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Author Topic: Is Putin a dictator for life? and should ML attack every single Russian girl?  (Read 3851 times)

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Offline msmob

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Well someone please help me in selecting which of my posts I should be reading.

So far I have been accused of personally attacking RW by 3 people, but none can refer me to my words that do such.

Advising someone of the potential problems they may encounter is not attacking.

ML - the interesting 'fact' is that 3 of us think that way and I alluded to the person you attacked and the thread - hence 'selective reading ?'

Don't be obtuse ! ;)

Offline DaveNY

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Don't know how true this is, I have been told by more than a few Russians that a few years after the Maastricht Treaty was established there was serious talk within the Russian government of Russia applying to join the EU.

The EU might have even allowed it despite all of Russia's problems. The advantages of having Russia in the EU are many. It would have meant an enlargement of the EU population by about 140 million people. An EU that stretched all the way to the Pacific with natural resources that dwarfed those of the US.

Disadvantages are of course a weak Russian economy along with human rights abuses and a chronic system of political corruption. However, the real veto of Russia joining the EU was from of all places the US and to a much lesser extent the Baltic States.

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A dictator has total control. Putin stepped down in the Prime Minister role and allowed Mevedev to hold the highest title in Russia for awhile but still pulling most the strings. No dictator would allow anybody but himself on the throne. One of the reasons I don't believe Putin is a true dictator.
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Offline Belvis

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One of the reasons I don't believe Putin is a true dictator.

I would look at this from another point. Is Putin true dictator or not is the question that does not concern Russians. I'm pretty sure Putin could rule as a tsar till his passing because of popular support (though he has in plans to go into legislative activity after 2024). The discussed points which make him look like a dictator in eyes of Westerners bring him the support inside Russia.
I can illustrate the appoach of Russians roughly in the following way. Russia and Ukraine are the states with similar background, similar level of economics at starting point of USSR demise and very close culture and mentality.  Crucial difference lays in how these states are ruled, democracy in pure form in Ukraine vs so called dictatorship in Russia. Then they compare the results of state developments by the present time, and vote for Putin of course.
Then, Putin as a true or not dictator can be the problem for West, not for Russians.

Offline msmob

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..or rather for the Russians who want an active opposition / accountability ? ..

Offline Belvis

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..or rather for the Russians who want an active opposition / accountability ? ..

The electoral percentage of Russians who want an active opposition / accountability as the first priority is well below 10% according to vote results or public surveys. They are concentrated within Moscow mainly.

Offline msmob

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..and you believe those results ?!

Offline Belvis

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..and you believe those results ?!
I believe any spiritual belief requires confirmation  8) 

Online 2tallbill

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Not all Putin's competitors are jailed.  He faced 3 opponents in the 2012 presidential election, and will face more in 2018.

So in your mind all his opponents must be jailed? or he doesn't get
a check mark on one side of the ledger?

The press is not totally controlled.  Television is totally controlled by the Russian government.

He controls the press and has his biggest critics killed or jailed,
but you are saying that he doesn't do this 100%? So therefore
doesn't get a check mark in the ledger.



1. Not all his positions become law, either. 
2. Look at debates in the Duma.  There is debate there,
and at time, they descend into fistfights. 
3. He has opponents who are never investigated, such as
Zhirinovsky and Grudinin.

4. Protests are not illegal.  They have to be registered.
5. I don't know if he has billions of dollars stashed away. 
6. But look at your own political system.   

Dictatorship means absolute power over unwilling subjects. 
If you examine all criteria, by that definition, Putin is not a dictator.   
He is probably, however, authoritarian.

1. Name one of his decisions that didn't become law

2. None of the fist fight debates are about enacting or
not enacting Putin's decisions.

3. A few of Putin's political adversaries aren't jailed and
you are trying to use that as a point?

4. There is free assembly in the Russian constitution and
yet NOW all assemblies must be approved first and guess
what? They don't get approved if they are opposition protests.

5. You don't know? others know.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/31/financier-bill-browder-says-vladimir-putin-is-worth-200-billion.html

http://fortune.com/2017/07/29/vladimir-putin-russia-jeff-bezos-bill-gates-worlds-richest-man/

6. Others do it too argument?

My argument is that Putin has many check marks on the dictator side
of the ledger. He has some check marks on the popular politician side
of the ledger as well. The dictator side has many more.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Offline fathertime

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6. Others do it too argument?


Isn't this line of argumentation a little silly, considering it is one of your favorite arguments when it comes to Trump, (Obama or Hillary) do it too! 

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Online BillyB

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I'm pretty sure Putin could rule as a tsar till his passing because of popular support (though he has in plans to go into legislative activity after 2024).


Putin cares about Russians think about him. He cares about his legacy and how the history books will record him. He cares about his rule being legal. If he continues to rule Russia after the next two terms is over he will do it only if the law is changed to allow him to server more terms or he will do it behind another president.
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Online southernX

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Quote
2 tall bill ..My argument is that Putin has many check marks on the dictator side
of the ledger. He has some check marks on the popular politician side
of the ledger as well. The dictator side has many more.

totally agree by all indicators he is a dictator

Quote
Putin cares about Russians think about him.

he cares about his image , not really what the average russian thinks about him imo

Quote
He cares about his legacy and how the history books will record him

yes  and he wants to be seen as a great leader who made strong choices to make russia great

Quote
If he continues to rule Russia after the next two terms is over he will do it only if the law is changed to allow him to server more terms or he will do it behind another president.

he will change the law once he is elected this year to make it legal , possibly even cite china as an example of why he should follow suit in russia

SX




Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Offline Boethius

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So in your mind all his opponents must be jailed? or he doesn't get a check mark on one side of the ledger?


I was responding to your assertion that all Putin's competitors are in jail.
Quote
He controls the press and has his biggest critics killed or jailed, but you are saying that he doesn't do this 100%? So therefore doesn't get a check mark in the ledger.

No, IMHO, he doesn't get a check mark as a dictator.

Quote
1. Name one of his decisions that didn't become law

The president doesn't make the law in Russia.  The Duma does, and if you've watched debates there, it is not monolithic.  A dictatorship would be.

Frankly, I have always believed that there are powers behind Putin making the real decisions.  Putin doesn't strike me as bright enough to guide the policies being implemented.  I believe he is a figurehead.

Quote
None of the fist fight debates are about enacting or not enacting Putin's decisions.

The debates in the Duma are in fact, about enacting legislation.

Quote
3. A few of Putin's political adversaries aren't jailed and you are trying to use that as a point?

See above re responding to your post. 

Quote
4. There is free assembly in the Russian constitution and yet NOW all assemblies must be approved first and guess what? They don't get approved if they are opposition protests.

Some states have enacted such laws as well.

http://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/rights-protesters/anti-protest-bills-around-country
Quote
5. You don't know? others know.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/31/financier-bill-browder-says-vladimir-putin-is-worth-200-billion.html

http://fortune.com/2017/07/29/vladimir-putin-russia-jeff-bezos-bill-gates-worlds-richest-man/

They don't KNOW.  That is speculation on their part.

Quote
6. Others do it too argument?

No, that is not what I am saying at all.  What I am saying is that this may be an indication of corruption, which seems to be spreading among politicians in the West, as well, but it is not proof of a dictatorship.

Quote
My argument is that Putin has many check marks on the dictator side of the ledger. He has some check marks on the popular politician side of the ledger as well. The dictator side has many more.

I know.  I just disagree that he is a dictator.  I would agree were you to assert his time in office (both PM and president) has resulted in Russia becoming more authoritarian.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 02:58:12 AM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online Trenchcoat

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I'm just worried how all of this assassinations of our spies is going to affect my FSW dating chances this year. I do hope it won't get in the way and I'll be welcomed through customs as a genuine western male dater and not a potential spy :o
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Offline DaveNY

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The president doesn't make the law in Russia.  The Duma does, and if you've watched debates there, it is not monolithic.  A dictatorship would be.

Frankly, I have always believed that there are powers behind Putin making the real decisions.  Putin doesn't strike me as bright enough to guide the policies being implemented.  I believe he is a figurehead.


I don't see how Putin could be a figurehead? I've never heard of anyone or any group of people that have been around for the last 18 years who could be powerful enough to dominate Putin yet remain hidden from the prying eyes of the western intelligence agencies? After 20 years in the shadows if such a person or persons existed some intelligence agency or news organization would have found them and revealed them to the world.

Putin has a law degree so he understands the basics of Russian law. He was a colonel in the KGB so he would also know how to lead and delegate. Add in experience gained from years in power and Putin knows who to trust to fulfill whatever agenda he plans. Just because he has a cadre of trusted lieutenants doesn't mean he isn't a dictator. Even a dictator needs help with the paperwork and making sure his orders are carried out.

Putin does at times appear to be cartoonish at times by western standards. Such as riding a horse while barechested but from what I've seen while in Russia these PR stunts usually go over well with the Russian people. The stunts tend to show off Putin's virility, his manliness. A physically weak man, such as FDR in a wheelchair, could never be president of Russia in the current Russia culture.   

Offline Boethius

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There was a KGB general during Putin’s years as PM who was purported to be the brains behind Russia. I knew his name years ago, but it escapes me now. Certainly,  the former KGB took control of the country from Yeltsin. I suspect they are still making most policy. If you know your Russian history, you can see when they’ve been combing the pre Revolution archives.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 10:59:13 PM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline DaveNY

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There was a KGB general that during Putin’s years as PM who was purported to be the brains behind Russia. I knew his name years ago, but it escapes me now. Certainly,  the former KGB took control of the country from Yeltsin.

I suspect they are still making most policy. If you know your Russian history, you can see when they’ve been combing the pre Revolution archives.

Boethius do you know how big the FSB is? According to Wikipedia, "The FSB employs about 66,200 uniformed staff, including about 4,000 special forces troops. It also employs about 160,000–200,000 border guards" I have no doubt the Federal Security Service (FSB in Russian)  is run by its current director Alexander Bortnikov (according to Wikipedia). Even though Putin, was at one time in charge of the FSB, it would be impossible for him to be informed of everything that happens in the FSB and all of the other government ministries. After all Putin can't do everything and be everywhere. However, just because the FSB is run by its management team doesn't mean Putin isn't a dictator.

Putin is simply taking their advice on matters that relate to the FSB and then he makes a decision. However the FSB does the daily running of the FSB. Just as Putin takes advice from the Ministry of Defense in areas that concern the Ministry of Defense. Dictators still need a management team to run a country.

Online BillyB

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I've never heard of anyone or any group of people that have been around for the last 18 years who could be powerful enough to dominate Putin yet remain hidden from the prying eyes of the western intelligence agencies? After 20 years in the shadows if such a person or persons existed some intelligence agency or news organization would have found them and revealed them to the world.


Over many decades people have speculated there is a person or persons that is/are in charge of a World leader. Many times I've heard of these people are in control of our own presidents and will form a New World Order. Presidents come, go and die and I'm sure those mysterious people in charge are dead too. Their dream of a New World Order never materializes and they never received recognition for running their country or the World's economy. They all have two things in common. They are in charge of people who are in charge and nobody has ever discovered who they are.

Today, our intelligence agencies intercept so many calls from World leaders, if there were anybody over known leaders heads, they would've been found out. Other countries spies who's turned would've reported who those super secret people are to us. Hasn't happened since there's nobody to report. I'm with you on this one Dave.
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Offline msmob

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Putin cares about Russians think about him. He cares about his legacy and how the history books will record him. He cares about his rule being legal. If he continues to rule Russia after the next two terms is over he will do it only if the law is changed to allow him to server more terms or he will do it behind another president.

Ah, BillyB - you 'know' him so well - you've clearly got each others' WhatsApp  ;)


Offline Boethius

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Boethius do you know how big the FSB is? According to Wikipedia, "The FSB employs about 66,200 uniformed staff, including about 4,000 special forces troops. It also employs about 160,000–200,000 border guards" I have no doubt the Federal Security Service (FSB in Russian)  is run by its current director Alexander Bortnikov (according to Wikipedia). Even though Putin, was at one time in charge of the FSB, it would be impossible for him to be informed of everything that happens in the FSB and all of the other government ministries. After all Putin can't do everything and be everywhere. However, just because the FSB is run by its management team doesn't mean Putin isn't a dictator.

Putin is simply taking their advice on matters that relate to the FSB and then he makes a decision. However the FSB does the daily running of the FSB. Just as Putin takes advice from the Ministry of Defense in areas that concern the Ministry of Defense. Dictators still need a management team to run a country.

I’m not referring to the FSB. I am referring to the analytical division of the KGB, which researched and established policies, and even chose the CPSU party secretary in the USSR. Among them was a select elite of officers.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 05:34:02 PM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline msmob

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The president doesn't make the law in Russia.  The Duma does

Ple-EASe, Boethius

I don't understand all the nuances of the conversations - but even I recognise that the Duma is a sham.

The Communists have their say and Zhironovsky entertains - but certain subjects - foreign policy - seem to get little debate and if one strays from the nationalist line ( Crimea) you are suddenly yet another corrupt politician ..(

Offline Boethius

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I suspect relatively few Russians have issues with the invasion of Crimea, both inside and outside the political sphere. As I have posted previously, it was acquired with a lot of Russian blood.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline msmob

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I suspect relatively few Russians have issues with the invasion of Crimea, both inside and outside the political sphere. As I have posted previously, it was acquired with a lot of Russian blood.

You are - of course correct re the sentiment on Crimea - given the imminent threat from the 'Nazi Junta'....

I'm presuming you meant Crimea being acquired in the 18th - as the only blood lost was Ukrainian, this time ?


Offline Boethius

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Yes, I mean historically.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

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