Igor in Odessa

[gabrielo]

maybe when someone is not up at the job at 100%, will try to be overfriendly to make-up his performance?

at my last job in a university, I saw many suppliers, speaking wonders about their products/services/skills and  being over friendly, in the evaluating purchase process, and when theirs products/services/skills  became short of their speech, simply disappeared or tried the "friendship" to make excuses or sell new solutions to their mess.

and also saw a few suppliers showing good products, good services being friendly and with a few ( few of a few of them) become friends.

so one can be make new friends at school or at work or at another situation, but who will became real friends depends if them are good persons in first instance, and have something in common with us besides $$$

[2tallbill]

Simoni,
Not everyone thinks like you.  For example: me.  I detest bootlicking consultants.  Don't give me lip service, give me results!  I have had partners like you in the past and they ultimately allowed all the friendly BS to cloud their judgement with regard to overall performance.  BTW wheather the work is mental or physical has absolutely nothing to do with it either.
KenC

This has nothing to do with Simoni (I like him) but he is a big boy and can obviously defend himself.

Here is one example about how I became friends with a contractor who is a customer of mine. He is a single dad just like me. His son played baseball and my son did as well. We did several projects together and things worked out well. I had some SF Giants tickets and invited him and his son to come with me to the ball game. We never talked about business, our boys got to run the bases on the field and they got a couple of autographs from some of the players on their gloves. They had a great time and so did we.

Sometime later his son made the all stars and we went to a barbecue at his house. Again in personal situations we never talked about business, but over time we became friends. My price still has to be competitive and my service has to be good as well. I never licked his boots because he would never respect me if I did and quite frankly I wouldn't respect myself either. I have from time to time went out of my way to solve a problem with a difficult homeowner that was a customer of us both.

I am his preferred supplier but I make extra sure that everything is exactly right on his orders. I sometimes find a job where they don't have a contractor and I refer it to him just like he does the same for me.

In professional situations we are professional and in personal situations we stay away from business. I don't think that this is uncommon in my industry. Industries obviously somewhat vary from one to another.

Take care,

Bill

[Simoni]

Nah, the biggest difference is that I mean what I say and say what I mean and you change your point of view when cornered on it.
KenC

Wrong.  I have not changed my view. I came into this strand to challenge the statement made below...

The mixing of clients and friends is something that is not professional.

I responded by saying:

I'm a consultant and work with many clients.  Because I do good work, most clients do become friends.   Many are friends far beyond the time I work for them.  Others are friends as I continue to work for them.

Shadow, you'll just have to accept that there are different views on this.  I won't say your perspecitve is wrong, but I will say that it differenent from my view and the way I conduct my professional business.  And hence, I do think you should treat me with the same respect that I treat you when I simply say you have a different perspective.

Notice that I wrote "I won't say your perspecitve is wrong, but I will say that it different from my view and the way I conduct my professional business."

That is my opinion.  Has not changed.  Will not change.

You conduct your business your way.  I'll conduct my business my way.

You will not be my client, and I will not be yours. Fair enough?

[Nando]

Evidence please? You don't know, you think. Big difference.
 If's maybe's, opinion. Evidence?

I/O

My bank manager was working for a big American investment and private bank.
He just happens he manages a total of 320 million Euros of some of the most healthy people in my country (not me of course ). It just happen she now works for a Suisse bank now. Go figure what happened to those 320 million Euros?
Oh yeah they just flow away from the American bank. And I am also a friend of this guy while if his service was poor I would stop using his services...

[KenC]

Wrong.  I have not changed my view.

That is my opinion.  Has not changed.  Will not change.

Simoni,
You have slipped and slid through this entire thread, altering your viewpoint as necessary to make your argument.  Maybe your friends/clients accept this behavior, but do not come here and tell me you have not altered your own words here to me.  So once more for you I will point out your inconsistencies in this thread.  It will be for the last time because quite frankly  find it boring to debate with someone that cannot keep their own position in tact.

I wrote:
"You have made many false assumptions through out this thread:
If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they lose clients."
You answered:

Not necessarily true.  But I do believe that friendship between my clients and myself is ok, and even desirable.

 

Then why did you write?

I wrote...
"for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients."

I wrote:
"If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they must be rude and unfriendly"
You answered:

Not true.  Untrue, in fact.

Then why did you write?
I

did not say it applies to everyone, or all clients.    I wrote...
"for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients."

If you don't believe that to be a true statement, then you are being "silly."   If you lost two clients because rude and unfriendly service, then you indeed are "losing clients."

Here you infer that if someone does not wish to make their customers their personal friends then they must be rude and unfriendly.

I wrote:
"If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they are insincere and less successful than those who do."
You answered:

Not true.  You are the one who keeps using the word insincere.

Then why did you write?

Not my style.

Nor in other sincere, successful consultants

(This insinuates that those who do not use your method are insincere and unsuccessful)

I wrote:
"If one does not agree with your style of doing business, he must be personally insulting you"
You answered:

Not true

And yet you accuse me of insulting you personally but have yet to produce an example.

Hogwash to you, since you insist on mis-representing what I say.

Here is what I do say:

It's ok, and desirable, to be friendly to clients and to allow friendship to develop.

A business that is unfriendly will lose some clients to competitors who provide friendly service.  But not providing friendly service does not make a business unfriendly.  This seems to be one conclusion you are leaping to that is not true.

Simoni,
There is no need to misrepresent your words to show the many contradictions.  You manage that all by yourself.
KenC

[SANDRO43]

He just happens he manages ... It just happen she now works for a Suisse bank now. Go figure what happened to those 320 million Euros?

A delicate and costly surgical procedure in Tangier, maybe ?

[Faux Pas]

This has nothing to do with Simoni (I like him) but he is a big boy and can obviously defend himself.

Here is one example about how I became friends with a contractor who is a customer of mine. He is a single dad just like me. His son played baseball and my son did as well. We did several projects together and things worked out well. I had some SF Giants tickets and invited him and his son to come with me to the ball game. We never talked about business, our boys got to run the bases on the field and they got a couple of autographs from some of the players on their gloves. They had a great time and so did we.

Sometime later his son made the all stars and we went to a barbecue at his house. Again in personal situations we never talked about business, but over time we became friends. My price still has to be competitive and my service has to be good as well. I never licked his boots because he would never respect me if I did and quite frankly I wouldn't respect myself either. I have from time to time went out of my way to solve a problem with a difficult homeowner that was a customer of us both.

I am his preferred supplier but I make extra sure that everything is exactly right on his orders. I sometimes find a job where they don't have a contractor and I refer it to him just like he does the same for me.

In professional situations we are professional and in personal situations we stay away from business. I don't think that this is uncommon in my industry. Industries obviously somewhat vary from one to another.

Take care,

Bill

Maybe not the best timing to interject this but, I will anyway. I was waiting on someone to state that friendships do evolve from professional business dealings much the way that 2tallbill says happened in this particular friendship he mentioned. 2tallbill, I will take it a step further as I will discuss business with a friend in a relationship that evolved from a professional level. I have many consultants, suppliers, technicians and customers I deal with on a daily basis. Do I choose to be friends with any of them? No. However, occasionally professional relationships do evolve into friendships. I personally try to be friendly with everyone, customers, suppliers and employees. Does it matter in future transactions and deals that this person is a friend? Absolutely, how can it not. A friend would certainly have the inside track as long as he/she retained the professionalism and the best service or product at the best price. Just because we're friends doesn't give them the right to screw me.

[catzenmouse]

I wonder if I started a thread about hub caps for 69 Plymouth's and put the word "guide" in 2 PT white font hidden somewhere on the page if it would result in an argument?

Just an observation

[Simoni]

...you accuse me of insulting you personally but have yet to produce an example.

Yeah, I did.  Put on your reading glasses and look back a few frames. Post 15.  Or, I'll just repost your insult right here...again.

I don't care who's butt you been kissing, if it was for money, it is tainted.  If I gotta pay you for your company, you aint no friend of mine.
KenC

I don't kiss butt...for you to say so is an insult.  And tainted money?  That is an even bigger insult.  It surprises me how people can make wild statements like that, absent even knowing the person they are attacking nor the company involved....  Go figure.

I have resisted the temptation to insult you back,  but have just dealt with correcting the mis-statements you have made about my positions on the role between consultants and clients.   I'll work through your latest lists of inaccurate statements and respond later.  Right now I have a client...and yes, he is a friend.  

[Simoni]

I wonder if I started a thread about hub caps for 69 Plymouth's and put the word "guide" in 2 PT white font hidden somewhere on the page if it would result in an argument?

Good one, Catz :-) LOL

[Simoni]

I've been reading KenCs post, trying to figure out how or why he keeps posting stuff that I have not said and things that I disagree with--but attributed to me.

I think I figured it out.

KenC "reads" or glances at a post and sees what he wants or expects to see!

Take for example this post of mine, which he keeps harping about...

Not my style.

Nor in other sincere, successful consultants, IMHO.

Personally, when I'm hiring people who work for me, I want warmth and caring, not just a job done.  Because, people who care work harder and do a better work.   

So in life, you like some people that work for you and you don't like some.  But liking them is ok. In fact, it's a good thing.

Ken misreads the word "other" here.  Other means in some cases.  But Ken seems to have comprehended other as "all."  That is a mis-read of my intention.  Other means in some cases, nothing more.

I continue to stand by the statement in the quote that many "sincere, successful consultants" have the same view of working with clients that I do.

[Simoni]

I'm done here.  But rather than correct all the misinformation about my point of view posted,
I'll simply repeat again my beliefs about the topic.   Others have different views, which is good.  It's a big world with many customers, and diverse viewpoints held by providers gives customers more choice in choosing services.

~It is ok to mix business with pleasure.  In fact, it is a positive thing.

~Providers who hold back and protect themselves from becoming close to clients do risk losing the client to a different provider who is more open to a deeper relationship and understanding.   It has more to do with the personality and type service the client wants than anything else.  Warmth feels good to some customers, bad to others.

~A lot of the discussion here is "splitting hairs" as their is more in common than there is conflict.  We all agree that customers deserve quality, friendly service.   We just disagree on where the line between friendly service and being a friend is.

[KenC]

Yeah, I did.  Put on your reading glasses and look back a few frames. Post 15.  Or, I'll just repost your insult right here...again.

I don't care who's butt you been kissing, if it was for money, it is tainted.  If I gotta pay you for your company, you aint no friend of mine.
KenC

I don't kiss butt...for you to say so is an insult.  And tainted money?  That is an even bigger insult.  It surprises me how people can make wild statements like that, absent even knowing the person they are attacking nor the company involved....  Go figure.

Entering into a business relationship with the pre-existing goal to make your customer your friend (as you advocate) is insincere and indicates to me that you are attempting to blur the lines between business relationships and friendships.  "Butt kissing" or "bootlicking" are common terms for such behaviors.  Because such behaviors are preplanned as part of your tactics with customers, yes, the money is tainted.  Others prefer to let their quality service or products make the statement for the company's projected professional image.  If that is offensive, then change your unsavory tactics.

I have resisted the temptation to insult you back,  but have just dealt with correcting the mis-statements you have made about my positions on the role between consultants and clients.   I'll work through your latest lists of inaccurate statements and respond later.  Right now I have a client...and yes, he is a friend.  

Don't bother as my last post clearly indicates that it is you that is making the conflicting mis-statements.
KenC

[2tallbill]

I wonder if I started a thread about hub caps for 69 Plymouth's and put the word "guide" in 2 PT white font hidden somewhere on the page if it would result in an argument?

Just an observation

Absolutely !!


I am going to think up a thread theme that encompasses the following

1. Age especially HUGE differences is preferred by women in the FSU.
2. Religion and how everyone's but mine is a silly waste of time
3. Politics (this includes global warming) 
4. Who came first Ukraine or Russia and it should be obvious to all
5. Who won world war two (and who was helpless at the side lines)
6. WOVO vs WMVM there is only one way to find a woman.
7. The United States is the greatest empire in history would have to be worked in.
8. Which women are prettier and more sincere Russian or Ukrainian (as we all know there is
beautiful and sincere women and slutty tramps and nothing else)
9. I am 46 but most ladies think I am only 26, which is why I pursue 19 year olds and mature
18 year olds.
10. Foreplay is over rated, women don't really like it and I can make women howl and get back to
the ballgame in just a few minutes without it (it's my unique technique).
11. AWeb is the best agency because they have such hot women who write to so many letters to me
12. You should force everyone in Russia to speak English to you. If they don't answer in English just say
it louder but use a Russian accent.

I am sure with a little thought I can tie all these ideas together in a single thread.

Bill

[BC]

Bill, you forgot when and where to buy that ring.

and.. interpreters...

and.. well... I won't mention him.

[Nando]

A delicate and costly surgical procedure in Tangier, maybe ?

Was looking to the fate of the EUR/USD and was shocked
It is a guy however.

[Gator]

Absolutely !!


I am going to think up a thread theme that encompasses the following

1. Age especially HUGE differences is preferred by women in the FSU.
2. Religion and how everyone's but mine is a silly waste of time
3. Politics (this includes global warming) 
4. Who came first Ukraine or Russia and it should be obvious to all
5. Who won world war two (and who was helpless at the side lines)
6. WOVO vs WMVM there is only one way to find a woman.
7. The United States is the greatest empire in history would have to be worked in.
8. Which women are prettier and more sincere Russian or Ukrainian (as we all know there is
beautiful and sincere women and slutty tramps and nothing else)
9. I am 46 but most ladies think I am only 26, which is why I pursue 19 year olds and mature
18 year olds.
10. Foreplay is over rated, women don't really like it and I can make women howl and get back to
the ballgame in just a few minutes without it (it's my unique technique).
11. AWeb is the best agency because they have such hot women who write to so many letters to me
12. You should force everyone in Russia to speak English to you. If they don't answer in English just say
it louder but use a Russian accent.

I am sure with a little thought I can tie all these ideas together in a single thread.

Bill

Yep, it is about time for me to check out and get married.  Or is this place Hotel California? (surely most will catch that)

[SANDRO43]

Yep, it is about time for me to check out and get married.

Mind you, we shall be expecting a full T/R (Trap Report) on the occasion .

[Stirlitz]

I have been wondering what a trap report is but still unsure…

[Shadow]

I have been wondering what a trap report is but still unsure…

Perhaps a report about getting trapped in to marriage. 

[Stirlitz]

Just happened to re-read this thread. What a mess Reminds me a joke about preventing some blacks from raping a girl To paraphrase it: if you want a thread to go offtopic in a crazy way just mention guides