AM
The corona virus in the lab #2 was same as corona virus in the market #3.
i.e. Both from bats.

Bats that are in Eastern China around 1300 miles away and not present in the live market.

Just as important for pointing to Theory No. 2 as correct, many of the first patients in Wuhan had no contact with the wet market.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 17, 2020, 12:03:52 PM
So we went from China to Arkansas, to Senate Intel, Senate Armed Forces to Cotton, to the liberal media, to House Intel, to impeachment, to derive that Schiff is culpable of distracting the President from fighting the Coronavirus.

Ok...

 :D :D :D

I was not thinking  about Schiff distracting the President.  I doubt that Schiff ever slowed Trump given his energy.   Who knows, Trump might have been amused in a bizarre way.   

My point - the impeachment consumed Schiff, distracting him from doing his job.  Who knows maybe he would have discovered something about Iran's Soleimania, or a dangerous virus in China.   Cotton sure did in a higher chamber. 

BTW, it takes a few steps to connect Cotton and Schiff for comparative purposes. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 17, 2020, 12:30:02 PM
   
My point - the impeachment consumed Schiff, distracting him from doing his job.  Who knows maybe he would have discovered something about Iran's Soleimania, or a dangerous virus in China.   Cotton sure did in a higher chamber. 


Schiff is the Chairman of the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. He overseas all the nations intelligence and security agencies. He has access to the same intelligence Trump gets everyday in briefings yet if you Google January and February articles with his name, you will find he was busy with impeachment. He did nothing to stop a threat from coming into America. But surprisingly, for a guy who LOVES to criticize Trump, he said nothing pertaining to Trump's travel restrictions on China in January. He knew the truth and he knew Trump made the right decision.

http://intelligence.house.gov/about/
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 17, 2020, 12:39:25 PM
There is so much we may not know yet.

http://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-outbreak-september-not-wuhan-1498566
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 17, 2020, 12:42:54 PM
Just as important for pointing to Theory No. 2 as correct, many of the first patients in Wuhan had no contact with the wet market.

As usual RWD is on top of every news story coming out about SARS CoV-2 virus.
Let's wait to see what comes out in next few months till end of year. Why debate about stuff if a clearer picture comes out later?

I saw the article Billy gave a few posts up. Timing about when outbreak first came out. Even that some 'A' type genomes were from Guangdong.

Here is the published article:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/04/07/2004999117

what is interesting is following some paths of virus based on mutations and genomes!!!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 17, 2020, 03:35:15 PM

Let's wait to see what comes out in next few months till end of year. Why debate about stuff if a clearer picture comes out later?

Because I have too much free time on my hands, and my wife told me she is busy and to stop bothering her.  For better or worse, but not for lunch. 


Quote
Here is the published article:

My biochemistry for engineers class is failing me.  Besides we focused on bacteria, etc. lumping them together in the category of "bugs." 


Quote
what is interesting is following some paths of virus based on mutations and genomes!!!

That will speak volumes when it is analyzed and published. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 17, 2020, 06:11:51 PM
The CCP issued Order Number 3 on the 3rd of January ordering all local health officials to destroy lab samples of the virus.   It further instructed them not to distribute any information relating to the virus.   Finally, it states that any papers or interviews were to go through the official arm of the Chinese Government.   While these may be prudent steps to sing with one voice, the intent was not to give a unified and verified account of the spread of the virus, but rather to hide the outbreak and the source of the outbreak.

Copies of the document were obtained from these same health officials and shared with members of the Taiwanese media and legislators.

In other news, it appears that many of the Chinese factories are burning down.   The simple fact is that they have no customers.   And the only way for the owners not to go under is to burn the factory and collect insurance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDzfb_KyllA&t=578s



Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 17, 2020, 07:46:02 PM
Just as important for pointing to Theory No. 2 as correct, many of the first patients in Wuhan had no contact with the wet market.

Um, well . . . I was under impression the virus passes from person to person, so . . . what is significant about saying some had no contact with the wet market?

I suppose some had no contact with the lab either.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 17, 2020, 09:05:16 PM
There is so much we may not know yet.

http://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-outbreak-september-not-wuhan-1498566

Wow, BC,

Did you read the comments listed after your article?   I think the Russian troll factory has moved from Petersburg to Beijing and now works for the Chinese Communist Party.

You are, of course, right in that there is so much we don't' know yet.    One of the biggest complaints from the researchers that I have seen is that China will not release the Genome for the first cases.   Something happened that scared the hell out of the Chinese Government around the 3rd of December.   Everyone who knew anything was rounded up and hidden from the world.   

We'll have to wait and see.   I have the feeling we will know a lot more in a month or so. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 18, 2020, 02:00:39 AM
Wow,

China actually upped the numbers of its dead.   :cluebat:

Sometimes I wonder if China has any idea of what it looks like when they report fewer deaths than many of the countries that are suffering from this virus.   According to the official Chinese news agencies, they under reported by 1400 deaths.  Now they are stopping their own people from coming across the border, implying that the virus is really coming from outside the country.

The more they pull this sh&t, the more people get upset with them. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 18, 2020, 04:34:55 AM
Um, well . . . I was under impression the virus passes from person to person, so . . . what is significant about saying some had no contact with the wet market?

They were in the group of the earliest cases, too early for a human infected at the wet market to have have passed it to them via normal transmission pathways (e. g., coughing). 
   

Quote
I suppose some had no contact with the lab either.

The wet market theory could be confirmed/rebutted by an evolutionary virology study.  However, the Chinese supposedly destroyed the evidence necessary for such a study.   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 18, 2020, 07:44:06 AM
Wow,

China actually upped the numbers of its dead.   :cluebat:



Must have been the pressure applied from RWD!!!!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 18, 2020, 10:39:03 AM
(http://s.abcnews.com/images/US/new-quarter-ht-er-200109_hpMain_16x9_992.jpg)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 18, 2020, 11:48:22 AM
Must have been the pressure applied from RWD!!!!

We are standing in the door frame of history, right now.   It is perfectly right that we should discuss this.   I realize you have an arch view of all of this.   But if people were writing things about the rebellion in the colonies so many years ago, and those writings survived, they became the basis for our understanding of what happened. 

If people wrote about the rise of the Third Reich back in the early to mid thirties, such would be a treasure trove of understanding how such a failure of humanity occurred. 

We are having honest dialogue as the world events unfold.  That, to me, is more than valuable.  It is part of the upward march of humanity.  I would think that such dialogue, no matter where it is collected from, will create an ongoing transcript of what we were thinking when all of this transpired.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2020, 11:56:55 AM
Must have been the pressure applied from RWD!!!!

When China Googles "coronavirus" RWD is at the top of the list. They are reading everything we say and know we are not easily swayed by their propaganda. I'm sure some of the posters here are on their shit hit list. We might go missing like those researchers and doctors Trump talked about in a briefing. They may torture us and feed us bat.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 18, 2020, 02:09:44 PM
CHINA-WHO-US TIMELINE

As criticism grows about WHO's and China's responses, I prepared this timeline of their interactions.  Some of this came from  CNN's Fareed Zakaria 12 April interview with WHO's senior spokesperson Dr. Margaret Harris.     

Dec 31 - WHO was alerted in the evening of 44 cases of mysterious pneumonia.  WHO gets such calls almost every day, yet this one set off alarm bells and  was termed a "serious matter."  WHO went to work the next day (1 January), dispatching WHO's China-in-country team to Hubei. 

Jan 5 -  WHO published a formal notification of Disease Outbreak News,  calling it a "Pneumonia of unknown cause."

         http://www.who.int/csr/don/05-january-2020-pneumonia-of-unkown-cause-china/en/

Jan 9 - WHO released a statement announcing the source of the disease: "Chinese authorities have made a preliminary determination of a novel (or new) coronavirus, identified in a hospitalized person with pneumonia in Wuhan."

Jan 10 - WHO issued "technical guidance online with advice to all countries on how to detect, test and manage potential cases, based on what was known about the virus at the time."  The disease resembled SARS and MERS and WHO advised health workers to take precautions when caring for patients.

Jan 12 - China described the virus genome, thereby allowing analytical detection tests to be developed.

Jan 14 -  At a press conference in Geneva, Maria Van Kerkhove of WHO's emerging diseases unit told a Reuters reporter: "From the information that we have it is possible that there is limited human-to-human transmission, potentially among families, but it is very clear right now that we have no sustained human-to-human transmission." However, that same day WHO tweeted a different take, stating that "Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China" and also told an NPR reporter that Van Kerkhove had been misunderstood and there was in fact no evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Jan 22-23 - Tedros convened a meeting of its Emergency Committee as per the International Health Regulations (2005).  The committee is comprised of independent scientists from around the globe, and their duty is to reach a consensus about whether to alert the world of a serious disease.  The committee did not reach a consensus "based on the evidence available at the time."   Tedros asked them to reconvene again in 10 days. 

Jan 23 - Tedros stated it was too early to declare the coronavirus outbreak a public health emergency of international concern. "Make no mistake. This is an emergency in China, but it has not yet become a global health emergency. It may yet become one."

Jan 23 - China moved to stop all travel in and out of Wuhan, unfortunately after millions had already left the province for China's annual New Year celebrations.  .

Jan 24 - In a tweet, Trump praised China for its efforts to prevent the spread of the virus.

Jan 30 - As more countries reported infections,  the Executive Committee reconvened and this time reached consensus.  The Committee advised Tedros that the novel coronavirus outbreak constituted a "Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC)." Tedros declared a PHEIC, the sixth such declaration since 2005.

Tedros issued a statement with his Jan 30 declaration.  In it, he praised China:

Quote
As I have said repeatedly since my return from Beijing, the Chinese government is to be congratulated for the extraordinary measures it has taken to contain the outbreak, despite the severe social and economic impact those measures are having on the Chinese people.

We would have seen many more cases outside China by now – and probably deaths – if it were not for the government’s efforts, and the progress they have made to protect their own people and the people of the world.

The speed with which China detected the outbreak, isolated the virus, sequenced the genome and shared it with WHO and the world are very impressive, and beyond words. So is China’s commitment to transparency and to supporting other countries.

In many ways, China is actually setting a new standard for outbreak response. It’s not an exaggeration. 


 http://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-statement-on-ihr-emergency-committee-on-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)

One member of the WHO Emergency Committee, Prof.  John Mackenzie of Australia's Curtin University soon broke ranks and had a different opinion about China.  He accused China of not reporting cases fast enough in the early stages of the outbreak, calling Beijing’s response "reprehensible."

http://www.ft.com/content/8ede7e92-4749-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441

Jan 31 -  One day after WHO declared an emergency, Trump issued an executive order blocking entry to the US from anyone who has been in China in the last 14 days.

Feb 4 - At a WHO briefing, Tedros criticized travel bans. "We reiterate our call to all countries not to impose restrictions that unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade. Such restrictions can have the effect of increasing fear and stigma, with little public health benefit. ... Where such measures have been implemented, we urge that they are short in duration, proportionate to the public health risks and are reconsidered regularly as the situation evolves."

Fareed question Dr. Harris about WHO's criticism of travel bans even though a travel ban had been implemented for SARS.  She replied that bans create economic harm and can inhibit the travel and trade of healthcare professionals and supplies.  She closed that is prudent to prevent individuals from leaving locales of high infection.

This timeline does not reflect contrary reports from Imperial College, Taiwan, etc.     
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 18, 2020, 04:34:55 PM
Excellent posting Gator.

You are to be commended, and I do so !!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2020, 04:53:37 PM

Dec 31 - WHO was alerted in the evening of 44 cases of mysterious pneumonia.  WHO gets such calls almost every day, yet this one set off alarm bells and  was termed a "serious matter."  WHO went to work the next day (1 January), dispatching WHO's China-in-country team to Hubei. 


Your timeline is accurate but although WHO wanted to go to work Jan 1, I don't think China allowed them to. China prevented WHO from investigating anything well into February and probably never but I didn't check past February.

Below article has a tweet by WHO on Jan 3 saying the Chinese govt. met with WHO's in country office and updated them on the situation. Sounds to me like WHO wasn't allowed to investigate after they mobilized Jan 1 and consequently from the beginning relied on what China was telling them.

http://www.statnews.com/2020/01/04/mystery-pneumonia-outbreak-china/

Also, although Trump praised China for their good work on the virus Jan 24, probably repeating what he heard from WHO, Trump quickly discovered China's BS and applied travel restrictions.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 18, 2020, 05:34:13 PM
Thanks for the timeline, Gator.  We all have a clearer understanding of what took place.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2020, 08:17:38 PM

Although the coronavirus most closely related to SARS-COV-19 is in a horseshoe bat over a 1000 miles away from Wuhan, I finally found that bat coronavirus in Wuhan. But it wasn't found in a wet market. In the article below, a scientist says Wuhan's level 4 virology lab houses the virus most closely related to SARS-COV-19. This supports my theory that SARS-COV-19 escaped from a lab and  it was genetically altered or was helped in it's evolution to becoming something more dangerous that can effectively infect humans since most coronaviruses can't infect humans. This article is a good read. Pass it along and get people educated. If I were Trump, I'd ask WHO and China for all the documents on that horseshoe bat virus housed in the level 4 lab and if refused or we see years worth of missing work related documents, I think we know what happened.

The Wuhan lab does work with the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2, which is a bat coronavirus called RaTG13, evolutionary virologist Edward Holmes, of the Charles Perkins Center and the Marie Bashir Institute for Infectious Diseases and Biosecurity at the University of Sydney, said in a statement from the Australian Media Center. But, he added, "the level of genome sequence divergence between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 is equivalent to an average of 50 years (and at least 20 years) of evolutionary change." (That means that in the wild, it would take about 50 years for these viruses to evolve to be as different as they are.)

Though no scientists have come forth with even a speck of evidence that humans knowingly manipulated a virus using some sort of genetic engineering, a researcher at Flinders University in South Australia lays out another scenario that involves human intervention. Bat coronaviruses can be cultured in lab dishes with cells that have the human ACE2 receptor; over time, the virus will gain adaptations that let it efficiently bind to those receptors. Along the way, that virus would pick up random genetic mutations that pop up but don't do anything noticeable, said Nikolai Petrovsky, in the College of Medicine and Public Health at Flinders.

"The result of these experiments is a virus that is highly virulent in humans but is sufficiently different that it no longer resembles the original bat virus," Petrovsky said in a statement from the Australian Media Center. "Because the mutations are acquired randomly by selection, there is no signature of a human gene jockey, but this is clearly a virus still created by human intervention."


http://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-complicated-origins.html
Title: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 18, 2020, 09:54:02 PM
China falsely telling Arab world U.S. behind coronavirus
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/18/china-falsely-telling-arab-world-us-source-coronav/

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 19, 2020, 11:42:57 AM
The US is telling the world that the virus started in Wuhan, which possibly isn't true, either ....

http://metro.co.uk/2020/04/18/coronavirus-may-started-september-scientists-say-12576961/ (http://metro.co.uk/2020/04/18/coronavirus-may-started-september-scientists-say-12576961/)

"it may not have started in the Chinese city of Wuhan as is widely believed. Researchers from the University of Cambridge are trying to trace the origins of the deadly disease by mapping its genetic history to patient zero. So far they have mapped out its journey from China, to Australia, Europe then the rest of the world. The scientists have found three distinct but related variants of the bug more prevalent in different parts of the world. Having created a network using over 1,000 coronavirus genomes, researchers believe the pandemic kicked off some time between September 13 and December 7. Team leader Dr Peter Forster says finding out where the virus really originated is crucial to stop a future pandemic

Type A of coronavirus is believed to be the original human virus genome and the closest to the type of Covid-19 found in bats. It has been found in Chinese and American patients but it is not China’s most common variant. The People’s Republic along with Britain and Europe has mostly been hit with type B – the variant found most often in Wuhan, Hubei Province which was in circulation as early as Christmas Eve."

But about 500 miles away in Guandong province, seven of 11 samples found in patients were found to be variant A, casting doubt on the origin of the outbreak. Dr Foster says the theory that coronavirus originated at a seafood market in Wuhan is looking increasingly unlikely. A study in the Lancet showed some of the first patients had never been there."






Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 19, 2020, 12:14:41 PM


No one can say for certain where the virus originated.   Because the Chinese have refused access to their Genome tracking and have hidden all of the researchers who did the work on the genome from access by Western countries.   Including the researcher mentioned in the previous post.  Absent that crucial trail of crumbs, no one is certain.   Except, of course, Moby.  (True to form.  Trollers gotta troll.) 

China got a great big guilty sign on its forehead, but there are people who will ignore it simply to aggravate readers.

It is only a matter of time before some of this missing information leaks out.  Then we will know for certain.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 19, 2020, 01:56:34 PM
Researchers from the University of Cambridge are trying to trace the origins of the deadly disease by mapping its genetic history to patient zero.

Ah ha!  The esoteric field of evolutionary virology.  It will be very helpful in understanding the origin and spread of the disease.  The Chinese destroyed much of the evidence, yet have co-operated in other regards.   



Quote
Dr Foster says the theory that coronavirus originated at a seafood market in Wuhan is looking increasingly unlikely. A study in the Lancet showed some of the first patients had never been there."

Old news. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 19, 2020, 02:28:03 PM

No one can say for certain where the virus originated.  Except, of course, Moby.  (True to form.  Trollers gotta troll.) 

Jone, I realise you get butt-hurt when I point out your serial fails and this is but another one ..

I said, "The US is telling the world that the virus started in Wuhan, which possibly isn't true, either ....

You started this thread with an IF China.. and despite your, "No one can say for certain where the virus originated", conveniently have forgotten same ....


Now, it's


"China got a great big guilty sign on its forehead"..

Old news. 

'Old' but possibly quite vital, in that Wuhan seems to be a red herring ...


Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: LAman on April 19, 2020, 03:11:58 PM
The US is telling the world that the virus started in Wuhan, which possibly isn't true, either ....

http://metro.co.uk/2020/04/18/coronavirus-may-started-september-scientists-say-12576961/ (http://metro.co.uk/2020/04/18/coronavirus-may-started-september-scientists-say-12576961/)

"it may not have started in the Chinese city of Wuhan as is widely believed. Researchers from the University of Cambridge are trying to trace the origins of the deadly disease by mapping its genetic history to patient zero. So far they have mapped out its journey from China, to Australia, Europe then the rest of the world. The scientists have found three distinct but related variants of the bug more prevalent in different parts of the world. Having created a network using over 1,000 coronavirus genomes, researchers believe the pandemic kicked off some time between September 13 and December 7. Team leader Dr Peter Forster says finding out where the virus really originated is crucial to stop a future pandemic

Type A of coronavirus is believed to be the original human virus genome and the closest to the type of Covid-19 found in bats. It has been found in Chinese and American patients but it is not China’s most common variant. The People’s Republic along with Britain and Europe has mostly been hit with type B – the variant found most often in Wuhan, Hubei Province which was in circulation as early as Christmas Eve."

But about 500 miles away in Guandong province, seven of 11 samples found in patients were found to be variant A, casting doubt on the origin of the outbreak. Dr Foster says the theory that coronavirus originated at a seafood market in Wuhan is looking increasingly unlikely. A study in the Lancet showed some of the first patients had never been there."

You do know that is old news. It was published on Friday. Same article on 2 different sites, Look at posts #255 BillyB, #259BC
I even referenced it in #260.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 19, 2020, 03:44:36 PM

Every major nation has experimented with biological weapons. For China, the only level 4 bio lab in the country to handle the most dangerous viruses that could be designed for war is in Wuhan.

The more I think about it, the more SARS-COV-2 is an excellent virus for war if only a vaccine existed to protect the army and nation that chooses to use it. The virus has a case fatality rate higher than most viruses. It also allows some people to silently carry and become super spreaders. An outbreak on military ships will quickly put ships out of commission. A highly contagious disease will demoralize troops and their will to fight. Politically, it will divide and increase finger pointing and blame. The virus damages economy, the engine to fund a war. The virus damages industry, the engine to create machines and supplies for war. Could China possess a more efficient virus for war? Possibly but they won't let anybody investigate the lab in Wuhan.

If China is truly innocent, it would be best they invite experts to inspect the labs, go over documents, and offer to pay for an army of international people to find the animals that are infected with the virus....but they can't. There's no doubt in my mind there's an American military satellite watching the lab in Wuhan constantly to see if they will move out equipment and documents the same way Saddam Hussein play games with international inspectors in the 90's. Who knows? America probably already has it on video the lab moving out documents and equipment. Although Trump says there will be an investigation, he probably already seen some hard evidence to have brought it up to the media and world. If Trump has evidence, he will probably use it for leverage to get some things from China. Releasing the evidence to the world right now wont' get us paid back for the damage done so it's best to use evidence as a bargaining chip. That's what I'd do if I were President. Don't expect evidence to be release soon or ever.
Title: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 19, 2020, 03:58:21 PM
....but they can't.

They are commies, they couldn't tell the truth if they tried.

We need to gradually phase China out. We can phase them out
of our economy, our schools, our industry and our manufacturing.
We don't need cold hard scientific proof. They will deny whatever
comes out anyway.

We need a report to justify scaling back China and it's intersection
with the US and our economy. One thing that we need is somebody
to identify their propaganda arm and the politicians they give money
to.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 19, 2020, 04:19:31 PM
If Trump has evidence, he will probably use it for leverage to get some things from China. Releasing the evidence to the world right now wont' get us paid back for the damage done so it's best to use evidence as a bargaining chip. That's what I'd do if I were President. Don't expect evidence to be release soon or ever.

It must feel awful silly resorting to discourse fallacies, touting as brilliant all which can neither be proven nor disproven.  In layman terms, 'hiding under a rock', 'head in the sand', or 'where the sun doesn't shine'.

ignorantiam ad nauseam
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 19, 2020, 05:00:50 PM
It must feel awful silly resorting to discourse fallacies, touting as brilliant all which can neither be proven nor disproven.  In layman terms, 'hiding under a rock', 'head in the sand', or 'where the sun doesn't shine'.

ignorantiam ad nauseam

Wow.  Are you Catholic?  ;)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 19, 2020, 07:36:38 PM
Jone, I realise you get butt-hurt when I point out your serial fails and this is but another one ..

I said, "The US is telling the world that the virus started in Wuhan, which possibly isn't true, either ....

You started this thread with an IF China.. and despite your, "No one can say for certain where the virus originated", conveniently have forgotten same ....


Now, it's


"China got a great big guilty sign on its forehead"..

'Old' but possibly quite vital, in that Wuhan seems to be a red herring ...
Nailed him...with 'jone' it was never IF, he was just pretending to be reasonable, his mind was already made up, and will present, encourage,  and create evidence to try to support his early conclusion. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 19, 2020, 07:40:42 PM
China falsely telling Arab world U.S. behind coronavirus
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/18/china-falsely-telling-arab-world-us-source-coronav/
We in the US are busy attempting to demonize China.   China's message is going to resonate with a lot of people based on the history of the US.   China isn't sending their military around the globe instigating conflicts.  China didn't drop nuclear bombs on nations in the past.  China didn't fabricate 'evidence' to try to convince the world it was ok to attack other nations.  China didn't try to create circumstances for coups in many spanish speaking nations south ot the US border.    It isn't surprising that the Chinese narrative gets a fair amount of play, whether it be true or not.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 19, 2020, 08:54:09 PM
It must feel awful silly resorting to discourse fallacies, touting as brilliant all which can neither be proven nor disproven.  In layman terms, 'hiding under a rock', 'head in the sand', or 'where the sun doesn't shine'.

ignorantiam ad nauseam

BC, sounds like you feel there's nothing that can be proved or disproven. This whole time you never criticized once China may be to blame for the death and ruined economy in Italy, not to mention the world. You scared evidence may be found against China forcing you and your nation to take action that you don't want? It's so much more comforting to blame Trump for all this mess, isn't it?

I hope Trump will find evidence of China's negligence and use it to recover some of what America lost instead of disclosing the evidence for free getting nothing in return.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 19, 2020, 09:19:44 PM

I hope Trump will find evidence of China's negligence and use it to recover some of what America lost instead of disclosing the evidence for free getting nothing in return.
We owe china trillions because of their hard work and our laziness. Weaseling out of our debt is what it all boils down to for people like jone trying to pin blame on china.  I don't think we will be able to do that without consequences.  If the US can't elevate itself through work, we will do it through dirty tricks, we have proven that over and over again through the decades.   

Here is an informative science based non-partisan article talking about how coronavirus wasn't produced in a lab in china.

The coronavirus was not engineered in a lab. Here's how we know.

.....One persistent myth is that this virus, called SARS-CoV-2, was made by scientists and escaped from a lab in Wuhan, China, where the outbreak began.

A new analysis of SARS-CoV-2 may finally put that latter idea to bed. A group of researchers compared the genome of this novel coronavirus with the seven other coronaviruses known to infect humans: SARS, MERS and SARS-CoV-2, which can cause severe disease; along with HK......

 http://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html?fbclid=IwAR2qX-Z34WVwL3YM8HvVwZij5NxKzF7trIWIDFfd_2xvoxfNoqW06qfSuKY   (http://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html?fbclid=IwAR2qX-Z34WVwL3YM8HvVwZij5NxKzF7trIWIDFfd_2xvoxfNoqW06qfSuKY)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 19, 2020, 09:27:55 PM

Here is an informative science based non-partisan article talking about how coronavirus wasn't produced in a lab in china.

The coronavirus was not engineered in a lab. Here's how we know.

.....One persistent myth is that this virus, called SARS-CoV-2, was made by scientists and escaped from a lab in Wuhan, China, where the outbreak began.

A new analysis of SARS-CoV-2 may finally put that latter idea to bed. A group of researchers compared the genome of this novel coronavirus with the seven other coronaviruses known to infect humans: SARS, MERS and SARS-CoV-2, which can cause severe disease; along with HK......

 http://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html?fbclid=IwAR2qX-Z34WVwL3YM8HvVwZij5NxKzF7trIWIDFfd_2xvoxfNoqW06qfSuKY   (http://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html?fbclid=IwAR2qX-Z34WVwL3YM8HvVwZij5NxKzF7trIWIDFfd_2xvoxfNoqW06qfSuKY)

Twice already I've addressed articles like that. They rely on the Nature Medicine article. If you go to the Nature Medicine article, the authors of the article didn't do their own research of the virus. Their references state the studies were done by Chinese scientists in China. The livescience link you provide is from a month ago, Check out my livescience article from 2 days ago below. The virus may have come from a lab and humans could have helped it evolve. The virology experts in that article aren't Chinese State controlled.

The Wuhan lab does work with the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2, which is a bat coronavirus called RaTG13, evolutionary virologist Edward Holmes, of the Charles Perkins Center and the Marie Bashir Institute for Infectious Diseases and Biosecurity at the University of Sydney, said in a statement from the Australian Media Center. But, he added, "the level of genome sequence divergence between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 is equivalent to an average of 50 years (and at least 20 years) of evolutionary change." (That means that in the wild, it would take about 50 years for these viruses to evolve to be as different as they are.)

Though no scientists have come forth with even a speck of evidence that humans knowingly manipulated a virus using some sort of genetic engineering, a researcher at Flinders University in South Australia lays out another scenario that involves human intervention. Bat coronaviruses can be cultured in lab dishes with cells that have the human ACE2 receptor; over time, the virus will gain adaptations that let it efficiently bind to those receptors. Along the way, that virus would pick up random genetic mutations that pop up but don't do anything noticeable, said Nikolai Petrovsky, in the College of Medicine and Public Health at Flinders.

"The result of these experiments is a virus that is highly virulent in humans but is sufficiently different that it no longer resembles the original bat virus," Petrovsky said in a statement from the Australian Media Center. "Because the mutations are acquired randomly by selection, there is no signature of a human gene jockey, but this is clearly a virus still created by human intervention."

http://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-complicated-origins.html

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 20, 2020, 01:00:34 AM
Wow.  Are you Catholic?  ;)

No, agnostic ;) 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 20, 2020, 01:32:12 AM
BC, sounds like you feel there's nothing that can be proved or disproven.

At this point in time that is indeed the case with this virus.

Quote
This whole time you never criticized once China may be to blame for the death and ruined economy in Italy, not to mention the world. You scared evidence may be found against China forcing you and your nation to take action that you don't want?

On what basis should I throw stones?  Suspicions, guesses, conjecture, what others believe, or what BillyB believes?  I'll simply await the facts and draw my conclusions at that time.

Quote
It's so much more comforting to blame Trump for all this mess, isn't it?

I haven't blamed Trump for the virus.  Should I?

Quote
I hope Trump will find evidence of China's negligence and use it to recover some of what America lost instead of disclosing the evidence for free getting nothing in return.

Trump is incapable of finding evidence.  Scientists and other investigators all over the globe might.  Much of what Italy, 'America' and all other countries are losing is due to inaction, mistakes and bad timing, maybe throw in a bit of ignorant/arrogant exacerbation with one country in particular.  It is not like we knew nothing and were totally blind sighted.  Of all, we in the US had the most time to prepare.  Need evidence?  Just look at early posts in RWD virus-related threads.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 20, 2020, 07:06:17 AM
I'll simply await the facts and draw my conclusions at that time.


Your choice. Don't get worked up people on the forum are doing their homework instead of believing a CNN article written by one journalist. I don't know why you decided to wait for facts on this one issue. You had a habit of making plenty of predictions America was going to be bad off like Italy in the past. My prediction was only NY was going to get hit hard because they didn't take it seriously until it was too late.


I haven't blamed Trump for the virus. 


Plenty of times you've blamed Trump for more people getting the virus than they should have based off his actions. Sweden did less and acted slower than Trump but you don't criticize them. Trump certainly acted more appropriately than Italy. You don't like to criticize World leaders that are to the left of Trump. I've criticized leaders to the right of Trump many times.


Trump is incapable of finding evidence.  Scientists and other investigators all over the globe might. 


You're already formulating an argument so Trump doesn't get any credit. No one person can go find evidence in China. Trump is the only person in America that can order a large scale investigation of a team of people into another nation. He can order many spies to go into China, rewards for information, and special forces to extract witnesses willing to talk if he wanted to. Didn't you give Obama credit for finding, and then going into Pakistan to kill Osama Bin Laden or when he ordered 3 Somali pirates getting shot for hijacking an American tanker? I did.



Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 20, 2020, 08:10:14 AM
Your choice. Don't get worked up people on the forum are doing their homework instead of believing a CNN article written by one journalist. I don't know why you decided to wait for facts on this one issue. You had a habit of making plenty of predictions America was going to be bad off like Italy in the past. My prediction was only NY was going to get hit hard because they didn't take it seriously until it was too late.

Oh.. so google will give the results and answers on your homework quiz?

It ain't over in Italy, nor is it over in the US. Will it bounce back in another city or not?  Neither of us knows Billy...

Quote
Plenty of times you've blamed Trump for more people getting the virus than they should have based off his actions. Sweden did less and acted slower than Trump but you don't criticize them. Trump certainly acted more appropriately than Italy. You don't like to criticize World leaders that are to the left of Trump. I've criticized leaders to the right of Trump many times.

You must have missed my posts regarding Sweden.  You must have also missed my posts criticizing how things were done here also in the beginning, that a weeks difference in lockdown could have saved half.  You are shooting from the hip again, or ankle.

Quote
You're already formulating an argument so Trump doesn't get any credit. No one person can go find evidence in China. Trump is the only person in America that can order a large scale investigation of a team of people into another nation. He can order many spies to go into China, rewards for information, and special forces to extract witnesses willing to talk if he wanted to. Didn't you give Obama credit for finding, and then going into Pakistan to kill Osama Bin Laden or when he ordered 3 Somali pirates getting shot for hijacking an American tanker? I did.

Formulating an argument?  I'm just saying what is happening.. But ok Trump is going to send in spies, find out all kinds of stuff, use it for trade negotiation leverage, and not even tell you.  I'm sure you'll be happy with that but do me one little favour, don't try to keep selling that line to me.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 20, 2020, 08:40:36 AM
But ok Trump is going to send in spies, find out all kinds of stuff, use it for trade negotiation leverage, and not even tell you.



Did JFK got a lot of credit for keeping the Soviet nukes out of Cuba but did he tell Americans what he had to give up? There are many things done behind closed doors without the need for Americans to know.

Sure Trump and other smart people will figure out how we can recoup some losses. If we find evidence and simply throw it out there, China will go on with a big propaganda war. They may submit fabricated evidence and get half the world to believe America did it. Iran's propaganda worked for awhile getting many people to believe the Ukrainian passenger jet had mechanical problems or America shot it down in retaliation for the missiles they sent into Iraq. A Chinese propaganda war will get many people in the world angry at America and they will boycott our products. Trump knows a Chinese propaganda war will work on 100% of the people but it will work to some extent in harming America. Why would we want all that over a stupid lab worker accident? Sure Trump and many people want China to pay but the best way to get them to pay is not to humiliate them. Trump may disclose evidence to our allies and as a group, figure out the best way forward or he may figure he'll keep the evidence and go after China himself. We know the prominent scientists that work in that lab. We may be able to get someone to talk in exchange for a green card....and take care of them for life.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 20, 2020, 08:59:35 AM
Good lord Billy... that makes as much sense as a penny in a drawer full nuts and bolts.  You forgot to throw in the kitchen sink.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 20, 2020, 10:49:23 AM
I think we're all waiting for more evidence and valid authorities to chime in on the origins of the pandemic.  I have yet to see anything that could be contrived as a conclusion as to how the virus originated.   So, if one starts from that perspective, then everything is on the table.   However, as I've stated before, there are many bullet points that do point back to the Institute of Virology.   There really aren't any bullet points that point to other specific origins of the virus.  Only disparate facts that might be anecdotal.

If one were to couple the bullet points with the Chinese efforts at hiding information and people involved at the outbreak of the disease, it looks like China is guilty.   But such assumptions are (and my humor here) not bullet proof.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on April 20, 2020, 01:12:20 PM
But such assumptions are (and my humor here) not bullet proof.

Assume is an acronym for makes an Ass out of u and me.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 02:11:35 PM
Here is another thought to ponder. 

I suggest that we should not now take a hard approach against China.  At least not now.   

The sonofabitches may very well be the first to develop a vaccine to COVID-19.  Their safety standards are not those of the FDA, and given their history of stealing Intellectual Property, they maybe have already been testing a number of possibly viable vaccines on a million or so people.

Think about the implications if China is first to develop a proven vaccine.   Holy batshit, Batman. 

Conspiracy theory people can now talk about whether China already has a vaccine and put it in Wuhan's water.   ;D   

If we are the first to develop a vaccine........   
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 20, 2020, 02:14:14 PM
Johnson and Johnson already has a vaccine.   But it won't begin significant testing until September.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 02:30:21 PM
Johnson and Johnson already has a vaccine.   But it won't begin significant testing until September.

So does Moderna, and it is in Phase One Test (a year away for public use at best). There are other pharma companies attempting the same. 

Let's hope one succeeds.  History has a high percentage of failed vaccine tests. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 20, 2020, 02:38:37 PM
I suggest that we should not now take a hard approach against China.  At least not now.   

The sonofabitches may very well be the first to develop a vaccine to COVID-19. 


That's an excellent point. Getting a vaccine is the most important thing of all right now even if it came from China.

At a briefing Trump said “A mistake is a mistake,” the president said. “But if China was knowingly responsible, there will be consequences.”

http://news.yahoo.com/trump-suggests-china-wont-be-punished-if-coronavirus-was-a-mistake-224719121.html

My feeling it was a mistake/accident whether it came from a meat market or lab. But the Chinese silencing whistleblowers was real, the misleading WHO and other nations was real, and if it did come from a lab, experimenting on the virus may have violated treaties pertaining to biological weapons bans. China's negligence alone is worth punishing them for. But the form of punishment may not come from governments but in the loss of customers who'd refuse to buy Made in China. My mom said China will try to get around that. She says they get around tariffs by shipping to Vietnam first with Made in Vietnam on the products and then put the products on a boat to America.


History has a high percentage of failed vaccine tests. 


The good news is there has never been so much money thrown at labs all over the world to work on a vaccine. Every lab capable of creating vaccines is doing so with government funding or government guns pointing at them.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 21, 2020, 05:59:07 AM
Gator:  The sonofabitches may very well be the first to develop a vaccine to COVID-19.

- - - - - -

But developing a vaccine is not the breakthrough.

Proving it is the test.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 21, 2020, 09:50:02 AM
The sonofabitches may very well be the first to develop a vaccine to COVID-19.

- - - - - -

But developing a vaccine is not the breakthrough.

Proving it is the test.

It is par for the course that someone else might develop a vaccine and China appropriates it and files patents in China for it.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on April 21, 2020, 12:46:05 PM
Gator:  The sonofabitches may very well be the first to develop a vaccine to COVID-19.

- - - - - -

But developing a vaccine is not the breakthrough.

Proving it is the test.

And a few sentences later in the same post, I wrote:  "Think about the implications if China is first to develop a proven vaccine.  Holy batshit, Batman."

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on April 21, 2020, 02:12:30 PM
And a few sentences later in the same post, I wrote:  "Think about the implications if China is first to develop a proven vaccine.  Holy batshit, Batman."

OK, missed that in my haste to criticize !!  :-)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: jone on April 21, 2020, 05:54:38 PM
Here's an interesting statistic:

1.  China's annual flu deaths (a number which they meticulously update) was 91,814 in 2018. 

2.  China's total deaths from COVID 19, a figure that the Chinese Communist Party swears by, is 4632. 

Accordingly, China only has 5% of deaths by COVID 19 that they do by flu.

Here's some other topics of conversation: 

The State of Missouri is suing the People's Republic of China and the Chinese Communist Party:   The reason?  Hiding the virus from the world (and the people of Missouri) until it was too late to respond.

Various conservative personalities are now suggesting that China be stripped of the Winter Olympics in 2022.

Finally, it seems that leader of North Korea is gravely ill.   Following heart surgery, Kim Jong Un was listed as critical.   One of the theories going around is that the Chinese doctor who treated him was infected with COVID 19.
Title: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: 2tallbill on April 22, 2020, 06:21:00 AM
OK, missed that in my haste to criticize !!  :-)

In my opinion we should gently phase China out of our lives and
economy. We could pass a few simple laws that would help phase
them out.

1. Require a label on everything and anything produced in China.
2. Require a visa for anyone from China and restrict the number.
3. Make a list of products like drugs and a few other things
requiring that they are made elsewhere.
4. Make a mirror law each year that exactly copies one of China's
laws on something that they import into the USA.
5. Have a plan when they blatantly break an agreement or steal
something. 

Slowly phase them out.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on April 22, 2020, 07:15:42 AM
..and what device are you writing on and I'll tl you how much of it is Chinese....

All electronics come with the place they are assembled...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: fathertime on April 22, 2020, 07:27:54 AM
.

1. Require a label on everything and anything produced in China.
 
As long as the US consumer winds up paying for all this pointless labeling...which of course would be the case one way or another.


2. Require a visa for anyone from China and restrict the number. 

Shoot ourselves in the foot.  Chinese tourists are free spenders.  Why would we want to make it difficult for them to spend their hard earned money here?  Make them feel unwelcome enough and their money will spent in Russia, or in China, or Iceland, or anywhere other than the US. 

In my opinion we should gently phase China out of our lives and
economy. 
Slowly phase them out.

Perhaps we should be making more of our own goods.  This has to do with US, not China.  We can blame ourselves.  The Chinese sweat and make our stuff.  If you want US citizens to sweat and make our stuff, then find the workforce willing to do all that work, while kicking out the illegal aliens, and making the US unwelcome to immigrants.    We got a problem and the problem is us. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 24, 2020, 09:23:37 AM

After criticizing China for its handling of the crisis, Chinese journalist shows back up after being detained for 2 months. He said "God bless China". Reeducation camps do work! The other journalists and doctors will probably reappear after they graduate too.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/chinese-citizen-journalist-missing-for-2-months-after-reporting-on-coronavirus-in-wuhan-reappears/ar-BB135bvH?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: tfcrew on April 24, 2020, 03:15:35 PM

Finally, it seems that leader of North Korea is gravely ill.   Following heart surgery, Kim Jong Un was listed as critical.   One of the theories going around is that the Chinese doctor who treated him was infected with COVID 19.


(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz042320dAPR20200424044506.jpg)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 24, 2020, 07:12:12 PM

Report says China forced EU to change some of its language in it's CIVID-19 report so don't expect the EU to come down hard on China when they come out with a statement.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pressured-by-china-eu-softens-report-on-covid-19-disinformation/ar-BB139KxP?ocid=spartanntp


WHO has a group of nations formed up to find a vaccine. They are asking USA and China to join in.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/dollar8-billion-effort-aims-to-speed-development-of-coronavirus-vaccines-and-treatments/ar-BB13a2CA?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 26, 2020, 10:50:29 AM

China, trying to redeem itself, has been working really hard to find a vaccine and treatments for COVID-19.

HACK ATTACK (http://www.engadget.com/us-blames-china-for-covid-19-research-hacks-171706759.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cueWFob28uY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEnoS87_-86KjMkxMGWcCbRfIBznvM5DuursII2ii4suVjaCjNSqqt_KyHkxfc00FLPrc31Qpk2kEqzB-b2Yn3wDaOBqrBTGoEKUzOhF7LWkFnOVcU-7FmQQAIZ_9HiStIEuBtdfutJ7JM1IIOmHRBibqvnOIPHMqKNnntxp_Pd1)
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 27, 2020, 09:21:31 PM

Sen Graham is asking the Democrats to help pass a bill to have China close the wet markets, free Hong Kong prisoners and fully cooperate with any Coronavirus investigations. Punishment for not complying is sanctions on certain Chinese officials, seizure of their assets, cut China off from American financial institutions, shut down visas and travel, and close America off to China. Will the Democrats punish or defend China? 57,000 Americans dead and 26 million out of work due to Chinese negligence and deception.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VreJQCDQpb8
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on April 30, 2020, 12:24:05 AM

Nigeria, a nation who has a reputation for being honest and not scamming anyone ever has reported a whopping 44 people dead and are pissed at China. They are suing for 200 billion in damages.

Egypt is preparing for a 10 trillion dollar lawsuit against China.

It is believe an Italian Consumers association Codacons is hiring an American firm to sue China.

53 quadrillion dollar class action lawsuit filed by RWD against China because a lot of people got their feelings hurt fighting over the coronavirus. Who wants in on it?

http://www.latintimes.com/nigeria-prepares-file-200bn-worth-lawsuit-against-china-over-covid-19-economic-damage-458056
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on May 18, 2020, 04:45:10 PM
China is no longer opposing a WHO-led review of the covid-19 outbreak, yet it seems to be a setup.   


From the Washington Post: 

Quote
China’s opposition has melted in recent days as international support for an inquiry grew to include Russia, Turkey and European and African countries, and as drafts of the proposed resolution showed a focus on international collaboration to manage the pandemic, with relatively limited emphasis on questioning its source.
 

The phrase in bold does not make me feel better, nor the US administration.

Quote
  Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar, who represented the United States at the virtual meeting, used his speech to accuse the WHO of allowing China to cover up the outbreak.  “We must be frank about one of the primary reasons that this outbreak spun out of control,” he said. “There was a failure by this organization [WHO] to obtain the information that the world needed, and that failure cost many lives.”
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on May 18, 2020, 04:49:23 PM
Nigeria, a nation who has a reputation for being honest and not scamming anyone ever has reported a whopping 44 people dead and are pissed at China. They are suing for 200 billion in damages.

Egypt is preparing for a 10 trillion dollar lawsuit against China.

It is believe an Italian Consumers association Codacons is hiring an American firm to sue China.

53 quadrillion dollar class action lawsuit filed by RWD against China because a lot of people got their feelings hurt fighting over the coronavirus. Who wants in on it?

http://www.latintimes.com/nigeria-prepares-file-200bn-worth-lawsuit-against-china-over-covid-19-economic-damage-458056

Lawsuits lack legal merit. Best boycott Kung Pao Chicken instead...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on May 18, 2020, 10:21:51 PM
China is no longer opposing a WHO-led review of the covid-19 outbreak, yet it seems to be a setup.   


The language of what is to be investigated was severely weakened so China wouldn't veto. An investigation needs to happen without the UN/WHO's participation if we want to learn the truth.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on May 19, 2020, 04:38:31 AM
The language of what is to be investigated was severely weakened so China wouldn't veto. An investigation needs to happen without the UN/WHO's participation if we want to learn the truth.

The truth will come out only if China and WHO 1) release all documents to an independent investigator  (and have not altered or deleted documents) and 2) allows the investigator access to interview any and all participants.     

In other words, it will never happen.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: ML on May 19, 2020, 07:25:45 AM
China is no longer opposing a WHO-led review of the covid-19 outbreak, yet it seems to be a setup.   

The truth will come out only if China and WHO 1) release all documents to an independent investigator  (and have not altered or deleted documents) and 2) allows the investigator access to interview any and all participants.     

In other words, it will never happen.

I envy the oriental's ability to seem to agree with something (or agree to do something), gaining the goodwill of the other party, yet never intending at all to do what they say.

They must remark among themselves about the gullibility and stupidity of westerners who have put up with this and fallen for this for hundreds of years or more . . . and really belly laugh each time they pull it off again.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on May 20, 2020, 01:07:47 AM
I envy the oriental's ability to seem to agree with something (or agree to do something), gaining the goodwill of the other party, yet never intending at all to do what they say.


Is this really something that can be attributed only to folks living in the far east?  We only have to look at the current resident of the WH to see the same tactics used, without the cultural aspect of 'face', in fact just the opposite, 'in your face'.

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on May 20, 2020, 04:13:10 AM
Is this really something that can be attributed only to folks living in the far east?  We only have to look at the current resident of the WH to see the same tactics used, without the cultural aspect of 'face', in fact just the opposite, 'in your face'.

Three examples please.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on May 20, 2020, 04:25:02 AM
Three examples please.

Challenge accepted #1

Remember this virus ( 'from Chia') 'it was nothing to worry about ... it would be gone.. like a miracle'..

The occupant of the WH seems to have changed his tune and  wilfully risks his citizens lives...  with his actions / inactions ..
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on May 20, 2020, 04:57:04 AM
Three examples please.

Sheez Gator, they are all over the place...

Quote
The only thing I will ask you though is on the wall, you and I both have a political problem. My people stand up and say, “Mexico will pay for the wall” and your people probably say something in a similar but slightly different language. But the fact is we are both in a little bit of a political bind because I have to have Mexico pay for the wall – I have to. I have been talking about it for a two year period, and the reason I say they are going to pay for the wall is because Mexico has made a fortune out of the stupidity of U.S. trade representatives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r217sWSsWU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE2XHYxkJgw

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/donald-trump-i-will-release-tax-returns-607836227723?v=raila&




Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on May 20, 2020, 05:03:19 AM
BC,

'Thank you', I was going to be gentler with Gator .. small doses, not overwhelming knockout drops ...
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on May 20, 2020, 05:23:43 AM
BC,

'Thank you', I was going to be gentler with Gator .. small doses, not overwhelming knockout drops ...


Very little effort was expended in the creation of the post.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on May 20, 2020, 05:47:34 AM
Hhhhmmm. None in your post even remotely exemplified the context made in ML’s post. This is what he said...

I envy the oriental's ability to seem to agree with something (or agree to do something), gaining the goodwill of the other party, yet never intending at all to do what they say

You posted things that suggested Trump was lying.

1. Mexico IS paying for the wall. Not directly but USMCA re calibrated the trades to gain revenue enough to eventually pay for the wall.
2. 5 million tests/day was an estimate given to him by his folks. He delivered the message and even mentioned how he got the information.
3. I will give you the subject of tax returns. Although not much came out of the matter when someone illegally leaked one of his return and MSNBC blundered itself when it blew up in its face on TV.

Now...in same vein guess how many times did Obama LIED. That will really be easy, from redlines to keeping your doctor - period to pork barrel spending will stop to ISIL is JV, etc...Most of all, I doubt Trump have the compunction to be as corrupt as that stooge.

Doped and Chained baby!
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on May 20, 2020, 08:42:08 AM
Shucks GQ, you are quicker than  me. 

I was awaiting the BC examples having a good idea of what they would be, and then reply with worse examples regarding Obama. 

2tall could add more to the list, buy why. 

Quote
Most of all I doubt Trump have the compunction to be as corrupt as that stooge.   


You are correct.  Trump is many things, such as a narcissist, yet he is not corrupt.  He has been investigated more than any recent President and the investigations have found nothing.   Now the "investigation of how the investigations started" is uncovering much wrongdoing by the prior administration and its holdovers plus Trump's political opponents.   So who is corrupt? 

Upon examination of Obama's record, can anyone say Obama was not corrupt in how he exercised power?   I believe by comparison that Obama is smarter and smoother than Trump, but that does not make Trump any less of a man.  Trump and Obama have both made mistakes, yet the difference is Trump has accomplished more of what we needed.     

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BillyB on May 20, 2020, 10:21:58 AM
can anyone say Obama was not corrupt in how he exercised power?
   

Obama didn't know about the unmasking of Flynn, Hillary's secret server, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, or his Attorney General meeting Bill Clinton on the tarmac. It's always someone under him that did the dirty work. He's innocent and the buck doesn't stop with him.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on May 20, 2020, 10:38:02 AM
Obama didn't know about the unmasking of Flynn, Hillary's secret server, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, or his Attorney General meeting Bill Clinton on the tarmac. It's always someone under him that did the dirty work. He's innocent and the buck doesn't stop with him.

I guess it was the same as some want to believe about Cheney and Bush - Biden directed all the moves and kept Obama in the dark. 
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: GQBlues on May 20, 2020, 10:46:45 AM
Obama didn't know about the unmasking of Flynn, Hillary's secret server, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, or his Attorney General meeting Bill Clinton on the tarmac. It's always someone under him that did the dirty work. He's innocent and the buck doesn't stop with him.

He didn't know anything about the VA/IRS scandal. He didn't know you can't keep your doctor soon as ACA kicked in either. PERIOD. He also didn't know Asaad used chemical weapons because otherwise he would've crossed Obama's redline. He also didn't know ISIL isn't really a JV team...he didn't know that the 2009 omnibus bill he signed is full of pork, too...and that the S-CHIP bill Pelosi had him signed was rejected twice by Bush, and voted down by 3 western states. He didn't know Michael Brown was the one who attacked the police and there was no 'Hands up, don't shoot' BS. He didn't know that Henry Gates was the 'jerk' and not the Cambridge police...

I can keep this a while, but why bother?
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on June 03, 2020, 01:08:36 AM
http://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/sars-cov-2-looks-like-a-hybrid-of-viruses-from-two-different-species/
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: Gator on June 03, 2020, 05:11:35 AM
http://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/sars-cov-2-looks-like-a-hybrid-of-viruses-from-two-different-species/

A good article that simplifies the complicated evolution of the SARS-CoV-2 virus responsible for the pandemic.  It is another study  suggesting this was not a laboratory experiment, yet IMO implicates the wet markets as having the biologic rich "soup" giving an opportunity for the evolution of the virus.   

Quote
  ....a key stretch of the spike protein, the one that determines which proteins on human cells it interacts with, came from a pangolin version of the virus through recombination.
   

Alarmingly, this could happen again.  The question is "when," not "if." 

Quote
   All of which suggests that additional pandemics are a question of when, rather than if. But, of course, that had already been suggested in the aftermath of MERS and the original SARS, and the world as a whole did remarkably little to study the risk, work toward treatments, or plan for the pandemic's arrival. We can only hope that the more obvious example of COVID-19 will change that. 

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: BC on June 03, 2020, 06:15:58 AM
Alarmingly, this could happen again.  The question is "when," not "if." 

Indeed, that is the case.  We can only position ourselves to be better prepared than this time around.
Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on June 03, 2020, 06:59:43 AM
The UK govt had the results of a 'pandemic response exercise' from just over 3 years ago ... Did they adopt any of the recommendations from the report findings ?  Why  have even tried to keep the results secret ? ..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/labour-urges-government-publish-findings-2016-pandemic-drill (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/labour-urges-government-publish-findings-2016-pandemic-drill)

Title: Re: If China is Really Responsible......
Post by: msmob on June 09, 2020, 02:22:42 AM
'My' stat shows hich nation isn't doing to well, NOW

'Trampu' told the sheele that China is responsible..

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/09/conspiracies-covid-19-lab-false-pandemic

Ignore the conspiracies: scientists know Covid-19 wasn't created in a lab

 Our report firmly concludes that Covid-19 originated in bats, in a hotspot of viral evolution along the border of Yunnan province in China, Myanmar, Laos and Vietnam.