Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Experienced => Topic started by: brownbeard99 on April 12, 2019, 08:17:14 AM

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 12, 2019, 08:17:14 AM
So, I have almost two months total time in Ukraine now. I think I am learning at least a little. But.... Okay, so I met this girl in a website after I was in Kiev. I am always cautious when I meet a girl who has a blank profile, but she was really friendly over WhatsApp, so I decided to meet her.

When I met this girl, I was blown away. Her pictures online were pretty conservative, but she was drop dead gorgeous in real life... even when compared to other Ukrainian girls.  She is 34, never been married and has one of the sexiest bodies I have ever seen in my life. I asked her if she would ever like to be famous, and for what, she said she would like to be a Victoria’s secret model... in all seriousness, she could be one if she was a little taller.

When I asked this girl out, she agreed, but asked if I minded giving her 500 UAH for gas. She was borrowing her aunt’s car and wanted money for gas. She lives a little outside Kiev... but I also know this is more than the actual cost for gas. 

This girl is really sweet, and not full of herself. I can imagine she is used to having men fall over themselves for her... so if she is expecting men to pay for things, it is not much of a surprise.

We went on one date and it was nice... very formal. After dinner, I told her that I needed to get some hair clippers. She said she would take me to a place she knew because she had to get some other things.  She got some basic toiletries and I offered to pay.  She was very appreciative.  At the end of the date, she was already suggesting where we could go the next night.

The next night, we went out again, but she had to leave after a few hours to go to a dance class. She said she would like to see me after class, so I waited for her at a coffee shop for 90 minutes and we went out again. She said she had to stop at a store to buy (very expensive) food for her cat. I did not offer to pay for this stuff, but she still wanted to see me again the next night.

So, we went out for a third time... this time, she drove me all over Kiev and showed me interesting things. She took me to an Orthodox Church. We went inside and she lit some candles and we also stayed for a little bit of the service.  She seems to be pious and take her faith seriously.  She needed gas for her car and I offered to fill it up. We had dinner at a very nice restaurant.

Again, she needed to take a break from our date for her dance class. I was surprised when she asked if I would mind giving her 600 UAH to pay for her class.  I complied... it’s not that much money for me, but now I am wondering if I am starting a bad trend. 

Today, I moved from an apartment in Kontraktova Ploshcha to the city center. She agreed to leave work and meet me near the city center because I had a two hour time window between apartments and no place to put my bags. She picked me up and I put my bags in her car. We parked and I bought her some tea at a cafe. She stopped at a pet store again. This time, she asked me for 800UAH for pet food and she said she owes for aunt money for using her car. She then drove me to my new apartment. As we were driving around, she saw a sign for a pop concert on Sunday and said it would be really nice if we could go.

She dropped me off at my apartment to go back to work. She said she will meet me later tonight in the city center and also wants to spend the weekend exploring Kiev together. She apologized for not alway being “present” during our dates. She is still working during the day and has her mind on other things.  She hinted that if I came back and we “went away” somewhere that she could relax more.  I found out “away” means somewhere in Europe.

Anyway, I’m trying to figure out if this girl is serious, or just trying to get free stuff.  Things are very nice, but not overly physical or anything. She is quiet and seems really shy, so it’s really hard to get a pulse on what is really going on. She will take my arm when we go walking together and she will let me hold her hand across the table when we go out. We seem to begin dates with a kiss on the cheek (very close to the mouth)... and end dates with a soft, closed mouth kiss on the lips.

Yes, I’m used to girls who want to get into bed in three dates or less... is this what a “good girl” looks like in Ukraine?  Or...is
this a clever girl who just wants stuff?  This is now the seventh Ukrainian girl I have gone out with and none have been quite like this one....

Thoughts?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: LAman on April 12, 2019, 08:25:19 AM
If you can't tell when you are being used I feel sorry for you.

7 girls now? You think that maybe, just maybe the problem is YOU?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 12, 2019, 08:37:23 AM
Seriously?

Maybe you are not aware that there are cultural differences in certain countries.  In the US, I don’t pay for shit because I don’t have to. If I ever gave  a girl cash in the US, I would feel like I am being used. So, are you saying that every Ukrainian girl who asks for taxi money is using a man? I am asking about cultural norms here. If you don’t know what they are, then just admit it. If you do, then why don’t you help out instead of criticizing?

And going on seven dates with Ukrainian girls over a two month period means I have a problem? Do you realize how many forum members have gone out with more than seven Ukrainian girls?  Have you ever heard of WMVM?  The “M” stands for “MANY”  I am in Ukraine right now. If I have a free night, I don’t have the time to get to know someone over several weeks time online. So, should I just stay in my hotel room and not go out because I don’t want too many dates?  Should I keep going out with someone that I am not a match with because I don’t want to date too many women?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 12, 2019, 08:42:55 AM
once again you're presenting something that you claim is an "external problem"
what is in actuality an internal problem

this is about YOU and not about THEM...

these so called "problems" are actually symptoms of your illness
don't you get it?

look before you get all defensive over criticism and trigger another symptom
I have autism
went to therapy learned to tame the thing inside me
so now it works FOR me instead of against me

stop being a putz, take a good long hard look at yourself
if you see anything you'd like to change - well change it, and stop blaming the wimmin...

oh, and on the way UP
be nice to the folks you meet
cuz they're the same ones you'll see on the way down
didn't I tell ya that....
ummmmm hmmmmmmm

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 12, 2019, 08:46:17 AM
Thanks for your input, but you are not answering my question.

I will have plenty of time to work on my deep personal problems when I return to the US. Right now, I’m dealing with more immediate things.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 12, 2019, 08:54:27 AM
The 'good' Ukrainian women that my wife spoke about in your other thread do not ask men for money for anything.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: rwd123 on April 12, 2019, 08:58:35 AM
Are you familiar with Slavic fairy tales? These women are foxes and you are Kolobok! YOU ARE BEING FLEECED. NICKLED AND DIMED. Some girls try and steal a base (pet food), some try for a home run (iphone).

There's a difference between offering taxi money and being asked for taxi money. Good women ask for nothing. But a good man will make sure she gets home (in her own bed by herself on the first date).

You need to be able to spot a weed from a flower. That means to stop thinking with your dick!
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 12, 2019, 09:02:49 AM
"Thanks for your input, but you are not answering my question.

if I did, it wouldn't solve your problem for you
because your problem actually relates to your own deep insecurity and has nothing to do with taxi fares or any individual woman of any nationality
this problem IS ALL ABOUT YOU.....


 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 12, 2019, 09:06:32 AM
Are you familiar with Slavic fairy tales? These women are foxes and you are Kolobok! YOU ARE BEING FLEECED. NICKLED AND DIMED. Some girls try and steal a base (pet food), some try for a home run (iphone).

There's a difference between offering taxi money and being asked for taxi money. Good women ask for nothing. But a good man will make sure she gets home (in her own bed by herself on the first date).

You need to be able to spot a weed from a flower. That means to stop thinking with your dick!

Thank you for input that is actually helpful!
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: c5h on April 12, 2019, 09:13:39 AM
Thanks for your input, but you are not answering my question.

I will have plenty of time to work on my deep personal problems when I return to the US. Right now, I’m dealing with more immediate things.

There are the good wholesome girls, the ones that in for some benefits, semi-pros and Pros in Ukraine.  Yours is probably used to getting some benefits and that is part of the reason she spending time with you.  If your a chump or not is largely dependent on how good you are with the situation.  She expects some gifts from you in exchange for her time with you.  Only 1 of the 12 or so girls I met was like that.   
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: rwd123 on April 12, 2019, 09:23:42 AM
I'd say ditch dating for the evening. Head to Buddha Bar and have a few drinks. Then walk a few blocks to Heaven before 2am, some foreigners aren't let him but if you're not drunk you should be fine. Score some ecstasy on the dance floor downstairs. Dance until it's time for breakfast. By then your worries will be gone!
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 12, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
So, I have almost two months total time in Ukraine now. I think I am learning at least a little. But.... Okay, so I met this girl in a website after I was in Kiev. I am always cautious when I meet a girl who has a blank profile, but she was really friendly over WhatsApp, so I decided to meet her.

When I met this girl, I was blown away. Her pictures online were pretty conservative, but she was drop dead gorgeous in real life... even when compared to other Ukrainian girls.  She is 34, never been married and has one of the sexiest bodies I have ever seen in my life. I asked her if she would ever like to be famous, and for what, she said she would like to be a Victoria’s secret model... in all seriousness, she could be one if she was a little taller.

When I asked this girl out, she agreed, but asked if I minded giving her 500 UAH for gas. She was borrowing her aunt’s car and wanted money for gas. She lives a little outside Kiev... but I also know this is more than the actual cost for gas. 

This girl is really sweet, and not full of herself. I can imagine she is used to having men fall over themselves for her... so if she is expecting men to pay for things, it is not much of a surprise.

We went on one date and it was nice... very formal. After dinner, I told her that I needed to get some hair clippers. She said she would take me to a place she knew because she had to get some other things.  She got some basic toiletries and I offered to pay.  She was very appreciative.  At the end of the date, she was already suggesting where we could go the next night.

The next night, we went out again, but she had to leave after a few hours to go to a dance class. She said she would like to see me after class, so I waited for her at a coffee shop for 90 minutes and we went out again. She said she had to stop at a store to buy (very expensive) food for her cat. I did not offer to pay for this stuff, but she still wanted to see me again the next night.

So, we went out for a third time... this time, she drove me all over Kiev and showed me interesting things. She took me to an Orthodox Church. We went inside and she lit some candles and we also stayed for a little bit of the service.  She seems to be pious and take her faith seriously.  She needed gas for her car and I offered to fill it up. We had dinner at a very nice restaurant.

Again, she needed to take a break from our date for her dance class. I was surprised when she asked if I would mind giving her 600 UAH to pay for her class.  I complied... it’s not that much money for me, but now I am wondering if I am starting a bad trend. 

Today, I moved from an apartment in Kontraktova Ploshcha to the city center. She agreed to leave work and meet me near the city center because I had a two hour time window between apartments and no place to put my bags. She picked me up and I put my bags in her car. We parked and I bought her some tea at a cafe. She stopped at a pet store again. This time, she asked me for 800UAH for pet food and she said she owes for aunt money for using her car. She then drove me to my new apartment. As we were driving around, she saw a sign for a pop concert on Sunday and said it would be really nice if we could go.

She dropped me off at my apartment to go back to work. She said she will meet me later tonight in the city center and also wants to spend the weekend exploring Kiev together. She apologized for not alway being “present” during our dates. She is still working during the day and has her mind on other things.  She hinted that if I came back and we “went away” somewhere that she could relax more.  I found out “away” means somewhere in Europe.

Anyway, I’m trying to figure out if this girl is serious, or just trying to get free stuff.  Things are very nice, but not overly physical or anything. She is quiet and seems really shy, so it’s really hard to get a pulse on what is really going on. She will take my arm when we go walking together and she will let me hold her hand across the table when we go out. We seem to begin dates with a kiss on the cheek (very close to the mouth)... and end dates with a soft, closed mouth kiss on the lips.

Yes, I’m used to girls who want to get into bed in three dates or less... is this what a “good girl” looks like in Ukraine?  Or...is
this a clever girl who just wants stuff?  This is now the seventh Ukrainian girl I have gone out with and none have been quite like this one....

Thoughts?

Both could be the answer. The first girl I went out with in Kiev for a week was very modest on the physical interaction front. I paid for all restaurants and few pound it cost for some fairly cheap entertainment, theatre, sightseeing stuff, basic attractions and taxis as neither of us had a car. So she wasn't a slapper but I kind of got the feeling she was enjoying a freebie as inexpensive that it was compared to what you could be hit for.

The second girl I met in Kiev was not modest with intimacy but followed more the line your girl here does with asking for stuff. She was even worse I would say as she was asking for clothing that while not real expensive was not cheap either. BB if a UW can get something for nothing out of a guy she will do. Some of those best at it seem to be those that are not obvious with it. I think your girl is being quite canny, she is starting off with reasonable sounding requests and then moving over to more unreasonable as time passes. The fact that you are willing to give her consecutive free dinners at no cost to her/no return of favour is already an initial error. Her demands as we already see get worse the more you meet them. The second girl I was with in Kiev always used logic to justify her demand. Don't believe any of the bs she tells you, it is all FSU dating gameplay. Reign her in now, it might have already gone past the point of no return on this one and you've lost all respect from her as she sees you as easily taken.

I was reading a book a while back on dating in the FSU. A guy called up a load of girls, the one which asked for some taxi money to meet him he turned down and did not meet, he saw it as a bad sign from the outset - he probably already knew the type of behaviour this tends to produce. In a poor country it's not unreasonable for a girl to ask for travel expenses but most can either walk or use the bus, tube to get around cheaply and most are bold enough to do  so never mind the safety stuff. So in general I would say yes you are being used, it is the way out there, it's not to say she is not into you, ask her for intimacy back on some level and you may find out. At the moment though you are giving everything she wants so she is getting it all without giving anything, an easy win for her. The more you let her get away with stuff the bolder she'll getluje with the holiday talk, is she to get that without showing full affection from you either? Beware that some girls will play the modesty card to try and get stuff without having to have sex with a guy, if a guy buys it they know they can play it for a long, long while.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 12, 2019, 09:40:08 AM
"Score some ecstasy on the dance floor downstairs. "

look for the guy wearing the long black coat
"chorny plosh" he's called

he has a big plastic bag of X tabs inside his coat and he "walks around" all night
I did some Russian girls a solid and did a test tab first
it wasn't actually MDMA but some kinda "research chemical"
ok...but not as good as the real deal... but still the girls were up all night getting crazy with me

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Davo on April 12, 2019, 09:45:27 AM
The 'good' Ukrainian women that my wife spoke about in your other thread do not ask men for money for anything.

I have very little experience compaired with ML and RWD123. They are both spot on.

I had a very long correspondence with one woman and almost 3 weeks on the ground in her city (I only returned home a few days ago)

Like ML states, one thing she said and remained in my mind during our correspondence was “A genuine Russian woman would never ask a man for money, we have too much pride”  or something along those lines.

It didn’t take long for the chemistry we felt online to flow through to real life. I was suprised to recieve very passionate displays of affection in public, even in front of her office. She never let go of my arm or hand where ever we went, even in the supermarket. She literally couldn’t keep her hands off me the whole time..... anywhere. It was wonderful to feel desired again.

In my yet unfinished trip report I mentioned that she tried to pay for things she shouldn’t have, but I glossed over this a lot. For the first week is was a constant battle. I would literally hold her purse shut so she couldn’t pay before I did.

Eventually she realised it was a fight she wouldn’t win and let me pay for the things I would usually pay for on a local date. Some exceptions were, when we went shopping together we put our items in the same basket and instead of separating them at the checkout I paid for it all, but her items were less than $20 aud.

The one time she separated our shopping was during our last days together, where she had bought my children a huge amount of Russian chocolate and candy.

When I returned home I brought with me many gifts that she had generously given. A book about her city written in English, with an amazingly personal message written to me inside the cover. A very expensive bottle of local champagne. The chocolates for my younger boys. My eldest daughter (19) received some Matryoshka dolls and some small trinkets. Again she write a very nice message to my daughter. She bought some local honey for my parents and a can of relatively expensive caviar, which she had delivered personally from the supplier the morning I left.  A genuine woman will give as much as she gets (even is it doesn’t match what you spend), as she wants to make you feel special too and show her appreciation for the time you spend with her.

The last morning we lay on a pebble beach in the warmth of the sun and she gave me a more sentimental gift, a large smooth stone she was laying on from the Black Sea. She wrote a touching message on the stone about where it came from and how special our time was together.

This is exactly how I invisaged all FSU women to be, based on my comparison of her to the positive stereotypes I read online after we met. It wasn’t until I came here and read all the horror stories and accounts like yours that I realise maybe I’m lucky. I found the perfect woman the first time, but to be honest I saw this genuine, caring character instantly two years earlier during our very first phone call.

My advice is to read  about the typical stereotype of a Ukrainian woman and all of her wonderful qualities, then don’t settle for anything less. As the woman I visited said.... fsu women have a great sense of pride. Find a woman like this, one with a caring and generous soul. Give from your heart, because you want to make her feel special and not because she asks for it.

 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2019, 09:47:59 AM
BrownBear,

In summary:

1.  Your woman is spoiled, but maybe retrievable.   

2.  34 and never married needs a believable explanation. 

3.  You should be having sex with this woman, now, or she may think something is wrong with you.     Intimacy and sexual experience  are important for you to get to know UW mentality. 

The rest of this post merely elaborates the above. 

__________________________________________________________________________ ________ 

You said you were blown away by this woman, so I assume she is gorgeous.  If so, UM have been chasing her every day for her entire adult life.  She has been "trained" by UM, and UM pay for SMALL stuff for their women as a prerequisite for sexy time together.  UM do this without being asked, and this attention includes flowers, chai and tort, etc.  UW expect a man to know what she needs and he takes care of it. 

What UM do not do is pay for the BIG stuff such as a fur coat, car, etc.  unless they are married, or the UM is wealthy and the woman exceptional.  I occasionally saw the latter case in the form of stunning  women getting out of Bentleys in front of restaurants, theaters, etc.  and her man may even have had a flathead bodyguard.   

Back to your case.  You should offer to pay for her taxi without her having to ask.  All the other stuff such as cat food confirms your woman is spoiled, spoiled by UM as I mentioned.   She expects gifts from men, and because you do not offer, she asks.   Does this mean she is not a good woman?  I need to know more.  However, in my years only a couple of women asked me for gifts (e. g., boutique shampoo)  before we became intimate.  It turned me off, and our relationship never advanced.   

My advice, do not regret paying for the small stuff now.  It was peanuts, yet have a serious conversation NOW!   Say you enjoy the time together, and talk about relationships and your intent.  In this conversation  stress you will not pay for stuff unless you are in committed relationship.  Upon learning this,  she may say "paka"  and you will never see her again.  Good riddance.  Or, the two of you start understanding more about each other. 

Learn why she has not married.  This is the exception, not the rule.  I assert the reason is much more than she is willing to tell you.  Maybe in reality UM find her too difficult, crazy, uncommitted, etc.       

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2019, 10:12:21 AM
BrownBear,

In summary:

1.  Your woman is spoiled, but maybe retrievable.   


Agreed

2.  34 and never married needs a believable explanation. 

SC is in her fifties and never married ;)


3.  You should be having sex with this woman, now, or she may think something is wrong with you.     Intimacy and sexual experience  are important for you to get to know UW mentality. 

'Sure' and you can share anything 'bad' she or you ever picked up from any partner from the past ...  not wise ..

You said you were blown away by this woman, so I assume she is gorgeous.  If so, UM have been chasing her every day for her entire adult life.  She has been "trained" by UM, and UM pay for SMALL stuff for their women as a prerequisite for sexy time together.  UM do this without being asked, and this attention includes flowers, chai and tort, etc.  UW expect a man to know what she needs and he takes care of it. 



My advice, do not regret paying for the small stuff now.  It was peanuts, yet have a serious conversation NOW!   Say you enjoy the time together, and talk about relationships and your intent.  In this conversation  stress you will not pay for stuff unless you are in committed relationship.  Upon learning this,  she may say "paka"  and you will never see her again.  Good riddance.  Or, the two of you start understanding more about each other. 

Gold advice


Learn why she has not married.  This is the exception, not the rule.  I assert the reason is much more than she is willing to tell you.  Maybe in reality UM find her too difficult, crazy, uncommitted, etc.     

 :ROFL:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 12, 2019, 10:18:57 AM
you are way out of sync with what it takes to be a success in this “business”
which should be as painfully obvious to you as it is to us...

putting your “issues” aside
best thing for you in general is to compartmentalize your finances and organize it and set a budget

if you think you can get something for nothing
who paid for your lunch today
that’s what I thought...
so why are you expecting a free dessert?

structure it with modern accounting methods if you so like
but this really falls under petty cash, wonder how stressful it would be for someone like you to start making capital level expenditures and not petty cash level?

some other things
to be a success you’ll learn it’s a whole lot easier to do carpentry “with the grain”
than it is “going against it” a lot less splinters that way
so whatever direction things are moving in, understand the momentum and go with it
this means a MASSIVE change in thinking for you
this “caring” about another

so, instead of getting annoyed at this poor girl for bringing a problem to you
hmmmppfff, how dare she take advantage of me this way!
you anticipate little concerns down the path a ways that may effect her - like returning home
and you come up with a FAR better solution than handing her $3 for cab fare
I ALWAYS accompanied the woman home and before I was comfortable driving myself had my own driver take us, and if we passed an open gastranome, I made sure she had a snack as well...

this is cutting with the grain...
so much easier to work using this methodology

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 12, 2019, 10:21:27 AM
Hey, we don't have to attack the personality traits of BB like the bullies do here with Trench.

Just give him advice without reference to your perceived knowledge of him.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2019, 10:26:12 AM
Hey, we don't have to attack the personality traits of BB like the bullies do here with Trench.

Just give him advice without reference to your perceived knowledge of him.

Trench deserves EVERYTHING he gets, ML ...

He asks questions, then tells us we are 'wrong' and 'advises'  how to do it - when he can't pull a Christmas Cracker - let alone a date ..

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2019, 10:31:28 AM

SC is in her fifties and never married ;)


She had the patience to wait for perfection.   :D 
 


Quote
'Sure' and you can share anything 'bad' she or you ever picked up from any partner from the past ...  not wise ..

Know your woman.  Avoid the party girls.  Be safe.     

I never had an incident. 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 12, 2019, 10:32:15 AM
"we don't have to attack the personality traits of BB"

thank you for your deeply profound comment, I was quite moved when I read it...
however, you misinterpret MY comments, it's not an attack
just an examination of the symptoms he displays
and you're trying to tell me I shouldn't warn him he's sick and that his sickness is the reason all his relationships end the same way...

I'm really surprised more people aren't familiar with narcissistic personality disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder





Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Maxx2 on April 12, 2019, 11:47:50 AM
She had the patience to wait for perfection.   :D 
 


 :ROFL:     Good humor! Only I am perfection!  :clapping:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Patagonie on April 12, 2019, 11:53:25 AM
You are in the middle way of the desert, not knowing if the exit is back or forward.

I had recently two women close to this type of situation.
I dropped them into the wild behind me. There are too many women who could be interested in you to care about the mid interested.

You have been giving many details, that is very good.
But the common fact among many men here is that they are not capable to explain and demonstrate the IOI signs of interest a UW could give to you.

Taking you arm to cross the street and letting you hold your hand (see the most interesting meaning here : you hold her hand not she) are too from far to assess that's IOI.
So now even if it's not the thing you really want to see and hear it : try to find the SOD, disinsterest signs.

So as you are not trained to see the IOI and SOD and the pro dater are also trained to send false IOI--> We will come along the most logical way.

Are you sure that a dance class costs 600 UAH ???????????????????????????????????1/ In the next hour try to find a class which costs 600UAH please                                                                                                                          That's your mission.
Activate everybody you know in Ukraine, pay a terp, move the earth and kick your ass to know if in Ukraine a dance class costs 600UAH, and after you will have an opinion.
You remember where it happened, grab a cab and go, find the school and ASK. Move your ass.


Very long time ago, i met a dater and to prove her that she was a piece of shit i came back to the same grocery, i bought the EXACT same stuff WITH her to prove her that she asked me three times more than what the real bill was. I did this because she was all denying, she hated to be confronted. As a girl in a rental office was her accomplice i managed the accomplice to loose her job and her to be kicked off of the marriage agency. Playing sillly games could hit you back.


2/ Do the math : one liter of fuel, how much it costs? Is this cat defecates gold nuggets ??? Have you put a finger in his ass to check?

So 800 UAH for 20 liters, and borrowing the car,, filling it of fuel and first class souper for the cat? Is it true or you dick get toom much blood and your head not irrigated enough,  I just ask.

The question is not a question of margin, even if she puts in her pockets 10$ she is dishonest because she is making money from the relationship, even if 10$ is nothting for you.

So other important question : who is this girl to attend 600 UAH lesson for 90 minutes of dance, what is she doing for a living ? HOW MUCH does she earn ?

Take a pen and draw a line and try to figure out her inputs and ouputs.

You will  reward RWD by telling us here about your inquiry
And anyway if you have found a high UW princess (it happens, they have been dated by gold local men), be prepared to throw away big money or have continuous fights around this topic. To manage this type of girls you need to have a big frame.

LAST QUESTION : have you checked if is she a pro? (prostitute)


Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2019, 12:03:46 PM
She had the patience to wait for perfection.   :D 


Smooth...))
 

Know your woman.  Avoid the party girls.  Be safe.     

I never had an incident.

I have and the first time I 'thought I knew'....well...

The lass in this thread is not known ...well enough.. that is clear !
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 12, 2019, 12:12:27 PM
500 UAH is about a quarter of a tank of gas, so it's not out of the ballpark.

I don't think being unmarried at 35 is a red flag these days in Ukraine.  I know a fair number of UW who have never married - just didn't find the right man.

Salsa lessons - 120 UAH for one lesson, 650 UAH for 8 lessons.

End result will be once she thinks she has received enough, she will suddenly become "busy".

This post was composed with the aid of google in looking up the cost of salsa lessons.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 12, 2019, 12:13:23 PM
BrownBear,

In summary:

1.  Your woman is spoiled, but maybe retrievable.   

2.  34 and never married needs a believable explanation. 

3.  You should be having sex with this woman, now, or she may think something is wrong with you.     Intimacy and sexual experience  are important for you to get to know UW mentality. 

The rest of this post merely elaborates the above. 

__________________________________________________________________________ ________ 

You said you were blown away by this woman, so I assume she is gorgeous.  If so, UM have been chasing her every day for her entire adult life.  She has been "trained" by UM, and UM pay for SMALL stuff for their women as a prerequisite for sexy time together.  UM do this without being asked, and this attention includes flowers, chai and tort, etc.  UW expect a man to know what she needs and he takes care of it. 

What UM do not do is pay for the BIG stuff such as a fur coat, car, etc.  unless they are married, or the UM is wealthy and the woman exceptional.  I occasionally saw the latter case in the form of stunning  women getting out of Bentleys in front of restaurants, theaters, etc.  and her man may even have had a flathead bodyguard.   

Back to your case.  You should offer to pay for her taxi without her having to ask.  All the other stuff such as cat food confirms your woman is spoiled, spoiled by UM as I mentioned.   She expects gifts from men, and because you do not offer, she asks.   Does this mean she is not a good woman?  I need to know more.  However, in my years only a couple of women asked me for gifts (e. g., boutique shampoo)  before we became intimate.  It turned me off, and our relationship never advanced.   

My advice, do not regret paying for the small stuff now.  It was peanuts, yet have a serious conversation NOW!   Say you enjoy the time together, and talk about relationships and your intent.  In this conversation  stress you will not pay for stuff unless you are in committed relationship.  Upon learning this,  she may say "paka"  and you will never see her again.  Good riddance.  Or, the two of you start understanding more about each other. 

Learn why she has not married.  This is the exception, not the rule.  I assert the reason is much more than she is willing to tell you.  Maybe in reality UM find her too difficult, crazy, uncommitted, etc.     

Gator gives very good advice BB, particularly the three points he lists. I know it is difficult to work out what is going on when dating UW at first, their behaviour is different from what we have come to know in the west, it was for me too, a lot of it can seem bizarre. Working out the problems and mistakes made as I and others have outlined is the first stage of understanding. Understanding beyond that if there is indeed understanding to be had is more harder.

I think Gator here is giving top shelf advice that is a level I have not gotten to. Indeed there is probably a reason your girl is not married and that is likely to be that most local guys will not deal with her, they know what she is like and have seen her behaviour in other girls and prefer to go for girls who don't have such a 'buy me this, pay for that' issue. As Gator said she may not be irretrievable but they can be tough to bring around if focused in money/material stuff and you have already aquiesed. I say too with my limited knowledge on this (accepted) as compared to the girl I had as pointed out by Krimster you haven't spent loads in this girl. I don't suggest that you continue to spend as you do or more but in fact less. So as Gator says and tackle the issue. Your one advantage to me see s to be that she is a little timid but is getting bolder, you let her get bold by continuing down the pat as you have and all is lost, she will come to expect that treatment all the time and won't back down. She will then be very difficult to change if not impossible.Girls who have got it over on one guy successfully will then feel more confident on the next guy doing the same,maybe not as much at first but it will become a habit. As 2tallbill told me of the second girl I was with in Kiev that 'she knows she's hot sh*t so can demand stuff' after my Cyprus holiday with her, he was correct.

I think you're girl is a little the same but may have been shunned by local guys as despite being hot she is too difficult for them and they can't afford her. In the end she will expect daily spending on her and you will feel just like a atm machine/walking credit card. She may not come around when you talk to her and refuse to accept your position. I would say even if not lead by example and set up a lot of dates where you visit stuff for free or very low cost, avoid the restaurant stuff completely unless you want it to end up a sex for favours relationship, but that means you are just getting sex for continuing to spend out on her, the relationship then has gone.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 12, 2019, 12:18:00 PM
Anyway, I’m trying to figure out if this girl is serious, or just trying to get free stuff.

NOTE: I can only go off of what you've written here. I wasn't along the date(s) 
with bb99, so my comments are based on what he wrote.

In my opinion this girl is a prodater. She wants free stuff, but you've let her.
Gas you pay for, toiletries you don't (if she isn't living with you or engaged to
you).

Dates you pay for (at places you choose) dance class you don't, pet food you
don't. You can't let woman do this. You are giving away a piece of your self
respect each time you buy something that you shouldn't and she is
respecting you less and less each time you comply.

If you had said no in the beginning, the girl might have been redeemable
but in my opinion that time has passed by and when you started buying
gourmet cat food you lost this girl. Even prodaters can get romantically
interested in a man but it's too late for this one.

There are those who can learn from mistakes and those who can't. I think
that you can probably learn from them. I've done plenty of stupid stuff
myself. I tried to not repeat the same dumb stuff and started doing
different dumb stuff.

Now it's time for you to learn from this and pursue somebody else. 

Lastly,

DON'T LET THE PEANUT GALLERY GET YOU DOWN!!
You are putting yourself out there and making mistakes
WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES, OFTEN TIMES THAT'S HOW WE LEARN!!

This is fresh for you and the peanut gallery barbs seem sharper now. 

So, should I just stay in my hotel room and not go out because I don’t want too many dates?  Should I keep going out with someone that I am not a match with because I don’t want to date too many women?

I've dated far more women than I could figure out how many or recount.

My advice is to step back, give yourself a pep talk and meet another
girl.


Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on April 12, 2019, 03:17:53 PM
BB  --read what I say and then read it again!

Gator comments -- very good explanation --I commend it.

Boethius -- on costs - same.

Fuel is not cheap -- especially on a UKR budget.The cost of running a car -- comparable to the west.
Dance classes are paid in blocks -- in Kyiv UAH 800 - no big deal

Now on actually forking out  $-- it can be both ways . I have done it wrong both ways  !!   I have also done it right both ways !

In this case--good looking girl will not be short of offers re sex --  so ........

As to a future --  mm-- you will not get that far to find out  if you do nothing !

I refer to Steve comments in another thread -re sex tourism.

To repeat a comment made previously--  there is a cost in all of this - grin and bear it-- a lot of time can be saved by going with the flow to see what you have. Being Trenchcoat paranoid  about spending a few $ will guarantee  "failure" in the long term.

Comments in thread ( eg ML)  are not "wrong" -- but a valid opinion. But in my view- not the whole story
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Faux Pas on April 12, 2019, 03:28:44 PM
brownbeard, My best guess from what you've written is this lady isn't interested in you as a lover or a steady. That doesn't mean don't pursue her if you are interested in her. That could change. Just know up front the bait for that one is money. I wouldn't think you're the first to pay for her company and likely won't be the last. She's gaming you for her minor wants and needs. Bed her and the wants likely get more costly. No, she's not pious and I wouldn't consider her a good girl. She "knows" what she's doing. Maybe she needs to or maybe she just wants to but she's doing it is all that matters.

That said, if you enjoy her company continue on. You're there to enjoy yourself. No need in having to get definitive with the motivation of every one you meet. Relax and enjoy your trip. Have a good time as #1 priority. You're meeting others. I'd recommend to keep meeting them. Maybe that one shifts gears, maybe she don't
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 12, 2019, 04:16:39 PM
a woman’s sexuality is a magnificent creation of nature
that operates according to a natural process with natural principles
one element of this is that a woman can more easily access her libido
if she is free of any anxiety which otherwise tends to block such feelings

unless you’re a moron with no clue (I will mention no specific names here)
your  first objective assuming you want to help her access her libido
is to find and remove any anxiety causing stimulus that might block it

then once you got rid of the things that might inhibit a libido response
you provide things that might actually STIMULATE it...

it’s REAL simple
literally freakin cave men have done this 20,000 yr ago with no social media at all
otherwise none of you would’ve been here

oh my stimulating a woman's libido does take some effort
hopefully you won't find it too much of an imposition
tell me, do you complain when you're camping about collecting kindling and lighting a fire as well
because the wood just didn't burst into flames in your exalted presence
no, you don't complain about the fire?  that's good
but why do you complain about having to kindle a woman's fire?
I know the one I want to keep me warm
totally worth the minimal effort this requires
like all good behaviors
if you make a habit out of them
it doesn't feel like work


Pface Pfungus’s problem
is a total lack of connection with the girls TOTAL...lack...of...connection...
he can’t connect with ANY woman because of his inability to empathize with the feelings and needs of other people

It is almost a universal truth among narcissists that they tend to exaggerate their skills, accomplishments, and their level of intimacy with people
so reading mr beards trip report with a narcissist filter, the sexual escapades got eliminated and only the part about wimmin who stop contacting him after the third date remains (which was probably a longevity record, and shows just how bad things really are in Ukraine, that it took her 3 dates)

so based on that dating record, in freakin Ukraine
where wimmin have provided oral pleasure just to keep warm
you really think that if he just tweaked this variable or that variable all would be well?

really?  he’s NOT EVEN close
and he’s STILL not getting it and you guys are not helping him
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 12, 2019, 05:57:31 PM
BB  --read what I say and then read it again!

Gator comments -- very good explanation --I commend it.

Boethius -- on costs - same.

Fuel is not cheap -- especially on a UKR budget.The cost of running a car -- comparable to the west.
Dance classes are paid in blocks -- in Kyiv UAH 800 - no big deal

Now on actually forking out  $-- it can be both ways . I have done it wrong both ways  !!   I have also done it right both ways !

In this case--good looking girl will not be short of offers re sex --  so ........

As to a future --  mm-- you will not get that far to find out  if you do nothing !

I refer to Steve comments in another thread -re sex tourism.

To repeat a comment made previously--  there is a cost in all of this - grin and bear it-- a lot of time can be saved by going with the flow to see what you have. Being Trenchcoat paranoid  about spending a few $ will guarantee  "failure" in the long term.

Comments in thread ( eg ML)  are not "wrong" -- but a valid opinion. But in my view- not the whole story

I actually went 'with the flow' with the second Kiev girl, I bought her some items in Kiev, I bought her even more in Cyprus. I have her a couple of hundred pound for English lessons as like you say they are done in blocks. In comparison to BB's spend out I spent out quite a lot more. BB's spend is not that great at the moment but I know how it quickly starts to grate when everything becomes a dig in pocket moment with a UW.

Point is that this girl could do things cheaper, she could get BB to go to her area, or being in Kiev she could use the tube or bus. She is choosing not to as she can get BB to pay for all. She herself probably gets cheap cat food but while BB is paying it might as well the the expensive stuffad it's not down on her account. Unless BB learns not to fall for the 'logical reason given by FSW for him to spend out' things will only get worse with this girl or another like her. Any answer than BB answering yes to her demands will be an improvement, I've been there, she may walk of but at least he'll find out earlier in the day that she's a waste of his time. At the moment he ain't even getting any favours in return so he's being assigned an even lower social value in her eyes than a guy she returns favours for him 'helping her out'.

BB in Ukraine being nice for the sake of it is seen as weakness, you can be nice in some ways just not by helping her out with stuff unless you are happy with a helping out for favours return which even that at the moment you aren't getting. It's all a game to a lot of these Ukrainian women, I personally think they get quite off on how well they can play the game whilst dating a guy.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 12, 2019, 06:13:39 PM
Point is that this girl could do things cheaper, she could get BB to go to her area, or being in Kiev she could use the tube or bus. She is choosing not to as she can get BB to pay for all. She herself probably gets cheap cat food but while BB is paying it might as well the the expensive stuffad it's not down on her account. Unless BB learns not to fall for the 'logical reason given by FSW for him to spend out' things will only get worse with this girl or another like her. Any answer than BB answering yes to her demands will be an improvement, I've been there, she may walk of but at least he'll find out earlier in the day that she's a waste of his time. At the moment he ain't even getting any favours in return so he's being assigned an even lower social value in her eyes than a guy she returns favours for him 'helping her out'.

He was out a whole $75 plus the cost of dinner, and half of that $75 was for gas.

No, she can't just "take a bus" or the metro if she lives outside Kyiv.  Moreover, Kyiv is big - getting from one end to the other, even with the metro, can take as much as 3 hours. 

Quote
BB in Ukraine being nice for the sake of it is seen as weakness, you can be nice in some ways just not by helping her out with stuff unless you are happy with a helping out for favours return which even that at the moment you aren't getting.

Utter BS, proving yet again that you are clueless and ultimately, will fail.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 12, 2019, 07:06:48 PM
He was out a whole $75 plus the cost of dinner, and half of that $75 was for gas.

No, she can't just "take a bus" or the metro if she lives outside Kyiv.  Moreover, Kyiv is big - getting from one end to the other, even with the metro, can take as much as 3 hours. 

Utter BS, proving yet again that you are clueless and ultimately, will fail.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

Really, you have a difference of opinion with 2tallbill, he thinks chances are she is a pro dater and in any case she is a lost cause as BB didn't stop her at the outset.

Anything can be explained away as a logical reason, UW can be very good at that. Regardless of the logical explanation BB can't get drawn into acquising to her demands it shows weakness regardless. Better he pay an Uber taxi driver, use train or whatever to go to her than be drawn into the payments spiral of relationship destruction, even if it costs him more. He needs to make it clear to her that he won't be paying for any random demands of hers until in a fully live together relationship. Only way this one can work.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 12, 2019, 07:19:41 PM
First, from the description there was no demand, merely a request to which he acquiesced. Secondly, a pro dater would not be trifling with $75, half of which was for gas, and an Uber to a village and back could easily be double that. Hi

I don’t need lectures in relationships from a 40 year old single man.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: LAman on April 12, 2019, 07:58:29 PM
First, from the description there was no demand, merely a request to which he acquiesced. Secondly, a pro dater would not be trifling with $75, half of which was for gas, and an Uber to a village and back could easily be double that. Hi

I don’t need lectures in relationships from a 40 year old single man.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

Boe, maybe you should read entire opening post, sure sounds like a pro dater:

First date, ( dates only in evening) asks for 500 uah for gas, dinner, some toiletries


Second date , dance class and cat food ( as you will see, on another date girl will ask for money).


Third date, filled up car gas, dinner ( I presume), dance class with asking for 600 uah


Fourth date, asks for money for using aunt's car, cat food 800 uah
and hinting for European vacation.


 $75 is just beginning. It is as if building up of needs, don't know if you see this BB. I would think another introduction for money...…. needed for XXXX?


BB, do you think your choosing girls for the wrong reasons? Initially, you normally speak of a girls in glowing terms.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 12, 2019, 07:59:51 PM
First, from the description there was no demand, merely a request to which he acquiesced. Secondly, a pro dater would not be trifling with $75, half of which was for gas, and an Uber to a village and back could easily be double that. Hi

I don’t need lectures in relationships from a 40 year old single man.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

Boethius, getting into a relationship for a woman is not difficult, a woman can give birth and men will chase after women as most men want children. Being an everyday man and getting into relationship especially in the west now that is an achievement.

The best prodaters are the ones that start with a logical seemingly reasonable demand or request as you put it for a matter of fact expense. They may do several of these to test the guy before then gradually moving onto the less matter of fact expenses. By that time the guy has already paid for the other expenses so why should he have issue with any other, she has trained him like a dog. She will then push for more expensive stuff and more frequently as time goes on.

Standard pro daters who take the obvious path of upfront demanding the guy meets high price costs from the outset can lose out as many guys immediately rejects the blatent attempt. It's actually those prodaters that realise not to do that or even amateur pro daters who more naturally take the gentler route that do better, they have the guy hooked for the duration and suffer far less knock backs from the outset.

She may be an experienced or amateur pro dater that takes the subtle approach or she may just be a girl up to dating game play, may not even realise herself falling into crossing the line. Either way BB needs to decide what to do with the situation. I believe he should not keep paying out if he is not happy with it though, I think he should instead state the terms of the relationship to which she can either agree to or move on.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 12, 2019, 08:03:36 PM
Boe, maybe you should read entire opening post, sure sounds like a pro dater:

First date, ( dates only in evening) asks for 500 uah for gas, dinner, some toiletries


Second date , dance class and cat food ( as you will see, on another date girl will ask for money).


Third date, filled up car gas, dinner ( I presume), dance class with asking for 600 uah


Fourth date, asks for money for using aunt's car, cat food 800 uah
and hinting for European vacation.


 $75 is just beginning. It is as if building up of needs, don't know if you see this BB. I would think another introduction for money...…. needed for XXXX?


BB, do you think your choosing girls for the wrong reasons? Initially, you normally speak of a girls in glowing terms.

She didn’t ask for toiletries, he offered to pay.

Other than the dance lessons, I don’t see an issue here. Were she a pro dater, he’d be out a lot more than $75.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 12, 2019, 08:04:30 PM
ps. Think the English lessons mentioned earlier probably might have only cost me around the £120 mark, ie 10 lessons for £12 so think my £200 was my mind thinking it was a bit more than it was. Still goes to show that I did commit to a girl but paying out did me no favours. I would advise BB to address the problem rather than let it slide on.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 12, 2019, 08:11:09 PM
Boe, maybe you should read entire opening post, sure sounds like a pro dater:

First date, ( dates only in evening) asks for 500 uah for gas, dinner, some toiletries


Second date , dance class and cat food ( as you will see, on another date girl will ask for money).


Third date, filled up car gas, dinner ( I presume), dance class with asking for 600 uah


Fourth date, asks for money for using aunt's car, cat food 800 uah
and hinting for European vacation.


 $75 is just beginning. It is as if building up of needs, don't know if you see this BB. I would think another introduction for money...…. needed for XXXX?


BB, do you think your choosing girls for the wrong reasons? Initially, you normally speak of a girls in glowing terms.

Indeed, I would apply the same logic that if a girl survived well enough before  a WM's arrival she should not need to rely on the WM paying out beyond the usual basic entertainment costs while he is there.

I think BB stated she was hot little me in the 8-10 looks category, that is why I said on here that I'm staying clear of that category of girls, too many pro daters and the like. A real relationship is what I'm after and I would suggest BB also consider girls that are not so pretty but wanting an actual real life relationship.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2019, 10:37:40 PM
Thoughts?


You have doubts about the woman. Date tons of women until you find one that doesn't give you doubts.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2019, 11:11:44 PM
OMG.... more misogynistic twaddle



Boethius, getting into a relationship for a woman is not difficult,

WHY, do you have to keep proving you are clueless at this man / woman lark ?


The best prodaters are the ones that start with a logical seemingly reasonable demand or request as you put it for a matter of fact expense. They may do several of these to test the guy before then gradually moving onto the less matter of fact expenses. By that time the guy has already paid for the other expenses so why should he have issue with any other, she has trained him like a dog. She will then push for more expensive stuff and more frequently as time goes on.

While you continue think like this, you will never pull




Standard pro daters who take the obvious path of upfront demanding the guy meets high price costs from the outset can lose out as many guys immediately rejects the blatent attempt. It's actually those prodaters that realise not to do that or even amateur pro daters who more naturally take the gentler route that do better, they have the guy hooked for the duration and suffer far less knock backs from the outset.

She may be an experienced or amateur pro dater that takes the subtle approach or she may just be a girl up to dating game play, may not even realise herself falling into crossing the line. Either way BB needs to decide what to do with the situation. I believe he should not keep paying out if he is not happy with it though, I think he should instead state the terms of the relationship to which she can either agree to or move on.

Trench

You've not actually dated that many lasses, let alone FSU one's and you're back to posting like you 'know' ....and proving you don't

I see W guys pitch up in the FSU, flash some cash and expect the lass to 'put out'... then then they 'disappear' - as they are saving for the next adventure..

IF you are a nice person even 'pro daters' will realise you are too good to lose ..;)

We, the W. blokes, have only ourselves to blame .. going to the same cities, avoiding nations needing visas and failing to understand that men are expected to pay for dates in the FSU.

'We' take the piss and the lasses do, too ... THAT is why one should chat BEFORE going on the equivalent of a blind date...

Would you go to meet a woman in Ireland, whose photo you had seen and the meeting had been arranged by a third party in the 21C?

There's an industry built around the 'soft saps' and novices who want to join this 'game' - for that is what it is... and YOU are one of those guys.. 

I've BEEN one of those guys... 

With the language barrier and failure to 'get' the difference between being 'greedy' ( to her) and 'spoiling' we ( w.men) are walking in a minefield and the only thing you keep getting right is that 'chemistry' thing... i.e you'll figure out if the lass is 'in to you' or not by kindness on her part - shown to you and her making sure no one else cheats you. You'll see it in her eyes...

Really...STOP with this need to 'prove yourself' on here, as some sort of 'expert' on FSU women and FFS plan to meet at least one interesting woman before you go to Kyiv - or you'll be wasting your time ..

IF things do not work out, there's alway the Lisdoonvarna Matchmaking Festival – the biggest event of its kind in Europe - in September ;)

http://www.matchmakerireland.com/ (http://www.matchmakerireland.com/)





 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2019, 11:17:56 PM
You have doubts about the woman. Date tons of women until you find one that doesn't give you doubts.

..and remember, she'll have been dating lots of guys - if you both follow BillyB's advice - to the letter ;)

It's good advice .. it's just some ( men and women) get addicted to dating and even seek 'admiration' for having  girls in the FSU that might be expecting flowers on Intl Ladies Day .. :wallbash:


Guys can be 'pro-daters', too ! ;)
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 13, 2019, 07:07:18 AM
BB, despite Mobe questioning my experience one experience I have that from what I have seen on here that he does not is with a girl like the one you have. The trouble with a girl that you have is that it is difficult to apply the standard pro dater label to her because she doesn't easily fall into the standard idea/description of a pro dater. That what makes such girls so damn good and confusing to the guy just exactly who they are dealing with. The best way to put it is that you do not have a 'good girl', she may not be the baddest girl around but she is not a good girl. This of course maybe why she is still available at 34 despite looking hot. We are of course assuming she is not married or has an 'other man' etc, to which I don't see any point worrying about that it will get you nowhere. What is a point to consider though is that it doesn't sound like you have visited her home address yet? Unless I missed that. Establishing a more domestic footing for a relationship is far more important than spending out on stuff. If she is not prepared to do that then that is a big red flag time. She is of course not immediately going to open up her entire life to you but I think one step towards a more domestic footing is reasonable enough after your time together. I think the best you can hope for is that this girl has been passed over by Ukrainian men as she is a bit difficult on the demand front. If you can temper that then there might still be some go in a relationship with her.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: GenMish on April 13, 2019, 09:42:56 AM
Gentleman or Chump?
I think you are being a gentleman with chump change. I also think you are wasting time with this one, which is far more valuable than some pet food. Unless you want her to be a playmate for awhile, move on because she is establishing a selfish framework for the relationship.
  My experience was 25 years ago, and it matched Bills opinion about the taxi. 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: civi68 on April 13, 2019, 11:56:18 AM
Follow the advice you have been given and your gut feeling. You only met her recently and are not in the relationship stage so paying for daily things or talk of a vacation should give you pause. Paying for things for your dates such as taxi, etc, are fine. Remember that even nice girls can have high expectations if they are attractive. The challenge is that now that you have started, it can be hard to stop without her thinking something is wrong. But if you slow down with the spending and she has a bad attitude about it, it's time to rethink where it is going.
   I can relate to being in your situation. There were times I had to walk away when the priority went from the relationship to me paying for everything. Some of these women were so great to get along with at first and at some point in the relationship, (I tend to have these problems happen more on the 2nd visit than the 1st), the priority became money. Where these women bad? I didn't feel that these women were bad since they had normal lives with family, friends, etc. Plus I was getting all of the benefits of a relationship so I couldn't complain. But their expectations were not good and rarely could be met by the average guy.
   That's what make these relationships challenging. Many women don't have money or the things they want so they date us. They may also have some feelings towards us or enjoy our company which makes decisions cloudy for us. The really bad ones we can avoid. The ones in between keep us coming back for more.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 13, 2019, 12:23:06 PM
For sure, the things she wants you need to hang out like a carrot BB for whatever you want be it more intimacy, domestic relationship, etc. At the moment you are giving everything away for free. Attach a 'when we are at this or that stage in a relationship' that sort of expenditure is appropriate. If she rejects it, play around with her by trying to ascertain what she might settle for. Remember, there is no need to fold immediately at the first mention of her demand. She will probably get off on not getting her way so easily so long as you don't push too hard or stay too stubborn in your side. FSW are logical after all so I think she'll stay in the game so long as she has not got what she wants. Use this girl as a learning aid if nothing else. Toy around with her about the prospect of going abroad and the great holidays you have had :) but don't firmly agree to anything. You've already shown her you've got what she wants, now let's see how badly she wants it!
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 13, 2019, 12:38:40 PM
Use this girl as a learning aid if nothing else. Toy around with her about the prospect of going abroad and the great holidays you have had :) but don't firmly agree to anything. You've already shown her you've got what she wants, now let's see how badly she wants it!

This mentality is part of the reason you will fail.  You have a "market" approach to relationships. so stop posting here how what  you want is love.  Your attitude proves you don't.

Yes, sure, lie and lead on a woman for the benefit of your penis.  Waste time and energy on someone you have no interest in.  What forty plus man needs to "practice" and "learn" about women???

I think this particular woman already has a man, which is why the "events" have been so "pious".

As for cabs, I am just saying what the practice is in Kyiv.  A man either escorts a woman home, or gives her cab fare, if he is able to do so. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 13, 2019, 01:21:23 PM
Thanks for all your good advice and lively debate.  I decided not to pursue things with the girl.  Maybe she is bad, maybe just spoiled... it doesn’t really matter. It’s obvious she is playing some sort of game. Like some others, I have avoided the “super hot” women for the most part.  Her pictures online were not that good, so I thought she was more like. 7-8.  I was blown away when we met.

My next move was against the advice of many, and I know it. Last night I got a call from the girl I originally came here to see. She invited me to hang out with some friends at a neighborhood pub and watch a football game. Since I’m leaving in a few days, I don’t really have time to strike up a new relationship, so I decided to meet her.

We had a nice talk and both apologized for things we did that led to our breakup. I ended up taking her back to my apartment (not for sex).  We really get along and it’s so comfortable... how a relationship should be.  It made me realize how wrong everything was with the “hot girl”

I realized that I had gotten this nice girl only a couple small presents.  She never asked for gifts or money and just liked me for who I am. I never had to do anything to impress her.  She prefers staying in to going out and spending money.  When we stay in, she cooks dinner for me, even if she isn’t hungry.

I am realizing that maybe I had my “dream girl” from the beginning.  If not her, I will o my focus on this type of girl and leave the “super hot” ones to the other guys.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Patagonie on April 13, 2019, 04:08:52 PM
Thanks for all your good advice and lively debate.  I decided not to pursue things with the girl.  Maybe she is bad, maybe just spoiled... it doesn’t really matter. It’s obvious she is playing some sort of game. Like some others, I have avoided the “super hot” women for the most part.  Her pictures online were not that good, so I thought she was more like. 7-8.  I was blown away when we met.

My next move was against the advice of many, and I know it. Last night I got a call from the girl I originally came here to see. She invited me to hang out with some friends at a neighborhood pub and watch a football game. Since I’m leaving in a few days, I don’t really have time to strike up a new relationship, so I decided to meet her.

We had a nice talk and both apologized for things we did that led to our breakup. I ended up taking her back to my apartment (not for sex).  We really get along and it’s so comfortable... how a relationship should be.  It made me realize how wrong everything was with the “hot girl”

I realized that I had gotten this nice girl only a couple small presents.  She never asked for gifts or money and just liked me for who I am. I never had to do anything to impress her.  She prefers staying in to going out and spending money.  When we stay in, she cooks dinner for me, even if she isn’t hungry.

I am realizing that maybe I had my “dream girl” from the beginning.  If not her, I will o my focus on this type of girl and leave the “super hot” ones to the other guys.
Good post  :clapping:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 13, 2019, 04:29:01 PM
But isn't this gal the same one that drank too much ?????????
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 13, 2019, 05:06:58 PM
repeating a failed process and expecting a different outcome is also called....???
don't forget to at least get a t-shirt or a souvenir nesting doll for your daughter before you leave
so you'll have "something" to show for your 2 months in Ukraine...
I'm sure she'll appreciate the thought...






Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 14, 2019, 04:52:59 AM
I would still be interested to find out what the deal is with the other girl BB either from the girl in splitting from her or maybe any local you may know. To me it looks like it could potentially be another one of these unknown dating situations to WM.

In the book 'Odessa Dreams' which you can get online from Amazon for a few quid or wherever we see described in that book a description of a standard pro dater. Basically they were taking guys to a restaurant the guys were receiving highly inflated bills (profit shared around) and the girls made out they knew too little English that they needed a terp, again at over the odds prices with you've guessed it profits shared around. The guys there were on a tour, a dodgy one where a lot of these pro date girls were present to latch onto them. So it is why I say that your girl does not fall into the typical standard pro date type.

She might be a different type of pro dater as already discussed earlier. My intuition though is suggesting to me that this girl may be ones that locals come up against the same problems you are having. I'm not even sure the girl realises fully what she is doing nor would necessarily accept it if you told her. I think she might see what she does as normal enough dating or at least the way she dates. She may have gotten into a habit of inadvertently crossing the boundary at an early age, not taking dating seriously enough and wondering why guys ditch her.

On a video on YouTube which I have posted up here before and will do later as I've got stuff to do at the moment it features a local guy in Nikolaev, a guy called 'Yuri', he tells the interviewer that local girls are not brought up like in the past, they are too materialistic. So from this and no doubt other accounts can be found I gather that some of the girls at least (the ones not quickly taken) that are left have these problems about them that locals find problematic. My thought is that some of these girls end up turning to foreign rating as apart from no local is willing to take them because of there problems they think a foreign guy will be wealthy enough for it not to be an issue maybe.

My thoughts on that front to many a wealthy guy as we have on this forum a lot probably wouldn't have blinked, maybe would have thought she was being quite modest in what she was asking for. So it may somewhat depend on expectations. I think though that not lying down and taking her demands when it gets to stuff like holidays and the more bigger expenses is probably necessary to avoid going wrong with her, if not from the outset as a bad girl needs setting straight if that is at all possible.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 14, 2019, 12:06:10 PM
There's a difference between offering taxi money and being asked for taxi money.
Good women ask for nothing.
But a good man will make sure she gets home (in her own bed by herself on the first date).


+1  :clapping:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 14, 2019, 12:07:34 PM

2.  34 and never married needs a believable explanation. 



Hey Gator, I'm 46 and never married. So what?  8)  Don't think I owe an explanation to anyone  :D
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 14, 2019, 01:07:15 PM
My thoughts on that front to many a wealthy guy as we have on this forum a lot probably wouldn't have blinked, maybe would have thought she was being quite modest in what she was asking for.


Just my two Russian kopecks: modesty is not it the amount(s), but in the very fact of NOT asking.


This said, 500 + 600 + 800 UAH is quite a sum in UA, keeping in mind the median salary in UA nowadays.


I've spent last weekend in DNK + OZH; a drink in quite a posh restaurant in OZH was 70 UAH only, IIRC.


In the only "after passports" cafe at DNK airport tea (porcelain cup, tea pot, milk or lemon, service) costs 1,5 EUR, with an exchange rate 1 EUR = 30 UAH. Coffee (espresso, cappuccino, americano) = 2 EUR = 60 UAH.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 14, 2019, 02:53:56 PM

Hey Gator, I'm 46 and never married. So what?  8)  Don't think I owe an explanation to anyone  :D

You don't owe anyone on a public forum a reason or a story about
why you've never been married, but to a man who was pursuing you
romantically for the purpose of marriage would want to know if he
had a brain.

Anyone pursuing you has a brain if they've managed to get past the
second Skype conversation without getting kicked to the curb.

Likewise if you had just started exchanging exchanging communication
with a man that was 51 years old and never married, you would ask him
a series of questions to determine that he had serious intentions or if he
was a serial bachelor. Sauce Goose/Sauce Gander.

That's my opinion for what it's worth (approximately two Venezuelan Bolívar) 

Bill
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 14, 2019, 03:01:02 PM
Quote from: 2tallbill

You don't owe anyone on a public forum a reason or a story about why you've never been married, but to a man who was pursuing you romantically for the purpose of marriage would want to know if he had a brain.


Here you're absolutely right :clapping:
Quote from: 2tallbill

Anyone pursuing you has a brain if they've managed to get past the second Skype conversation without getting kicked to the curb.
Shall I take the above phrase as a compliment? (missing a "nail file" smilie, available on Stuart's forum...)
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 14, 2019, 03:07:31 PM
repeating a failed process and expecting a different outcome is also called....???

+1 Agreed.

Doing the exact same thing again and again will produce similar results
with dumb luck being the only variable.

I love dumb luck! I've had more than my fair share of it in this life, but I
don't rely on it. I would constantly review my process and tactics looking
for where I made mistakes and where I needed to improve.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 14, 2019, 03:27:28 PM

Hey Gator, I'm 46 and never married. So what?  8)  Don't think I owe an explanation to anyone  :D

Some exceptions are self-explanatory, certainly the exceptional
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 14, 2019, 03:39:36 PM
Shall I take the above phrase as a compliment?


I was just stating my opinion based on my observations of your public
interactions with others from afar with zero knowledge of your private
life. Who knows? Maybe some handsome Spaniard with six-pack abs
and a vineyard gets all the way to the first Skype message ala Cyrano
de Bergerac, but he needs to have original thoughts once he graduates
to Skype. 

Udachi!

Bill
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on April 14, 2019, 07:25:51 PM

Just my two Russian kopecks: modesty is not it the amount(s), but in the very fact of NOT asking.


This said, 500 + 600 + 800 UAH is quite a sum in UA, keeping in mind the median salary in UA nowadays.


I've spent last weekend in DNK + OZH; a drink in quite a posh restaurant in OZH was 70 UAH only, IIRC.


In the only "after passports" cafe at DNK airport tea (porcelain cup, tea pot, milk or lemon, service) costs 1,5 EUR, with an exchange rate 1 EUR = 30 UAH. Coffee (espresso, cappuccino, americano) = 2 EUR = 60 UAH.

Posh ?   for UAH 70?    mmm  What for?A coffee?

The totals quoted spent is only about USD$75 .
I note your comments  "quite a sum in UA, keeping in mind the median salary in UA nowadays."-- is bordering on the condescending  inane Trenchcoat attitude -- and fundamental lack of understanding of real income in Ukraine.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 14, 2019, 09:22:37 PM
But isn't this gal the same one that drank too much ?????????

No, this is another gal.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 14, 2019, 10:06:06 PM
This forum and recent trip to Ukraine (almost over) has given me a pause to think about many things about this dating scene, professional daters, etc.

Yesterday afternoon (Sunday), this girl and I were walking around Kiev city center and walked by this place called “Tiki bar”.  It was interesting looking from the outside. It was a Hawaiian themed place that advertised Mexican food. She was hesitant to go inside because it looked “too fancy” and she didn’t want me to spend too much money... it’s funny how some Ukrainian girls think so different from others!

Anyway, we went to this place and it was a restaurant/night club in the basement. I thought it was strange that there were all these people (mostly girls) dancing in this club on a Sunday afternoon.  After some time, we saw one of these girls getting in an argument with the manager. As it turns out, most (if not all) of these girls were employees of this bar... hired to drum up business and increase alcohol sales.  The girl I was with was very familiar with the job because she was recently offered such employment at another club.

Then I thought about the girl who wanted an iPhone. She worked as a dating interpreter. I don’t think she was part of an organized scam, but she admitted to situations where girls and interpreters will team up and go on many dates together and drag the dates on for many hours to increase revenue that both will share.  She also previously worked for a pay per letter dating site where she would be compensated for her correspondence with foreign men.

I think she probably saw an iPhone as a reasonable request because she has seen first hand, many men throw gifts at women on the first date. I think what she was missing is these men have probably been corresponding with these women for weeks or months, not a couple days like we were.  Incidentally, I got an message from her asking (for the umpteenth time) what she has to do to get an iPhone from me.  I told her that I would not just buy a phone for a girl I just met. I said MAYBE I would buy one for a girl i was in a relationship with. She thought “relationship” to mean sex, so she tried to confirm that I would buy her an iPhone if she had sex with me.  I told her “no” and tried to explain what I mean by a relationship, but she just didn’t get it.

I think some of these women see everything as transactional “I give you this, so now you give me that”. There is no concept of love, or caring, or anything emotional.... it’s about some version of trading sex for money.  I think it’s sad when people can’t see beyond this word view.

I’m not convinced that this mentality is pervasive amongst Ukrainian women, but I think the dating industry definitely attracts such women.  You have a bunch of eager foreign men with money in hand... it’s easy pickings for savvy women... especially when you can make several times the average monthly wages in a weekend.

For those of you who are still curious about the girl I spent money on... I got a message from her last night telling me she is still really interested in me. I told her I’m leaving and don’t have time to see her, but if she is truly interested, she should keep writing to me until I return to Ukraine.  If she continues to write, I will set things straight and let her know that the gravy train will not continue as it has.

Maybe she is happy with her life getting gifts and money from foreign men and wants to keep doing this, but she is 34 and not getting any younger. Maybe she will realize this is not sustainable and will want to actually settle down with a kid as she claims. This realization finally happened to a “hottie” I met prior to my first trip. She is now with a guy in Romania...

I can say that this foreign dating thing has been quite an experience. It’s not as easy as I thought, but it’s not as hard as I thought either. Time to pack my bags and go back to Chicago. I have been gone for almost four months... I miss my bed!
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on April 15, 2019, 12:48:01 AM
Mr BB --it would seem you have come some distance since you first arrived !! :clapping:

I think some good  observations you have made - I am interested how you see the forum now? ( as distinct from some earlier responses !

One of the points I have made over a period of time is what I call the "normalising" of relationships and contacts  eg  actually making friends in the process -- and I mean just that - a friend/s.
It becomes important for a lot of reasons --you learn a lot more when exposed to more people and learn it faster.
In that process you get to do  normal everyday things -like at home - and become comfortable in the environment.
That is in sharp contrast to the 7 day visit and propose deals of yesteryear! Sure -it could work -- but knowing more is only going to help make better decisions.
Over a period of time -- I became long term friends with many people I have met-- some girls now long ago married and now have children-- some still in the FSU and some around the world.

BB -- on the girl with the car -Is her name Yuliya?




Then I thought about the girl who wanted an iPhone. She worked as a dating interpreter. I don’t think she was part of an organized scam, but she admitted to situations where girls and interpreters will team up and go on many dates together and drag the dates on for many hours to increase revenue that both will share.  She also previously worked for a pay per letter dating site where she would be compensated for her correspondence with foreign men.



I think some of these women see everything as transactional “I give you this, so now you give me that”. There is no concept of love, or caring, or anything emotional.... it’s about some version of trading sex for money.  I think it’s sad when people can’t see beyond this word view.

I’m not convinced that this mentality is pervasive amongst Ukrainian women, but I think the dating industry definitely attracts such women.  You have a bunch of eager foreign men with money in hand... it’s easy pickings for savvy women... especially when you can make several times the average monthly wages in a weekend.


You are "getting" this here !  The web sites/agencies leave the girls with a shocking opinion of men. the paranoid here spend a lot of time on men being scammed -- but all too often fails to recognise what the girls have to endure . The net result of the girls exposure is a very poor impression of western men generally . Also of note  about the dollars -- the girls who work   at it were making over USD$3000 plus a month -- and many $300 or so a week. Plus what they could elicit if the 1 in a hundred actually showed up.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 15, 2019, 02:38:34 AM

Posh?


Yes, one of the best places in OZH.



for UAH 70?   mmm  What for? A coffee?

Yes, a coffee or a pot of mint tea were about UAH 70 \ 75, indeed.


The totals quoted spent is only about USD $75.

Yes, you're right.



I note your comments  "quite a sum in UA, keeping in mind the median salary in UA nowadays."
- is bordering on the condescending  inane Trenchcoat attitude - and fundamental lack of understanding of real income in Ukraine.
My understanding of real income in Ukraine is based on:
- a talk with my childhood friend in OZH, who said the average salary in his city now is around 400 USD;
- official statistics: http://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/wages
- wages one see published openly at work.ua

Based on all the above, I presume the median salary is around $375-400. This said, $75 paid by OP to the girl would most likely constitute approx. 20-25% of her monthly income. Thus I repeat: this is quite a sum in UA.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 15, 2019, 03:12:29 AM
I think some of these women see everything as transactional “I give you this, so now you give me that”.
Well, isn't relationship and marriage all about fair trade?
You give me support - I give you my tenderness.
You improve my life by helping me to move to another country - I improve your life by cooking and cleaning for you, and making sure you have a fresh ironed shirt every morning.
You put that shelf on the wall - I iron your suit.
You give me bright shoulders to hide behind - I give you warm hands that hug you every evening when you return home from work.
I tell you you're the strongest - you tell me I'm the prettiest.


So what's wrong with all these transactions, as long as both sides are giving what they are expected to give - and receiving what they are expecting to receive?
 :popcorn:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 15, 2019, 03:59:34 AM
Well, isn't relationship and marriage all about fair trade?
You give me support - I give you my tenderness.
You improve my life by helping me to move to another country - I improve your life by cooking and cleaning for you, and making sure you have a fresh ironed shirt every morning.
You put that shelf on the wall - I iron your suit.
You give me bright shoulders to hide behind - I give you warm hands that hug you every evening when you return home from work.
I tell you you're the strongest - you tell me I'm the prettiest.


So what's wrong with all these transactions, as long as both sides are giving what they are expected to give - and receiving what they are expecting to receive?
 :popcorn:
The problem with a purely transactional marriage is it lacks commitment. If there is a short term situation where debits do not equal credits, the marriage is over.

I was with a woman who married me for my money. I had a huge financial setback years ago. My investments suffered, I lost my job, I had to sell off two houses.  My wife was only there for pure transaction value.  She left me.

Of course, you can’t keep a good man down, so I bounced back and I am now more successful than I ever was before.  Now, my ex wife is begging me to take her back.

Maybe a purely transactional marriage is good for you, but not me. I prescribe to the traditional American marriage vow of “for richer or poorer. In sickness and in health”.  You can criticize me all you want for this value I hold, but there are tens of millions of people that agree with me... and someday I will marry one of those people.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 15, 2019, 04:06:20 AM
The problem with a purely transactional marriage is it lacks commitment. If there is a short term situation where debits do not equal credits, the marriage is over.

I was with a woman who married me for my money. I had a huge financial setback years ago. My investments suffered, I lost my job, I had to sell off two houses.  My wife was only there for pure transaction value.  She left me.

Of course, you can’t keep a good man down, so I bounced back and I am now more successful than I ever was before.  Now, my ex wife is begging me to take her back.

Maybe a purely transactional marriage is good for you, but not me. I prescribe to the traditional American marriage vow of “for richer or poorer. In sickness and in health”. 


You can criticize me all you want for this value I hold, but there are tens of millions of people that agree with me... and someday I will marry one of those people.


Brownbird, first: where exactly in my post do you see words "money" and "wealth"? Do please kindly point out. Thank you  ;)


Second, the situation you described is just about that - not meeting each other's expectations.
Your ex has obviously expected you to guarantee certain level of income; you failed to fulfill that expectation.
You have obviously expected your ex to stay with you through thick and thin; and here she did not meet your expectations.
 :popcorn:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 15, 2019, 04:15:26 AM

Brownbird, first: where exactly in my post do you see words "money" and "wealth"? Do please kindly point out. Thank you  ;)


Second, the situation you described is just about that - not meeting each other's expectations.
Your ex has obviously expected you to guarantee certain level of income; you failed to fulfill that expectation.
You have obviously expected your ex to stay with you through thick and thin; and here she did not meet your expectations.
 :popcorn:
If you don’t know the difference between sacred marriage vows and unstated expectations, there is no point in discussing this with you any further.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 15, 2019, 05:03:16 AM
If you don’t know the difference between sacred marriage vows and unstated expectations, there is no point in discussing this with you any further.


Well, do please enlighten me  :popcorn:


You really think that "sacred marriage vows" shall hold people together even in cases when one is not meeting the expectations of another?


E.g. expectations not to practice physical and psychological abuse, expectations to lead, expectations to care for the comfort in the joint household, expectations to support, etc.?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: fathertime on April 15, 2019, 06:40:09 AM
Well, isn't relationship and marriage all about fair trade?
You give me support - I give you my tenderness.
You improve my life by helping me to move to another country - I improve your life by cooking and cleaning for you, and making sure you have a fresh ironed shirt every morning.
You put that shelf on the wall - I iron your suit.
You give me bright shoulders to hide behind - I give you warm hands that hug you every evening when you return home from work.
I tell you you're the strongest - you tell me I'm the prettiest.


So what's wrong with all these transactions, as long as both sides are giving what they are expected to give - and receiving what they are expecting to receive?
 :popcorn:
Although I don't necessarily think about this very often, it sounds about right. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 15, 2019, 06:52:46 AM


You really think that "sacred marriage vows" shall hold people together even in cases when one is not meeting the expectations of another?


The vows merely express in words what should already be deep-seated in the heart - commitment to each other.

Nothing is constant in life but change.  Sometimes the change is better, sometimes worse.  Even when "worse" happens, many aspects of life likely remain "good."  Find solace in those aspects and stay committed to the relationship while striving together to right the ship. 

In a relationship,  one must be prepared to make some accommodations, temporary or permanent, because none of us are perfect.   
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: fathertime on April 15, 2019, 06:53:57 AM
The problem with a purely transactional marriage is it lacks commitment. If there is a short term situation where debits do not equal credits, the marriage is over.

Maybe a purely transactional marriage is good for you, but not me. I prescribe to the traditional American marriage vow of “for richer or poorer. In sickness and in health”.  You can criticize me all you want for this value I hold, but there are tens of millions of people that agree with me... and someday I will marry one of those people.

My impression is you spent a few months in the Russian/Ukraine area.   If indeed you view marriage as you stated above, you will indeed want to spend a good amount of time with whoever you decide to eventually bring back.   In between trips, you can always look around the USA in your hometown as well.  The ladies abroad are likely younger/prettier but for what you state you are looking for, it can be found here among ladies right here in the USA.   Foreign women/brides aren't going to be able to know/understand you on the same level as somebody who speaks your language and knows the idiosyncrasies of people in the US culture.   Over a period of years that does of course change and at some point your potential foreign wife will know you as much as you let her know you.   

Personally, I went for the younger/prettier option, but I may not take marriage quite as seriously as you are stating.  I'm sure it is possible to have both younger/prettier AND to have a woman that is seriously devoted even if you aren't fulfilling her needs for a period of time, but I'd say that is probably very very rare.   

Continued good luck in your search, and thanks for sharing aspects of your story. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 15, 2019, 08:08:19 AM
promises can ALWAYS be broken
relationships do not ACTUALLY come with guarantees
money is not the only currency being exchanged

don’t believe in something for nothing
everything in nature operates according to an equilibrium
what you receive must always be balanced against what you give




Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 15, 2019, 09:08:28 AM
Salsa lessons - 120 UAH for one lesson, 650 UAH for 8 lessons.

End result will be once she thinks she has received enough, she will suddenly become "busy".

This post was composed with the aid of google in looking up the cost of salsa lessons.

Either that or she is just getting started and is testing the waters with BB. She wants to see how far she can go with her requests. She has already dropped the vacation in Europe hint.... :popcorn:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 15, 2019, 09:28:38 AM
don’t believe in something for nothing
everything in nature operates according to an equilibrium
what you receive must always be balanced against what you give

I like your explanation.  But continue please.   

"Balance" inevitably becomes a matter of perception because most contributions to a relationship are intangible or non-quantifiable, and thus can not be measured.   Even tangible contributions have different measurement scales. 

Maybe the proper balance is for the man and woman simply try to do their best......and make time to have fun together....and appreciate and respect what the other brings to the relationship......and...and.....   
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 15, 2019, 10:09:01 AM
I think she probably saw an iPhone as a reasonable request because she has seen first hand, many men throw gifts at women on the first date.


No, I don't believe that.  She saw you as a mark.

Quote
I think some of these women see everything as transactional “I give you this, so now you give me that”. There is no concept of love, or caring, or anything emotional.... it’s about some version of trading sex for money.  I think it’s sad when people can’t see beyond this word view.


Men go to a poor country to exploit the women there, and the women see their experiences with them as transactional.  Go figure . . .

Quote
I can say that this foreign dating thing has been quite an experience. It’s not as easy as I thought, but it’s not as hard as I thought either. Time to pack my bags and go back to Chicago.


Personally, I think all you will find is exploiters if you focus on women in their twenties.  You need to find someone closer to your age - at least over 30.


Either that or she is just getting started and is testing the waters with BB. She wants to see how far she can go with her requests. She has already dropped the vacation in Europe hint.... :popcorn:


True.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 15, 2019, 10:11:55 AM
Well, isn't relationship and marriage all about fair trade?
You give me support - I give you my tenderness.
You improve my life by helping me to move to another country - I improve your life by cooking and cleaning for you, and making sure you have a fresh ironed shirt every morning.
You put that shelf on the wall - I iron your suit.
You give me bright shoulders to hide behind - I give you warm hands that hug you every evening when you return home from work.
I tell you you're the strongest - you tell me I'm the prettiest.


So what's wrong with all these transactions, as long as both sides are giving what they are expected to give - and receiving what they are expecting to receive?
 :popcorn:

So what  happens when someone offers one of the partners a better transaction?

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 15, 2019, 10:14:51 AM
HER perception of what YOU give
balanced by
YOUR perception of what SHE gives

for any system to be stable
all opposing forces must be balanced

part of what makes my job so darned easy
is that taking a poor village girl from Ukraine
and introducing her to an upper-class American life-style
does 90% of the work for me
her perception is that I provide it
when in reality my money provides it
what I ACTUALLY supply which she also recognizes
is being her protector, teacher, business partner, human sex toy, etc and also her best friend
she also recognizes the kind of father I am to our children as well
being together, being part of a family
something she never really had before she met me
we give each other that

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 15, 2019, 11:39:13 AM
So what  happens when someone offers one of the partners a better transaction?


I think one shall consider the whole set of "give and take" transactions, involved in every particular marriage.


And also keep in mind the time and energy 2 people invest into "fitting" each other.


So a single "better transaction" offered - even presuming one partner wasn't meeting the expectations of another - might not undermine the marriage; but if the two factor combine (a) one partner isn't anymore meeting the expectations of another, and b) there is a steady "better transaction" offer available) - I wouldn't be surprised that the marriage would become shaky...
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Olga_Mouse on April 15, 2019, 11:40:58 AM
HER perception of what YOU give
balanced by
YOUR perception of what SHE gives

for any system to be stable
all opposing forces must be balanced


Wow! Surprise, surprise! Krimster is capable of making logical conclusions?
 :popcorn:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on April 15, 2019, 12:15:09 PM

Wow! Surprise, surprise! Krimster is capable of making logical conclusions?
 :popcorn:

Yeah-- but you can bet he had his shoes off to figure it out ! :)
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 15, 2019, 12:26:25 PM

I think one shall consider the whole set of "give and take" transactions, involved in every particular marriage.


And also keep in mind the time and energy 2 people invest into "fitting" each other.


So a single "better transaction" offered - even presuming one partner wasn't meeting the expectations of another - might not undermine the marriage; but if the two factor combine (a) one partner isn't anymore meeting the expectations of another, and b) there is a steady "better transaction" offer available) - I wouldn't be surprised that the marriage would become shaky...


Hmm, well, I have never considered any part of my marriage "transactional", nor "give and take".  I am free to do as I wish, as is my better half.   I don't think I ever took time to "fit" to him, and he isn't one who bends, LOL, which is why he was able to survive living in the USSR as a representative of the wrong social class.


The only thing we do apart is, he fishes and I don't.  When we first married, I'd go with him and read, but don't anymore.  He does ask before he goes, but frankly, even if he didn't, it's all good.  If he's fishing in the city, I drive him, as he doesn't want to leave a car parked on the street leading down to the river - too much traffic, potential of it being hit.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 15, 2019, 01:27:09 PM
"Yeah-- but you can bet he had his shoes off to figure it out

I removed my shoes to help snatch de feet from the jaws of victory

 

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 15, 2019, 02:46:13 PM

I think one shall consider the whole set of "give and take" transactions, involved in every particular marriage.


"Give and take" happens every day in an enduring relationship.    IMO give and take transactions should be infrequent if you understand and respect each other. 

Giving and taking should come naturally and from the heart with out transacting.     

I guess I am having a problem with the word "transaction."  It was BB's term, not yours.  A "give and take" transaction seems like a business deal in which something is bartered.

There is nothing to be transacted in the system of my money is our money, and her money is her money.  ;D   

Quote
And also keep in mind the time and energy 2 people invest into "fitting" each other.

Again, maybe I am missing your point.   Fitting into each other is the goal.  If the result is fun and loving,  it  is well worth the investment of time and energy.   Yes?   


Quote
So a single "better transaction" offered - even presuming one partner wasn't meeting the expectations of another - might not undermine the marriage; but if the two factor combine (a) one partner isn't anymore meeting the expectations of another, and b) there is a steady "better transaction" offer available) - I wouldn't be surprised that the marriage would become shaky...

As I answered you earlier, some cases of not ever having married are self-explanatory.   

Olga, you are a valued contributor to RWD, and I am not trying to be flippant nor to offend you.  Discovering a seemingly better offer implies that the person was not committed to the relationship.   Psychologists will advise not to start a new relationship while still in an existing relationship, even a bad one.  Instead focus on reconciling the existing relationship. 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2019, 03:32:02 PM
I think some of these women see everything as transactional “I give you this, so now you give me that”. There is no concept of love, or caring, or anything emotional.... it’s about some version of trading sex for money.  I think it’s sad when people can’t see beyond this word view.


Taking care of someone's needs is a sign of love and care. Money to buy food and necessities is a need. Sex is a need. People can take care of each other's needs without it having to look like a transaction.

In nations where people suffer more and in hunter gather societies, men who can feed a woman and family are more desirable. What good is LOVE if a guy can't feed his family and put clothes on them?

You want a girl that values a strong man that can take care of himself and a family but you don't want a materialistic girl who'd open her legs for any guy that would buy her an iPhone. Good women wouldn't ask you for anything. An FSU woman here once said when a girl asks you for something, it's not about how much she likes you, it's about how much she hates you.

If you were a great find for a woman, the woman wouldn't insult you with requests that may make you run away.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 07:15:06 AM
Let me propose a hypothetical situation. A man marries a woman and she stays at home. She gives him all her love for years. She cooks for him, cleans for him, gives him sex in exchange for him providing for all her physical needs.

One day, the woman is in a bad car accident (her husband was driving) and she is paralyzed.  She is stuck in a wheelchair for the rest of her life.

She can no longer cook or clean for him. She can’t provide for him sexually the way she did before. As far as transactions go, she is pretty much worthless compared to what she was before.

By your transactional philosophy, this man should leave her on the street to die because she no longer provides transactional value. I disagree with this.

Okay, this isn’t hypothetical. It happened.

I want a family that sticks together regardless of the circumstances... not one that runs in the face of adversity. I want a wife who has the moral character to stand by my side when I am down. She benefits in the long run.  If you don’t have such character, that’s fine. It my choice.

The real hypocrisy I see out there (in general) is that I am criticized for having two marriages that ended, yet the same people believe you should not stay in a marriage if you aren’t getting the short term transactional value you want.

Call me naive... I still believe in love.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 16, 2019, 08:03:41 AM
Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be TRUE, regardless of the evidence to prove it with factual certainty
only someone with an exaggerated self-importance would think that THEIR beliefs MUST be accepted by OTHERS
your ex-wives clearly disagreed with your beliefs
you still don't see that all of your "external" problems
are actually "internal" problems
and that's why you keep making the same mistakes over and over and over
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 08:46:33 AM
Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be TRUE, regardless of the evidence to prove it with factual certainty
only someone with an exaggerated self-importance would think that THEIR beliefs MUST be accepted by OTHERS
your ex-wives clearly disagreed with your beliefs
you still don't see that all of your "external" problems
are actually "internal" problems
and that's why you keep making the same mistakes over and over and over

Your logic here is severely flawed, as it usually is. I will make one more feeble attempt to edify you.

If you read my post, you will see that this is the way I see the world. I make no attempt to tell anyone else that they need to view relationships in the same way. To the contrary. Other people are trying to tell me I am wrong for thinking this way. 

I will state again that I believe people are free to see relationships as purely transactional. That is their right.  I do not prescribe to this philosophy and will not try to change people to my point of view.  You can think what you want and I can think what I want.

And no, both ex wives do not disagree with me.  I just returned from Ukraine last night. My second wife picked me up from the airport and took me out to dinner. She said she was wrong and wants me back.  She wishes she never left.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 16, 2019, 10:11:09 AM
“I will make one more feeble attempt to edify you.”

indeed it is feeble...

“If you read my post, you will see that this is the way I see the world.”

I have acknowledged your view...
your expectation is for every woman to automatically comply with YOUR views and that it is unreasonable for a woman to have her own views
you feel this way because you have a fundamental disregard for others' feelings

“And no, both ex wives do not disagree with me.  I just returned from Ukraine last night. My second wife picked me up from the airport and took me out to dinner. She said she was wrong and wants me back.  She wishes she never left.”

they agree with you - yet they divorced you - what a contradiction
contradictions are incompatible with the truth
so it’s “a story"
every self description of yours automatically includes “a story” of how great you are
even your rebuttal is a sign of your sickness
your illness prevents you from seeing the TRUE you instead of the self-aggrandizing fiction you create

stop believing in your own bullshit
no one else does including your ex-wives and the poor girls you met in Ukraine
and me...


Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 11:06:08 AM
“I will make one more feeble attempt to edify you.”

indeed it is feeble...

“If you read my post, you will see that this is the way I see the world.”

I have acknowledged your view...
your expectation is for every woman to automatically comply with YOUR views and that it is unreasonable for a woman to have her own views
you feel this way because you have a fundamental disregard for others' feelings

“And no, both ex wives do not disagree with me.  I just returned from Ukraine last night. My second wife picked me up from the airport and took me out to dinner. She said she was wrong and wants me back.  She wishes she never left.”

they agree with you - yet they divorced you - what a contradiction
contradictions are incompatible with the truth
so it’s “a story"
every self description of yours automatically includes “a story” of how great you are
even your rebuttal is a sign of your sickness
your illness prevents you from seeing the TRUE you instead of the self-aggrandizing fiction you create

stop believing in your own bullshit
no one else does including your ex-wives and the poor girls you met in Ukraine

Do you realize how many hours you have collectively spent on me with your nonsense?

I own you.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 16, 2019, 11:14:20 AM
Do you realize how many hours you have collectively spent on me with your nonsense?

I own you.

The real champion title of owning others here belongs to Trench.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 11:16:58 AM
The real champion title of owning others here belongs to Trench.

I will never achieve that level of notoriety.

I have to be realistic in my goals...
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 16, 2019, 11:19:53 AM
you only own yourself
don't worry about me
I have 3 monitors in front of me
while chatting here
I have also compiled 29,000 lines of hand written VHDL on one monitor
and finished editing the HTML for the online store for a scanner product I'm selling on another one
I think people call this multi-tasking
I'm buying a new PC this month because the newer ones will let me have 4 monitors




 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 11:24:55 AM
you only own yourself
don't worry about me
I have 3 monitors in front of me
while chatting here
I have also compiled 29,000 lines of hand written VHDL on one monitor
and finished editing the HTML for the online store for a scanner product I'm selling on another one
I think people call this multi-tasking
I'm buying a new PC this month because the newer ones will let me have 4 monitors
Then you can dedicate a whole monitor just for me?

Dayum
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 16, 2019, 11:32:31 AM
"then you can dedicate a whole monitor just for me?"


do you think you're that important?
rhetorical question since I already know the answer
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 12:26:16 PM
"then you can dedicate a whole monitor just for me?"


do you think you're that important?
rhetorical question since I already know the answer

I don’t think I am that important at all.

That’s why I don’t understand why you stalk me.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 16, 2019, 12:34:18 PM
"That’s why I don’t understand why you stalk me."

narcissist said what?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 12:45:14 PM
"That’s why I don’t understand why you stalk me."

narcissist said what?
You aren’t?

Okay, let’s see if you can go a week without coming on one of my threads and posting your pointless drivel. You can’t do it. You are obsessed with me. You aren’t capable of leaving me alone. I’m sure you will provide some “legitimate” reason why you follow me around, but the truth is, you are obsessed with me and can’t leave me alone.

You are truly pathetic
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 16, 2019, 01:07:26 PM
WOWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!
you got me
I can’t help but be obsessed with an amazing guy like yourself
whether it’s getting your MBA at Harvard while simultaneously working full-time as a top level executive at a pharmaceutical company or the incredible success you have in relationships
you’re just the most amazing guy ever!!!!  the GREATEST!!!
who wouldn’t be obsessed over that!!!!

but as for me, I don’t obey your orders, sorry...
will continue to do as I please
if you don’t want to hear things about yourself that don’t reinforce your bullshit
check out the ignore button, then you won’t hear it
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 01:29:08 PM
WOWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!
you got me
I can’t help but be obsessed with an amazing guy like yourself
whether it’s getting your MBA at Harvard while simultaneously working full-time as a top level executive at a pharmaceutical company or the incredible success you have in relationships
you’re just the most amazing guy ever!!!!  the GREATEST!!!
who wouldn’t be obsessed over that!!!!

but as for me, I don’t obey your orders, sorry...
will continue to do as I please
if you don’t want to hear things about yourself that don’t reinforce your bullshit
check out the ignore button, then you won’t hear it
Wow. You couldn’t even go an hour.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 16, 2019, 01:33:24 PM
obviously, I wasn't EVEN trying to, I thought it was clear, that you're the only one "playing this game"
you probably have a bit of jet lag, so no worries...
did you bring back a nesting doll?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 16, 2019, 03:14:04 PM
Either that or she is just getting started and is testing the waters with BB. She wants to see how far she can go with her requests. She has already dropped the vacation in Europe hint.... :popcorn:

Such girls can be difficult. After the last girl I was with paying for stuff like Salsa lessons would be a no go outside of a living together relationship. I think it is important to rule a line between what she would get an what stage in a relationship otherwise she would keep hitting BB for stuff, there like that those girls, they come out with a logical reason for him buying her this that and the other. If he puts forward a real dividing line between what she gets at different stages of a relationship she could be easier to deal with. Basically rule out all spending on her in regular dating that is not to do with that date.

Interestingly, it would be interesting for BB to tell her after marriage he controls her finances, she how she reacts :)
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 16, 2019, 03:47:10 PM
Such girls can be difficult. After the last girl I was with paying for stuff like Salsa lessons would be a no go outside of a living together relationship. I think it is important to rule a line between what she would get an what stage in a relationship otherwise she would keep hitting BB for stuff, there like that those girls, they come out with a logical reason for him buying her this that and the other. If he puts forward a real dividing line between what she gets at different stages of a relationship she could be easier to deal with. Basically rule out all spending on her in regular dating that is not to do with that date.

Interestingly, it would be interesting for BB to tell her after marriage he controls her finances, she how she reacts :)
I was wondering if she has created a situation that directly ties sex to money, which may cause her to withhold sex as long as possible.  I can picture the gifts getting bigger and bigger and eventually the guy realizes he is not getting any value from this transaction, so he leaves.  If she does sleep with a guy when he is about to stop giving gifts, then the transaction is now complete and everyone got what they wanted.  Unless the sex was the best ever, I could see a man putting another “Ukrainian hottie” notch in his belt and moving on.... but I am not into transactional relationships, so this is just speculation
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 16, 2019, 04:16:09 PM
I was wondering if she has created a situation that directly ties sex to money, which may cause her to withhold sex as long as possible.  I can picture the gifts getting bigger and bigger and eventually the guy realizes he is not getting any value from this transaction, so he leaves.  If she does sleep with a guy when he is about to stop giving gifts, then the transaction is now complete and everyone got what they wanted.  Unless the sex was the best ever, I could see a man putting another “Ukrainian hottie” notch in his belt and moving on.... but I am not into transactional relationships, so this is just speculation

I think that is generally what would happen. As I found giving into a UW demands/requests is ultimately a self defeating method. I found that the more I gave my girl the more she asked. I almost felt that it was doing the relationship damage. Time over again I wouldn't give in its a one way street to relationship destruction. After all few people can afford to stand in shops all day every day buying stuff. So in the end it becomes unsustainable. If you just want a girl to put out then you're better off not giving into her demands/requests, it tells her she has to actually 'give' you something tangible in return, so hold out until talk turns to a more intimate nature. Generally it's not usually much of formal talk about this for that but she'll get on the wavelength once she knows you're not buying the young nun carry on. She'll then either decides she is willing to do it with you or make off. For some girls I hear it's all part of the dating game out there, not just foreigners, locals also, it's like gameplay, cat and mouse if you will, all a bit of fun for them to play over what they can get and what they give.

The iPhone girl sounds like a agency/prodate girl and is the type to avoid if you aren't just after a quickie. You could have some fun and try and see what you can beat her down to. Odds are she'll settle for less than an iPhone for doing it, you don't have to do it with her of course, just out of interest.

The Salsa dancing lessons girls might be remdeemable. Problem tends to be once she gets something beyond the usual dating expenses stuff you have shown that you have given her something for which you shouldn't have so can be taken. Hence why some say it's quiet likely too late. You could try and learn more by keeping up contact or if pushed for time might be better talking to a new girl.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 16, 2019, 05:35:45 PM
Interestingly, I contacted the girl I was with last (Kherson girl, the second girl I met in Kiev) about a year ago now. I did so as she would have turned 26 (27 now) and thought the time might have caused her to think how good she had it with me compared to any other guys she been in contact with since. I don't think she had much luck as she lives out in Kherson where not many foreigners tend to go. There is the AFA tour but she apparently doesn't go and considers the girls who go as prostitutes for some reason. I don't think they are, I don't think she goes either, I think it is more she doesn't like anyone to know here dating life for whatever reason, family, friends or reputation maybe.

Anyway, time had not healed, she stated it was 'too late now', I had been unable to move on a visa since she earned too little which she blamed me for, after I had bought her a load of stuff on holiday, etc. That seemed to count for little long term good will however. She refused to see me where she lived as she said I promised her for her to see me in the UK.

What was most interesting was when I said about contacting her to see if she had matured (in a matter of speak) she replied that 'she still likes clothes'. She also said that she had never lied to me, just manipulative then which she seems to have no problem with, lol.

Main point of me bringing this up BB is I'm not convinced such girls are totally into scamming guys. As someone pointed out if they went to an agency they could get a lot more money The girl I was with had not been online on her profile for several months prior to out first meeting in Kiev (we had moved to Email & WhatsApp) and I looked at other sites and she had no profile.

So it's a curiosity. Now I have heard that some girls do it to test a guy, I don't mean to see if he's got the money but to test that you are not a push over. It gets a bit psychological at this point, a bit weird perhaps. It could stand to reason that they don't want a guy who is a pushover as in their society they probably wouldn't do well. I though still think that apart from gameplay it may just be something driving the behaviour of these women. They have wants but handled wrongly and giving in to them can be destructive to the relationship.

Thinking it over such girls probably see it as fair game playing for stuff in a relationship. I get the impression they lack the understanding that WM and many other FSW do of what it takes a relationship to work. Taking the 90 day fiancé, Jorge & Anfisa again, Anfisa tries to claim that Jorge should give her loads of expensive stuff but seems oblivious that it's not doing the relationship any good. Would be interesting to hear about any guy that has managed to deal with such demanding women.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Davo on April 16, 2019, 05:49:40 PM
Although privately I’ve chatted with members that have met wonderful Ukrainian women that aren’t focused on their wallets,  it seems that a bulk of this materialistic behaviour and profiteering in members trip reports occurs in Ukraine..... is this because the romance money making machine is more entrenched this country? Or maybe more men are travelling there?

My recent experience was completely the opposite. Everyday she protected my wallet and searched for the cheapest option to make my money go further. The last night I decided to surprise her with a luxury hotel room in the most expensive place in town. She was greatful, but I could see she was a little uncomfortable at the expense (it was actually cheap compared with the same room in the Hilton at home). The next morning she refused to eat breakfast there and took me to the supermarket and then cooked for me. I’m glad she did, as she’s an amazing cook!! 😊

I couldn’t imagine spending even 10 minutes with some of the women described on this site.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 16, 2019, 06:14:23 PM
Although privately I’ve chatted with members that have met wonderful Ukrainian women that aren’t focused on their wallets,  it seems that a bulk of this materialistic behaviour and profiteering in members trip reports occurs in Ukraine..... is this because the romance money making machine is more entrenched this country? Or maybe more men are travelling there?

My recent experience was completely the opposite. Everyday she protected my wallet and searched for the cheapest option to make my money go further. The last night I decided to surprise her with a luxury hotel room in the most expensive place in town. She was greatful, but I could see she was a little uncomfortable at the expense (it was actually cheap compared with the same room in the Hilton at home). The next morning she refused to eat breakfast there and took me to the supermarket and then cooked for me. I’m glad she did, as she’s an amazing cook!! 😊

I couldn’t imagine spending even 10 minutes with some of the women described on this site.

Clearly the ideal Davo, think it's luck of the draw sometimes. Sometimes the girl will give herself away in messaging. I think when meeting a fair amount of UW the tendency is to come across most types as BB seems to have found. Was there the necessary chemistry with your girl Davo?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Davo on April 16, 2019, 07:04:52 PM
Clearly the ideal Davo, think it's luck of the draw sometimes. Sometimes the girl will give herself away in messaging. I think when meeting a fair amount of UW the tendency is to come across most types as BB seems to have found. Was there the necessary chemistry with your girl Davo?

I only considered this path due to this one woman. We had great chemistry online and it was more evident from the moment we met.

To be honest, when we first chatted over coffee, it was very comfortable.... like two life long friends would interact with each other and it only got better from that point. Nothing was off limits and she was very honest and open with even the most personal aspects of her life.

I’ve now know her for well over 2 years and have not seen one red flag or even the slightest change in her mentality. She has a very stable and consistently personality and without doubt the most positive out look on life I’ve ever experienced with any woman I’ve dated.... nothing phases her!!

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 16, 2019, 07:19:16 PM
I only considered this path due to this one woman. We had great chemistry online and it was more evident from the moment we met.

To be honest, when we first chatted over coffee, it was very comfortable.... like two life long friends would interact with each other and it only got better from that point. Nothing was off limits and she was very honest and open with even the most personal aspects of her life.

I’ve now know her for well over 2 years and have not seen one red flag or even the slightest change in her mentality. She has a very stable and consistently personality and without doubt the most positive out look on life I’ve ever experienced with any woman I’ve dated.... nothing phases her!!

2 years???? I know some guys like to really get to know a girl first but I wonder if you're dragging your heels Davo. If there is chemistry, she is genuine and you get on great why not take the next step?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Davo on April 16, 2019, 07:46:13 PM
2 years???? I know some guys like to really get to know a girl first but I wonder if you're dragging your heels Davo. If there is chemistry, she is genuine and you get on great why not take the next step?

We were friends at first online and there was no thought of it ever being romantic, but eventually that changed.

When we first met online, I was in the middle of divorce proceedings and also fighting a fabricated DV order (intervention order in Australia). It took a further 8 months to get the DV order thrown out of court and a year and a half to finalise my divorce (over 3 years in total). I was in no position to travel due to court and being awarded full custody of my children early on in proceedings.... honestly, it wouldn’t be fair to bring anyone serious into my life while going through all that BS. 

Taking the next step at the moment is meeting again in the next four months and seeing how we still feel about each other. I’m not stupid enough to get engaged after 3 weeks of real life time together. I’ve seen far too many divorced friends make obvious bad choices as they are lonely and end up divorced again.... I’m not going to be that guy!!

In all reality it’s probably a 50/50 chance of anything eventuating. Her ex has a good relationship with their young daughter, so he could throw a spanner in the works and also it would be a big decision for her to move and she has said she would for the right man, but she has a great lifestyle and her job takes her all over Europe. Her family are close by and she has many wonderful friends. It would be a big sacrifice to leave all that behind.

Despite the stereotype.... most people I met were not desperate to leave, they were happy with their life and infact the couple I had dinner with the last night said they felt a greater sense of freedom in Russia, than other European countries they lived in.... he’s an airline pilot.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 16, 2019, 08:59:29 PM
We were friends at first online and there was no thought of it ever being romantic, but eventually that changed.

When we first met online, I was in the middle of divorce proceedings and also fighting a fabricated DV order (intervention order in Australia). It took a further 8 months to get the DV order thrown out of court and a year and a half to finalise my divorce (over 3 years in total). I was in no position to travel due to court and being awarded full custody of my children early on in proceedings.... honestly, it wouldn’t be fair to bring anyone serious into my life while going through all that BS. 

Taking the next step at the moment is meeting again in the next four months and seeing how we still feel about each other. I’m not stupid enough to get engaged after 3 weeks of real life time together. I’ve seen far too many divorced friends make obvious bad choices as they are lonely and end up divorced again.... I’m not going to be that guy!!

In all reality it’s probably a 50/50 chance of anything eventuating. Her ex has a good relationship with their young daughter, so he could throw a spanner in the works and also it would be a big decision for her to move and she has said she would for the right man, but she has a great lifestyle and her job takes her all over Europe. Her family are close by and she has many wonderful friends. It would be a big sacrifice to leave all that behind.

Despite the stereotype.... most people I met were not desperate to leave, they were happy with their life and infact the couple I had dinner with the last night said they felt a greater sense of freedom in Russia, than other European countries they lived in.... he’s an airline pilot.

Ah I see, that if course makes sense. I've never done divorce but have seen how ongoing civil court cases can take there toll and not be a pleasant environment to bring to a new relationship.

I get the impression the state of the woman's life in Russia or Ukraine makes a difference. Once I was watching a vid on You Tube, it was this guy around retirement age from the US I think. He had a job teaching English in Russia which was where he lived with his Russian wife around similar age. Anyway he said one of the things he likes that in Russia you can just get on with your life and you are left to it which you don't find a lot in the west.

I think in the west we have ended up with a lot of promoting of issues and social ills. A lot of the time people are being promoted or take it upon themselves to poke their nose into others business. For me I've always quite like the somewhat archaic feel of Ukraine with it comes a feeling that people aren't going to be too stiff in the main. I find there can be a nice family side to matters also if in the right places.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Davo on April 16, 2019, 09:38:59 PM
I spent time with middle / upper middle class citizens. I suspect people in lower socioeconomic situations would have something different to say on the matter.

At the supermarket there was an old lady (Maybe 80) begging for money. I took her shopping and she was very appreciative. After I talked to “k” about the pension and struggles old people faced. “K” had helped this woman and others like her also. In her words she stated “it’s disgusting how old people are treated by the state!!”

She’s also very vocal about the lack of support for single mothers. She realises she’s one of the lucky ones, with a well paid job, owns her own apartment and a ex husband that pays child support. Often the ex husbands don’t pay their child support and the women recieve very little from the state. With low paying jobs, food, rent and utilities, many struggle.

It’s this caring nature that first attracted me to her. During correspondence she would send videos of her helping to raise money for the local orphanage. She has a lot of empathy and time for the less fortunate, especially children. This caring nature gave me no doubt that she was a genuine, honest women long before we met.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: BillyB on April 16, 2019, 10:51:45 PM
I want a family that sticks together regardless of the circumstances... not one that runs in the face of adversity.


What you want is what many of us want. A quality person. Quality people are in demand and when they get married, they tend to stay married. What's left isn't very appealing. Got to go through a lot of people to find a winner. Some men give their all to the first woman they write to and date. They rely on luck to bring a quality woman in their life. Chances are they're going to be disappointed.

I have a friend who has a younger sister. Knew her since high school. She went boating with her boyfriend many years ago. He went for a swim and came to the rear of the boat to climb back in. The propeller was still engaged and was spinning. Sliced up his leg which in turn had to be amputated. She stuck by her one legged man. They later married and had kids.

Last year he divorced her. She was addicted to alcohol so bad, she'd be drunk during her kids birthday parties embarrassing them. Worked as a dental assistant and stole pain killing medicine for herself. Her husband tried to get her help, stuck by her side during struggles with addiction, and gave her many chances but he finally had enough and ended the marriage.

A friend of mine who graduated from Bible college said there are 3 valid reasons to get divorce. Abuse, adultery, and abandonment are it. In my friend's sister's case, she basically abandoned her marriage due to her addictions.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Davo on April 16, 2019, 11:23:27 PM
“Got to go through a lot of people to find a winner”......and you need a lot of luck!!

After I became single, I met a great woman who eventually moved away. I would have been quite happy to spend the rest of my life with her. After I dated 8 more women in short term and casual relationships over two years, it was pretty clear none  of them I would consider marrying. They were good fun to be with, but I didn’t feel that all consuming feeling / connection you have with someone you would marry.

So I’m my experience, at least 9 in10 women you date won’t be the one you walk down the aisle with, especially when you’re middle aged and dealing with all the baggage that comes with past relationships.


Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 17, 2019, 12:50:06 AM
Hi Davo,

I was going to jump in on your assertion and 'mock it'...as I was going to tell you "this was not my experience" as an older guy back on the dating scene.

I would say all the ladies I dated were keepers, but I was the guy with the baggage.

When it came down to passion ..I could not stop wishing I was with my former wife

I was looking for anyone that could make me think of being with them...when walking hand in hand, shopping and other ,perhaps more intimate, moments..

So, your point re baggage IS valid.... 

The most important thing to work out is if both of you want to be with the other and are not still dreaming of the past!

I was dating, locally and it was a FSU W who can and does  pull guys 20 years younger.. who made me realise that I was the one still holding the baggage and what an idiot I was.,..and how unfair I was being.

You really did make a good point!

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 17, 2019, 08:32:07 AM
I just got an interesting text from the girl who wanted me to buy her an iPhone.  She started in with accusations, saying “I know it was you!”

I had no idea what she was talking about.  Eventually, she told me that they took her profile down on the dating site because some guy reported her. I asked her if she has been on any other recent dates and she said “yes”.

So, it looks like she has been trying her antics on other guys and they weren’t as good humored about it as I was...
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 08:52:03 AM
“Got to go through a lot of people to find a winner”......and you need a lot of luck!!

After I became single, I met a great woman who eventually moved away. I would have been quite happy to spend the rest of my life with her. After I dated 8 more women in short term and casual relationships over two years, it was pretty clear none  of them I would consider marrying. They were good fun to be with, but I didn’t feel that all consuming feeling / connection you have with someone you would marry.

So I’m my experience, at least 9 in10 women you date won’t be the one you walk down the aisle with, especially when you’re middle aged and dealing with all the baggage that comes with past relationships.

Think this raises the question of what constitutes the guy as a winner in the girl's eye also. As men we tend to have an idea of the perfect girl as Davo has shown with the FSW he is in communication with.

IDK but while I like a girl or people in general with social empathy and thought as I do so to a point myself I would find too much of it difficult to bear over time. Some people go on humanitarian missions, go migrant hugging, etc, but that's just not me. I believe also in practicalities and what I see as sensible responses to a situation. I also believe in real people that aren't goody two shoes but don't fall into the bad people category either. I'm not saying Davo'd girl is goody goody btw just that it sparked the thought in my mind that some people are of course.

I think in fact that some people with a bit of an edge to them in certain areas can add a bit of interest to them so long as it does not make them an out and out bad person. Yet sometimes this may make it difficult to deal with them. Perhaps it takes a complimentary personality to fit, idk.

I've come across at least one girl in my FSU travels where she seemed a decent genuine person for the most part but natural chemistry was not present. I'm not really sure beyond that how women see men. Back to the vid I mentioned the other day, the tour one with Yuri in it, one of the tour destinations was Kherson and one of the girls had less than positive things to say about the guys she saw there. Basically they were half drunk, drink in hand going around leering at all the girls sat on the tables each in turn. Beyond drunks, mental and druggies though I guess there is always the values a man holds as well as the woman. On that I think maybe it's a case of finding someone that holds similar values, not necessarily exactly the same personality but a complimentary personality. The farther from that then the more problems perhaps.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 08:54:25 AM
I just got an interesting text from the girl who wanted me to buy her an iPhone.  She started in with accusations, saying “I know it was you!”

I had no idea what she was talking about.  Eventually, she told me that they took her profile down on the dating site because some guy reported her. I asked her if she has been on any other recent dates and she said “yes”.

So, it looks like she has been trying her antics on other guys and they weren’t as good humored about it as I was...

Presumably if she messaged every guy the same chances are the one who did it would think she has rumbled him, it's probably what she is doing, lol.

Seems she doesn't like the shoe being in the other foot when she is the one taking the hit :)
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 17, 2019, 09:23:55 AM
Presumably if she messaged every guy the same chances are the one who did it would think she has rumbled him, it's probably what she is doing, lol.

Seems she doesn't like the shoe being in the other foot when she is the one taking the hit :)
She is pissed off, but has absolutely no self awareness that her behavior led to the current situation. I told her that she did me wrong and I have no doubt that there are several men that are angry with her if she does this regularly. In our conversation, she basically admitted that she makes her living off of translating for agency dates and getting dates to give her money and gifts.

When I wouldn’t give her an iPhone, she made a reference to “karma”. Today I put it back to her that her karma is catching up with her for using so many men.  She said she was doing these men a favor because most of them would normally meet women through an agency and she is saving them money because she doesn’t charge an agency fee or translator fee when she goes out on a date with a man.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 17, 2019, 09:34:12 AM
she is saving them money because she doesn’t charge an agency fee or translator fee when she goes out on a date with a man.

Yes she does charge a fee . . . an Iphone + cosmetics, etc.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 09:53:39 AM
She is pissed off, but has absolutely no self awareness that her behavior led to the current situation. I told her that she did me wrong and I have no doubt that there are several men that are angry with her if she does this regularly. In our conversation, she basically admitted that she makes her living off of translating for agency dates and getting dates to give her money and gifts.

When I wouldn’t give her an iPhone, she made a reference to “karma”. Today I put it back to her that her karma is catching up with her for using so many men.  She said she was doing these men a favor because most of them would normally meet women through an agency and she is saving them money because she doesn’t charge an agency fee or translator fee when she goes out on a date with a man.

Looks to me that she is trying to justify her bad behaviour with a 'they would get done over worse anyway if it were not for me even though I still do them over'. Could be a learning opportunity here, perhaps ask her 'don't you really want to find a partner other than just goods for sex?'.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 17, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
Looks to me that she is trying to justify her bad behaviour with a 'they would get done over worse anyway if it were not for me even though I still do them over'. Could be a learning opportunity here, perhaps ask her 'don't you really want to find a partner other than just goods for sex?'.
I tried, but she isn’t hearing it.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 10:09:03 AM
I tried, but she isn’t hearing it.

Yeah, they always seem to not want to know about that one despite it supposed to bring the reason they are there. Looks to me such women are just selfish and see it as a game with the guys as fair game to be duped. Funny that she doesn't see it that she can hardly cry foul when some guy gets her profile pulled, lol.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 17, 2019, 10:10:49 AM
I tried, but she isn’t hearing it.

I once went on three dates with a RW who liked sex and was very good at it.

But she had some serious flaws otherwise with respect to being a good long-term partner.

After I was back in USA, I sent her message outlining some of her 'short-comings' and said I was trying to help her in future relationships.

She took my message, changed the exact words directed toward her to words directed toward me, and sent to me saying she was trying to help me in my future relationships.

Made for pretty funny reading because most of the items made no sense coming from woman to man . . . even as I probably had some other serious flaws.

So anyway, a big waste of time trying to be helpful.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 17, 2019, 10:14:24 AM
whether you guys realize it or not
you’re all actively playing a game called, “I give you stuff and you give me pooty-tang”
so if you don’t play by the rules and “give her stuff” you can’t complain about not winning the game and collecting your "prize"...

is this the only game you guys know how to play?
maybe try a different game?

don't go to a "baseball field" if you don't want to play baseball
find a different setting to play "your" game

tryin to be helpful...
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 10:19:56 AM
I once went on three dates with a RW who liked sex and was very good at it.

But she had some serious flaws otherwise with respect to being a good long-term partner.

After I was back in USA, I sent her message outlining some of her 'short-comings' and said I was trying to help her in future relationships.

She took my message, changed the exact words directed toward her to words directed toward me, and sent to me saying she was trying to help me in my future relationships.

Made for pretty funny reading because most of the items made no sense coming from woman to man . . . even as I probably had some other serious flaws.

So anyway, a big waste of time trying to be helpful.

Indeed ML, UW can be very obstinate and can fail to see that they would actually benefit if they considered it. Those type of women seem too short sighted and stubborn for there own good.

The girl in this case probably fails to grasp that she could get a lot more by getting with one of her 'clients' in a proper relationship. Funny thing is she is really only demeaning herself when she thinks she is demeaning the guy.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Nightwish on April 17, 2019, 11:01:56 AM
Indeed ML, UW can be very obstinate and can fail to see that they would actually benefit if they considered it. Those type of women seem too short sighted and stubborn for there own good.

The girl in this case probably fails to grasp that she could get a lot more by getting with one of her 'clients' in a proper relationship. Funny thing is she is really only demeaning herself when she thinks she is demeaning the guy.

That was a real generalization of UW.. How do you know anything about that?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 17, 2019, 11:21:06 AM
That was a real generalization of UW.. How do you know anything about that?

Trench has spent holiday time with one UA lady, understands Russian / Ukrainian and knows how to pull - by simply turning up and checking out the parks ..

how can you doubt our resident expert in UW ?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Nightwish on April 17, 2019, 11:31:47 AM
Trench has spent holiday time with one UA lady, understands Russian / Ukrainian and knows how to pull - by simply turning up and checking out the parks ..

how can you doubt our resident expert in UW ?

He accused me earlier to be aggressive in my tone against him, guess the little snowflake is fragile.

So now I ask him simple questions without any tone and hope he will at least answer - although the last 4-5 times I have asked him something- he ignored them.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 17, 2019, 11:42:57 AM
He accused me earlier to be aggressive in my tone against him, guess the little snowflake is fragile.

So now I ask him simple questions without any tone and hope he will at least answer - although the last 4-5 times I have asked him something- he ignored them.

I'm to the point I just skip over anything he posts. Makes for better reading.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 17, 2019, 11:52:10 AM
whether you guys realize it or not
you’re all actively playing a game called, “I give you stuff and you give me pooty-tang”
so if you don’t play by the rules and “give her stuff” you can’t complain about not winning the game...

is this the only game you guys know how to play?
maybe try a different game?

don't go to a "baseball field" if you don't want to play baseball
find a different setting to play "your" game

tryin to be helpful...

Yup.  I was going to post about the irony in this -

She is pissed off, but has absolutely no self awareness

but you posted it better, and more kindly.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 17, 2019, 11:58:27 AM
BO, you would make a great "muse"!!!!
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 17, 2019, 12:54:06 PM
I think that some people are missing the point that I’m not trying to win at this money for sex game. I don’t want to play it at all. In my last trip, only two girls asked for money.  I had sex with some other girls, but I didn’t give anything of monetary value to them.  Okay, one I bought dinner in a cheap cafe and another  one I bought two drinks at a bar.

I find there to be an inverse correlation between spending money and getting sex.

Which brings me back to the “transactional relationship” discussion. I don’t see many women benefiting from men seeing relationships this way. I can hire a cleaning service to clean my house and a chef to cook me meals far cheaper than the cost of a wife.  In Kiev, I can get. 22 year old prostitute every night of the week for only 1000 UAH.  If it’s just about transactions, I have everything covered for a small fraction of the price (and time and paperwork) it costs me to marry someone.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 17, 2019, 01:19:27 PM
there are many “mediums of exchange” besides money
there’s an expression I learned in Mandarin, “wei wu wei”
in English it means “nothing for nothing”
you give nothing...you get nothing....

so....
if you want to receive something, what should you do....?????

BTW, Mr Beard
I’m actually trying to help you

you need to recognize your condition and get some therapy
no shame involved in this AT ALL

if you don’t, unless you’re VERY lucky
ALL of your future relationships will end up like your past relationships

I spent time in therapy as a teenager to get my Asperger’s symptoms under control
(obsessively counting, rhyming speech, and oddball eccentric behavior)
I could’ve blamed other people for their responses to my behavior
as opposed to changing my behavior
that’s a decision for you to make

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 17, 2019, 01:29:49 PM
I think that some people are missing the point that I’m not trying to win at this money for sex game.

So you went to one of the poorest countries in Europe, where you don't speak the language, or know the culture, to find a potential bride about half your age.  You boasted here about bedding at least two, perhaps three (can't recall) of these young women the first night you met, yet your motives are "pure as the driven snow".  Plus, these much younger women were attracted to your Zac Efron-like looks and six pack abs, rather than  your wallet.

OK.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Grumpy on April 17, 2019, 01:38:43 PM
there are many “mediums of exchange” besides money
there’s an expression I learned in Mandarin, “wei wu wei”
in English it means “nothing for nothing”
you give nothing...you get nothing....





If the woman is not having more "fun" than the man.....perhaps you're not doing it right.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 17, 2019, 01:41:41 PM
"If the woman is not having more "fun" than the man.....perhaps you're not doing it right."


i don't know about more, but at least "some"
customer satisfaction is the key to success for all "business"
I ALWAYS say, "please come again"!!!
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 17, 2019, 01:50:34 PM
So you went to one of the poorest countries in Europe, where you don't speak the language, or know the culture, to find a potential bride about half your age.  You boasted here about bedding at least two, perhaps three (can't recall) of these young women the first night you met, yet your motives are "pure as the driven snow".  Plus, these much younger women were attracted to your Zac Efron-like looks and six pack abs, rather than  your wallet.

OK.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

You are putting words in my mouth.

I never stated their motives. I just said these women didn’t ask me for money.  I never gave the ages either. I never claimed to look like Zac Efron. I never told you what my abs look like. I didn’t say which night/date we had sex.

I wasn’t boasting either. I was correcting the previous statement that I was “losing” at the sex game because I wasn’t playing correctly.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 02:02:48 PM
whether you guys realize it or not
you’re all actively playing a game called, “I give you stuff and you give me pooty-tang”
so if you don’t play by the rules and “give her stuff” you can’t complain about not winning the game...

is this the only game you guys know how to play?
maybe try a different game?

don't go to a "baseball field" if you don't want to play baseball
find a different setting to play "your" game

tryin to be helpful...

Think the problem is the guys that don't realise this is the game some of these pro daters play. Would be better if those sites where they mainly exist just state what they are offering, then the guys that want that can go there and other ones  who don't want that can go elsewhere. Guessing the sites wouldn't get all the message writing they get but instead the guys would want to get right to the point of it all.

The other girl BB met still interests me, seems that there are another group of girls who don't want to go fully pro date but still want a few fringe benefits, a kind of half way house if you like. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on that one?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 17, 2019, 02:11:50 PM
You are putting words in my mouth.

No, I'm not.  I am responding to what you have posted.

Quote
I never stated their motives. I just said these women didn’t ask me for money.  I never gave the ages either. I never claimed to look like Zac Efron. I never told you what my abs look like. I didn’t say which night/date we had sex.

Yes you did.  See your posts above.


In another thread, you posted specifically of how other posters here were wrong, because you had a twenty something lawyer in your bed within hours of meeting her. (I won't go into the cultural reasons why assuming a Ukrainian lawyer bears any resemblance to a lawyer in a common law jurisdiction is seriously flawed.)  Wow.  You managed to bed a woman in Ukraine quickly.  That's about as accomplished as reading the first line of Moby Dick.

But, I digress.  I was referring to your motives as well as theirs. Your posts indicate your motives, whether you wish to admit them or not.  It's not a criticism of you, just reality.  You are no different from the women you are criticizing.  You just come at it from the opposite side.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 17, 2019, 02:14:11 PM
Think the problem is the guys that don't realise this is the game some of these pro daters play.


Men who go to Ukraine with less than stellar motives is what creates these "pro daters".  Don't blame the women.  They are responding to market forces.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 17, 2019, 02:19:49 PM
BO

the fictional sexual escapades are just another "self aggrandizing story" of his like getting an MBA at Harvard while simultaneously working full-time as a pharmaceutical executive
his avatar must be a couple of decades old, I saw the picture he posted of himself taken several years ago....trust me on this one!!!!
he has NO clue...
his stories are just what he thinks would happen to a SUCCESSFUL man in his situation so that's what he wrote
not realizing  that SOME of us know fact from fiction
and a successful man from an unsuccessful man
if he had some woman, ANY woman to sleep with in Kyiv, he'd have started a K1 visa for her faster than Trump could say "NO COLLUSION"

dewd, seriously, get help....
cuz if people on a blog can see "through you" it must be trivial to do so in person...




Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Grumpy on April 17, 2019, 02:46:05 PM
(I won't go into the cultural reasons why assuming a Ukrainian lawyer bears any resemblance to a lawyer in a common law jurisdiction is seriously flawed.) 

Perhaps you could start a new thread elaborating on this. Just curious on the differences.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 02:59:56 PM

Men who go to Ukraine with less than stellar motives is what creates these "pro daters".  Don't blame the women.  They are responding to market forces.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

True, I was just saying it would be handy for these people to have a more clearer venue for such antics. Otherwise those not interested get caught in the middle of what they genuinely never intended to get into.

I think it's probably just human nature that those with a more base nature tend to turn up in these sort of places.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 17, 2019, 03:08:12 PM
Perhaps you could start a new thread elaborating on this. Just curious on the differences.


1.  A huge number of diplomas in Ukraine are purchased, with the diploma holder never having set foot in a classroom.  I know admissions is corrupt in the US, but it's at a whole different level in Ukraine.


2.  Ukraine has no rule of law. 


Those are the two biggest.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 17, 2019, 03:09:40 PM
True, I was just saying it would be handy for these people to have a more clearer venue for such antics.
It's clear to the most of the locals.  The issue is you not knowing the local culture.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 17, 2019, 03:24:04 PM

Men who go to Ukraine with less than stellar motives is what creates these "pro daters".


Disagree.  Sex tourists do not create "pro-daters."  The contrary that pro-daters create sex tourists is certainly not true.   

Pro-daters are merely women who for parental, social or genetic reasons feel no remorse about misrepresenting their intentions and fleecing gullible men. 

None justify their actions by thinking, "This man will lie to bed one of my sister citizens, so it is okay for me take advantage of him."  Instead they feel "This man is to blame for losing his money because he is so stupid."

Incidentally, I was told by one dating agency that the pro-daters and sex tourists can spot each other a mile away. 


Quote
Don't blame the women.  They are responding to market forces.   

Agree.    The motivation is economic.  The man has the money and the woman wants it, and she is willing to misrepresent her intentions to obtain it. 

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Patagonie on April 17, 2019, 03:24:10 PM

1.  A huge number of diplomas in Ukraine are purchased, with the diploma holder never having set foot in a classroom.  I know admissions is corrupt in the US, but it's at a whole different level in Ukraine.


2.  Ukraine has no rule of law. 


Those are the two biggest.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
+1
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 17, 2019, 03:40:29 PM
"Pro-daters are merely women who for parental, social or genetic reasons feel no remorse about misrepresenting their intentions and fleecing gullible men. "


you can't cheat an honest man
therefor if you don't want to be cheated how should YOU behave
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 17, 2019, 04:08:06 PM
brownbeard, I think if you are adamant on an FSUW, you should consider hiring someone who can help you prescreen for sincere women.  Stirlitz (Igor Kalinin), who posts here sometimes, is someone who can help you.  He is in Ukraine.


Eduard, who doesn't post here, will work with you until you find a wife.  He only finds women in Russia, though.  He lives in Florida, but emigrated from the USSR, and speaks Russian fluently.


This post was composed without the aid of google.


Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 17, 2019, 04:25:50 PM
BO, that actually makes sense...
so I'm sure it'll be rejected
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 17, 2019, 04:43:45 PM

you can't cheat an honest man



Heard this before.  I subscribe to "a scared man can not gamble," but I do not subscribe to your expression.
Maybe if you expanded to "man honest to himself and wise."   

What about honest (truthful) man sending money for air tix and visa, and she does not show?   

 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 17, 2019, 05:02:07 PM
if he's honest (and wise) what are his motives?
the only reason for him to please a scammer is the hope she'll please him
not because he's an altruist and likes to perform noble deeds
this is the essence of all scams that scammers play
that's why if YOU have integrity - scams just don't work
never did on me, though MANY tried (oh man did they TRY!)
because the difference between a scammer and a woman with integrity
is like the difference between night and day
and if you find it suddenly getting dark
probably time to go...

bottom line, if you're a guy and you can't tell the difference between someone who has genuine sincere feelings towards you and someone just trying to use you
then you have a much BIGGER problem than just someone trying to use you
I NEVER had a problem detecting this difference

it’s a good thing Mr Beard doesn’t have pictures to back up his claims
because if he did, I would sure look like a total idiot!!!!
and he would look like the most AMAZING SUCCESSFUL MAN EVER!
but how can he have photos of something that just doesn’t exist....
so yeah, IT'S A GOOD THING HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY PICTURES....



Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 17, 2019, 06:07:02 PM
brownbeard, I think if you are adamant on an FSUW, you should consider hiring someone who can help you prescreen for sincere women.  Stirlitz (Igor Kalinin), who posts here sometimes, is someone who can help you.  He is in Ukraine.


Eduard, who doesn't post here, will work with you until you find a wife.  He only finds women in Russia, though.  He lives in Florida, but emigrated from the USSR, and speaks Russian fluently.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Thank you. Definitely worth looking into.

I just know I don’t trust agencies. I have continued an extended conversation with the iPhone girl in an effort to understand her. She told me she works with several agencies doing PPL, translating, and as a date. She let me know they are all pretty much scams. Of course, she doesn’t feel bad about fleecing these men because “they deserve it”
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 17, 2019, 08:35:37 PM
Thank you. Definitely worth looking into.

You can reach Ed here
http://realrussianmatch.com/

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: rwd123 on April 17, 2019, 09:11:14 PM
"What are you doing in Ukraine?", the women there may ask you. The naked truth is - primarily, having sex with random women in the shortest amount of time possible! If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it is probably a duck. You walked and talked like a sex tourist. The women saw it a mile away. It should come as no surprise you attracted materialistic gold diggers and alcoholics. Welcome to Ukraine!

You may disagree with the sex tourist label but in the eyes of essentially every woman (and man) you met there you would have been marked as one. It matters not how you view yourself, but how locals view you. You weren't there to visit family, or on business, or to study, or even out of curiosity for history and Slavic culture. Therefore, in their eyes you're a sex tourist. Why else would you be in Ukraine? Just like fellow sex hound James claiming to be a tourist to immigration officials in Dnipro - laughable! Even worse, if local women knew, you'd be branded as a sex tourist looking for freebie sex. Cheap foreigner sex tourist!

Here's a small tip - Ukraine isn't really a good place to find a wife (for foreigners). That's not to say there aren't worthy potential wives, but the cost/benefit ratio isn't worth it for most guys - particularly for those with little or no language skills and interest in the culture. You'll need to get street smart super quick if you head back. I don't understand why guys interested in FSUW are so fixated on Ukraine. There are so many cities in Russia (and other countries) to meet women without the stench of sex tourism, pro-daters, etc.

I am not intending to offend but simply to be direct.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 17, 2019, 10:00:50 PM
I don't understand why guys interested in FSUW are so fixated on Ukraine. There are so many cities in Russia (and other countries) to meet women without the stench of sex tourism, pro-daters, etc.

In the current climate, many men wouldn't touch a RW or Russia itself with a 10 foot pole.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 10:33:06 PM
In the current climate, many men wouldn't touch a RW or Russia itself with a 10 foot pole.

True ML, Russian girls would be a more difficult to explain situation. After the Salisbury novichok includent here it was a bit of a situation to avoid talking about with resident Russians. Matters have eased but it certainly placed Russia back in the old Cold War 'enemy' category for a while in most of the country's mind. It's still not exactly deemed friendly territory and the UK gov no doubt still view them as an enemy.

I would find it most probably that the UK military & Civil Service would be currently banning UK born children with Russian parent, even grandparent from admittance. Reckon chances may be somewhat better if Ukrainian parent, grandparent however.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2019, 10:45:54 PM
"What are you doing in Ukraine?", the women there may ask you. The naked truth is - primarily, having sex with random women in the shortest amount of time possible! If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it is probably a duck. You walked and talked like a sex tourist. The women saw it a mile away. It should come as no surprise you attracted materialistic gold diggers and alcoholics. Welcome to Ukraine!

You may disagree with the sex tourist label but in the eyes of essentially every woman (and man) you met there you would have been marked as one. It matters not how you view yourself, but how locals view you. You weren't there to visit family, or on business, or to study, or even out of curiosity for history and Slavic culture. Therefore, in their eyes you're a sex tourist. Why else would you be in Ukraine? Just like fellow sex hound James claiming to be a tourist to immigration officials in Dnipro - laughable! Even worse, if local women knew, you'd be branded as a sex tourist looking for freebie sex. Cheap foreigner sex tourist!

Here's a small tip - Ukraine isn't really a good place to find a wife (for foreigners). That's not to say there aren't worthy potential wives, but the cost/benefit ratio isn't worth it for most guys - particularly for those with little or no language skills and interest in the culture. You'll need to get street smart super quick if you head back. I don't understand why guys interested in FSUW are so fixated on Ukraine. There are so many cities in Russia (and other countries) to meet women without the stench of sex tourism, pro-daters, etc.

I am not intending to offend but simply to be direct.

You make good points RWD, I think for many, particularly UK guys it's the easy access Ukraine offers as a visa free country. I share your view that it is both screwed over by the dating industry there but not necessarily impossible to find someone.

I mentioned once before on here the cost of visits back to other halfs home country, if that is Russia then expense and bother of getting visas can add up. For me my upcoming trip in May, may be the last to Ukraine or towards the end of them if no joy is forthcoming. I like Ukraine as a country but I've seen enough of it now that I see little need to see other parts of it unless a real need. Ukraine is an easy fly in country.

Russia on the other hand is a country I would go for a more longer term planned expidition to justify the visa time & expense, more arduous for us UK guys than US guys as we don't get the same 3yr visa deal. I think it's got more genuine prospects but in places like Moscow you're up against more wealthier local FSUM than in places like Kiev. So I'm guessing more far flung cities are probably the way to go.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: mhr7 on April 17, 2019, 11:29:27 PM
In the current climate, many men wouldn't touch a RW or Russia itself with a 10 foot pole.

This is love not politics, Russia is a perfect place to find a wife.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on April 17, 2019, 11:44:29 PM


I just know I don’t trust agencies. I have continued an extended conversation with the iPhone girl in an effort to understand her. She told me she works with several agencies doing PPL, translating, and as a date. She let me know they are all pretty much scams. Of course, she doesn’t feel bad about fleecing these men because “they deserve it”

Really --DUH!!!
You did not like it when I gave you less than 1% chance in the first place --now -- "SHE told me"  !!  Each and EVERY part of that I have written about at least 100 times --plus literally 1000's of others in posts .

There is  a paradox I  want to raise here ---  the constant advice here is to get in direct communication asap --which is good in itself -- BUT -- the likely result is exactly what happened here.
From her perspective --- her only interest is to set up the next mark  --and use the natural assets she has.hence she has no real interest in protracted  online contact either.

A  long time ago-- an agency owner explained it to me in this basic way -- no one is holding a gun at a guys head to part with his money -he does it voluntarily  --  hard to argue with that logic !!! 

Attempting to apply western values and question legality and call a scam etc is just missing the point ( Krimster said it up thread somewhere )  --recognise the field and game you are attempting to play on. 


 

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: LAman on April 17, 2019, 11:53:08 PM
In the current climate, many men wouldn't touch a RW or Russia itself with a 10 foot pole.


I do....... and my pole is only 9 foot!!!

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on April 18, 2019, 12:01:23 AM
"What are you doing in Ukraine?", the women there may ask you. The naked truth is - primarily, having sex with random women in the shortest amount of time possible! If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it is probably a duck. You walked and talked like a sex tourist. The women saw it a mile away. It should come as no surprise you attracted materialistic gold diggers and alcoholics. Welcome to Ukraine!

You may disagree with the sex tourist label but in the eyes of essentially every woman (and man) you met there you would have been marked as one. It matters not how you view yourself, but how locals view you. You weren't there to visit family, or on business, or to study, or even out of curiosity for history and Slavic culture. Therefore, in their eyes you're a sex tourist. Why else would you be in Ukraine? Just like fellow sex hound James claiming to be a tourist to immigration officials in Dnipro - laughable! Even worse, if local women knew, you'd be branded as a sex tourist looking for freebie sex. Cheap foreigner sex tourist!

Here's a small tip - Ukraine isn't really a good place to find a wife (for foreigners). That's not to say there aren't worthy potential wives, but the cost/benefit ratio isn't worth it for most guys - particularly for those with little or no language skills and interest in the culture. You'll need to get street smart super quick if you head back. I don't understand why guys interested in FSUW are so fixated on Ukraine. There are so many cities in Russia (and other countries) to meet women without the stench of sex tourism, pro-daters, etc.

I am not intending to offend but simply to be direct.

Not disagreeing 100% with your comments --but --it is wrong to attempt to tar the whole population of Ukraine with the one brush.  It is far to easy  to focus on the negatives of Ukraine  -- and  the fact that some of the issues you raise are negatives --but to some --they are positives and the reason some go there in the first place. eg  The idiot Trenchcoat thinks he can get a girl on the cheap because of the obnoxious rambling of Roosh and others of his ilk that have promoted that.

A  forum poster who is particularly'"know it all" obnoxious poster tried to tell a poster here that his wife was no better than a prostitute -- or was one --because she did the web site thing.It shows a total lack of understanding of how  that happened in the past ( & still does) -- girls are often "victims " too - and being exploited.
In the case of BB above -- this is the more advanced stage  -- and probably the result of a decade or more of involvement at the different levels of the "industry"
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: rwd123 on April 18, 2019, 01:42:12 AM
it is wrong to attempt to tar the whole population of Ukraine with the one brush.
When did I tar ALL of Ukraine? There are particular dating potholes that are peculiar or possibly even unique to Ukraine (based both on what I have read and my personal experiences in multiple FSU countries/regions).

The point I was making is that it seems the majority of men pursuing foreign wives on this board end up in Ukraine. There are many cities in other FSU countries with large (Slavic) populations where dating will be "easier" - though not necessarily "easy".

http://sashat.me/2017/04/21/what-happened-to-soviet-cities

There are plenty of interesting places on that list that are not flooded with sex tourists, pro-daters, marriage agencies, etc.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 18, 2019, 03:55:56 AM
In the current climate, many men wouldn't touch a RW or Russia itself with a 10 foot pole.

GREAT ..

That leaves more choice for those wise enough to realise it doesn't matter who one votes for ( if at all - so many gave up )  - the incumbent will 'win'

Come on, ML ... you're smarter than this
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 18, 2019, 07:15:20 AM
In the current climate, many men wouldn't touch a RW or Russia itself with a 10 foot pole.

 :ROFL:

As far as I know my RW wife is not an agent of Putin.  Unlike 10 years ago, she is disappointed in Putin. 
She loves her mother country's culture, yet would never move back to Russia.   

More men go to Ukraine because RW in general have a better economy and are less interested in the concept of marrying a foreigner and leaving Russia.   I found it difficult to convince my wife to move because she was for the most part happy with her life.  I assert such is exactly the type of woman a man should romance, whether from Ukraine or Russia.

Also, are tourist visas not easier for Ukraine?   
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 18, 2019, 07:22:58 AM
if you're a western guy and you can't succeed in Ukraine
then the problem is not in your stars
or even in Ukraine
the problem is within YOU
with all of the advantages you have in Ukraine
and you still can’t succeed?
why?

Gator
no visa for Ukraine
I received a 3 yr multi-entry visa last year for Russia, I think it was about $300, can't recall the exact price
for some the required disclosure of their "background" on their Russian visa application might be a problem!!!

clues for the clueless

let's say you're an "average" looking 40 yr old urban professional in the USA with a $100,000/yr income
how will you be perceived in Ukraine?
multiply that income by 10
take 10 yr off your age
and add 2 points to your appearance

so suddenly you become a 30 yr old hot looking successful "millionaire"
and you're in Ukraine.....

and you still FAIL?
WACK! that was the sound of my hand hitting my forehead!!!

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 18, 2019, 08:12:58 AM
if you're a western guy and you can't succeed in Ukraine
then the problem is not in your stars
or even in Ukraine
the problem is within YOU
with all of the advantages you have in Ukraine
and you still can’t succeed?
why?

Gator
no visa for Ukraine
I received a 3 yr multi-entry visa last year for Russia, I think it was about $300, can't recall the exact price
for some the required disclosure of their "background" on their Russian visa application might be a problem!!!

clues for the clueless

let's say you're an "average" looking 40 yr old urban professional in the USA with a $100,000/yr income
how will you be perceived in Ukraine?
multiply that income by 10
take 10 yr off your age
and add 2 points to your appearance

so suddenly you become a 30 yr old hot looking successful "millionaire"
and you're in Ukraine.....

and you still FAIL?
WACK! that was the sound of my hand hitting my forehead!!!

First scenario I would imagine you would be like an Oligarch. Second scenario I imagine you would hold god like status :D
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 18, 2019, 08:25:29 AM
a bit of hyperbole, but you get the idea...

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 18, 2019, 08:34:33 AM
:ROFL:

As far as I know my RW wife is not an agent of Putin.  Unlike 10 years ago, she is disappointed in Putin. 
She loves her mother country's culture, yet would never move back to Russia.   

More men go to Ukraine because RW in general have a better economy and are less interested in the concept of marrying a foreigner and leaving Russia.   I found it difficult to convince my wife to move because she was for the most part happy with her life.  I assert such is exactly the type of woman a man should romance, whether from Ukraine or Russia.

Also, are tourist visas not easier for Ukraine?

Second Kiev girl I met (Kherson girl) had an interesting situation as far as she told me, I wouldn't be able to back this up since I never visited her home city. She worked in a retail job, had a degree for whatever that is worth/not worth. She lived in a typical Soviet era concrete block, shared a flat with her sibling and sibling's other half and a young kid, she showed me pictures of them. She didn't get on with her sibling's other half at all well. So sharing a two room flat with them all. Situation wasn't of course at all great yet she wouldn't back down on her visa demands of me. I'm guessing she was perhaps in the way a bit as the sibling probably wanted another child/more room.

I've no doubt that many a Ukrainian girl is in similar not too great living situation. My preference in some regards would be to buy a half decent place and live out there, somewhere nice like Odessa and be in a proper live in situation with a girl. Circumstances at the moment mean that is not possible but I can imagine for many a Ukrainian girl a scenario would be a good few steps up on their dreary living situations.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 18, 2019, 08:54:28 AM
whether we like it or not, we’re all given an “attractiveness quotient”
let’s call it “AQ”
your AQ is the sum of many factors besides physical attractiveness

if your AQ is low, find a way to raise it - like “working out"
or find a way to raise your “perceived” AQ
don’t put yourself in a situation where your budget restrictions make you look cheap (and poor)
avoid those situations

for example, “back in the day” I met a really nice woman from St Pete’s on a beach near Odessa and spent half the day with her
didn’t spend a kopec

About Sex Tourists (some advice)

When I was living in Ukraine, I used to spot “these guys”
middle-aged foreign men
EVERYONE knows why they’re there
here’s an interesting observation about “them”
they all dress exactly the same
so...........
if you don’t want to be identified as a sex tourist (and become a "mark" for scammers)
don’t dress like one
and this will also raise your AQ quite a bit
dress like a "professional" and people will think you're in Ukraine on "bizness" and not for "you know what"

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Maxx2 on April 18, 2019, 10:04:11 AM
whether we like it or not, we’re all given an “attractiveness quotient”
let’s call it “AQ”
your AQ is the sum of many factors besides physical attractiveness

if your AQ is low, find a way to raise it - like “working out"
or find a way to raise your “perceived” AQ
don’t put yourself in a situation where your budget restrictions make you look cheap (and poor)
avoid those situations

for example, “back in the day” I met a really nice woman from St Pete’s on a beach near Odessa and spent half the day with her
didn’t spend a kopec

About Sex Tourists (some advice)

When I was living in Ukraine, I used to spot “these guys”
middle-aged foreign men
EVERYONE knows why they’re there
here’s an interesting observation about “them”
they all dress exactly the same
so...........
if you don’t want to be identified as a sex tourist (and become a "mark" for scammers)
don’t dress like one

and this will also raise your AQ quite a bit
dress like a "professional" and people will think you're in Ukraine on "bizness" and not for "you know what"


So what is that?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Patagonie on April 18, 2019, 10:06:59 AM
Second Kiev girl I met (Kherson girl) had an interesting situation as far as she told me, I wouldn't be able to back this up since I never visited her home city. She worked in a retail job, had a degree for whatever that is worth/not worth. She lived in a typical Soviet era concrete block, shared a flat with her sibling and sibling's other half and a young kid, she showed me pictures of them. She didn't get on with her sibling's other half at all well. So sharing a two room flat with them all. Situation wasn't of course at all great yet she wouldn't back down on her visa demands of me. I'm guessing she was perhaps in the way a bit as the sibling probably wanted another child/more room.

I've no doubt that many a Ukrainian girl is in similar not too great living situation. My preference in some regards would be to buy a half decent place and live out there, somewhere nice like Odessa and be in a proper live in situation with a girl. Circumstances at the moment mean that is not possible but I can imagine for many a Ukrainian girl a scenario would be a good few steps up on their dreary living situations.
There are two categories TR of people : the ones who can afford and the ones who cannot. As a matter of fact when this girl tells you that she has an interesting situation it means that not. Degree are very common in FSU among women.
Don't understand this story of visa, what you mean.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 18, 2019, 10:22:40 AM
"So what is that?"

http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/pcu2.jpg

kinda...
just look nicer...
otherwise foreigner + shabbily dressed = sex tourist
foreigner + nicely dressed = biznessman
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 18, 2019, 10:36:14 AM
More men go to Ukraine because RW in general have a better economy and are less interested in the concept of marrying a foreigner and leaving Russia.   I found it difficult to convince my wife to move because she was for the most part happy with her life.  I assert such is exactly the type of woman a man should romance, whether from Ukraine or Russia.

Also, are tourist visas not easier for Ukraine?


Unlike in Ukraine, the Russian government took a lot of actions to close down the "MOB" industry.  There was also a lot of press on how there "is no place for Russians in the West".


I think the reason more men go to Ukraine is because of the lack of visas.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: lyndontom on April 18, 2019, 10:45:12 AM
I mentioned once before on here the cost of visits back to other halfs home country, if that is Russia then expense and bother of getting visas can add up. For me my upcoming trip in May, may be the last to Ukraine or towards the end of them if no joy is forthcoming. I like Ukraine as a country but I've seen enough of it now that I see little need to see other parts of it unless a real need. Ukraine is an easy fly in country.


So, in your serious pursuit of a wife, the £100 visa fee is going to be a serious obstacle? You're going to live in notorious Odessa instead? Hmmm...if you think £100 in the grand scheme of this is expensive you need a reality check.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: lyndontom on April 18, 2019, 10:45:57 AM
In the current climate, many men wouldn't touch a RW or Russia itself with a 10 foot pole.


Yet there is only you that seems to be scared on this forum?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 18, 2019, 12:08:35 PM

So, in your serious pursuit of a wife, the £100 visa fee is going to be a serious obstacle?

Dewd,

Trenchie prefers women who only drink tap water on dates because he doesn't
want a spoiled woman. He is looking for a woman who nicks the toilet paper
from the ladies room at the restaurant and brings it back to his apartment to
help him save a quid because you know it adds up. 

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 18, 2019, 12:10:01 PM
In the current climate, many men wouldn't touch a RW or Russia itself with a 10 foot pole.

It's only you.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 18, 2019, 12:31:30 PM

Yet there is only you that seems to be scared on this forum?


He isn't scared. 


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 18, 2019, 12:57:17 PM
You can reach Ed here


Igor can be reached here -


http://www.odessaguide.net/


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 18, 2019, 01:13:11 PM
BTW, a couple of years from now Odessa will be part of the Russian Federation
and...
The WAR is going to change EVERYTHING
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 18, 2019, 01:50:41 PM
BTW, a couple of years from now Odessa will be part of the Russian Federation
and...
The WAR is going to change EVERYTHING

All good for this May though I hope :-\

Guess that's the problem with Ukraine at the he moment, investment may not be that secure.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: lyndontom on April 19, 2019, 02:49:31 AM

He isn't scared. 


This post was composed without the aid of google.


Maybe not, because he's no longer in the same situation as the men here on the board searching. But he is certainly scaremongering.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Maxx2 on April 19, 2019, 05:19:25 AM
"So what is that?"

http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/pcu2.jpg (http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/pcu2.jpg)

kinda...
just look nicer...
otherwise foreigner + shabbily dressed = sex tourist
foreigner + nicely dressed = biznessman


Got it. I thought maybe it was tight pants, wrap around sun glasses and wearing a lot of bling.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 19, 2019, 05:54:50 AM

So, in your serious pursuit of a wife, the £100 visa fee is going to be a serious obstacle? You're going to live in notorious Odessa instead? Hmmm...if you think £100 in the grand scheme of this is expensive you need a reality check.

£100 ? a one off Tourist visa would be Trench's style..  A yeats's biz visa ( max for a UK citizen ) costs a LOT more - including the invitation - defo keeps Russia Trench-free ;)

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: tfcrew on April 19, 2019, 06:52:21 AM
  You're going to live in notorious Odessa instead?
Can you elaborate on that?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 19, 2019, 10:12:34 AM
Odessa has a certain historical "notoriety" for criminality
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 19, 2019, 12:09:45 PM

Unlike in Ukraine, the Russian government took a lot of actions to close down the
"MOB" industry.  There was also a lot of press on how there "is no place for Russians
in the West".


I think the reason more men go to Ukraine is because of the lack of visas.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

What you and Gator said are not mutually exclusive because everything
both of you posted is true. I tend to agree that the number one reason
for Americans is Visa's but for Aussies and Kiwi's they need one in either
case.

Russia did put a damper on the MOB industry and the economy is significantly
better in Russia than in Ukraine. The anti West propaganda has had it's effects
as well.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 19, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
Beel,

I have been in Russia more recently and I believe you are mistaken re RW attidute to moving overseas

I think there is heightened interest in western partners in Russia...

The reason? Well you would have to ask the
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 19, 2019, 12:38:50 PM
Russia and Ukraine have a completely different “vibe”
it’s like the difference between Weimar and Nazi Germany
the stuff you can get away with in Kyiv is amazing
in Moscow you can get busted for Jay Walking in an empty street

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 19, 2019, 01:00:00 PM

Maybe not, because he's no longer in the same situation as the men here on the board searching. But he is certainly scaremongering.


No, he isn't.  His point has always been that the inhabitants of a country who support their country's illegal invasion of another country are morally bankrupt.  That is not scaremongering.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 19, 2019, 01:19:36 PM
So, what about places like L’viv? Is that a little further away from the whole sex tourism/professional dating mess?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 19, 2019, 01:22:12 PM
Relatively few women in Western Ukraine are interested in dating foreign men.  Far, far, fewer than in Central/Eastern Ukraine.  That's because most of them have relatives in the West, and many work in Western countries. 


I'm not suggesting it's impossible, but you won't find the numbers you do in, say, Kyiv.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 19, 2019, 01:45:29 PM
HUGE measles epidemic in Western Ukraine now centering in Ternopil
check you vaccination before you go - if you were vaccinated as a kid you might want a refresher - google it

If I were to pick a location...
Dnepr, Chernigov/Nezhin, Kharkhiv, would be at the top
plus all the little satellites that orbit these cities

if you really get desperate, try Moldova!!!






Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Nightwish on April 19, 2019, 01:51:52 PM

No, he isn't.  His point has always been that the inhabitants of a country who support their country's illegal invasion of another country are morally bankrupt. That is not scaremongering.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
well.. selectively in that case , I never seen him criticize Americans.

 :popcorn:

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 19, 2019, 01:53:18 PM
Relatively few women in Western Ukraine are interested in dating foreign men.  Far, far, fewer than in Central/Eastern Ukraine.  That's because most of them have relatives in the West, and many work in Western countries. 


I'm not suggesting it's impossible, but you won't find the numbers you do in, say, Kyiv.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

I understand what you are saying, but I would only go there if I met someone online that I wanted to visit... we have beat the WOVO vs. WMVM debate to death on another one of my threads, but I would probably only go if I felt really good about a WOVO prospect.

I realize I wasn’t meeting the right women on my last trip to Kiev because I didn’t properly screen dates... it was a WOVO visit that turned into a visit many after the first one didnt work out.  I have met two girls on fdating (those were two WOVO trips) and can say they were genuine girls...  not professionals or looking to scam men or to accommodate sex tourists. There were other issues, so it didn’t work out.  The other “not so great” girls I met in country through sites like Ukrainedate and Tinder.... not a big surprise that a Tinder girl isn’t marriage material... but I chose to go out with who was available instead of just staying home alone in my apartment.

That said, It doesn’t matter if most Lviv girls aren’t interested in wester men... I just need one. It is nice to know that if it doesn’t work out, I may have a lonely time in the city.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 19, 2019, 01:56:55 PM
well.. selectively in that case , I never seen him criticize Americans.

 :popcorn:


He's not suggesting men seek out American brides.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Nightwish on April 19, 2019, 01:58:40 PM

He's not suggesting men seek out American brides.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

 ::) I think you need to revisit my post and what I commented on because that answer made no sense whatsoever. 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 19, 2019, 02:12:08 PM

No, he isn't.  His point has always been that the inhabitants of a country who support their country's illegal invasion of another country are morally bankrupt.  That is not scaremongering.




Exactly correct.  I and many other thinking men would not want to be involved with such persons.

Here in my area, there has been a general movement toward excluding Russians from social groups, except for those who openly and aggressively speak out against the Russian actions coming from the motherland.

Recently, a hiring decision went against a highly qualified ethnic Russian for the same reason (although never stated, of course).  In a general luncheon discussion, he voiced total support for Putin's actions in Ukraine.

For an example, look back at historical treatment of recent German immigrants during WWI and WWII.
And it doesn't have to be an actual war or even a declared war.

Not even to mention ethnic Japanese.

Most thinking men/men would not want to put them and children through this.

http://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=214
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 19, 2019, 02:15:33 PM
::) I think you need to revisit my post and what I commented on because that answer made no sense whatsoever.


No, I got what you posted.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 19, 2019, 02:47:56 PM
I'd go with the "I'm not German, I'm Swiss!" defense

my oldest totally rocks the Russian thing, wears Russian T-Shirts
my favorite of hers is the one with Gagarin saying in Russian "I see no God"
on victory day she'll wear her G-Grandfather's Hero of the Soviet Union medal to school
when we lived in Sevastopol, I dressed my daughters as little partisans and they marched in the victory day parade
good times...
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 19, 2019, 02:52:05 PM
Beel,

I have been in Russia more recently and I believe you are mistaken re RW attidute to moving overseas

I think there is heightened interest in western partners in Russia...


What was the percentage of MOB women in Russia during the hay day
of Yeltsin? It was never more than a few percent. Most RW/FSUW have
always wanted to stay in Russia/their own country. They did during the
hay days of Yeltsin and they still do now.

Your anecdotal experience is insignificant.

HOWEVER, I think you misunderstood the context of my comments.
My comments were about the guys. Why do they go to Ukraine more
than they go to other places like Russia. If you read my comments in
that light I think you would tend to agree that both Gator and Boe's
comments are not mutually exclusive. 

[Edit to add] 
attidute: The effect of good whiskey on your opinion of the dude 
buying it for you. 

attitoot: The effect of good whiskey on how much gas you pass the
next day.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 19, 2019, 04:25:05 PM
Russia and Ukraine have a completely different “vibe”
it’s like the difference between Weimar and Nazi Germany
the stuff you can get away with in Kyiv is amazing
in Moscow you can get busted for Jay Walking in an empty street

Yeah I noticed I different vibe when I visited Moscow straight after Kiev. Moscow had a far more control vibe, Kiev more of an archaic vibe.

I looked at the areas you mentioned Krim quite recently in your other post. They seemed good places to check out so may do when I can get more time on my hands. Looked also at Moldova, the women there all seem to have a Romanian/Gypsy look. For me it's not really the look I dig, I'm far more attracted to the Slavic girl look.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 19, 2019, 04:47:04 PM
definitely a different vibe....

yeah, I know what you're saying about the Moldovan look, but that's what I "dig on"
but like Ukraine, Moldova has diversity so I've met nordic blondes there as well
all the Moldovan women I met were very sincere and very easy going
and really happy to spend time with a Western guy
and I did see some REALLY beautiful women there
just not as many as Ukraine
it'd be even easier meeting women there and the conditions that make Ukraine such a great spot makes Moldova an even greater one
almost no WM go there
Odessa to kishiniv is maybe 150 miles
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 19, 2019, 05:01:18 PM
So, what about places like L’viv? Is that a little further away from the whole sex tourism/professional dating mess?

Think less sex tourism more tourism with a capital T. In the last decade Lviv has been turned into a tourist Mecca, many lovely themed restaurants and tourist attractions to visit. It's a lovely place around the medieval old town, and the women are stunning who strut around there, pretty and real tarted up. Problem is that the place after a few days or so starts to feel what it has become - a massive tourist trap and the charm of the place wears if as the standard phony tourist scene becomes all to apparent. Unfortunately even a lot of the medieval facades are now being done up to perfection and the flaky old style charm of the place is in the process of being lost. On the outskirts of the old town more of the more authentic looking flaky old medieval facades can be seen.

Women, well you can bring them up for meets of the usual sites like fdate, I did with a couple. They can have a different outlook to other girls more in the Ukrainian heartland, Lviv city centre at least has a western European city feel, standard tower blocks on the outskirts though. The tourist industry is dominated heavily by Ukrainian tourists but after a little while you'll see that it caters on a modest scale to foreign tourists mostly German and English. Not many German or English go there compared to Ukraians though which of course is good in a way.

So no there are not the dating industry problems as such, but even still Ukrainian girls are Ukrainian girls even in Lviv. Much the same dating rules and expectations and mechanics apply. They seem to look up to western culture out that way, wear some well known western fashion brands and you'll get noticed. I would say Lviv women are more in touch with western culture than in other parts of Ukraine.

I wouldn't on the whole say it is any less scan free though so be cautious of all Ukrainians there, it's the same culture/society at the end of the day.

One issue with Lviv is that despite it being a lovely place to be, even if alone it is not a big city so while you won't likely suffer nearly as many pro daters percentage wise your immediate pool of women is limited online. So you would really need some idea of how to access more women plus as it's a nice area less women may be willing to move. A girl I met there told me the creation of a Tourist industry there has provided a lot of work and turned the place around. Street pickup is not easy there I would say as the layout of the place doesn't seem to lend itself easily to that. Some guys still do it but I don't think it's the easiest place for a foreigner to do it as far less people speak English there than in say Kiev, if anything they seem to speak German more, hope this helps.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 19, 2019, 05:04:46 PM
£100 ? a one off Tourist visa would be Trench's style..  A yeats's biz visa ( max for a UK citizen ) costs a LOT more - including the invitation - defo keeps Russia Trench-free ;)

:( Mobes is right, us UK guys pay through the ear for Russian visas. Would love to be able to get the three year ones US etc guys get, then I would definitely go to Russia.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 19, 2019, 05:19:15 PM
Lviv's city centre looks much like it did in Soviet times, though painted now.


As for culture, no, Western Ukrainian culture is a little different from Central Ukraine, and there are historical reasons for that.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 19, 2019, 05:31:21 PM
I'd go with the "I'm not German, I'm Swiss!" defense

my oldest totally rocks the Russian thing, wears Russian T-Shirts
my favorite of hers is the one with Gagarin saying in Russian "I see no God"
on victory day she'll wear her G-Grandfather's Hero of the Soviet Union medal to school
when we lived in Sevastopol, I dressed my daughters as little partisans and they marched in the victory day parade
good times...

I love Russian culture and history, I think having a shared history/heritage is a great when it's with such an intriguing culture.

Other cultures though I find less so, so for me it makes sense searching for a girl from a culture I appreciate.

Looked online at Molavdian girls but thought those with blonde hair dyed it that way. The girls all seemed tanned and of dark complexion.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Grumpy on April 19, 2019, 06:48:52 PM
:( Mobes is right, us UK guys pay through the ear for Russian visas. Would love to be able to get the three year ones US etc guys get, then I would definitely go to Russia.

Perhaps you would also love the airfares from the US to Russia?   ;D
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: LAman on April 19, 2019, 07:38:48 PM
Perhaps you would also love the airfares from the US to Russia?   ;D

I don't know, last couple trips to Moscow under $600. Which included 2 meals, liquor and some good movies...… since they put in in-seat screens, time seems to fly by.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: tfcrew on April 19, 2019, 07:44:25 PM
Odessa has a certain historical "notoriety" for criminality
After trying to locate criminal history/activity in Ukraine I failed to find the city of Odessa even mentioned from the onset....  http://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=24286
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Ukraine
Specifically http://www.numbeo.com/crime/in/Odesa....
  Crime Index: 53.40 Safety Index: 46.60 There is a moderate concern of "being insulted"
Violent crimes such as assault and armed robbery =39.79 Low
 Compare to Kherson...
assault and armed robbery=27.08 low
Where does the bad rap for Odessa come from?
Odessa is a port city and typically, port cities do have disproportionate transient derelict/vagabonds.
 I do know that the heat there can be somewhat unforgiving of delinquency.
  Who here has been to Odessa and has had a criminal mess with them?
   

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 19, 2019, 09:30:36 PM
i've been to O-des-sa many, many times
my paternal grandfather was born there and lived in Moldavanka


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Odessa

from wikipedia

Cultural image of Odessa

To a significant extent the image of Odessa in Russophone culture is influenced by The Odessa Tales of Isaak Babel. Odessa is often referred to by the collocation "Odessa Mama" (Mom Odessa), a term that originated in Russian criminal (blatnoy) subculture. The reputation of the city as a criminal center originated in Imperial Russian times and the early Soviet era, and is similar to the reputation of Al Capone era Chicago.

I am a descendant on my father's side of Jewish mobsters from Odessa who moved to Philadelphia and little Odessa and setup shop there
it's why Russian was not allowed to be spoken in my home when I was a child, even though my older relatives were quite fluent in it
if my mother wasn’t a shiksa I’d be in Solntsevskaya Bratva probably banking







Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on April 19, 2019, 09:38:05 PM

  Who here has been to Odessa and has had a criminal mess with them?


That is not the point . . . and criminals (other than petty thieves) generally don't mess around with tourists.

But, there was the man whose gal set him up to be attacked by her criminal friends who severely beat him and stole his money and other items.
I forget the details, but it was widely reported and discussed here and in other media.

The more relevant point is that the people there (and the gals which are of importance to guys here) have a criminal mindset or are accepting a criminal mindset as normal.

The above probably due to the port city status which is ripe for all sorts of crime mostly related to shipments in and out.  Ordinary gals probably were mostly involved in fleecing the sailors and this practice became more general to all sorts of visiting guys.

I know that from my visits to probably around 25 or more FSU cities (mostly for business) that there was definitely more of a shady character action from the business people and non-business women that I interacted with.

In fact, it is the only city in FSU that I recommend totally avoiding.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 20, 2019, 04:09:58 AM
What was the percentage of MOB women in Russia during the hay day
of Yeltsin? It was never more than a few percent. Most RW/FSUW have
always wanted to stay in Russia/their own country. They did during the
hay days of Yeltsin and they still do now.


I have no idea of the percentage, but I most certainly disagree with your assertion - ass if they were on international dating sites - that was hinting they would consider leaving the Rondina for Mr Right ...;)


Your anecdotal experience is insignificant.

Over the two times I was on the scene, I corresponded with  / met ladies from all over UA / RU and even tried mamba.ru - when it was worth a punt for a WM who could correspond in 'Russian'.. My 'insignificant' experiences were with international and local ( to UA/ RU ) dating sites and includes present day RU ladies who still seek a WM


HOWEVER, I think you misunderstood the context of my comments.
My comments were about the guys. Why do they go to Ukraine more
than they go to other places like Russia. If you read my comments in
that light I think you would tend to agree that both Gator and Boe's
comments are not mutually exclusive. 

[Edit to add] 
attidute: The effect of good whiskey on your opinion of the dude 
buying it for you. 

attitoot: The effect of good whiskey on how much gas you pass the
next day.

I DID misconstrue your point ...   but sadly no Whiskey was consumed ..  SC was winding me up ( all day) sending me images with Yulia ( v.late thirties with a daughter - and looking for a 'nice man' ) and Irina with 'artistic poses'


(http://i.imgur.com/dAywiOAl.jpg)

( PS Yulia speaks English to a better std than many 'late 30's RW)
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 20, 2019, 05:26:03 AM
I assume by 'nice man' she means a rich guy, lol
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on April 20, 2019, 05:36:25 AM
I assume by 'nice man' she means a rich guy, lol

Someone who does not have misogynistic traits ? 

Trust you to think it is all about dosh .. :wallbash:

Yulia is a nice girl and we both like her - a lot - so you - of all people - do not stand a chance, matey ....

You stick to your pig in a poke Kyiv Park exploits
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: GenMish on April 20, 2019, 05:45:57 AM
I don't know, last couple trips to Moscow under $600. Which included 2 meals, liquor and some good movies...… since they put in in-seat screens, time seems to fly by.

I was paying $600pp to Moscow 25 years ago, then around $125 foreigner price, $40 Russian citizen price inside Russia. Later $800 when Lufthansa started their one stops to Yekaterinburg via Munich. For $200 I got to remove a stop, remove 5 hours travel time,  and avoid flying in a Tupolev
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 20, 2019, 06:13:58 AM
Someone who does not have misogynistic traits ? 

Trust you to think it is all about dosh .. :wallbash:

Yulia is a nice girl and we both like her - a lot - so you - of all people - do not stand a chance, matey ....

You stick to your pig in a poke Kyiv Park exploits

I don't know sounds like a Leave voting dude would fit in well with you all ;D
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 20, 2019, 08:07:01 AM
I assume by 'nice man' she means a rich guy, lol

There is a huge difference between rich guy and near poverty guy.
I have a 28 year old son. I don't know of a single one of his friends
who doesn't make double what you do. None of them are rich guys
(yet).

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 20, 2019, 08:12:49 AM
So, what about places like L’viv? Is that a little further away from the whole sex tourism/professional dating mess?

I think you can find a good girl most anywhere in the FSU. I would tend to
stay away from the MOB industry hot beds, and L'viv qualifies as not being
thick with the MOB industry.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 20, 2019, 08:16:36 AM
sending me images with Yulia ( v.late thirties with a daughter - and looking for a 'nice man' ) and Irina with 'artistic poses'

( PS Yulia speaks English to a better std than many 'late 30's RW)

Yulia is very cute.

Udachi!

Bill
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on April 20, 2019, 08:19:16 AM
Perhaps you would also love the airfares from the US to Russia?   ;D

Trench makes less than $19K per year. He needs to get a real
job before bothering anymore woman in the FSU.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 20, 2019, 09:34:16 AM
Trench makes less than $19K per year. He needs to get a real
job before bothering anymore woman in the FSU.

With a pay rise that has just come through I make £16.5k a year now which is approx $21.5k. That's at a historically low exchange rate of around $1.30 ish to the pound if we took the medium of around $1.60 to the pound as in more usual times it would be a lot more in dollars. I've always tended to get the impression that it tends to be easier for US workers to get paid more than UK workers. There are bigger economies of scale in the US owing to bring the larger size of the country and the far larger companies that work within it.

Take Walmart of instance, they dominate in the US, but when they bought out ASDA about twenty years back now they failed to dominate in the UK market in the same way since it's far harder for companies to have as big a consumer base in the UK owing to out small size.

I think in the case of Yuliya here, yeah she seems a pretty girl and nice & sweet. Still with a child, beggars can't be choosers as the saying goes. There are many attractive looking girls in the FSU, problem Yuliya will have is getting a WM to coming and choose her.

Main thing is too many FSW I get the impression have too much of an unrealistic expectation of what they can get. Most think they will be getting millionaires but if they toned down their expectations they could end up in a better place with someone rather than with no one at all.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: brownbeard99 on April 20, 2019, 09:58:33 PM
There is another category of girl we haven’t discussed in this thread, and that’s the ones who ask for money before you even meet.  I have had a several, usually from Donetsk, who ask for me to send money within the first 10 messages.  I usually block them and move on.

I met a girl who I believe has a better long term  strategy...  I have been chatting with her for a few months, including video and phone calls.  She has sent me several pictures from around the world, including several pictures taken in the US.  She claims to have visited over 50 countries  because she has a relative who works for a major airline and she can get free tickets.

Instead of me coming to see her, she said she would come fly to see me. She said she had enough frequent flyer miles accrued to come to Chicago for free.  She never talked about specific dates until today. She previously had a tourist visa to the US, but it expired. She said she needs to apply for a new visa, but needs $300 to apply for the new visa.

For some reason, I feel like if I send her $300, I will never see her (or my money) again.  It’s a real bummer because I was reallly staring to like her...
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: BillyB on April 21, 2019, 12:33:45 AM
I have had a several, usually from Donetsk, who ask for me to send money within the first 10 messages. 


The quick scam

I met a girl who I believe has a better long term  strategy...  I have been chatting with her for a few months,...………….. She said she needs to apply for a new visa, but needs $300 to apply for the new visa.


The long scam or she may arrive if she's a pro dater. Photos of her travelling the world may be legit since she's open to flying anywhere with anybody.

She said she needs to apply for a new visa, but needs $300 to apply for the new visa.


Costs her $160 to apply for a tourist visa to America. She can't scam smart men. Easy to verify things with Google.

http://www.ustraveldocs.com/no/no-niv-visafeeinfo.asp
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: sunandsail on April 22, 2019, 02:30:36 AM
So this chump asks a group of chumps how to deal with scammers.
What could go wrong?
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: AnonMod on April 22, 2019, 01:55:05 PM
Off topic posts have been split to this thread -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22008.0
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 22, 2019, 02:24:08 PM
Off topic posts have been split to this thread -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22008.0

Trench has prompted 103 pages of off-topic posts!  OMG!   

OK, whisk me words away. 
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 22, 2019, 02:48:13 PM
if you took away Trench, this web site would be a couple of old white men talkin trash 'bout liberals and the best way to yell at people to get off their lawn
thrilling topics
I think Trench was sent by God to make RWD Great Again!!!
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 22, 2019, 05:33:12 PM
if you took away Trench, this web site would be a couple of old white men talkin trash 'bout liberals and the best way to yell at people to get off their lawn
thrilling topics
I think Trench was sent by God to make RWD Great Again!!!

You have a manner that somehow makes me smile. 

Sometimes I even laugh. 

And this time I  :ROFL:
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 22, 2019, 05:46:02 PM
well the LORD works in mysterious ways
VERY mysterious

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on April 22, 2019, 10:39:11 PM
Read the first page not the rest will do later.  So matcho man you spout on here how much you earn and you date a girl who could be a Victoria secret model in Ukraine and jibe at a few dollars on fuel and cat food when you could have paid a lot more for a meal out with a big usa mama.  She s trying to see if you are worth dating and could be a provider for her and her kids.  These women have a feminine out look.  Your choice be a man and date a woman or go 50 50 with a femi Nazi.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on April 22, 2019, 10:49:43 PM
As to your wheel chair scenario that's a man's brain thinking the way I used to think before divorce.  Transactional  is how a woman's brain works.  You have even proven that in your first marriage as have I.  Women are hardwired this way from evolution.  Only way to have the relationship you seek is go gay or marry your mother  that's the only way your wife will look after you in a wheel chair.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on April 22, 2019, 11:00:18 PM
When it comes to Ukrainian women head east or north or south .  Western ukranains are less feminine and less genetically mixed.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 23, 2019, 10:45:14 AM

Transactional  is how a woman's brain works.

It may be the way the women you seek think.  It isn't how most women think.

Signed,

A woman.
When it comes to Ukrainian women head east or north or south .  Western ukranains are less feminine and less genetically mixed.

Ukrainians nationwide share about 89% of the same haplogroups, and most of that genetic material is also shared with Russians.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 23, 2019, 02:51:08 PM
Read the first page not the rest will do later.  So matcho man you spout on here how much you earn and you date a girl who could be a Victoria secret model in Ukraine and jibe at a few dollars on fuel and cat food when you could have paid a lot more for a meal out with a big usa mama.  She s trying to see if you are worth dating and could be a provider for her and her kids.  These women have a feminine out look.  Your choice be a man and date a woman or go 50 50 with a femi Nazi.

Good to see you back James :)

Well the first part I agree with, you get wealthy guys on hear not realise that there wealth is doing a lot for them. Hot girls hang out with them who normally wouldn't give them the time of day. I agree with you I think the cat food girl is transactional in mindset. Maybe in that way she doesn't introduce BB to family or friends because it's a business transaction and not a real personal relationship. Maybe that is seen as allowable under good girl rules as it's a transaction and not a scam even if she did not explain it directly. At the moment though BB is just enjoying her company (I assume) rather than sex with her.

I get the impression that UW will push for the for the biggest transaction they can get away with over time. They won't judge what is fair, just what is the likelihood of them getting it. They will leave it to the man to counter, it's up to him to negotiate a fair deal for himself. If they girl can get a lot and give a guy little in a lopsided deal to her benefit she will do, but at the same time depending on the guy some guys she'll find it more palletable to offer some stuff too than others.

The second point I have heard rejected in many quarters that it's not really a case of a guy proving he has the financial muscle, that is already assumed by his being there, being a WM and not showing anything to the contrary. Showing a girl you can afford this or that by buying her stuff is normally a road to disaster, she will just ask for more & more, quicker and quicker, more expensive stuff etc.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 23, 2019, 03:53:42 PM
Exhibit A in the immediately preceding post evidencing why Trench gets "bullied" on this forum.


This post was composed without the aid of google.




Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 23, 2019, 04:07:28 PM
oh I see, blame the victim!!!
why you see ladies and gentleman of the jury if she hadn't worn provocative clothing she wouldn't have been attacked...

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on April 23, 2019, 04:11:10 PM
Quote
I get the impression that UW will push for the for the biggest transaction they can get away with over time. They won't judge what is fair, just what is the likelihood of them getting it.


Yes, all UW view all relationships as "transactional", which is why the vast majority of UW marry UM.  So WM who travel to Ukraine to get the "biggest bang for their buck" are poor, poor victims, needing protection from these avaracious women.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 23, 2019, 04:54:00 PM
BO, I have met in Ukraine and even in the USA women who fit this description perfectly.
someone naïve will be quickly consumed by the many sharks that roam the seas
knowledge of sharks is not something we are born with
but must acquire after losing a few fingers, as I have done

I think a problem Trench has is his communication style he says “All” instead of “some” or “many” - his generalizations are too general

I have met ALL KINDS of people in Ukraine
but in general it’s a much more “dog eat dog” world than in the west
not a country for “naifs” which describes Trench pretty well, even me to when I was younger
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: SteveInBoston on April 23, 2019, 07:53:35 PM
So,

Back to the topic - being a gentleman or a chump.

I communicated with a beautiful woman from Odessa, who, after several messages back and forth, suggested we meet.  I said I was planning to visit there the next month.  She said she was bored of Odessa and suggested Geneva.  I quickly realized I was put in the Chump category. 

After deciding to meet T, we started making plans for what cities to visit and where to stay.  She picked a modest priced hotel in Kyiv, I picked an Airbnb apartment in Lviv, and she picked an expensive Hotel on the beach in Odessa.  I suggested a more reasonably priced place, but she really wanted to stay at M1 Club hotel.  The thought of her taking advantage crossed my mind, but I decided to be a gentleman and go with her wishes.

Everything went well, more than I hoped.  But one day, while in Odessa, she wanted me to take her shopping for shoes.  She got a pair of diesel sandals and made me get a couple pairs of stylish sneakers (she thought the ones I had were for dedushkas).  Of course I paid for everything, but the doubt crossed my mind.

A few days later we had a long talk, about past relationships and about how we felt about each other.  She said that she was still single and looking because the last two relationships failed because her boyfriends were from different lifestyles than hers.  One was a soldier who could afford basic things but not much else.  Her income was 4 times his and she felt awkward.  I realized the hotel and shopping was sort of a test from her, to see if I was who I said I was and could keep up with her. 

Odd thing, after our talk and we decided tomorrow be a couple, she turned out to be somewhat of a spendthrift.  When I mention we should dine at a nice restaurant she wants to go home and have a home cooked meal instead. Mostly, that is.  A few times she agreed to dine out if the restaurant I suggested had good reviews or were recommended by her friends.  And she doesn't have a large wardrobe.  She spends on pricy clothing for quality and doesn't go for quantity.


Gentleman or Chump.  Each situation is different.  Some are obvious, but some may need clarification by discussing the issue with the woman.  The cat food girl (what a nickname) - she could be leading BB on, or she could have been evaluating BB for his ability to provide.  A modest woman would not have asked for those things and would have waited for them to be offered, but maybe she wanted to be more direct and not waste either of their time.

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 23, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
In that situation, as long as you're getting some "Quo" for your "Quid" then this interaction is pretty much the norm IMHO
one way of avoiding the feeling you're being used is to make the choices yourself, and don't do cheap ones
before I'd make a big investment in travel and presents, I recommend conducting your own testing to make sure that your "trip" is not just you being taken for a ride


Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Gator on April 23, 2019, 09:18:34 PM


Back to the topic - being a gentleman or a chump.

She picked a modest priced hotel in Kyiv, I picked an Airbnb apartment in Lviv, and she picked an expensive Hotel on the beach in Odessa. ....She got a pair of diesel sandals and made me get a couple pairs of stylish sneakers......I realized the hotel and shopping was sort of a test from her, to see if I was who I said I was and could keep up with her......she turned out to be somewhat of a spendthrift.  When I mention we should dine at a nice restaurant she wants to go home and have a home cooked meal instead.

I vote you are a "champ" not a "chump."  I anticipate that if and when you marry (not necessarily to this woman) you would be comfortable with providing such a life together.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on April 23, 2019, 10:38:20 PM
Obviously not statistical but my Latvian male friends when in Slavic  countries take a girl out on a first date if they like her give her 100 dollars and tell her to spend it on make up and clothes and come back for more when it's gone.  So it's a 2 way test .  He shows he's a provider she shows how fast she gets through money and what she spends it on.  It's a completely different mind set.  So you can understand how u w are confused by w m.  I know a few more Slavic men than just my former co workers and this seems to be how they roll.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on April 23, 2019, 10:41:05 PM
And certainly I've been in Steve's position.  The women go extravagant at the beginning you explain the spending is not sustainable and they fall in line and start to run to a budget.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: rwd123 on April 23, 2019, 11:21:16 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again - good women ask for NOTHING because they have pride (dignity).

When seeking a serious relationship, all women everywhere will shit test their guy. How they do that differs from woman to woman. Not all FSUW will test a guy's wallet. The odds are you are better off dumping a woman and moving on if she does - especially in Ukraine (yes there are exceptions but so are blue moons).
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on April 24, 2019, 12:19:08 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again - good women ask for NOTHING because they have pride (dignity).

When seeking a serious relationship, all women everywhere will shit test their guy. How they do that differs from woman to woman. Not all FSUW will test a guy's wallet. The odds are you are better off dumping a woman and moving on if she does - especially in Ukraine (yes there are exceptions but so are blue moons).

You actually contradict yourself in the post.
My comment was going to  be one that applies to many comments earlier in the thread --
ie     Not one size fits all.
Every circumstance can be quite different  -- and all the generalisations are most likely not to be in a guys best interests.

eg  the TC got his knickers in a knot over spending about $300 on a girl --  and has spent the next 3 years writing & complaining  about it !  Basically -- he thinks spending zero is appropriate --even to the point of expecting a girl he meets to pay for her own coffee !
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on April 24, 2019, 12:31:54 AM
non habetis argentum, nec mel
veni venit


Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Patagonie on April 24, 2019, 01:19:01 AM
BO, I have met in Ukraine and even in the USA women who fit this description perfectly.
someone naïve will be quickly consumed by the many sharks that roam the seas
knowledge of sharks is not something we are born with
but must acquire after losing a few fingers, as I have done

I think a problem Trench has is his communication style he says “All” instead of “some” or “many” - his generalizations are too general

I have met ALL KINDS of people in Ukraine
but in general it’s a much more “dog eat dog” world than in the west
not a country for “naifs” which describes Trench pretty well, even me to when I was younger
In FSU to get their results women have to be more upfront. In the west the mindset is quite the same minus statiscally the women who are economically well off (and even among this group you have some wolves). At the end the difference is that western women don't have to be dog eat dog, the courts do it on their behalf. And guess what the court is almost exclusively composed of women. What a coïncidence.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Patagonie on April 24, 2019, 01:38:28 AM
Obviously not statistical but my Latvian male friends when in Slavic  countries take a girl out on a first date if they like her give her 100 dollars and tell her to spend it on make up and clothes and come back for more when it's gone.  So it's a 2 way test .  He shows he's a provider she shows how fast she gets through money and what she spends it on.  It's a completely different mind set.  So you can understand how u w are confused by w m.  I know a few more Slavic men than just my former co workers and this seems to be how they roll.
That's not so bad idea. Because the girl makes her this money. And because of that they want to have the best bang for the same buck, you know them, they can spend hours, days, weeks, months (i saw my ex wife doing this) to chase the branded throuser they want and they come along the shop every week to watch the tag and they ask the saleswoman to know when the discount will be available, want o know about the stock and.... bla bla bla.
Of course if you buy it yourself that's a different story she don't own this money so she basically don't care except if of course you are established as a family, therefore if it's money family so the story is  different.


I think that you have to give a monthly  allowance to the lady when you are commited, as wages in FSU are generally very low. In this case when you have to spend extra money (over her money) you have to keep the control minimum 90% of time. I was regulary showing to my ex wife the amount of taxes needed to be paid, different bills. Also when she asks something you don't want, say no or no i don't like.
Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 24, 2019, 01:55:19 AM
So,

Back to the topic - being a gentleman or a chump.

I communicated with a beautiful woman from Odessa, who, after several messages back and forth, suggested we meet.  I said I was planning to visit there the next month.  She said she was bored of Odessa and suggested Geneva.  I quickly realized I was put in the Chump category. 

After deciding to meet T, we started making plans for what cities to visit and where to stay.  She picked a modest priced hotel in Kyiv, I picked an Airbnb apartment in Lviv, and she picked an expensive Hotel on the beach in Odessa.  I suggested a more reasonably priced place, but she really wanted to stay at M1 Club hotel.  The thought of her taking advantage crossed my mind, but I decided to be a gentleman and go with her wishes.

Everything went well, more than I hoped.  But one day, while in Odessa, she wanted me to take her shopping for shoes.  She got a pair of diesel sandals and made me get a couple pairs of stylish sneakers (she thought the ones I had were for dedushkas).  Of course I paid for everything, but the doubt crossed my mind.

A few days later we had a long talk, about past relationships and about how we felt about each other.  She said that she was still single and looking because the last two relationships failed because her boyfriends were from different lifestyles than hers.  One was a soldier who could afford basic things but not much else.  Her income was 4 times his and she felt awkward.  I realized the hotel and shopping was sort of a test from her, to see if I was who I said I was and could keep up with her. 

Odd thing, after our talk and we decided tomorrow be a couple, she turned out to be somewhat of a spendthrift.  When I mention we should dine at a nice restaurant she wants to go home and have a home cooked meal instead. Mostly, that is.  A few times she agreed to dine out if the restaurant I suggested had good reviews or were recommended by her friends.  And she doesn't have a large wardrobe.  She spends on pricy clothing for quality and doesn't go for quantity.


Gentleman or Chump.  Each situation is different.  Some are obvious, but some may need clarification by discussing the issue with the woman.  The cat food girl (what a nickname) - she could be leading BB on, or she could have been evaluating BB for his ability to provide.  A modest woman would not have asked for those things and would have waited for them to be offered, but maybe she wanted to be more direct and not waste either of their time.

I think your girl is the exception here Steve. There aren't that many women in Ukraine that earn more then men (I mean the decent ones). So few will be in that situation, most of the time when awoman carries on like that it's not a good sign and she needs to be reigned in at the first offence of non date expenditure and boundaries established. If it becomes clear she is a transactional type of girl then it's a case of deciding what deal you want and how to what extent or moving on. My thought is that a lot of girls who are not massively into the guy may be open to transactional relationships. I'm not sure whether such relationships are a good idea or long term go in them.

I think your girl was lucky Steve as you could have easily have thought she was a bad girl and dumped her. I've been in the situation where mixed signals are coming through and been near to the point of calling it a day, its very disconcerting. Without her knowing WM and our culture it's a very silly thing to do. She should have really thought that WM could get the wrong idea about her quite quickly.

In general as Gator says a good girl asks for nothing. If she asks for stuff deal with exactly what she wants (and I don't mean the item asked for), what the setup is and get to the bottom of it or just move on.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: iolanik on June 05, 2019, 11:54:32 AM
So, I have almost two months total time in Ukraine now. I think I am learning at least a little. But.... Okay, so I met this girl in a website after I was in Kiev. I am always cautious when I meet a girl who has a blank profile, but she was really friendly over WhatsApp, so I decided to meet her.

When I met this girl, I was blown away. Her pictures online were pretty conservative, but she was drop dead gorgeous in real life... even when compared to other Ukrainian girls.  She is 34, never been married and has one of the sexiest bodies I have ever seen in my life. I asked her if she would ever like to be famous, and for what, she said she would like to be a Victoria’s secret model... in all seriousness, she could be one if she was a little taller.

When I asked this girl out, she agreed, but asked if I minded giving her 500 UAH for gas. She was borrowing her aunt’s car and wanted money for gas. She lives a little outside Kiev... but I also know this is more than the actual cost for gas. 

This girl is really sweet, and not full of herself. I can imagine she is used to having men fall over themselves for her... so if she is expecting men to pay for things, it is not much of a surprise.

We went on one date and it was nice... very formal. After dinner, I told her that I needed to get some hair clippers. She said she would take me to a place she knew because she had to get some other things.  She got some basic toiletries and I offered to pay.  She was very appreciative.  At the end of the date, she was already suggesting where we could go the next night.

The next night, we went out again, but she had to leave after a few hours to go to a dance class. She said she would like to see me after class, so I waited for her at a coffee shop for 90 minutes and we went out again. She said she had to stop at a store to buy (very expensive) food for her cat. I did not offer to pay for this stuff, but she still wanted to see me again the next night.

So, we went out for a third time... this time, she drove me all over Kiev and showed me interesting things. She took me to an Orthodox Church. We went inside and she lit some candles and we also stayed for a little bit of the service.  She seems to be pious and take her faith seriously.  She needed gas for her car and I offered to fill it up. We had dinner at a very nice restaurant.

Again, she needed to take a break from our date for her dance class. I was surprised when she asked if I would mind giving her 600 UAH to pay for her class.  I complied... it’s not that much money for me, but now I am wondering if I am starting a bad trend. 

Today, I moved from an apartment in Kontraktova Ploshcha to the city center. She agreed to leave work and meet me near the city center because I had a two hour time window between apartments and no place to put my bags. She picked me up and I put my bags in her car. We parked and I bought her some tea at a cafe. She stopped at a pet store again. This time, she asked me for 800UAH for pet food and she said she owes for aunt money for using her car. She then drove me to my new apartment. As we were driving around, she saw a sign for a pop concert on Sunday and said it would be really nice if we could go.

She dropped me off at my apartment to go back to work. She said she will meet me later tonight in the city center and also wants to spend the weekend exploring Kiev together. She apologized for not alway being “present” during our dates. She is still working during the day and has her mind on other things.  She hinted that if I came back and we “went away” somewhere that she could relax more.  I found out “away” means somewhere in Europe.

Anyway, I’m trying to figure out if this girl is serious, or just trying to get free stuff.  Things are very nice, but not overly physical or anything. She is quiet and seems really shy, so it’s really hard to get a pulse on what is really going on. She will take my arm when we go walking together and she will let me hold her hand across the table when we go out. We seem to begin dates with a kiss on the cheek (very close to the mouth)... and end dates with a soft, closed mouth kiss on the lips.

Yes, I’m used to girls who want to get into bed in three dates or less... is this what a “good girl” looks like in Ukraine?  Or...is
this a clever girl who just wants stuff?  This is now the seventh Ukrainian girl I have gone out with and none have been quite like this one....

Thoughts?

A TRUE RW has pride and would not ask for money but will accept it if you offer. If you asked a AW out on a date and if she agreed to meet you and then hit you up for gas money or money for her "Pilates Class" WOULD YOU CONTINUE TO SEE HER? If she is as drop dead gorgeous as you say, you can best believe she has multiple guys, including russians paying her way. Did you ask her what she does for a living? Did you ask her to show you WHERE she works and talk about what she does in any kind of detail such as what's going on with her work or what challenges does she deal with daily? Also, what type of car did she drive? Is it a western car or a Volga/Lada? If it's a western/foreign car she's a sugarbaby or a hoe. She said it's her aunt's car but how does she know how to drive a car if she doesnt own one? Such cars are 200% of what they cost here due to import/luxury tax. I highly doubt she could afford such a car and even if it was her aunts car I wouldve asked what her aunt does for a living. I smell a rat.  One thing you also have to keep in mind is that RWs are materialistic and will use guys to buy every little knick knack they can get. I am assuming she hasnt given it up yet but if there was a big ticket item to be had I wouldnt be surprised. I'd Stay Away from this one personally but it's your decision. Your gut feeling has already told you what to do.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on June 05, 2019, 12:09:19 PM
If it's a western/foreign car she's a sugarbaby or a hoe. Stay Away!

Quite a few of the professionally employed (not hookers) FSU gals (and guys) are now starting to buy lower priced western, Korean and Japanese cars.

Computer and accounting folks are making $1,500 - $2,000 + a month in Kyiv and are living in already paid for apartments with food from Dacha gardens.

Wife has several extended family and friends in these categories.

But yes, she also knows many who are still in $300 per month jobs.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on June 05, 2019, 12:17:21 PM
The OP was in Ukraine, not Russia.

Most cars in Ukraine are purchased from the EU, and most definitely are not Ladas/Volgas.  Import duties on EU sourced vehicles have dropped in 2019, from EUR427 for a new car to EUR150, from EUR2629 to EUR300 for cars up to five years old, and from EUR750 from EUR3906 for cards from six to ten years old.

Paying for cat food is not exactly "begging" for money.

Ukraine's unemployment rate is about 10%, so the woman may not have a job.  In the Kyiv apartment blocks where SIL lives (a mostly working class area), the unemployment rate is far, far higher than 10%. 

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: iolanik on June 05, 2019, 12:29:02 PM
Quite a few of the professionally employed (not hookers) FSU gals (and guys) are now starting to buy lower priced western, Korean and Japanese cars.

Computer and accounting folks are making $1,500 - $2,000 + a month in Kyiv and are living in already paid for apartments with food from Dacha gardens.

Wife has several extended family and friends in these categories.

But yes, she also knows many who are still in $300 per month jobs.

Unless things have changed and financing of cars is available, most places require the car to be purchased outright or with 80-90% down at a very high interest rate, so even a $20K car in the FSU or Ukraine would be steep for someone only making $16K-$24K per year. Again, its in the details and facts but a girl asking him to buy this every single time they go out on a date smells like a gold digging rat to me. It may not to you guys, and the money or affordability is not the issue, it's the "asking for something every time" thats the issue.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on June 05, 2019, 12:43:52 PM
Car loans is one of the fastest growing sectors of Ukraine's economy, and loans have been allowed for at least a decade.  Loans can be made with almost nothing down, just like in the West.  Interest rates, though, are higher than in the West.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: iolanik on June 05, 2019, 12:56:45 PM
Car loans is one of the fastest growing sectors of Ukraine's economy, and loans have been allowed for at least a decade.  Loans can be made with almost nothing down, just like in the West.  Interest rates, though, are higher than in the West.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

Boethius...Interesting. Maybe we should open a used car lot in Odessa with Mercedes, BMWs and such with 50% financing at 20%!!!
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Hammer2722 on June 05, 2019, 01:02:15 PM
Boethius...Interesting. Maybe we should open a used car lot in Odessa with Mercedes, BMWs and such with 50% financing at 20%!!!
Problem with that idea is that you may run afoul of the local mafia......that is if the govt. guys don't try to rip you off....
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on June 05, 2019, 07:43:46 PM
Boethius...Interesting. Maybe we should open a used car lot in Odessa with Mercedes, BMWs and such with 50% financing at 20%!!!


The better half, who keeps up with this stuff, tells me that about 95% of car dealerships in the FSU are owned by the former KGB.  So, Hammer is correct, the current mafia!


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on June 06, 2019, 12:21:23 AM


Unless things have changed and financing of cars is available

So much has changed from 20 years ago.
It ought  to be obvious  -- but no it seems.

It is a first class pia  when guys post  from what they know -- and it is outdated to a ridiculous degree. It is extremely irritating when it appears as a fact !
 :cluebat:

I have read you posts on recent arrival -- and they are littered with fundamentally wrong assertions -eg the one above
In Kyiv   and Odesa  ( and many other cities) there are probably more new cars than where you live !! 


Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: msmob on June 06, 2019, 01:19:07 AM
Unless things have changed and financing of cars is available

As others with FSU partners have pointed out, you are YEARS behind the times..

We have purchased a few cars on credit in Russia..

There is a shared database of payments history and when one pays off a biggish bill ( clear the credit card or loan) Banks ..you have not done biz with..suddenly call you offering  loans new credit cards

Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on June 06, 2019, 12:22:04 PM
In Kyiv   and Odesa  ( and many other cities) there are probably more new cars than where you live !!


According to the Ukrainian Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Association, which keeps track of new car purchases, in 2018, there were 102,363 first registrations of new cars in all of Ukraine.  The figure is slightly lower in 2019. 


California, where iolanik lives, recorded over 2 million new car sales in 2018. 


So, I doubt there are more new cars in Kyiv or Odesa. :)


This post was composed with the aid of google.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on June 06, 2019, 02:28:56 PM

According to the Ukrainian Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Association, which keeps track of new car purchases, in 2018, there were 102,363 first registrations of new cars in all of Ukraine.  The figure is slightly lower in 2019. 


California, where iolanik lives, recorded over 2 million new car sales in 2018. 


So, I doubt there are more new cars in Kyiv or Odesa. :)


This post was composed with the aid of google.

Maybe -- try looking at the %  for a better reflection of my comment --which btw was aimed at making the point that there are not very many Lada's in sight around bigger cities these days. My comment was tongue in cheek -- but -- there are a staggering amount of newer  cars on the road.
To be pedantic -- try the city where op is based -- not California in large.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Boethius on June 06, 2019, 05:50:34 PM
The truer comparison would be a per capita purchase of new vehicles in Ukraine vs the US.


I'm certain we both which country will have the higher purchase level.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 06, 2019, 08:35:36 PM
probably a 25 to one ratio between California and Ukraine in regards to new car purchases and the Ukrainian vehicles will tend to have a lower price point than in California...
pretty fair metric for economic comparison  :'(
and that's before the NBU gets looted and collapses 2 years from now and Russia turns off the gaZ...
the best way to short sell a country, is through it's currency
thankyou for that bit of knowledge Mr Soros


Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on June 06, 2019, 09:49:09 PM
The truer comparison would be a per capita purchase of new vehicles in Ukraine vs the US.


I'm certain we both which country will have the higher purchase level.



This post was composed without the aid of google.

Well -- again no -link is 2019 prices --   link below  is 2018 and actually higher in Ukraine
According to Experian, one of the big three credit scoring agencies, the average car price now tops over $34,000 in 2019!

Figures are very very close in fact fwiw

http://www.financialsamurai.com/average-new-car-price/

(quote author=krimster2 link=topic=23615.msg511583#msg511583 date=1559874936]
probably a 25 to one ratio between California and Ukraine in regards to new car purchases and the Ukrainian vehicles will tend to have a lower price point than in California...
pretty fair metric for economic comparison  :'(
and that's before the NBU gets looted and collapses 2 years from now and Russia turns off the gaZ...
the best way to short sell a country, is through it's currency
thankyou for that bit of knowledge Mr Soros
[/quote]

  FCS - I was being glib !  Bad enough it all and humour goes over Moby's head !

K -- wrong -- the price of cars is much higher than  US ( based on the same models)
Ukraine has had very similar  taxes on car imports and sales to Australia -- so the prices are not dissimilar.
I do understand what you were trying to say --ie   more cheaper cars will be being sold as a % of total sales  in Ukraine,

http://www.finder.com.au/australian-vs-usa-car-prices

QUOTE ( apologies for link but it is what google turned up in a hurry !)
The highest number of new vehicles was sold in Kiev. 23 thousand vehicles have been sold in the capital to the amount over 700 million dollars, with the average price of a sale at $34,097.

The price of used ( 2nd hand) cars would make US guys bleed !!

In Odessa, the average price was $34,648.

http://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/most-popular-cars-in-ukraine/
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 06, 2019, 10:01:10 PM
pre-tax price
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on June 07, 2019, 09:53:09 AM
if you took away Trench, this web site would be a couple of old white men talkin trash 'bout liberals and the best way to yell at people to get off their lawn
thrilling topics
I think Trench was sent by God to make RWD Great Again!!!


Hahahahaha!

Thank you for that!

Bill
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on June 07, 2019, 09:57:00 AM
non habetis argentum, nec mel
veni venit

No money no honey ?

Sorry, I didn't get it all.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on June 07, 2019, 10:17:06 AM
A TRUE RW has pride and would not ask for money but will accept it if you offer. .

Yes, but a "Good Girl" won't accept it unless she envisions a future with you.
What the men here should be seeking is a "Good Girl"
 


If you asked a AW out on a date and if she agreed to meet you and
then hit you up for gas money or money for her "Pilates Class"
WOULD YOU CONTINUE TO SEE HER?

It's a good test regardless of the circumstance. If a Western Woman
asked or did the same thing, what would you do? Your answer should
nearly always be the same.


If she is as drop dead gorgeous as you say, you can best believe she has multiple guys, including russians paying her way.

She's probably only that hot in the OP's eyes. Certain women catch
my eye far more than others. Most would say my wife is attractive
but she is much, much more so in my eyes. She has something that
clicks some part of the monkey part of my brain and drives me wild.

Age is treated far more unfairly in the FSU. In the FSU a woman who
is really, really hot in her 40's will have unlimited men interested in
having sex with her but far, far less in having a relationship with her.

So she can be hot and probably is but she probably has a look that
the OP especially likes and others see as attractive/very attractive
but not devastatingly so. 

If she is super hot and getting money from multiple Russian men,
then she's not going to spend the time trying to rope in Westerners
too. It's far too much work for the reward.

However, if she has been a recently cast off from such a situation
then she might see Western men as a way to turn back the clock
so to speak.



Also, what type of car did she drive? Is it a western car or a Volga/Lada? If it's a western/foreign car she's a sugarbaby or a hoe. She said it's her aunt's car but how does she know how to drive a car if she doesnt own one? Such cars are 200% of what they cost here due to import/luxury tax. I highly doubt she could afford such a car and even if it was her aunts car I wouldve asked what her aunt does for a living. I smell a rat.  One thing you also have to keep in mind is that RWs are materialistic and will use guys to buy every little knick knack they can get. I am assuming she hasnt given it up yet but if there was a big ticket item to be had I wouldnt be surprised. I'd Stay Away from this one personally but it's your decision. Your gut feeling has already told you what to do.

I haven't been staying current with this thread. I guess I better take
some time over the weekend and read what our member has managed
to get himself into, more than once it seems.


Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: iolanik on June 07, 2019, 03:39:21 PM

So much has changed from 20 years ago.
It ought  to be obvious  -- but no it seems.

It is a first class pia  when guys post  from what they know -- and it is outdated to a ridiculous degree. It is extremely irritating when it appears as a fact !
 :cluebat:

I have read you posts on recent arrival -- and they are littered with fundamentally wrong assertions -eg the one above
In Kyiv   and Odesa  ( and many other cities) there are probably more new cars than where you live !!

Fundamentally wrong assertions? Oh you mean the single comment about cars and financing? So please educate me on the incorrect assertions I have made other than car financing? I suppose my assertions about RWs is also incorrect? Hmmm I suppose there has been a complete transformation of RWs from the current ones Ive experienced as well as the exwife....I guess RWs have turned away from thei current technological society and all of its materialism and have gone BACKWARDS to a simpler time. Please do tell!
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: iolanik on June 07, 2019, 04:09:34 PM

In Kyiv   and Odesa  ( and many other cities) there are probably more new cars than where you live !!

Before I reply, I think you were a part of the original RWG discussion board weren't you? Your tag seems to ring a bell...so I was just wondering.

I live (unfortunately) in the San FranSICKO Bay area of CA. So your statement of more new cars in Kiev and Odessa than in my area was quite hilarious to me... I would bet my last invoice statement that there are NOT more new cars in both of those cities combined than in this retarded silicon valley area...I'd also point out that while there are many "wealthy "New" russians, there are FAR more millionaires in this toilet of a city they call San FranSICKO than kiev and odessa combined. Kiev and Odessa may be impressive compared to Santa Fe NM or Little Rock AR, but not even close to dumbass Cali.  DISCLAIMER: This is not any attempt at bragging, in fact I find CALI quite sickening bc it is an extremely selfish culture here in the heart of leftist libtard central. P.S. I had just read this article in the WSJ about the number of millionaires in this fucking city due to the tech and IPOs that are going on...personally, I cant wait to leave!
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: iolanik on June 07, 2019, 04:39:00 PM
I haven't been staying current with this thread. I guess I better take
some time over the weekend and read what our member has managed
to get himself into, more than once it seems.

Frankly I couldn't give half a rat's ass what members think of my posts as each person has their own experience. I only decided to come back to share some thoughts. Personally, let each person experience the pursuit of RWs in the FSU and let them learn by experience for themselves. For those members who are still married, power to you all as I am truly happy for you, but while those may criticize my perspectives due to my situation, you are also looking at things from a perspective due to the fact that your relationships with RWs are doing well, which may not necessarily represent the majority of AW/RW situations out there, nor does mine.
My posts may come off as absolutes, but honestly, unless you guys have put yourself out there and are still involved in the process, who are you kidding? In case you haven't noticed, the cultures of the U.S./Asia and FSU have become EXTREMELY MATERIALISTIC in this day & age. While I may not be pursuing RWs from the FSU, I STILL deal with RWs here in the San Francisco and Walnut Creek area of Northern CA (Let me tell you there are a boat load!) And I have given up bc they are ALL the same. I invite any Northern or Southern CA guys out there to please tell me your stories or compare note *With the exception of GQBlue since he married a diamond**

I would also ask the board members what level of exposure and experience you have with RWs (NOT INCLUDING YOUR WIFE if you are married or her cousins or friends) in your local areas? HOw many RWs are in your local areas that are not related in some fashion to your wife and how often do you interact with them. The one thing I have noticed at least in San FranSICKO is that there are a boat load of Russkies here, namely in the outer sunset district (Geary/25th st)  Not to mention Walnut Creek and what I see is not very inviting. Does that mean 100% ALL RWs are like this? No, But when you deal with a majority of a given population set, one gets a bit tired of trying to find a needle in a haystack.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 07, 2019, 04:57:08 PM
“Frankly I couldn't give half a rat's ass”

I collect rat asses, you may not realize it, but rat ass collecting is one of the fastest growing hobbies in the United States...

even half a rat ass, if it’s in good condition, can still fetch a good price depending of course on breed and coloration...

if you’d be interesting in parting with yours, please let me know
also, if you don’t mind me asking, what happened to the other half of the rat’s ass?
if you can’t locate it, I happen to have another half a rat’s ass that I could glue on to yours
and we could sell that and split it, whadda ya say?
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: SteveInBoston on June 07, 2019, 10:06:04 PM
Before I found my way here, when I was starting to look eastward, I found a website/blog called Western women suck. 

The founder/owner of the site married a RW, and has nothing but praises for her, before and after marriage.  There site is pretty much dead.  I think the last blog was in 2016. 

There is a current commenter on that site, who still stays active for some reason.  He posts comments, reads counter-comments, post counter-counter-comments.  He started off agreeing with the premise - western women suck.  He's from Canada, I assume, according to his frequent complaints about Canadian women.  Then he found and married a Ukrainian woman. 

Apparantly the guy went through a similar experience as IO.  Selfish wife, bad divorce, etc.  His last posts is very similar to the one's by IO now - full of venom and hatred for Ukrainian Women.  Not just his ex-wife, but all Ukrainian women.  Apprarently they are all evil scum of the earth...

That's all there is to the guy now - bitterness and hatred. 

IO, I hope you find someone for you, someone who fits your personality and lifestyle.  Maybe take a step back and breathe a bit, or just rant more and let it out of your system.

Not all RW women are bad.  Not all AW are good, not all UK women are good/bad, etc.  Everyone is different.  If you see bad traits in other RW, it's because that is what you are focused on.  A comment about shopping, complaints about a relationship, and you assume the worse, because of your experience with your wife.  People do it all the time - catholics are bad, protestants are bad, seventh day adventists are bad, democrats are scum, republicans are scum, jehova's witnesses knock on doors of every single soviet apartment...

Brownbeard, whereever he is now, focused on finding people with beards in Kyiv.  And he found them, and to him it seemed as common as day.  Go figure.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on June 08, 2019, 03:04:53 AM
Look around your married friends all have different relationships with their wives.  There is no standard set up.  We are all given our genes and then evolve based on our environment.  At passport control I said I was there to meet one person not a tourist to clear up a point.  The problem with dating fsu is probably you have limited time to live alongside one another before the marriage commitment and its implications.  There are nice women in the UK but most are married with few of the single ones being nice.  Through friends I've meet many single divorced females in the fsu and the standard and availability is far higher than in the UK.  Most fsu women I know married their first man, they met at 15 and divorced after one child in their early 20s because the husband went off with another woman.  So if you meet a woman in her 30s without a child you're dating an atypical woman. 
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: GenMish on June 08, 2019, 07:30:28 AM
  In case you haven't noticed, the cultures of the U.S./Asia and FSU have become EXTREMELY MATERIALISTIC in this day & age. While I may not be pursuing RWs from the FSU, I STILL deal with RWs here in the San Francisco and Walnut Creek area of Northern CA (Let me tell you there are a boat load!) And I have given up bc they are ALL the same. I invite any Northern or Southern CA guys out there to please tell me your stories or compare note *With the exception of GQBlue since he married a diamond**

I would also ask the board members what level of exposure and experience you have with RWs (NOT INCLUDING YOUR WIFE if you are married or her cousins or friends) in your local areas? HOw many RWs are in 


When I went to Russia 25 years ago, there was a mindset among Russians in general to spend money quickly. It was perhaps somewhat for gratification, but mainly they grew up that way because the ruble was constantly dropping in value. A steady build of wealth through planning and investment was in stark contrast to how 'New Russians' received their windfalls. I was married for 23 years, and I would say for the first 15 years my RW was less materialistic than AW counterparts, the last 8 I would guessimate about the same as AW counterparts with one exception, clothes
  I remember getting a call from lawyer after she received my wifes economic need report and she said clothes and makeup were grossly inflated and we need to object. I then asked how much was being asked. After I was told, I said that was about what she spends. My female $450/hr lawyer almost dropped the phone.
  We didn't interact with too many Russians, simply because there were so few Russians around where we lived. However, we did keep in close contact with several she knew from her home town that married AM like myself. I would say in general, they were fine RW and less materialistic than AW
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on June 08, 2019, 01:26:41 PM
Frankly I couldn't give half a rat's ass what members think of my posts as each person has their own experience. I only decided to come back to share some thoughts.

Welcome to the forum, I encourage you to post as you see fit.
I think it's Jay who thinks that people who aren't as current in
dating as he is shouldn't be allowed to post without his permission.


For those members who are still married, power to you all as I am truly
happy for you, but while those may criticize my perspectives due to my
situation, you are also looking at things from a perspective due to the
fact that your relationships with RWs are doing well, which may not
necessarily represent the majority of AW/RW situations out there,
nor does mine.

Hmmmm, I think that it could be argued that your recent divorce may
have tainted your perspective as well.

Everyone is going to have different experiences there is no monolithic
situation or character trait that fits everything. There is every type of
girl in the FSU. They have Angels and they have devils who will sell
your organs for a new pair of boots.

There are FSU women who can sing like a dream and there are FSU
women who make the neighbors dog cry when they sing in the shower.
There are FSU women who can do complicated calculus (ask ML) and
there are FSU women who can't count past 11 without taking off their
shoes. I was asked honestly by a FSU woman (it wasn't a joke) if we
had the moon in the USA where I lived, because she would really miss
looking at it if we didn't.

They have EVERYTHING, every type. They have women who are full
on hold my beer, lead paint licking Batsh!t cRaZy! They have it all. 


I STILL deal with RWs here in the San Francisco and Walnut Creek area of Northern CA (Let me tell you there are a boat load!) And I have given up bc they are ALL the same. I invite any Northern or Southern CA guys out there to please tell me your stories or compare note *With the exception of GQBlue since he married a diamond**

I would also ask the board members what level of exposure and experience you have with RWs (NOT INCLUDING YOUR WIFE if you are married or her cousins or friends) in your local areas? HOw many RWs are in your local areas that are not related in some fashion to your wife and how often do you interact with them. The one thing I have noticed at least in San FranSICKO is that there are a boat load of Russkies here, namely in the outer sunset district (Geary/25th st)  Not to mention Walnut Creek and what I see is not very inviting. Does that mean 100% ALL RWs are like this? No, But when you deal with a majority of a given population set, one gets a bit tired of trying to find a needle in a haystack.

I lived in the Bay Area for over 20 years, now I'm in Texas. I went to several
different learn Russian Meet ups and dated several locally (in California).
They have a Russian language telephone book/yellow pages that was
located next to where I worked in Burlingame.

I've dated 4 different Russian women from Novosbirisk while living in the
bay area, but I've dated others as well.

I've traveled in the FSU including Odessa, Kiev, Lugansk, Dnepropetrovsk, Tblisi,
St Petersburg and Voronezh. I don't know how many FSUW I've dated, it's a lot
but there's no way for me to count them.

I spent 9 years meeting a multitude women before I found my wife. I've met
and interacted with countless FSUW, their children, their girl friends, husbands
both Western and Eastern, in all sorts of social situations, weddings, birthdays,
barbecues, celebrations, arguments, confrontations, etc.

I would classify myself as experienced enough. 


HAVING SAID ALL THAT:
Post on whatever you please. This is a still a free country (mostly) and
this is the internet and F#CK anybody who says you can't.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on June 08, 2019, 03:11:19 PM
. . . now I'm in Texas.

What??

Last I knew you were in Wyoming.

Did you officially announce the change here and get approval for the move ??
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: JayH on June 08, 2019, 05:13:44 PM
Welcome to the forum, I encourage you to post as you see fit.
I think it's Jay who thinks that people who aren't as current in
dating as he is shouldn't be allowed to post without his permission.



No 2T --   you know full well that my objection is guys posting " fact info" from yesteryear  as if it is the same today. While true -- some human interactions may not be that different -- the tangible has changed and the overall situation quite different. 20+ years ago --plenty of FSUW wanted/needed to "escape"--   so guys with little else to offer it was all possible  -- today that is not the case.

Why is it relevant -- because as you can see here currently in forum-- guys like TC take that stuff as verbatim  and it is not a good advice to take.

When a guy posts about cars of 20 years ago as being the norm-- it is basically bs today.
When a guy recommends travel options.locations and accommodation  situations  from a different era ( eg the floor "attendants" that used to be present in hotels etc)  as being of consequence today -- !!!!!

To your credit 2T -- I have noted you at the least do far less of that stuff in your comments today-- so my pointing that out to you did something!! :clapping:
I prefer to make a comment like I did-- and the OP to take the point -- the alternative is to have Moby like trolling at every opportunity ! :deadhorse:

As an aside to earlier comments-- in Ukraine many of the Soviet era cars are now being restored -- and as in the west collectable cars are bringing more than the cost of a new car !
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 08, 2019, 09:37:37 PM
JayJay,

Ukraine's economy is more or less the same as it was 20 yr ago...
what was true then, is true today...

if Ukraine is currently uniquely different from it's past
then please explain why Igor Kolomoisky's personal lawyer Andriy Bogdan is now head of Zelensky's presidential administration.
and how Kolomoisky' getting back PrivatBank could ever happen!!!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-privatbank/ukraine-tycoon-crows-i-won-after-privatbank-nationalization-ruled-illegal-idUSKCN1RU1KY

I am tellin ya'll right now, this whole thing is a setup to take down the NBU
wipe it the f*&ck clean
will be the biggest bank scam of all time
leaving tens of billions in unpaid debts to EU and USA on top of stripping ALL NBU cash reserves

after the complete and utter collapse of the NBU, and Russia cuts off the flow of gas and oil to Ukraine
Russia is going to use this as an opportunity to use political engineering
to get Right Sector and other Ukrainian right wing parties to attack the government
and "blame it on the Jews" (Kolomoisky and Zelensky are both Jews)
then to initiate public attacks with hired titushki to murder Jews, burn synagogues, etc
prominent Ukrainian Jews are already writing the speeches pleading for international help

but alas, only one country, their neighbor Russia, comes to their aid
in their moment of greatest need
at least that's how Russia will write it in their history books
on why Putin is the biggest Russian hero since Stalin
the bringer of water to Krim
he who saved the Jews from a second holocaust

then dear reader,
gentle, kind, noble reader
after Putin has burned all his bridges with the West
after Trump has left office
and vengeful democrats
hold the reins of power in Washington
Russia
will still need a bridge to the west
and I'm gonna make em one

so you keep oo-cry-ee-na JayJay
my daughter and I will be at Four Seasons Moscow
where they STILL have "Face Control"
but I will be the most khoroshiy malchik you can ever imagine, da oichen khoroshiy...
and my clothes every bit as as perfect as my smile
while reading the faces of the audience
for their reaction to my daughter's presentation






 
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on June 08, 2019, 10:19:50 PM
. . . Igor Kolomoisky's personal lawyer Andriy Bogdan is now head of Zelensky's presidential administration.  and how Kolomoisky' is getting PrivatBank back!!!!
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-privatbank/ukraine-tycoon-crows-i-won-after-privatbank-nationalization-ruled-illegal-idUSKCN1RU1KY

I am tellin ya'll right now, this whole thing is a setup to take down the NBU
wipe it the f*&ck clean
will be the biggest bank scam of all time
leaving tens of billions in unpaid debts to EU and USA on top of stripping ALL NBU cash reserves
. . .

Are you really Nouriel Roubini ??
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 08, 2019, 10:27:39 PM
no, even though we have VERY similar tastes in Women
Nour-iel is single and I'm married to a Ukrainian woman
but you CAN call me Doctor Doom however if it pleases you
because it doesn't please him
he's more the volatile, emotional type and me the cold calculating kind
yin and yang
but we always find ourselves in agreement with each other
which do you prefer Nassim Taleb or Nour-iel?
or?

 


Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: calmissile on June 08, 2019, 10:46:38 PM
no, even though we have VERY similar tastes in Women
Nour-iel is single and I'm married to a Ukrainian woman
but you CAN call me Doctor Doom however if it pleases you
because it doesn't please him
he's more the volatile, emotional type and me the cold calculating kind
yin and yang
but we always find ourselves in agreement with each other
which do you prefer Nassim Taleb or Nour-iel?
or?

Curious..,... your post says you are married to a Ukrainian woman yet your profile indicates a Russian woman??
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 08, 2019, 11:13:32 PM
my Crimean wife didn't cross the border...
the border crossed her
on language and Kultur my wife considers herself Russian,
even lived part of her life in Rostov
but passport WAS Ukrainian
to me, the difference between the two wouldn't be enough to buy a newspaper with
"gamburger" instead of of "hamburger"
"Gitler" instead of "Hitler", what's the big deal
be like people who say "poe-tay-toe"
instead of "poe-tah-toe"
should fight some kinda war over this distinction
nah, that's not what's it's about
always ask, "quo bono"?
"who benefits?"

kto?
the greatest hero eveh, moy Brat

Chorny Volchik
with his chorny plosh
in his dacha
on the chorny moira

it's all freakin chorny man

P.S.

I was partly raised by my Russian Grand Mother
she was the first person to teach me Russian language and Kultur
her USA nationalization certificate
lists her as being born in Kiev, Russia
and my Grand Father in Odessa, Russia
pic enclosed
so being consistent with the historical norm
which is to be inconsistent


the meaning of a revolution
is to turn in a circle
and return to the spot where you started from
in a couple of more years
Ukraine will have made a full revolution
and come right back
to where it started from
and it will be Odessa, Russia once more

a man, a plan, a canal – Panama!
I REALLY know this stuff backwards and forwards
and it's why Russians are gonna pay me manoga kapusta
some serious amount of 'coin
even though they think I'm cra-zier than Rasputin
slovo!

of course, my daughters are going to have to marry into oligarch's now...
but my oldest already knows how to handle Russian men quite easily...




 


Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on June 09, 2019, 12:48:23 AM
Interesting krim  had the same experience as you mostly raised by a grandmother from near minsk Russia.  Probably why we are like we are as men not right for the western woman as we were looked after too well.  My grandparents had the patriarch and matriarch relationship down to a tee loved yelled and were together from 15 to my grandmother's death. 
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 09, 2019, 07:48:02 AM
yo me bruv,

and like you I had a British mother, born in Hereford....
but my father was first generation American
 
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on June 09, 2019, 09:03:22 AM
My ancestry is so mixed.

Came ashore in Jamestown, Virginia area in 1630s or so from England, but way back from Flanders to England with William the Conqueror.

Subsequently, tons of German, Irish, Scot, Welsh, Dutch, Swedish, maybe a little native Indian thrown in.

And the descendants gradually moved west to the lush farmland of our MidWest.

Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on June 09, 2019, 09:16:39 AM
Nope Krim i'm the other-way round generations of English farmers on my fathers side
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 09, 2019, 09:32:33 AM
my mother's family all worked in the textile mills in Rochdale for pennies (literally, I have some of the company tokens they were paid with)
except for my great-grandfather who became the head gardener for the Clive Family at Whitfield
father's family were Russian Jews fleeing the pogroms
even they had to pass through the UK when leaving Odessa
Hamburg to Hull
then depart the UK from Liverpool
to the USA
some of "my Russians" got into the Odessa Mob in Philadelphia
if you saw the HBO Series "Board Walk", the Jewish Butcher in Philadelphia was VERY similar to my family
after WWII, they became respected businessmen
but now they're all just generic Americans

"Came ashore in Jamestown, Virginia area in 1630s or so from England, but way back from Flanders to England with William the Conqueror. "

ML, you look really good for your age...

 


Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on June 09, 2019, 09:48:39 AM
What??

Last I knew you were in Wyoming.

Did you officially announce the change here and get approval for the move ??

I'll post an update on my Trippin in St Pete trip report/blog
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3432.new#new

Title: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: 2tallbill on June 09, 2019, 10:16:07 AM
No 2T --   you know full well that my objection is guys posting " fact info" from yesteryear  as if it is the same today.

It's true, I was exaggerating your objection. You often do it too forcibly,
not to me because I have pretty thick skin.

I humbly apologize

Why is it relevant -- because as you can see here currently in forum-- guys
like TC take that stuff as verbatim  and it is not a good advice to take.

TC only takes advice that reinforces whatever he is doing/thinking/believes.
He's the forum knucklehead. 

While true -- some human interactions may not be that different -- the tangible has changed and the overall situation quite different. 20+ years ago --plenty of FSUW wanted/needed to "escape"--   so guys with little else to offer it was all possible  -- today that is not the case.

When a guy recommends travel options.locations and accommodation  situations  from a different era ( eg the floor "attendants" that used to be present in hotels etc)  as being of consequence today -- !!!!!

To your credit 2T -- I have noted you at the least do far less of that stuff in your comments today-- so my pointing that out to you did something!! :clapping:
I prefer to make a comment like I did-- and the OP to take the point

A lot of this, the vast majority of this is boy meets girl. That's been going on
since they stopped arranged marriages, kidnapping of brides and letting the
girl have a say in the matter.

I haven't tried to find, catch and pursue a woman in 6 years? Finding a
good girl is still finding a good girl. Dumping a bad girl is still dumping
a bad girl. Falling off the horse and getting back on is the same, much
of that stuff is still the same.

On my profile it says "Married 3-5 years" and guys will have to take into
account that when I talk about websites and such, but chasing a woman
around your apartment with her panties on your head will be very, very
similar until girls move on from wearing knickers.


I prefer to make a comment like I did-- and the OP to take the point -- the alternative is to have Moby like trolling at every opportunity ! :deadhorse:

Moby is going to be Moby, he can't help it. He's been booted many times,
he is like the Terminator or Rocky 17 he just keeps coming back.

Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on June 09, 2019, 11:10:55 AM
Krim same reason for my grandmothers family Jewish from Minsk
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 09, 2019, 11:22:36 AM
up until 1910 Britain was open to Eastern European immigration, USA up until 1922...
totally idiotic of them to restrict this, but they did, and it cost millions of lives that otherwise would have been strong British and US citizens
my family assimilated in 1 generation, and now are totally generic, indistinguishable from any other goyim
my grandchildren will be able to be called Aryan under 1935 Nuremberg laws...
so WTF...
I have racially purified my family, same way my father did
my grandchildren will be juden frei
sweet...
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Jamesukjames on June 09, 2019, 11:34:04 AM
Interesting , I know my great grandfather got drafted a few years after arriving in the UK, was in the trenches from 1914 to 1918 and died of a heart attack 1920
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 09, 2019, 12:06:43 PM
my British relatives got wiped out by WWI
and when I was a kid found forgotten letters in the attic from a kind nurse
who was with my grandfather's brother when he died in a field hospital
roughly half the young men were killed in my family

my dad drove a sherman tank in WWII got frost bitten and lost toes in the bulge but kept shoving the clutch with his bad foot until well into January
used his Yiddish to claim he spoke German and was able to get an easy job questioning prisoners From January into the fall of '45 when he returned home
about half of all males in both sides of my family have been in the US military, myself included..
we even have one graduate of West Point
we're all professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists
you know... tax payers...


Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: GQBlues on June 10, 2019, 11:09:22 AM
Frankly I couldn't give half a rat's ass what members think of my posts as each person has their own experience. I only decided to come back to share some thoughts. Personally, let each person experience the pursuit of RWs in the FSU and let them learn by experience for themselves. For those members who are still married, power to you all as I am truly happy for you, but while those may criticize my perspectives due to my situation, you are also looking at things from a perspective due to the fact that your relationships with RWs are doing well, which may not necessarily represent the majority of AW/RW situations out there, nor does mine.
My posts may come off as absolutes, but honestly, unless you guys have put yourself out there and are still involved in the process, who are you kidding?

Iolani-

FWIW, your state reminded me of another long time member who experienced much the same as you with yours. His handle is GregfromGA. That also involved the gal changing, involved his MIL, two kids..he went from feeling 'lucky' to the complete opposite towards his ex, and this adventure...some of the similarities in your stories seem pretty eery.

You can read some of his posts in the recent past when he dealt with his break-up. Like you, he now says he won't recommend this venture to anyone, much less do it himself.

I remember coming on here years ago blowing my own horn about how lucky I thought I was. To make a long story short as it turns out I didn't know shit. The girl I married, lived with for 7 years and had 2 kids with turned out to be a complete 180 of what I thought I had. I didn't run and hide here when the crap it the fan. My ex remarried and was divorced after a mere 5 months. Looking back I honestly thought I had  married the most caring,humble,innocent, funny, intelligent woman I could ever hope to find. I harbor few regrets because I got two wonderful kids out of an otherwise grease fire of a marriage. I don't give much advice these days on said subject. I've been back over a couple of times the past year and quite frankly  I see the same characteristics that would make me consider castrating myself rather than be married to and go thought another clusterfock again. I have a number of friends that are or have been married to a FSU lady. Most of our stories run parallel. Those stories are not warm and focking fuzzy. Those stories leads us to honestly believe that there is something in the DNA of some of these women that warrants them being to be forcibly incarcerated and studied by  teams of doctors  from Johns Hopkins to study them around the clock. Of course Lily would be excluded from this group. Everyone knows she is a sweetheart.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: krimster2 on June 10, 2019, 11:48:33 AM
the way to SUCCEED with Russian women
is to be proactive with Russian women
and give them what they want....
before they decide to go and try and get it on their own if you don't
so, just give them what they want...
just give it to them...
and guess what
they’ll feel gratitude towards you
the first step to feeling love...

seriously, half the population in Ukraine HAS PTSD
so you remove ALL ANXIETY from your spouse...
don’t ever give them any anxiety causing stimulus
then, you always perform small acts of kindness daily
until they become a family ritual

also, and I really hope the prudes don’t get triggered
but every Russian/Ukrainian woman I gave oral pleasure to
became my freaking slave
EVERY freaking one
including my wife
literally would do whatever I wanted them to do without any ‘guff
as long as I waxed the beaver
Russian guys like to receive, but not give
so if a Russian/Ukrainian girl gave me problems
this is how I’d straighten her out
and this lasts for a few days usually
and you think I'm joking, but I'm not...




Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: Faux Pas on June 10, 2019, 12:16:59 PM
Iolani-

FWIW, your state reminded me of another long time member who experienced much the same as you with yours. His handle is GregfromGA. That also involved the gal changing, involved his MIL, two kids..he went from feeling 'lucky' to the complete opposite towards his ex, and this adventure...some of the similarities in your stories seem pretty eery.

You can read some of his posts in the recent past when he dealt with his break-up. Like you, he now says he won't recommend this venture to anyone, much less do it himself.

Greg and I grew up about 20 miles from each other and a few years apart. I actually worked with his father in a factory for a few years while I was in high school. He's bitter and from what he's been through he probably has a right to be. But, he like many others that have had marriages go down the shitter really couldn't be accused of doing any due diligence. They follow the little head rather than the big one, fail to learn and know the women and ignore the flags either high flying and waving or the little subtle clues. Greg told me he saw his soon to be wife in a train station and declared that's the woman he's going to marry and had yet to meet her. All too often many of these guys fall in love with a website profile, fly across the world and visit but never know or even take the time to know who they've fallen in love with.

There are no short cuts. I was diligent but I was also lucky. It takes a lot of both IMO. At the end of the day all rules to "Boy meets Girl" still applies. So many who have made to trip and found a wife seem to avoid that little factoid.
Title: Re: Being a gentleman or a chump?
Post by: ML on June 11, 2019, 09:58:56 PM
I really hope the prudes don’t get triggered but every Russian/Ukrainian woman I gave oral pleasure to
became my freaking slave EVERY freaking one including my wife literally would do whatever I wanted them to do without any ‘guff' as long as I waxed the beaver.


I haven't found this to be the case at all.

In general, in fact, you can give the woman oral and any/all other techniques to help her achieve dozens of orgasms . . . and it all will be forgotten in 10 minutes.

They just don't appreciate it like a man would.

If I achieved 3 orgasms, let alone 30,  within a couple of hours I would be floating around in a daze with a huge grin for hours or maybe days and would agree to most anything.

With a woman, it means virtually nothing; they can start bitching about something within the hour.