Detective agencies

[Gef]

I remember about 5 years ago, on some list that I no longer remember, an ongoing discussion concerning the use of detective agencies to check the backgrounds of a future bride or whatever. I recall that there were some very good arguements on both sides, pro and con. However, a lot has happened since then and attitudes and perspectives do change. I am hoping to get another exchange of opinians going again. Anyone like to comment or share an experience?

[Admin]

I remember about 5 years ago, on some list that I no longer remember, an ongoing discussion concerning the use of detective agencies to check the backgrounds of a future bride or whatever. I recall that there were some very good arguementson both sides, pro and con. However,a lot has happened since then and attitudes and perspectives do change. I am hoping to get another exchange of opinians going again. Anyone like to comment or share an experience?

Gef,

Some years back, I was seriously considering this as a possible business opportunity. Because I was traveling there often, I had (and still have) quite a number of business and government contacts whom I spoke with about the prospects.

Because of my own legal difficulties, some of which reached into my activities in Ukraine, I have not been able to write openly about some of this until now.

My contacts in Ukraine include government officials (both pre and post-Orange Revolution), senior members of the Kyiv militsia, and a few people in the military.

Here is what I learned:

* First, let's take a hypothetical of the information most guys would seek. Here is my assumption of the types of information:
- Basic demographics - is her age, residence, education, place of work, marital status - all as represented.
- Character and background - does she have a higher education, any criminal record or dealings, is she a prostitute, does she have a boyfriend on the side, has she led a moral life, and so on.
- Medical history - does she have AIDS or other STD, has she ever had an abortion, etc.

OK, so here are some of the fundamental problems:

* Computerized record-keeping is still rare in the FSU. Medical records, as an example, simply do not exist in a form or format that is easily retrievable - and often, they are not kept at all.
* Any central records are the purview of the government and are ONLY available to government authorities.
* Former KGB (now SBU in Ukraine - http://www.sbu.gov.ua/eng/) are the only official authorities who are allowed to access such records, and they protect their monopoly very strongly. Not to suggest one cannot penetrate this barrier - but it is unpredictable and expensive.

So the first problem to be overcome is the lack of information, or the lack of a central repository, or the protection of that information by government authorities. There is no way to overcome the fact that records are often not kept at all - and the other impediments make it exceptionally difficult and time-consuming for anyone trying to retrieve information.

OK, so let's assume reliable background information is going to be largely absent.

A PI could, conceivably, 'tail' the girl to gather information. In doing so, it *is* possible they will gain some insights into the girl's normal day-to-day activities. Does she frequent a nightclub or see a boyfriend on a daily basis - or, maybe she attends school regularly and comes home to her parents house and only goes out to walk the dog.

That information is possible to pay for - but at a substantial price. For it to be reliable, two factors MUST be in alignment - the PI must have spent sufficient time to be able to establish a pattern - AND - the PI *must* be honest and forthright about what he/she witnessed and discovered.

The problem one faces is not knowing the character of the PI being engaged. One must remember that many of these guys are either drawn to this business because they have an unnatural interest in spy novels, or they are former members of the intelligence arm of the government. I've met both in Ukraine.

In either case, one MUST think about THEIR motives. Remember that the FSU is a world apart from western culture - and most importantly, anything can be bought with enough money.

There are accounts of PI's who did basically nothing to gather ANY information about the girl - but then went to the girl and told her he had been engaged by her western suitor and wanted a payoff in return for a 'clean' report to be provided back to the guy.

In the final analysis, I passed on this as a potential business opportunity (providing a background investigation service) - though I continue to believe there is a pretty substantial market for the services. The reason I passed on it was the inability to gather reliable information - and the fact that formal government authorities made it known they would vigorously resist any incursion by others into the information gathering 'busines.' Notably, the fact I was a foreigner made little difference, except that the vigorous resistance probably would have been even more forceful for Ukrainian citizens.

So . . . for the consumer of such services, you MUST consider the issues outlined above. While it is possible to gather some amount of information, you have no assurance of the credibility of the information given back to you, as an unscrupulous PI can fabricate anything - bad or good. Also, and maybe MOST importantly, do you really want to subject a possible love interest (and her family) to the scrutiny and potential downside (which is substantial, indeed) of exposure to a potentially unscrupulous PI?

All in all, I think this is a poor choice of options to gather information about a love interest. Far better to make the investment of TIME IN-COUNTRY with her, and in that way, you draw your own conclusions based on first-hand experience.

Just my take on things. FWIW

- Dan

[Wayne]

If you are looking to find out if some basic information is correct, you can do the following:  Arrange to have flowers and some small gifts delivered to the girl.  If she has a child, something for them.  If you use an agency to email the girl, chose a different agency or tour guide to bring the presents.  Have them take photographs of the presents with the girl.  This way you can see if the address, telephone number and other information is correct.  Does the girl look like the photographs in her profile or the ones she emailed you?  Is her age correct?  What does her apartment look like?  Have the person delivering the presents ask certain questions.

This method is fairly cost effective for the amount of information you can receive.

Another tip, use search engines such as Yahoo, etc. to search the girls name.  Sometimes, several profiles could show up, as FSU girls tend to put their real, full name in the profile.  If she has several profiles, carefully read the information she put listed to see if it is consistant.  You can also type in her first name and the name of the city and do a search.  If there are too many results, you can add her age or other information to narrow down the search. 

If you find any lies in the information she gave you, you might consider dropping her or actually hiring that investigator. 

For example, there is a Svetlana that I was involved with.  It turned out she does not always tell the truth.  Now, she has several profiles where she lists her age and year of birth as several years younger, and her height as several inches taller.  Also, Svetlana is an Artist and she is quite talented.  I had several art shows in America of her work and sold some of the pieces.  I still have many of her works.  Now, I fould Svetlana's web site where she has photographs of her drawings and paintings along with the price for each.  Funny thing is--many of the pieces are in my home and do not belong to Svetlana, as I already paid her for them.  Now tell me, how does she intend to send someone the art work?  Perhaps this woman is turning into a corrupt business person. 

 

 

 

 

 

[BC]

Flowers and gifts with photo.. oldest trick in the books.

The most I ever did with these detectives is do a reverse telephone number check so I could send her a postcard when I only knew her home telephone number.

They did however confirm residence and who else was registered at the same flat.

Back then it was around 30 bucks.

Dan is right.. in country time counts.

[RacerX]

Elena Garrett ( http://www.russian-detective.com/ ) has been recommended as someone to use for background checks.

One agency I knew several years ago said they used the "babushka-network" to learn almost everything about a prospective girl.  Simply put, a Russian friend, or a representative from an agency walks around the girl's apartment and talks to all the babushkas who  frequent the nearby the benches. They seem to see and know everything 

[BC]

RacerX

Yep that's the one I used.

At least back then did what they said they would do to a 't'.

..and no I don't work with them

[anono]

or you guys could just pay me a lot of money and my travel expenses if outside of kiev and i'll go see if i can nail her.

[catzenmouse]

or you guys could just pay me a lot of money and my travel expenses if outside of kiev and i'll go see if i can nail her.

That's just what a guy would need... you trying to nail his "girlfriend"!

Happy Hunting!

Ken

[Maxx]

I have used Elena Garrett's detective service a few times during my divorce of my Russian wife. I had gotten some reports in with information that only I knew. Little detail information that I had no reason to tell anyone. So I knew that Elena's detectives were not making things up. Below is a story I prepared. It begins with some background information and then the Detective's report of a conversation with an Agency interpreter:

I wrote this story a while back. It is about a poor guy who declaired an engagement ring and got stiffed with a $1000 import tax. 
 
I get picked up by a marriage agency owner in Moscow at SVOII and brought to Domidavo (sp of course) airport. He arrainged the buying of the tickets and so on. This guy tells me this story about how he comes to the SVO airport to pick up an American man. This guy is sitting in a chair like he just lost his best friend. The agency owner asks him "What happened?". The guy preceeds to tell him "I filled out the declarations form claiming a diamond ring and said the cost was $3000 and then customs said I must pay a $1000 tax. I said I wouldn't and they took my passport away from me and the ring" So the agency owner goes and talks to customs. He comes back and says to the guy "Will you be willing to spend $300 to get your passport back and the ring?" The guy says "But it is $1000" "No" says the agency owner "we can do it for $300" So the agency owner gets $300 from the guy and returns with his passport and ring. He explains that customs took the $300 and ripped up the declarations form and handed the passport and ring to the agency owner.
 
I later heard from the interpreter that I was friends with that there was this guy who had a fallen out with his lady and found a wife from Panama instead. She showed me a man's picture with his beautiful Panamanian wife. I found out later this was the same guy with the ring. I never told this story to anyone.
 
Some time goes by and my detectives are hot at work (upon advice from my divorce attorney) checking the scams in and around my then Russian wife who I was divorcing. I am getting these reports then suddenly one comes in. It is about the guy with the ring. Again I had never told this story to anyone.
 
My woman detective was talking to the agency translator that had talked to me. Of course the translator did not know she was being probed by this beautiful Russian MOB detective. 
 
This is the actual report straight from Elena Garrett of http://www.Russian-Detective.com (She used initials instead of "Terp" and "RW Detective") 
 
Terp: (pointing at a picture of a guy and a girl on the last page of the album) "This one is American, but it did not work out for them, so that's why they are in the back of the album. She was... she is really messed up in her head!" (Note from Maxx: This is my ex-wife she is talking about)
 
RW Detective: "So generally they are great guys, better than the ladies they write to?"
 
Terp: "Some got it real good. One was corresponding to a RW but he *brought* the wife from Panama"
[ From Elena Garrett: I am not sure what this supposed to mean]
(Note from Maxx: I do. It's the guy the Terp told me about, *brought" meaning; "got a wife from Panama instead")
 
Terp continues: "He was just pure angel. He asked her to marry him, gave her a small ring. I was so happy for them. She was jumping up and down: "Oh it is so great, it is so great!" Then he went home, we are riding back in the bus, and she is telling me: "The ring is stupid, so small, like he could not buy a bigger one!" And so on..."
 
RW Detective: "I do not think she loved him"
 
Terp: "But what was I supposed to do? I couldn't just tell him about it. (Note from Maxx: She couldn't say anything to me at the time I was being scammed either  ) Then he came a second time, brought her a brilliant this big (shows), I've only seen one like this on some girls here. Where could she wear it? After that he came three more times. That he started suspecting something. He tells her: "Let's buy an apartment" she is living in a dorm-like house somewhere on the 3rd Dachaya and there were all those drug addicts. But she didn't want to. She told me she is probably hooked up with on the hook with some mafia guys. I am thinking to myself - what freaking mafia? Maybe she does have a guy, but for a totally different relationship. After that there was that notebook. He left his notebook with her so he wouldn't have to carry it back and forth and she never returned him the notebook. After that was the credit card with $10000 on it. She cashed the money. She had some bad relationship with her mother. She tried to convince her mother that tthe things needed to be returned. She was pretty though. I always liked her" (Terp showed her picture).      
 
So....
 
1) Declare anything in customs and expect to pay a stiff import tax even on an engagement ring.
2) Know that an expensive wedding ring can make your lady a target.
3) This is Russia or wherever. An AM never knows exactly what is going on behind the scenes.
 
Maxx

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The ability to gather inside information is that the local detectives of the particular city have friends and former colleagues from their past employment that can help them cut through the red tape.  

I see two good uses for detectives

1) To gather information that can be useful in a divorce or annullment. As example if a woman was in a common law marriage to a man during her engagement and/or marriage the AM husband could sue for an anullment. I know of one such case where this has happened.

2) A man has substantial feelings, time and money invested into a woman. He sees a red flag that he cannot ignor. So rather than giving her the pass and wondering if he made the big mistake of his life and hurt her he hires a detective to discretely investigate the cause of the red flag. I know one guy who was told by another RW that his fiancee was still involved with her ex-husband and had a young boyfriend on the side. He had a hard to believing it. The people from the other board said it was just the detective agency making things up about her and working for the informant. The truth was the detective sent photos to the guy of his fiancee sitting on her boyfriend's lap and kissing him. Also records of her checking herself into a hotel with her ex-husband. He dumped with a "Goodbye special of 12 Yellow roses" delivered to her mother's house and a note (probably a few photos  too!) He never wondered after that that he made a correct decision.   

Maxx

   

[Gef]

You certainly cleared up some doubts I had about the whole idea but I didn't realize personal info was so inaccessable. I figured the dishonest part was true, how can you check on them?  Now I would like to take your advice one step further concerning spending time with the lady in question. Numerous visits will do little good if you ignore that soft voice in the back of your mind, otherwise called instinct. Like the twit that I was, I did just that several years ago. I visited a girl in Donetsk 3 times with a nagging doubt that all was not as it seemed. I wasted some money but most regretably, I wasted my time. Unless you're a paronoid or very insecure, I would urge anyone that is just venturing into this internet dating to listen to yourself and go with your instincts. If something feels off, it probably is. Run away! There are still plenty of opportunities elsewhere, don't waste your time. Fortunately I cut my losses before I got in deep so I got off easy. On the plus side I've learned to trust my instincts. In one week I am off to visit a fine lady that so far feels right. So far...

[TigerPaws]

 Far more men need to do just that "When something, anything feels wrong" cut your losses and move on, there are many more fine ladies in the FSU.

[anono]

3) This is Russia or wherever. An AM never knows exactly what is going on behind the scenes.

it is "us" and "them" over here. deception is a way of life to these people. while we generally think someone is telling the truth, these people insist everything is a lie.

they look at americans as simple people and take advantage

we think we know what's going on and that's why it is so easy to take avantage..

 

[Maxx]

Reading my story as I understood it and then getting the detective's added information was a revelation to me. There is so much intrigue going on at these agencies and with these MOB women. As example my woman detective actually the one before her went to the agency. There ahead of her where 3 other women waiting their turn to thank the agency owner and give him gifts for forwarding men to them. And this is one of those respectable agencies that practice good customer service and make sure there are no money disputes. Yet they line up the GCGs like bullets in a revolver. I would never trust what I see on the surface.

Maxx

 

 

 

  

[catzenmouse]

Reading my story as I understood it and then getting the detective's added information was a revelation to me. There is so much intrigue going on at these agencies and with these MOB women. As example my woman detective actually the one before her went to the agency. There ahead of her where 3 other women waiting their turn to thank the agency owner and give him gifts for forwarding men to them. And this is one of those respectable agencies that practice good customer service and make sure there are no money disputes. Yet they line up the GCGs like bullets in a revolver. I would never trust what I see on the surface.

Maxx  

The agency owner (where I met Elena) demanded from her, and again later from me, a $300 bride price. Swearing up and down that it was in some contract that Elena signed. I told her to present this contract (in the original form so that I could verify that it was an original signature and not some clone from something else she signed) and I would gladly pay this fee. I asked for this a half dozen times at least. Here is it a year later and "SURPRISE" no contract.

Ken

[whitecap54]

I used Elena Garrett earlier this year to check out a lady and she did a fantastic job for a good price!

[Shadow]

I was going over the topic of background checks with my girl the other day. Her comment was 'there is no way they can find out anything'.

Why ? First of all if the house is rented, is could be very well that they are not officially registered on this address. Or if the house is theirs, they might rent it and others will be registered at the same address. Once my girl looked up the phone directory and saw a different name under her address and phone number.

Check out the work ? Impossible. If you call an employer in Russia, they might be worried this has something to do with official business. He will deny anyone of this name is working there, even if he is sitting opposite the person asked for.

Official records are not reliable. Work and phone books are neither. The only thing left is following a person. And that is not cheap. 

Remember that your woman is not living in a society where everything is registered in computers and people strive to do things the official way.

[whitecap54]

Thanks Shadow...interesting!