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Author Topic: Trench's Questions and Philosophies  (Read 149659 times)

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Offline Jumper

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1575 on: May 22, 2018, 01:19:37 PM »


As I have posted in the past, any job at which you will make good money - money enough to support yourself - will also make  you a target for Ukrainians.  My husband's cousin owns kiosks selling foods all over Kyiv.  He has to pay a roof (protection money) to keep them in operation. Another cousin owns a salon.  She also pays protection money.  Another, as I posted previously, leases farmlands.  She also owns two stores in Kyiv.  She also pays protection money.  This is common in Ukraine.

I've seen them shake down a babushka at a little a little beer kiosk.
It's why it can never really realize its potential as a country.

  Corruption from the tiniest thing to the largest,at every level.





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Offline Jumper

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1576 on: May 22, 2018, 01:29:33 PM »
I know of two couples here, were the man needed a sponsor to get the k1 granted as their income did not meet the requirement.

Those women were nuts to follow through, but they did.
One guy is dating another woman in ukraine now ,and planning to leave his current wife and has told her so.
How they funds trips I have no idea.

But I do believe TC is much better than more than a few I've met over the years that married and some long term.

Pretty low bar to compare to, it my point is even those men,who at the time I felt had far more issues than financial (or TC) were as successful , in average , as most any  marraiges. Strange but true.

There is a hat for every head
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Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1577 on: May 22, 2018, 01:51:32 PM »

- Your income is too low amd so you will fail the financial test
- You will probably fail the accommodation test
- Your savings are under 16,000 and so do not count

BTW I have modernised my primary properties in the past, and you are only exempt from capital gains after 3 years. The next house is always more expensive. My last endeavour was break even as the property market in the north never really recovered after the last price crash. More fantasy land thinking from you. Perhaps you need to find a partner working in the construction industry!

Accomodation test?

I have somewhere to live, I even own it.

Well as said before I can temporarily do over the 18.6k for six months for the application and reduce thereafter. I don't have rent to pay so my accommodation costs are cheap.

I can get to 16k or more particularly if I work more hours for six months before applying. I can even borrow money off credit cards or take out loans to get if above this amount at least temporarily on paper.

Believe me there are people, couples & families that live on far less than I do in the UK and have far less financial clout. If things I've got in motion turn out good for me then I will be in a better financial position in time.

As far as capit al gains was concerned 3 years is news to me. The last I heard was that if you live in the property for six months you are free from capital gains.

Lookin up it looks like if you convert the property you pay CGT or buy it to renovate & sell. However you don't pay CGT  if it is your only/main home accusing to the 'which' website. I would guess this is if you renovate as a builder as your business. No way otherwise would they have any clue about if you were renovating to sell on, unless you put your foot in it. There was a builder guy along my road who bought a house at the same auction as me,  renovated and sold on just after six months. I doubt he would have if he was paying CGT & stamp duty (pretty sure he lived elsewhere) wouldn't have been worth his while.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1578 on: May 22, 2018, 02:32:57 PM »
Believe me there are people, couples & families that live on far less than I do in the UK and have far less financial clout. If things I've got in motion turn out good for me then I will be in a better financial position in time.


It doesn't matter what other couples live on.  You must meet the tests the government establishes, or your spouse (should you marry) will not be entitled to a visa.  This isn't rocket science.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline Boethius

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1579 on: May 22, 2018, 02:46:00 PM »
I know of two couples here, were the man needed a sponsor to get the k1 granted as their income did not meet the requirement.

Those women were nuts to follow through, but they did.
One guy is dating another woman in ukraine now ,and planning to leave his current wife and has told her so.
How they funds trips I have no idea.

But I do believe TC is much better than more than a few I've met over the years that married and some long term.

Pretty low bar to compare to, it my point is even those men,who at the time I felt had far more issues than financial (or TC) were as successful , in average , as most any  marraiges. Strange but true.

There is a hat for every head


While I agree there is a hat for every head, in a way, the attitudes are appalling.  Trench  at times exhibits the worst qualities of men looking for wives in the FSU, although he at least is honest about his foibles.  The way I interpret his posts, he is not looking for an equal.  He is searching in a poor country so he can leverage his own meager salary, and a foreign woman's lack of understanding of the economics of his culture, for his benefit.  There is no reciprocity, no mutual benefit.  Perhaps that is because, I assume, he has never been in love.  Or perhaps he is just a selfish SOB who in incapable of looking at things from other perspectives.  I make no judgment on which applies.







To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1580 on: May 22, 2018, 03:35:20 PM »
I'm not referring to travel costs.  I am referring to marriage.

Also, I think if Blighty's analysis of Trench's working class attitudes is correct (I assume it is), he would be better to visit places like Zaporizhia, Dnepropetrovsk, Kherson, and Mykolayiv.

What analysis is that?
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Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1581 on: May 22, 2018, 03:48:21 PM »
It may sound to you as if everyone here is a naysayer, Trench, but we can just see the holes in your planning.  Were you 25 and doing this, I'd say it's foolish, but you're young, just be careful, don't cross any gopniks, always be aware of your surroundings, and enjoy yourself.  But you're not 25, and I just see it as a waste of time, and, more importantly, poor planning on your part with respect to achieving your desired goal.

Well I admit Lviv is a bit of a grasp but I think it's a risk I would like to try out just this once. Ive done meet one before so would like to try the alternative. It's easiest to do in a pleasant location. If it doesn't work well I will try some long weekends this year to some of the cities you mention. I know time is not on my side but think I all I can do is keep banging away as best I can. If I were aware at ghe start of this search that I could just go out there and calls girls up on the hoof I would have probably do so. However, odds are I would have just made different mistakes.
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Offline Blighty

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1582 on: May 22, 2018, 04:10:49 PM »
Accomodation test?

I have somewhere to live, I even own it.

Well as said before I can temporarily do over the 18.6k for six months for the application and reduce thereafter. I don't have rent to pay so my accommodation costs are cheap.

I can get to 16k or more particularly if I work more hours for six months before applying. I can even borrow money off credit cards or take out loans to get if above this amount at least temporarily on paper.

Believe me there are people, couples & families that live on far less than I do in the UK and have far less financial clout. If things I've got in motion turn out good for me then I will be in a better financial position in time.

As far as capit al gains was concerned 3 years is news to me. The last I heard was that if you live in the property for six months you are free from capital gains.

Lookin up it looks like if you convert the property you pay CGT or buy it to renovate & sell. However you don't pay CGT  if it is your only/main home accusing to the 'which' website. I would guess this is if you renovate as a builder as your business. No way otherwise would they have any clue about if you were renovating to sell on, unless you put your foot in it. There was a builder guy along my road who bought a house at the same auction as me,  renovated and sold on just after six months. I doubt he would have if he was paying CGT & stamp duty (pretty sure he lived elsewhere) wouldn't have been worth his while.

You are talking about renting out your house to live in Ukraine (and so giving up your job)! CORRECT? This has an impact on both the income and accommodation tests.

The VAF4A form in question 3.2 asks how much money you have earned in the last 12 months. Later in that section, information about your employment history is requested. Employer reference and job contract are required as part of the visa application. You are trying to be too clever with the rules. Just have a normal job earning above 18,600 pa to meet government requirements. Forget about living in Ukraine.

Renting out a house can lead to problems with sitting tenents. The government requests information about a property and incliudes an overcrowding test. Land Registry and Council Tax forms are mandatory. Again, you have not read the visa rules.

You talk about 'capital gains' which suggests that you are going to sell your house to realise a financial gain. Where are you going to live? Again, the accommodation test must be considered.

These are the reasons why I worry about your financial and accommodation tests. You are making life too complicated for this process. UKVI likes people to conform to their rigid rules.

BTW Private Residence Relief on a person's property is invalid if you have ever rented out it to someone. This is why your 'renting out' idea does not work at all. HMRC is always looking to tax people, and so it will catch up with you eventually.

Most Ukrainian women will want to work in the UK due to their ambitions for the future, such as a bigger house. Remember that you are going to be a member of a team with Mrs TC. These women have a mind of their own which I view as a positive attribute.





 

Offline Blighty

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1583 on: May 22, 2018, 04:35:08 PM »
The way I interpret his posts, he is not looking for an equal.  He is searching in a poor country so he can leverage his own meager salary, and a foreign woman's lack of understanding of the economics of his culture, for his benefit. 

You may be correct with your conclusion. However, I think that he would be undone by such an approach. My wife spent months preparing to come to the UK through using the Internet. She discovered all the major retailers in advance, and asked me to take her to the local branches. She loves windows shopping (take note TC).

He would find it difficult to ensure that his future wife maintained a lack an understanding of our economics. She would soon learn about our culture, and realise she had married someone with a meager salary. She would want to work for a better standard of living.

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1584 on: May 22, 2018, 04:52:09 PM »
When I said rent I really meant Lodgers rather than Tenants and as such it would not count as a taxable property for capital gains purposes - since it is still counted as my residence. I will also be keeping a room there for myself. Possibly I will still have to be careful of overcrowding but I think it could be passable. I anticipate taking in two Lodgers most probably students as there is a large Uni nearby.

The 12 month question might be a pain but I will just have to deal with the situation as best I can with what is happening at the time. I've tried with last girl to suggest Cyprus as an easier alternative but FSU girls seem wary of any game change. So unless I get things sorted in a location like that where I can say I live I'm probably stuck with the UK situation.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1585 on: May 22, 2018, 05:08:58 PM »
You may be correct with your conclusion. However, I think that he would be undone by such an approach. My wife spent months preparing to come to the UK through using the Internet. She discovered all the major retailers in advance, and asked me to take her to the local branches. She loves windows shopping (take note TC).

He would find it difficult to ensure that his future wife maintained a lack an understanding of our economics. She would soon learn about our culture, and realise she had married someone with a meager salary. She would want to work for a better standard of living.


I'm not suggesting he won't be undone, just that this is the approach it seems he intends to use, up to and including not funding further education and dissuading a woman from anything but a menial job so that she is, in his perception, more reliant on him.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline DaveNY

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1586 on: May 22, 2018, 05:29:25 PM »
Trench is also going to have to look for a FSUW who hasn't been abroad or uses the Internet. My wife lived and worked in Germany for a few years and speaks the language. She had also traveled all over Europe, been to the US and of course to some of the favorite Russian vacation spots such as Turkey and Egypt. All of this before the Internet was common in the FSU.

Today with the Internet as soon as a FSUW knows where Trench is from in the UK she can look up his city and know all about it. If she knows his address she will soon know what his house looks like. If she finds out how much he makes she will know how well he's paid compared to his neighbors. Do a search on his name and see if he's made the news or been arrested. Perhaps find out where he went to school and university.

If she's at all Internet savvy she will quickly find out everything about him and be able to determine if he's worth dating and having a relationship with.

Offline JayH

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1587 on: May 22, 2018, 06:51:29 PM »

I'm not suggesting he won't be undone, just that this is the approach it seems he intends to use, up to and including not funding further education and dissuading a woman from anything but a menial job so that she is, in his perception, more reliant on him.

What TC has consistently done is make unrealistic,illconceived comments  across a range of issues/ . That encompasses every part of what he has said--either ignorance or an outright lie or attempt to mislead is there for all to see.

He is either completely stupid  detached individual or just plain dumb!

TC has been quite happy to lash ignorantly at those who have pointed out his failings and never concede when  he is clearly wrong..
His fundamental attitudes across a range of relevant issues and his "thinking" conclusions are all too often arse up .
His insulting attitude to women(particularly Ukrainian women),to Ukraine based on his ignorance says he deserves all the negativity aimed at him.

He is a 40 yo pudgy pom that is scared to sit in the sun ( LoL)  that thinks he is smarter than everyone else here- and in the FSU  !

Those here that think I am being harsh - you need to have read his misfit comments  and some that he has attempted to pass off as humour -- with there being nothing clever of funny in them --just offensive and insulting ignorance.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Sting23

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1588 on: May 22, 2018, 07:50:45 PM »
Not harsh at all JayH. Trench by his account says he's been trying for close to 10 years!!  He'd be better off to sell his house and move to Ukraine to teach English at this point.  All his efforts have yielded him a few dates and not much else.

With the money for flights and hotels he could have just gone to London and find an FSU girl there.  But they wouldn't be the "poor" village girls who haven't seen a big city and all that it has to offer. 

He complains about spending money but won't even look in his own backyard.  Because reality is most girls Russian or otherwise wouldn't give him the time of day.  He has said that numerous times.

Online msmob

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1589 on: May 22, 2018, 08:49:41 PM »
I've tried with last girl to suggest Cyprus as an easier alternative but FSU girls seem wary of any game change. So unless I get things sorted in a location like that where I can say I live I'm probably stuck with the UK situation.

And how would you have brought / bring in income in Cyprus? ... 

IF you are earning what you claim ... ( I seriously question the veracity of most of what you post - I believe you are bored and need something to keep you busy ) you cannot afford to be in this endeavour 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 09:10:20 PM by msmob »

Offline Jumper

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1590 on: May 22, 2018, 10:12:03 PM »
Trench is also going to have to look for a FSUW who hasn't been abroad or uses the Internet. My wife lived and worked in Germany for a few years and speaks the language. She had also traveled all over Europe, been to the US and of course to some of the favorite Russian vacation spots such as Turkey and Egypt. All of this before the Internet was common in the FSU.

Today with the Internet as soon as a FSUW knows where Trench is from in the UK she can look up his city and know all about it. If she knows his address she will soon know what his house looks like. If she finds out how much he makes she will know how well he's paid compared to his neighbors. Do a search on his name and see if he's made the news or been arrested. Perhaps find out where he went to school and university.

If she's at all Internet savvy she will quickly find out everything about him and be able to determine if he's worth dating and having a relationship with.

I agree they could and should.

But the examples I mentioned  the women are intelligent  ,beautiful 35 to 40 yo women.They knew the men needed a petitioner ,and why.
They still followed thru, and certainly not to use as a mule, one has a child with her deadbeat hubby.
  I'm not condoning the mens behaviour at all,   far from it,but I've seen time and again fsu women do  no better,in fact far worse , than they could have done in the fsu, yet stay with the guys.
Yes I've seen them cut and run as well.
Still I've seen the scenario play out often enough to think tc has a reasonable chance even with his challenges.

That doesnt mean I dont think he should change, as I think he needs to for his own happiness long term.
.

Online Trenchcoat

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1591 on: May 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM »
And how would you have brought / bring in income in Cyprus? ... 

IF you are earning what you claim ... ( I seriously question the veracity of most of what you post - I believe you are bored and need something to keep you busy ) you cannot afford to be in this endeavour

Kyn is in this endeavour on far less money than me. Like Jumper has said many guys do this venture on not a lot of money. I think because you are rich you are basing everything on that as it's all you'very got going for you. I ain't giving up on this venture at all.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1592 on: May 22, 2018, 10:21:22 PM »
kyn is a student, not a 40 year old man. 


Yes, Jumper may know some women willing to live in abusive relationships, but they are the outliers, not the norm.  It isn't even your lack of money that is your main obstacle.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1593 on: May 22, 2018, 11:28:28 PM »
Kyn is in this endeavour on far less money than me. Like Jumper has said many guys do this venture on not a lot of money. I think because you are rich you are basing everything on that as it's all you'very got going for you. I ain't giving up on this venture at all.

Firstly, I'm not rich .... and secondly, it will soon cost you 4k to get a lady in and with a UK passport - and many years of her feeling like a second class citizen - not including flights home and day to day living expenses.

Your previous posts suggest you resent spending... 

If you get find a woman at home, you won't be any different abroad.

You can only search for a good English speakers - as you'll NEVER get her it, otherwise

It is noted you ducked the question about earning money in Cyprus


Offline Jumper

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1594 on: May 22, 2018, 11:43:11 PM »
Financial issues are not the real underlying problem with the men in my examples either.

I'm shocked women will put up with such mentalities,  but they do ,in their own countries as well.
And are not just random outliers although I wish that were the case.

Thing is TC, one if the main things they might leave their country, their family their culture, and all they have ever known , Is for a better man and relationship on more equal terms.

The elephant in the room is a lot of fsu women are indeed working class, and the cultural norms and mentality is a bit more crude and backwards.(I'll take flack for this but it doesnt change the reaility of the average family life there)

Yes there are great men and husbands there as well, and successful modern women.
But dont kid yourself,one of the huge reasons any reasonable percentage will consider leaving is  for a family life with a more forward thinking man ,a more equal relationship ,and better opportunity for their children .
 A lot of what you post ,is a mentality they can easily find on any street,and  not have to leave all they know for it.

Again,your main things you *could* have going for you is being a good father, and husband by respecting her as an equal in every way.
Those things alone are actually enough, but you cant fake them, you have to *be* that person with that mentality.

.

Offline DaveNY

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1595 on: May 22, 2018, 11:58:31 PM »

The elephant in the room is a lot of fsu women are indeed working class, and the cultural norms and mentality is a bit more crude and backwards.(I'll take flack for this but it doesnt change the reaility of the average family life there)

Jumper it really depends on where the women are living as to whether or not they're working class. My wife's from Moscow and she's university educated as are most of her friends in Moscow.

If a FSUW lives out in the country with limited access to universities and even good schools she more likely to working class but if she lives in a major city far less chance she's working class. Russian women attend university in large numbers and certainly today it's expected that a RW will go to university for at least a BA/Bsc.



Offline Sting23

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1596 on: May 23, 2018, 12:32:10 AM »
Trench's problem isn't even money.  Gleaming from his personality on here I don't think I could spend 5 minutes with the guy in real life.

Wasn't there one lady he took on a date where she was so bored she left early?  Trench you gotta work on your personality and humor first.  Be a fun dude to hang with.  No one especially a lady wants a downer.  The way you interact with people even on this forum shows you gotta work on it.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1597 on: May 23, 2018, 12:34:09 AM »
Jumper it really depends on where the women are living as to whether or not they're working class. My wife's from Moscow and she's university educated as are most of her friends in Moscow.

If a FSUW lives out in the country with limited access to universities and even good schools she more likely to working class but if she lives in a major city far less chance she's working class. Russian women attend university in large numbers and certainly today it's expected that a RW will go to university for at least a BA/Bsc.

I believe you are mistaken on this, and Jumper is correct.

The former Soviet Union is formed, in large part, by the Bolsheviks, and the Bolshevik Revolution.  The vast majority of the pre Revolution nobility, of the elite, of the educated, of the successful, were either executed by the Bolsheviks or fled the country when the borders were still open.  Bolshevik ideology stated that the working class was the "revolutionary vanguard", and that meant that to enter a university, or to gain any position in the society, one had to be part of the working class.

Most positions in Soviet universities were solely for the working class, and most of the time, one needed to have belonged to the party, or komsomol, to gain entrance to university.  In Kyiv, even in the dying days of so called perestroika, there was only one college in the entire oblast' that did not require party membership.

The "working class" roots were drilled into the society daily.  That mentality is still the predominant mentality of Russians and Ukrainians today.  Were you to meet Russians who escaped the Revolution, or Ukrainians who lived in Ukraine before the communists took over, you would notice very much the differences.  They are not just differences due to a different time, it is just a very different attitude, a very different mentality, in general.  It is also why post communist Russians were never able to gain a prominent foothold in Paris, the way they did in, say, London, as many descendants of that nobility settled in Paris and France after the Revolution.  Those worlds never mixed, and the pre Revolution Russians of France view the post communist Russians as boors.

For those who were not part of the working class who had managed to escape execution, because they came from the "rotten nobility", life was hell, right up to the collapse of the USSR.  Unless they were willing to denounce their ancestors and join the party, they were denied any sort of education, even jobs.  Not one of my husbands' grandparents was working class.  His ancestors were famous academics, some were fabulously wealthy merchants, some were famous military men, some were famous artists, and one side was nobility.  If I listed their names here, every Russian would know them, they were that prominent in Russian history.  They would know the properties they owned, which are also prominent, the forts they defended, the cities they founded.  It is a miracle that one side survived, but I won't go into how that occurred.  The result?  When the Bolsheviks discovered they had failed to kill them directly, they set about attempting to do so by breaking their families, by arresting them for nothing, by denying them education, by trying (with my husband) to have him break laws so he could be jailed for a lengthy period.  His family's experience is not unique.  A few of his classmates (purposely put into his orbit) came from prominent families as well.  One was the great grandson of the Tsar's most trusted general.  The general was executed, but somehow, the entire family was not.  They were allowed to emigrate to Kyiv in the late 1960's, after being in Siberia since 1919.  My husband didn't know why the boy was so persecuted by teachers in school until he read about his family, once he moved here.  Another classmate was the great granddaughter of another prominent nobleman, also allowed to move to Kyiv from Siberia.  It was no accident they were placed in my husband's school class.  Neither these individuals, nor their siblings, had any hope of a higher education.  I could get into the experiences of my family, who are from Western Ukraine, and were peasants.

So, anyone who is now university educated pretty much came from that "working class" background.  Education really is irrelevant.  Their attitudes are still formed by the former Soviet Union.  In Russia, that is changing to an extent, but not entirely, as anyone who has encountered Russians on vacation can attest to.

Now, what Jumper means is a certain mentality, which is prominent in very many former Soviet cities.  It really has little to do with education.

I would hazard a guess if you asked what your wife's grandparents, or great grandparents, or great great grandparents did, they were probably either peasants or what the Bolsheviks would describe as "working class".


This whole concept is something that escapes most Westerners, as it is so foreign to how we live.  I may be more attuned to it, having known many Ukrainians and the odd Russian, now all deceased, who grew up before the Revolution.





« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 01:58:14 AM by Boethius »
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Offline DaveNY

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1598 on: May 23, 2018, 12:49:04 AM »
I believe you are mistaken on this, and Jumper is correct.

The former Soviet Union is formed, in large part, by the Bolsheviks, and the Bolshevik Revolution.  The vast majority of the pre Revolution nobility, of the elite, of the educated, of the successful were either executed by the Bolsheviks or fled the country when the borders were still open.  Bolshevik ideology stated that the working class was the "revolutionary vanguard", and that meant that to enter a university, or to gain any position in the society, one had to be part of the working class.

Most positions in Soviet universities were solely for the working class, and most of the time, one needed to have belonged to the party, or komsomol, to gain entrance to university.  In Kyiv, even in the dying days of so called perestroika, there was only one college in the entire oblast' that did not require party membership.

The "working class" roots were drilled into the society daily.  That mentality is still the predominant mentality of Russians and Ukrainians today.  Were you to meet Russians who escaped the Revolution, or Ukrainians who lived in Ukraine before the communists took over, you would notice very much the differences.  They are not just differences due to a different time, it is just a very different attitude, a very different mentality, in general.  It is also why Russians were never able to gain a prominent foothold in Paris, the way they did in, say, London, as may descendants of that nobility settled in Paris and France after the Revolution.

For those who were not part of the working class, because they came from the "rotten nobility", life was hell, right up to the collapse of the USSR.  Unless they were willing to denounce their ancestors and join the party, they were denied any sort of education, even jobs.  Not one of my husbands' grandparents were working class.  Some were famous academics, some were fabulously wealthy merchants, some were famous military men, some were famous artists, and one side was nobility.  If I listed their names here, every Russian would know them, they were that prominent in Russian history.  It is a miracle that one side survived, but I won't go into how that occurred.  The result?  When the Bolsheviks discovered they had failed to kill them directly, they set about attempting to do so by breaking their families, by arresting them for nothing, by denying them education, by trying (with my husband) to have him break laws so he could be jailed for a lengthy period.  His family's experience is not unique.  A few of his classmates (purposely put into his orbit) came from prominent families as well.  One was the great grandson of the Tsar's most trusted generals.  His family was allowed to emigrate to Kyiv in the late 1960's, after being in Siberia since 1919.  My husband didn't know why the boy was so persecuted by teachers in school until he read about his family here.  Another was the great granddaughter of another prominent nobleman, also allowed to move to Kyiv from Siberia.  It was no accident they were placed in my husband's school class.  All of these individuals had no hope of a higher education.

So, anyone who is now university educated pretty much came from that "working class" background.  Education really is irrelevant.  Their attitudes are still formed by the former Soviet Union.

Now, what Jumper means is a certain mentality, which is prominent in very many former Soviet cities.  It really has little to do with education.


I would hazard a guess if you asked what your wife's grandparents, or great grandparents, or great great grandparents did, they were probably either peasants or what the Bolsheviks would describe as "working class".

Boethius now you're getting into the difference between the meaning of "working class" in Russia and the US. Since Jumper's American I figure he's using the American meaning - "the social group consisting of people who are employed for wages, especially in manual or industrial work" (from Wikipedia).

If you want to talk about the Soviet meaning of "working class" and the Bolsheviks that's entirely different and probably a thread on its own. Even today in Russia some Russians my wife's age and older can spend the entire evening drinking and talking about the Bolsheviks and the Revolution. I swear there must have been required university courses on this to hear them go on and on about it.


Offline Boethius

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Re: Trench's Questions and Philosophies
« Reply #1599 on: May 23, 2018, 12:54:02 AM »
No, from what he was posting, I believe Jumper was referring to the Ukrainian working class, and their understanding of that term.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 12:56:17 AM by Boethius »
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