Photos of ex(s)

[Fashionista]

Anyway, my take on this issue is that it's a very personal one, and every couple has to approach it their own way as there is no clear right or wrong answer.  

Thank you groov .   This is precisely my opinion, no right or wrong answers, if there is a mutual understanding in the family, then it’s all good. But I had to present another perspective, tongue in cheek perhaps  , didn’t mean to cause this public outrage  
To some extent understanding can be reached through reasoning, but often not.  Negative feelings can be bottled up of couse, but sooner or later they will backfire.

Denial of what?  If husband keeps photos of his ex(es) in a box in his study, and wife knows and is okay with it; what is she in denial of, precisely?

She is not. If both are OK with that, it’s very good, there is an understanding in the family, and that’s where it all starts. IMO, confidence in each other grows from mutual understanding, not the other way around. Any amount of confidence will be shattered by the lack of understanding, when people inevitably hurt each other, and that is a problem.  It`s not "her" problem, it`s not "his" problem, but it`s "their" problem
As for the “denial” word, read my answer to Wiz.

because it preserves a bit of the past, and memories ,and it's  a very basic human need.

AJ
I generally like your posts, they are balanced and show you as a person, who can accept other points of views, but I have to disagree on this one. Keeping pictures isn’t a basic need. If it was, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Eating or sleeping are, but not keeping pictures. Do you think I’d refuse a person a right to sleep?  
 
I see that you feel very strongly about that, and it’s fine. It’s your life, your feelings, but when you try to rationalize them, this basic need doesn’t ring a bell to me. I can easily parry your attempts to prove why your feelings are so important by saying: if your memories are so important to you, why do you need pictures at all.  I remember everything important from when I was 5 yo. Or maybe not important but things that affected me a great deal.

I will not however do that, or we`ll be arguing forever, and this is the last thing I want. What I’d like to emphasize though is that you have strong feelings, and someone else has strong feelings (about pictures etc). In the end it`s just a feeling, so do you think that your feelings are more mature (less mature, medium mature), then somebody else`s feelings? How do you know that? Is there a manual on which feeling is mature, and which one is not?

Good luck with your LOW self esteem!

Gee wiz
What was it in my post that caused so much distress? My math professor once said, if you want to understand a statement, you should read each and every word of it, not just the ones you like. Clearly, we had different math professors. I never said ``having high self esteem is being in denial``. I said   UNCONDITIONAL high self-esteem, as in UNSUBSTANTIATED by REAL LIFE accomplishments. I`ll put it in caps since you seem to believe that it enhances comprehension. I was raised in an environment, where nobody paid attention to self esteem as a goal. The goal was centred on achievements. Self esteem can be a nice bonus, but was never a goal. One can always achieve the self esteem by bypassing achievements and lowering personal expectations, and that isn't very hard now, is it? That is all I said. It was never directed at you, I don`t know you, I don’t`know what you achieved in life, I don`t know what your self esteem is like, and seeing how you lashed at me for no particular reason, I don’t care for any of that. I hope that clears my point. If not, that`s the best I can do.

I'm not exactly sure if there's a distinct difference between westerners and easterners when it comes to finding value in romanticizing aspects of their past. Would you say Russians are not as sentimental as say, (North) Americans? If the answer is yes, maybe that's where the difference in perspective lie.
 

GQ, thank you for the nice post, and not trying to hang me high, even though you disagree with me.   I can`t really say if Russians are more or less sentimental. I can say that I`m probably less sentimental, than you are, but that`s as far as my generalizations go.   The whole idea of unconditional love is foreign to me, can`t say I can relate. I wish you to find a person, who is your soul mate, Russian or American, and then the necessity of explaining every little thing to each other will not exist.

[GQBlues]

I can say that I`m probably less sentimental, than you are, but that`s as far as my generalizations go.   The whole idea of unconditional love is foreign to me, can`t say I can relate. I wish you to find a person, who is your soul mate, Russian or American, and then the necessity of explaining every little thing to each other will not exist.

Thanks for the well wishes and a great response...

But in the interest of the OP, allow me to indulge with you a bit of a hypothesis...

Keeping the quoted statement above in mind - what if we found ourselves deliriously and madly in love with one another - yet still be so strong in our respective convictions as above; what do you propose as an equitable solution to enable us to progress from this point forward?

Will your convictions be so strong that you would abandon all others?

From a mirror, the answer for me will be 'yes'. For the simple reason that we have yet to create a history.

Now you....

Will yours be so unwavering despite the journey into the unknown (unconditional love) yet an inviting opportunity to experience with someone you hold so dear nonetheless?..

[wiz]

Gee wiz

What was it in my post that caused so much distress? My math professor once said, if you want to understand a statement, you should read each and every word of it, not just the ones you like. Clearly, we had different math professors. I never said ``having high self esteem is being in denial``. I said   UNCONDITIONAL high self-esteem, as in UNSUBSTANTIATED by REAL LIFE accomplishments. I`ll put it in caps since you seem to believe that it enhances comprehension. I was raised in an environment, where nobody paid attention to self esteem as a goal. The goal was centred on achievements. Self esteem can be a nice bonus, but was never a goal. One can always achieve the self esteem by bypassing achievements and lowering personal expectations, and that isn't very hard now, is it? That is all I said. It was never directed at you, I don`t know you, I don’t`know what you achieved in life, I don`t know what your self esteem is like, and seeing how you lashed at me for no particular reason, I don’t care for any of that. I hope that clears my point. If not, that`s the best I can do.

Let me assure you that you have not stressed me at all, just found your comments attaly rubbish when you imply that : "Having unconditional high self esteem is a form of denial"

Well first off, high self esteem isnt something to congratulate yourself with. The other word for unconditional high self-esteem is denial. After many year of hearing mantras about self esteem here in north America I'm finally starting to get close to understanding what behind it and where it comes from, but that's another conversation.

BTW That is what you said and I would appreciate anybody else than you to explain to me what exactly you meant when you made this comment and not your different now explanation, when you realised your mistake!
You see my English comprehension is very poor so I need the help to undertand what you are talking about!

Finally I did not take your comments personally, I just disputed your views but the last part of your post is nothing more than an evasive tactick not to admit your mistake.

Never mind I have seen people with such views before and I know how they react when their views are disputed and proven to be wrong.

  

[BillyB]

Realistically, anyone jealous of some old photos of Ex's at the bottom of a box buried 7ft deep in the back of a closet needs to reflect on how silly that is and why they feel that way. Out of respect to my wife, those photos are in a box god knows where....
Out of sight, out of mind.

Docetae for the most part is happy with his wife based on his postings and attitude. What is normal behavior for a wife when it comes to photos of old ex's/girlfriends? Indirectly some people are insinuting Docetae's wife is silly, immature, and has low self esteem when in fact Docetae's wife may have reacted in a way most women would act.

UTRO, if it's silly for a wife to be jealous of photos of ex's, then why out of respect for the wife do you and other men keep these photos away from the wife in a secret location? Truth is no matter how strong one wants to claim their wife is, deep down they know photos of ex's does affect the wife.

I've got plenty of old photos. I'm the last man in my family line carrying a very rare last name. When my grandfather on my father's side died, my grandmother gave me photos of their childhood, and photos dated back almost to the Civil War. The past is important to remember and I do not hide these photos from the ladies in my life so why do men hide photos of ex's in their life? Again, because it does affect most girlfriends and wives.

Most people won't know the reaction of their spouse pertaining to photos of ex's until after they marry. If ones spouse reacts unfavorably, then the husband/wife has to decide if the strain on the marriage is worth it. There's an old saying "If mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."

[Jumper]

AJ
I generally like your posts, they are balanced and show you as a person, who can accept other points of views, but I have to disagree on this one. Keeping pictures isn’t a basic need. If it was, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Eating or sleeping are, but not keeping pictures. Do you think I’d refuse a person a right to sleep?  Wink
 
I see that you feel very strongly about that, and it’s fine. It’s your life, your feelings, but when you try to rationalize them, this basic need doesn’t ring a bell to me. I can easily parry your attempts to prove why your feelings are so important by saying: if your memories are so important to you, why do you need pictures at all.  I remember everything important from when I was 5 yo. Or maybe not important but things that affected me a great deal.

I will not however do that, or we`ll be arguing forever, and this is the last thing I want. What I’d like to emphasize though is that you have strong feelings, and someone else has strong feelings (about pictures etc). In the end it`s just a feeling, so do you think that your feelings are more mature (less mature, medium mature), then somebody else`s feelings? How do you know that? Is there a manual on which feeling is mature, and which one is not?

Fashionista   
I've always liked your posts as well..
and i look at this as more presenting both sides ,than taking one.

So you remember your times at 5 years old ..
but if someone asked you to throw away the photos you  have from that time ..  would it be  a mature request?
regardless wether you throw them away or not ,or even care about them ,
 the request is based on the other person wanting something unrealistic ,for your memories ,
or at least the reminders of them ,removed.
why would they *want* this? to live in their own happy fantasy land? where you don't recall another person fondly?

We can all recognize ,,a child  acting immaturely  over *wanting* something  irrational?
(they want a pony in the house) 
or a child acting more mature about the same *want*

so yes there is a general guideline over what constitutes "more mature" in all situations?
being realistic is a baseline "in general"

your metaphor of a hotel room is an example of  common "fantasy."
and we all agree its a nice feeling?
but really if you look at it..
Is that mature to expect such? we Know as mature adults,  that the hotel cant exist without people being in the room and using it before us. so reality ,and maturity , deems it just needs to be clean.

if its clean enough to allow our *fantasy* as the first person ever to be there,  .that's nice!!
and it's a common response..we would mostly all share?   but its hardly a realistic or mature response
**************

Anyway- I was  pointing out  that photography ,and the keeping old photos is very basic,,
wether it's a need or not..is debatable? but something very basic drives this!!!
it isn't just some random hobby,when most of the population,if they can afford it ,has photos of thier loved ones and places they have been in life.History is filled with drawings, paintings, photos , why?
We all know the root reason ANY photo is kept ,wether it is of a dog cat ,tree, mountain, family, friend or favorite  person,
and noone would ask you get rid of your fathers photos..or favorites cat who is gone?

I agree the photo itself isnt that important as the memory remains regardless?
if your romantic interests wants the *physical evidence* of this memory gone ,
odds are they are it is driven by a  "wish" and *want* of the mental image removed?
Their real issue is they feel insecure with the physical memory igniting the metal one?
at its root, that is what "bothers " them!?!

Now would anyone be so crass as to actually ask you to get any memories of past relationships out of your mind?
no.That's unlikely.
as they know how strange that would look, and at it's root it is jealous and controlling behavior?
but they would ask you to remove physical evidence so it doesn't remind or bring back certain mental images.
which in essence is the same thing ,just more acceptable to ask.

Do you think the person requesting or hoping for all mental and physical images of someones past relationships be removed.. is as "grown " as an individual, as someone who is accepting that of course you have a past,and its quite likely their are some fond memories of it?
Do you agree the person requesting this removal of photos.. would  likely to  keep photos of their partner if some accident took them away tomorrow?

It simply isn't a mature or grown response, to a common jealous feeling.

I never said it wasn't normal to feel a bit jealous, or odd ,over having your romantic interests reflect kindly on their past relationship? ..it is.It is a very basic and  simple human reaction?
but isnt recognizing those feelings, for what they really are,,growth and maturity?

You could easily say the one with the photos could recognize they cause their partner discomfort ,
and throw them away. which is also maturity?
I do see both sides.
but really both parties know the mind wont be erased.So in my opinion , a shallow victory at best.

I don't feel nearly as strongly about this as my debate would seem.
I just find it odd people seem in denial about the real reasons behind someone wishing for photos removed.
There is not a mature reason to wish their removal if they aren't in public display.

Anyone asking for there removal probably isn't going to have a good answer as  to "why"?
They simply know that it *bothers* them.
so lets ask the very basic question, and get an answer?
*why* does it bother them?   


I do agree, there are way too many scenerios for there to be  a right and wrong answer on how  couple handles it.

Some posters were married for 25 years before remarriage,,
should they really destroy every photo of their past with this person?

in my specific case .where i was widowed, do  you really think it would be normal for a person to want  i destroyed all evidence of my ex wife ? I would not display them , it was 14 years ago and i don't really look at them..
Still, if they were in some drawer . I would consider  a request to throw them out quite strange.

If it wasn't quite as dramatic of situation, i still would find he request odd ,
 i would never think to ask this of someone else.

That  doesn't make me more mature, it makes me more realistic,
 I recognize they have had a past ,and hopefully have some good memories in it,and might want to keep a few photos
 of the person .afterall they were likely as close to them as to their beloved pet,,
which would be completely odd to ask then to throw the pets photos out..
right?
I just don't want to pretend to live in some *dream world* where i believe my partner has no past or any memories of other important people in their lives..


Billy B-
just because jealousy is common, doesn't mean individuals can't see it for what it is,on both sides of the equation.

I'm not saying someone should never throw out old photos.
if its some huge problem in their marriage its obvious what to do.


it doesn't change the root cause of why the person wants them removed,
and in my mind it's simply not a very mature reason,  be it  a common one ,or not.

People generally are immature on  a  lot of subjects.
A quick read of the forum shows that
How many wars started over something immature?

[Seeker]

You are a very wise man AJ.

[BillyB]

There is not a mature reason to wish their removal if they aren't in public display.

Anyone asking for there removal probably isn't going to have a good answer as  to "why"?
They simply know that it *bothers* them.
so lets ask the very basic question, and get an answer?
*why* does it bother them?   

Well, I'm not so sure there is not a mature reason for someone to wish their partner to throw out photos. I for one would think it's strange that a guy would keep photos of the last 25 girlfriends and ex's with him.

One of the biggest red flags of getting involved with someone is that they are not capable of getting over their past. I was on a few dates with a girl once and she talked about her ex boyfriend a lot. I was not happy to hear that she is still living in her past and not focusing on me.

Docetae's wife could be silently questioning Docetae's maturity and if he is still living in the past and not focusing on her enough.

I'm sure there are men out there when they make love to their woman, they are thinking of an ex or a woman in a Playbody magazine hidden in the garage. Maybe women understand this very well and feel threatened by it. I actually understand their feelings and it is wrong if a man is not 100% focused on the woman currently in their lives because the relationship can deteriorate.

Who knows if the reasons of keeping photos of the ex is for sincere historic reasons or to get horny? How will a girlfriend/wife know the truth? Women who assume the best are mature and the women who assumes the worst are immature? I'm sure all men will say they keep the photos for innocent memories and I'm sure all men in jail with tell you they're innocent. A guy better hope his woman never gets the idea of him thinking of another woman while making love to her.

If your wife came to you and told you she wanted you to remove photos of your ex's. You could call her immature. Once a person looks down on their spouse, the relationship will deteriorate to some degree. You could respect her wishes and have a smoother marriage. Which of the two potential reactions is the smart and mature move by a husband?  Docetae said he just relocated the photos of his ex's to a more secret location. The out of sight, out of mind solution may work temporarily to satisfy his wife but if she finds the same photos again, his wife will feel deceived and all hell could break loose. She may lose trust in him, a trust that may be lost forever.

If a person was widowed, their current spouse should be a little understanding if the photos of the ex are kept. But the understanding may not extend to the other 10 ex's photos that are hiding under your bed.

[docetae]

First, this is really interesting to read this thread. I learned many things about me and my wife
Do you know the story about blind men and the elephant ?
It seems my story is the elephant ...

First everything is good for our couple and my wife is not jealous and has no problem with self esteem...
Second, this question about North America versus Europe is funny, as I am french.
Third, it is interesting as Fashionista came with her point as it was the same than for my wife. This is something I have to disagree as I consider that what I am today, is the result of my past. my life is not an hotel room that must look like totally clean... I am more a kind of old leather jacket worn a little by time ...My wife love me like I am. I would have probably not met her if I did not lived this past.

Photos by themselves are not important. They were only a question for us about the importance of past and what it means to us. My relation with it is definitely marked by my own experience. Perhaps some will consider it pretentious, but I do not own my past. He is belonging to my children.

I told the story about my grand mother. This is the same here. I can not decide what will be important for them and destroy memories.

One of my hobby is to do genealogic research, some people are only names, for other I have documents, earlier photos.

The position of my wife was inverse: Do you want your children to find all your secrets, everything you did ?   Why you should keep them if they are not important in your life now ?

This is where we have this difference: I consider past as done and with no importance today, but the experience of this past today is part of myself. For my wife, past is done and only present time is important. Importance of past for my wife is done by the collective tradition, not by individual things.

[BillyB]

First everything is good for our couple and my wife is not jealous and has no problem with self esteem...

Good to hear. I think most wives who find photos of their husband's ex's will begin to have doubts about where their husband's heart and mind is at. It doesn't mean they are immature or insecure. Chances are your wife does not keep photos of the men in her past so she's not a hypocrite. It's her policy not to do so and of course she would want a husband with the same policy. She doesn't want the current man in her life to doubt where her heart and mind stands and that's a good thing!

I would bet than most women would rather catch their man reading a Playboy magazine over catching him looking at the ex women in his life. At least she knows with the women in Playboy her man never had an emotional attachtment to and never been intimate with.

I look at photos of my past relatives and they are coupled with other blood relatives of mine. I don't have any photos of past relatives coupled with girlfriends or ex wives. Although it would be interesting to look at, it is not important to me. My guess is that your future generations will not care as much to see you ex's either but it will be very important to see your wife if she is indeed blood related to them.

Currently I still have photos of the ladies in my life since my divorce. Maybe I will get together with one of them or maybe not. When I find another woman to spend my life with, I will toss out the photos of the other women. They don't mean much to me and 100% of my heart and mind will be with her. I won't give her any reason to doubt it.

[Jumper]

Docotae-
For what its worth ,none of my comments were speculation on your specific situation ,
 i was merely referring to my own.



BillyB said-

Well, I'm not so sure there is not a mature reason for someone to wish their partner to throw out photos. I for one would think it's strange that a guy would keep photos of the last 25 girlfriends and ex's with him.

Billy , if to make a valid argument in the debate, you have to extrapulate things  to photos of 10 or 25 old flames ,,
kept for some possible reason of kindling passion, its odd.
maybe the person  has them tucked inside a few playboys for effect right?
sheesh.


 I *think* we were in general speaking of a few photos of one or two important people in someones past..
normal everyday photos of some random life situation ?
Not speaking of possibly provocative photos of every lover they have had in some scrape book.
That obviously would cause most anyone issues.


The few photos I have of my ex are portriat ,or of her  our new born baby.
One she is holding a fish she caught.
( i kept them as much for our son so he can at least know what his mother looked like ,than anything else)

Odds are great that no woman on the planet would say a word about them right? they arent on public display ,
I seldom if ever look at them,  and they are in the distant past.

If someone asked that i toss them out..
what emotion or need would be driving them to do so?
would it be a normal mature one?


For fun,
lets get the bottom of this ??

If we had merely divorced rather than me being widowed-
 
ultimately WHY would that change the dynamic of keeping  those few photos?

would someone asking me in that scenario be any more or less driven by the same emotion or need ?
would it be more or less mature than in the other scenario?


Really, I'm just curious... at peoples thoughts

it's interesting, since it's an alien concept to me.

[BillyB]

If someone asked that i toss them out..
what emotion or need would be driving them to do so?
would it be a normal mature one?

I don't see a problem with a woman asking her man to toss out photos as much as others. I'm sure some men have sincere reasons for keeping photos of the ex. I 'm sure some women are jealous and that's immature. I agree with you on that but some women have a valid reason to question their man's mental state of mind and if he's capable of getting over the past and where his heart and mind is. Something that is not a big deal to you can be a big deal to your wife and hurt your marriage. You then have to decide what is most valuable in your life and take care of business. In a situation like this, not everybody is going to be happy and win.

Every situation could be different. Some men may have a few photos of one ex or many photos of many ex's. An ex maybe holding a newborn son and if that is the only photo of the newborn son, then I agree that photo should be kept by a man and the new women in his life should not ask him to throw it out because it's clear the photo is more about the son than the ex and has sentimental value.

[Zmejka]

For me, pictures are mere tokens of my own and personal sentiment

This is where we have this difference: I consider past as done and with no importance today, but the experience of this past today is part of myself. For my wife, past is done and only present time is important. Importance of past for my wife is done by the collective tradition, not by individual things

In these 2 quotes are my exactly views on this situation. I think in the second quote it's shown clear the difference between people with "memory or the past" and those who finds the past not important. So there will be discussions like this if two in the family have different attitude to the past.

And the comparrison with the hotel room for me is like some people (mostly men) would like to have a virgin so out of their own insecurities in relationships with women they entartain the idea that this woman isn't able to compare them with anybody else, so the illusion of being the first in the "untouched" room is there.

[kievstar]

I would never want a virgin wife - how boring.