Teachings of Tashkent....

[kievstar]

I think JR went and the family and the women were real.  I think the issue was the lady said she was busy and JR did not pick a time that would work for both of them.  He still went.  I think her family was sorry for him as what kind of fool would fly around the world when he really did not square up mutual plans.  Than by posting on the internet about the experience they probably thought he was more crazy. 

I missed the money part - not sure where that was in the trip report.

[BillyB]

The forum could very easily still exist under a simple layer of security which would provide privacy from the Internet world at large.

Why do that when we can appoint police to clean up the place as certain people see fit?

We all have our opinions in this thread but what if we can have it our way?

If I had it my way here, I'm fine with how people choose to write their trip reports and post photos. Personally I'm okay with posting name and photos of a lady I'm in a relationship with. I would not post name and photos of ladies I've dated to keep them anonymous. It doesn't bother me if some guys do post photos of ladies they've dated or ladies just walking down the street as Jack Bragg has done. I have spoken out against guys who post photos and names of a woman and called her a scammer. In that situation they should post some proof but I've never been bothered enough to go report anyone to a moderator.

If SeriouslyJaded had his way, this forum should be policed by someone with his point of view in the name of protecting women. The police would remove all photos of wives, girlfriends, and children from trip reports, the photo gallery and avatars and they would delete portions of trip reports as they see fit unless the posters have written authorization from their significant other.

SJ, I know you think I'm some kind of dominant person who'd want to be in total control of people's lives but I feel the same way about you too.

[JR]

A member once ask if we can meet in person for a drink or two, knowing what I've come to know and experienced before, and with respect to the offer, I just felt it simply isn't something I really want to do anymore.

Awe GQ, y'd ya hafta go n tell? ))))

I lay claim to being the above person. And GQ is right, for all the reasons he mentioned in his post. In the end we'd have RW in common and not much else. So why bother? Neither one of us has anything in particular wrong with us, it's just the mixture would somehow be....lacking? Add to that that GQ has a had a few less than stellar experiences with such adventures and it is easy to see why he feels this way. NP.

SANDRO got it right. Nonrefundable tickets and an expensive visa that would expire before her scheduled return. Next time I'll accept the offer of a $25 trip insurance plan which I rejected, DOH!!! Add to that my desire to move beyond the first meeting and the answer to myself was, "go."

Let me be clear on this: NOTHING about the family or their behavior indicated to me they are scammers!!!!!! If the whole thing was a scam I would have been receiving flowery letters with promises of undying love penned by the SIL over K's name along with requests for money. Or I am a greater fool than I believe myself to be.

From everything I experienced the SIL (the primary character) with whom I had the vast majority of contact with was hurt by the postings. That means I owe her an apology, which she will get. Aside from that I am done with the situation.

Gator: FSUW and the FSU are and remain an option. I date locally as well as try to cultivate relationships with FSUWs. A few nights ago I went out with  a local RW and she asked me the same question. I told her I don't like dating cows. She laughed and said that AW are fat. I told her that should I find an AW that fits my mold and we like each other I'll pursue her. She indicated that seems reasonable.

[Shadow]

I told her I don't like dating cows.

Cows are vegetarian, have large brown eyes and are a great source of food and clothing.
What is not to like about dating them, except they chew all the time during the date ?
 

[Ade]

Why do that when we can appoint police to clean up the place as certain people see fit?

We all have our opinions in this thread but what if we can have it our way?

If I had it my way here, I'm fine with how people choose to write their trip reports and post photos. Personally I'm okay with posting name and photos of a lady I'm in a relationship with. I would not post name and photos of ladies I've dated to keep them anonymous. It doesn't bother me if some guys do post photos of ladies they've dated or ladies just walking down the street as Jack Bragg has done. I have spoken out against guys who post photos and names of a woman and called her a scammer. In that situation they should post some proof but I've never been bothered enough to go report anyone to a moderator.

If SeriouslyJaded had his way, this forum should be policed by someone with his point of view in the name of protecting women. The police would remove all photos of wives, girlfriends, and children from trip reports, the photo gallery and avatars and they would delete portions of trip reports as they see fit unless the posters have written authorization from their significant other.

Actually no, I'm not a fan of censorship and I rarely censored posts in the many years I administered and moderated a forum; in fact, the ones I did censor exceeded anything you've seen here by quite some way. So please, stop attributing an attitude to me and actions which just wouldn't happen.

What I would prefer is if people made an informed decision to refrain from posting other people's information without their consent. But if they don't and they catch some flack for it then, as far as I'm concerned, they deserve what they get.

SJ, I know you think I'm some kind of dominant person who'd want to be in total control of people's lives but I feel the same way about you too.

But the difference is, besides the fact I don't want total control over anyone is that I've never even hinted at it whereas you have said it several times.

[I/O]

Yeah right, and you're telling me you don't ever ask your wife if "it's okay if you...?"

No balanced relationship involves unilateral decision making and any that is balanced requires implicit or explicit approval from both partners for decisions that affect both of them. Sure, you may not have to ask explicitly each time but at some point along the way an implicit agreement between the two of you was reached by inference at the very least. You may not view it that way, but I'd bet that's very much the way it is not unless you've been lying about your wife's personality which apparently is far from being submissive and docile. 

Damn, I just love the "real man", alpha male pretenders in this place.

SJ, it's far from what you suppose IMO. It's about "knowing" the other person's limits without having to ask. It's about understanding and respecting. It's NOT about selling your soul out because she (or he) throws a hissy fit over nothing. It's about selecting a partner who has similar views and values rather then trying to create some "model perfect" relationship with someone whom you are not actually in sync with (I see a lot of this). It's about being in a situation where it simply isn't necessary to discuss every little thing because you both already know.

Trip reports are a fine line IMO. Generally they are written before relationships are to the point of knowing each others thoughts and as such are premature. I avoided trip reports as such for a long time but did eventually write a chronology of Mrs I/O's last days in Russia before permanent arrival and for some time after. It became one of the most read reports on this forum and I was comfortable enough with it until through change of servers and other things beyond my or anyone's control, all sorts of photos, sections of posts and in some cases whole pages were deleted or lost. Much of it is now meaningless or doesn't make sense and yes, I do now regret ever falling to the temptation of writing the report.

Conversely, later, I added to or wrote separately (I don't recall) a section regarding a trip to Russia during 2009 which involved my family, my parents and others. I was much more circumspect this time around and that had NOTHING to do with Mrs I/O's opinion of what should or shouldn't be included but was entirely about seeing the possibility of something going wrong with the site, parts being lost or corrupted and trying to visualize if it would become misleading under those circumstances.

At the end of the day, my view is that one should know the other enough to know if they will react unfavorably to a trip report or similar and act accordingly. If one needs to ask, they don't know the other person well enough and as such a report including detail about the other person is premature anyway. Nevertheless, that's only my view. Others see it differently. There are a lot of double standards on both sides when it comes to this subject. The boys think they should be able to tell all. The girls think the boys should tell nothing but they have the right to entertain as many visitors as they choose without the boys ever being privy to that before they come visit and so it goes..................................

I don't think anyone, including you SJ, can dictate acceptable common standards or guidelines for trip reports. It's a very individual area and as far as I am prepared to go is to suggest again that if you don't "know" and you need to ask, you're probably best advised to refrain.   

[GQBlues]

Regarding a "poor but proud" family asking for a bit of cash - unless the moral discomfort of doing so was far outweighed by the benefit, the event would not have taken place.  They survived before JR and will, surely, survive after.  Their outburst was probably a result of the feelings of shame/guilt, as I mentioned before; but that is their problem, not JR's.

I understand the point you make BF, and I wasn't so much stating mine in an effort to lay the blame on JR. It was an honest mistake that could have easily been avoided. For both parties. Hindsight, as they say, is always much clearer on rear view mirrors.

Rightly or wrongly, maybe my sensitivity for folks living in less than comfortable conditions enjoy a bit more rope with me for the simple reason I know what it's like to live the type of days under their sun. Had I been part of that family, in light of what transpired (subject TR's details) and knowing (the possibility) this gal may in fact had feelings for JR; it was at best, humiliating, sad (for her) at worst.

'Hurt' happens

[GQBlues]

I lay claim to being the above person.

Awww heck, there you go. So much for anonymity. I not only didn't say the person's name and city, it was void of posting a pic, yet JR knew exactly who it was. 

But glad nothing personal was taken.

[Dave13]

On another board, years ago, I posted a TR, which was very different, because it was a joint TR by Anna and myself.

[Ade]

SJ, it's far from what you suppose IMO. It's about "knowing" the other person's limits without having to ask. It's about understanding and respecting. It's NOT about selling your soul out because she (or he) throws a hissy fit over nothing. It's about selecting a partner who has similar views and values rather then trying to create some "model perfect" relationship with someone whom you are not actually in sync with (I see a lot of this). It's about being in a situation where it simply isn't necessary to discuss every little thing because you both already know.

And where did I say anything different to this? Maybe you just don't understand what I'm talking about when I say things like, "Sure, you may not have to ask explicitly each time but at some point along the way an implicit agreement between the two of you was reached by inference at the very least.".

Trip reports are a fine line IMO. Generally they are written before relationships are to the point of knowing each others thoughts and as such are premature. I avoided trip reports as such for a long time but did eventually write a chronology of Mrs I/O's last days in Russia before permanent arrival and for some time after. It became one of the most read reports on this forum and I was comfortable enough with it until through change of servers and other things beyond my or anyone's control, all sorts of photos, sections of posts and in some cases whole pages were deleted or lost. Much of it is now meaningless or doesn't make sense and yes, I do now regret ever falling to the temptation of writing the report.

Conversely, later, I added to or wrote separately (I don't recall) a section regarding a trip to Russia during 2009 which involved my family, my parents and others. I was much more circumspect this time around and that had NOTHING to do with Mrs I/O's opinion of what should or shouldn't be included but was entirely about seeing the possibility of something going wrong with the site, parts being lost or corrupted and trying to visualize if it would become misleading under those circumstances.

At the end of the day, my view is that one should know the other enough to know if they will react unfavorably to a trip report or similar and act accordingly. If one needs to ask, they don't know the other person well enough and as such a report including detail about the other person is premature anyway. Nevertheless, that's only my view. Others see it differently. There are a lot of double standards on both sides when it comes to this subject. The boys think they should be able to tell all. The girls think the boys should tell nothing but they have the right to entertain as many visitors as they choose without the boys ever being privy to that before they come visit and so it goes..................................

I don't think anyone, including you SJ, can dictate acceptable common standards or guidelines for trip reports. It's a very individual area and as far as I am prepared to go is to suggest again that if you don't "know" and you need to ask, you're probably best advised to refrain.   

I've never tried to dictate anything. Maybe it's hard for you to believe but we actually share certain points of view - perhaps you didn't read what I've written.

[I/O]

Maybe it's hard for you to believe but we actually share certain points of view

I'll believe whatever if it makes you happy..............only because I am such an agreeable fellow.

perhaps you didn't read what I've written.

Maybe it's hard for you to believe that I have.................and understood very well. Very well includes observing sometimes you argue with yourself without even realising it.

I've never tried to dictate anything.

Sometimes things come so naturally one doesn't realise what they do.

SJ, IMO you're one of the good guys of this caper but your way, even on this subject where I suspect we agree more than we disagree, is not the only way and no amount of passion displayed is going to change how others approach it.

Regardless, JR feels he needs to apologise to whomever for whatever and has every right to do so but I wonder for what end? I can't speak for the "Stans" but in nearby Russia, apologies seldom fair well.

[Gator]

[quote author=I/O link=topic=11722.msg229699#msg229699

SJ, IMO you're one of the good guys of this caper but your way, even on this subject where I suspect we agree more than we disagree, is not the only way and no amount of passion displayed is going to change how others approach it.

[/quote]

I/O, accurate and well written observation.  Absolutely suberb!

This is the case with most people involved with a RWD topic, not just SJ and I/O.  Almost all of the men here share the same general objectives.  When one peels all the layers back and reaches the core, we agree more than disagree.

[Faux Pas]

I/O, accurate and well written observation.  Absolutely suberb!

This is the case with most people involved with a RWD topic, not just SJ and I/O.  Almost all of the men here share the same general objectives.  When one peels all the layers back and reaches the core, we agree more than disagree.

Agreed. I think there is much more agreeing than disagreeing for the simple fact that we are all, all about FSUW. No matter which side of the isle one sits on any particular issue, it's the disagreements that  always seem to take center stage.

With that said, I am quite regularly shocked with some information that some choose to include in a TR. But, that is just me. I wouldn't personally include some such info but, to each his/her own. I do not judge anyone on what they choose to post in a TR. My moral standard may be higher or lower than others, I accept that and have no problem with it.

FWIW, I agree with SJ more than not, even though he'll find that hard to believe. His position on one of "consent" for a TR, I find absolutely ludicrous. I don't find it plausible that one should seek approval from another to share with whomever, their own experiences. IMO, if it is "my" experience then, it is mine. Mine alone to do with as I please and also my consequences alone for doing so. Attempting to denigrate someone for doing so, is the epitome of intolerence

[Gylden]

Agreed. I think there is much more agreeing than disagreeing for the simple fact that we are all, all about FSUW. No matter which side of the isle one sits on any particular issue, it's the disagreements that  always seem to take center stage.

With that said, I am quite regularly shocked with some information that some choose to include in a TR. But, that is just me. I wouldn't personally include some such info but, to each his/her own. I do not judge anyone on what they choose to post in a TR. My moral standard may be higher or lower than others, I accept that and have no problem with it.

FWIW, I agree with SJ more than not, even though he'll find that hard to believe. His position on one of "consent" for a TR, I find absolutely ludicrous. I don't find it plausible that one should seek approval from another to share with whomever, their own experiences. IMO, if it is "my" experience then, it is mine. Mine alone to do with as I please and also my consequences alone for doing so. Attempting to denigrate someone for doing so, is the epitome of intolerence

I agree...LOL  , These are OUR experiences and we own them too. It is up to the individual to decide if/how much detail or if any to post on a public forum. However, it could be clever of course to take into consideration the position of his GF/potential wife, if the main objective is finding a life partner.  Maybe if someone who is participating in such forums includes this information (forum participation) in his profile or reveals to the woman during the first contacts it would be discovered if it is a problem or not.

 

[Ade]

FWIW, I agree with SJ more than not, even though he'll find that hard to believe. His position on one of "consent" for a TR, I find absolutely ludicrous. I don't find it plausible that one should seek approval from another to share with whomever, their own experiences. IMO, if it is "my" experience then, it is mine. Mine alone to do with as I please and also my consequences alone for doing so. Attempting to denigrate someone for doing so, is the epitome of intolerence

If your experiences just include you then, sure, it's your experience but when you start including others your experiences become shared. As I/O pointed out explicitly and I inferred, once you know someone well, you don't have to ask directly about such things because you know what the answer will be without having to "seek approval".

But it's not so simple when you're discussing people your hardly know with complete strangers in an environment that is open for anyone to gawk at - you may claim that the experience is yours but it's also your date's/girlfriend's and some people just do not want to be talked about by complete strangers; it's not about the right to do so, it's not about logic, it's the way they feel about it. My wife doesn't like the idea at all and I can understand; I'm sure she is far from being in the minority about this too.

I'm sure a lot of guys remain anonymous here because they don't want blowback from what they say about who they meet if they ever find out - look at JR's TR, you can keep it as anonymous as you like but there's always a chance someone, somewhere will connect the dots. It's certainly not because they think their dates/partners would have no issue with them talking about them in a public forum because they know, most won't like it. Maybe that would change if they got serious and became married, but when things are in their early stages, my guess is that women just don't want to be talked about in that way.

Take this anyway you want but I guess I have a deeper respect for other people's feelings than some guys here and I'm also not stupid enough to risk damaging a relationship with someone special over an ego stroking TR.

[Gylden]

SJ,

There are not many experiences in life which are not shared experiences. I know you know that, but as you pointed out not so long ago, people get what they deserve and no matter how much one presses his own views/opinions on others, the chances of changing someone else is virtually nil.
I think even JR is getting the point, from his recent TR and what happened. You are absolutely right when you talk about respecting the feelings of a GF/potential wife. I don't think anyone would disagree, given the opportunity to really consider it. Guys that don't and then get bit by the consequences learn by experience. It is the only way some learn by.
In the mean time it does lead to some charged discussion though and let's face it even the guys who subscribe to the idea (of respect) read all of the TR's anyway and often post in them quite prolifically.

[Ade]

SJ,

There are not many experiences in life which are not shared experiences. I know you know that, but as you pointed out not so long ago, people get what they deserve and no matter how much one presses his own views/opinions on others, the chances of changing someone else is virtually nil.
I think even JR is getting the point, from his recent TR and what happened. You are absolutely right when you talk about respecting the feelings of a GF/potential wife. I don't think anyone would disagree, given the opportunity to really consider it. Guys that don't and then get bit by the consequences learn by experience. It is the only way some learn by.
In the mean time it does lead to some charged discussion though and let's face it even the guys who subscribe to the idea (of respect) read all of the TR's anyway and often post in them quite prolifically.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against TR's in general. I'm not even against trip reports that include graphic detail although I personally don't find them particularity interesting to read or very classy - FWIW I didn't even read most of JR's TR. However, I don't particularly respect those that trivialise and dismiss the concerns of their SO or possible SO out of hand just because it doesn't suit their world view. If nothing else it's a sign of an unhappy marriage in the making.

JR seems like a good guy and he's certainly not stupid so I'm sure he gets it but perhaps his folly is a far better lesson to new guys than a description of the inside of a Ukrainian apartment and what the shops look like there.

[Gylden]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against TR's in general. I'm not even against trip reports that include graphic detail although I personally don't find them particularity interesting to read or very classy - FWIW I didn't even read most of JR's TR. However, I don't particularly respect those that trivialise and dismiss the concerns of their SO or possible SO out of hand just because it doesn't suit their world view. If nothing else it's a sign of an unhappy marriage in the making.

JR seems like a good guy and he's certainly not stupid so I'm sure he gets it but perhaps his folly is a far better lesson to new guys than a description of the inside of a Ukrainian apartment and what the shops look like there.

Absolutely!  I think JR is a good guy too!
This IMO is a part of the discovery process (discovering what is tolerable or not) some people already have this sort of respect "inbuilt" and some learn on the way, while others will never learn.
The worse scenario, is that the FSUW doesn't discover this until after the marriage!!
 

[Faux Pas]

Take this anyway you want but I guess I have a deeper respect for other people's feelings than some guys here and I'm also not stupid enough to risk damaging a relationship with someone special over an ego stroking TR.

Sure you do! 

You are just special and a standout guy. Just like everyone else.

SJ, you are attempting to over complicate something that is really quite simple, seemingly based on how your wife and a few other women feel. You can identify it as shared if you wish but, it isn't. The experience of the individual is their own. Another person can be side by side with that individual and have the same or a completely different experience.

Nobody owes anyone permission to share their own experience. I'm not discussing legalities or rights here. It's more a matter of the degree of respect. Consent or approval is not needed morally, legally or ethically. IMO, depending on how much respects another, they may or may not choose to seek the other's consent. That would be an individual choice. No right or wrong answer there. Your position has long been in a number of these threads that the man must get consent before posting his experience. He doesn't. Based on his respect he may choose too, based on how much information about her he chooses to disclose. He should consider that because, he will be the one suffering the consequences as a result of his actions and choices. For every action there is a reaction.

I have a feeling you would like to dictate that everyone follow your moral compass in all matters RW and that is just not going to happen. If your compass is right for you, fine, get your consent before posting about your wife. But, don't denigrate others because they chose not to.

[Ade]

I have a feeling you would like to dictate that everyone follow your moral compass in all matters RW and that is just not going to happen. If your compass is right for you, fine, get your consent before posting about your wife. But, don't denigrate others because they chose not to.

Just voicing an opinion just like you are. Who knows, as a result maybe someone will think a little before they post something about someone else in the future.