Ukraine/Russian women or Latin women....

[Turboguy]

I took your comment to be that there were lots of women more interested in sex (easy girls) than marriage.  My experience with scammers is that sex is usually not part of the equation.

[Muzh]

I took your comment to be that there were lots of women more interested in sex (easy girls) than marriage.  My experience with scammers is that sex is usually not part of the equation.

I guess that would be a big minus. 

[dbneeley]

Not defending anyone or trying to offend anyone; but can't a case be made that such are very good at it?

And if one were to attack a type; what can be said about those who marry the first FSU gal they meet or a gal from a first trip?

As it happens, I married a lady I met on my first trip. I must have done something right, though, since we celebrated our ninth wedding anniversary this past month.

You just can't make any hard and fast rules--too much depends upon luck as well as on how well you know yourself, what you want and need in a mate and what you bring to the table to build the right kind of relationship. By the time I met Irina, I'd spent a very long time on preparing myself  to understand what was best for me--and I was absolutely shocked when I simply lucked into such a find so quickly. Of course, we spent nearly fourteen months in intense communications after that trip to be sure that our initial impressions were correct.

On the other hand, what can be said for someone who messes around for many years without success in reaching whatever goal he has set for himself? The world is full of "keyboard romeos" and even a few who travel but fail to find a suitable lady and then to close the deal. Some even wind up spending many trips with a total time in country of many months with no apparent forward progress in that time.

There's no doubt, though, that luck does play a part--but always with the understanding that "the harder I work, the luckier I get."

David

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas....

Yep, I would agree with you on the riding the old bicycle analogy.   I think almost all guys will probably have very heightened sensory perceptions and heart rates as they see the very attractive women and I suspect mine will be right up there in the "pegged" mode!!  

So let me throw this out....  if one is using an agency in a city, the big tour companies have offices there.   Let's say I have chosen Kiev (high probability)....  does one use the large tour group offices such as the AFA office there, or say Kievconnections...... OR..... find something in a local newspaper.  

K

Kapitan

I've never been to Ukraine. Maybe some of these guys who have will chime in and offer up some info on the agencies there. It being a large world class city I just about imagine you'd have to seek out boredom to find it. I would however suggest planting seeds prior to going to insure a bountiful harvest when you get there.  

In the big agencies there are plenty of sincere ladies among the others you hear mentioned about. It is easier to find them on the ground in-country than it is over the internet. The problem is separating the wheat from the chafe. IMO, you can do plenty of due diligence prior to going to help weed out some of those usual suspects. I would suggest Elena's Models to start communications with some Kiev women as well as some that may be within easy travel distance of Kiev. In addition join a recommended agency in Kiev. Even if it is one of the big ones, it is still a "necessary evil". They can be helpful without you paying through the nose. Visit them if you need to to fill in some gaps in your dating schedule.

Kapitan you seem like an affable guy. Are you confident enough in your own ability and personality to just go out into the city and meet ladies on the fly? IMO, this is a very under utilized way to meet FSU ladies. It takes a little more effort and some just don't have the Mojo but meeting ladies under more "regular" circumstances also has it's benefits. Look at it as a vacation and enjoy yourself. Meeting some women (as much as you want) along the way

There are a few terps and "friends on the ground" that are members here that could assist you if you need it

[Muzh]

On the other hand, what can be said for someone who messes around for many years without success in reaching whatever goal he has set for himself? The world is full of "keyboard romeos" and even a few who travel but fail to find a suitable lady and then to close the deal. Some even wind up spending many trips with a total time in country of many months with no apparent forward progress in that time.

David

But David, how do you know that they failed? According to who?

I know a guy at work that if you'd listen to him, he is followed by (lady) bad luck. At first sight, you'd say he's a catch: in shape, financially secured, etc. But when time comes for him to settle down with a woman, there is ALWAYS something to screw it up. Still, I don't see him the least unhappy. Seriously. He would try to cry on your shoulder with a smile on his face.

I wouldn't say the same for the women. I know a couple of them.

EDIT: I'd like to state that no one that I know participating on these lists were the target of the above commentary. If it was intended to anyone in specific, they would know. Immediately.

[SomeGuy]

Kapitan, I have to agree with questioning if you really 'need' a tour - you've been to the FSU before, but I think maybe you're slightly stuck in your thinking that the only or most popular way to meet women there today is via an agency or social - it simply isn't so, especially as convenient Internet usage and availability has continued to grow.  Check some of the free or simple subscription type sites given (not AFA/loveme) - if you have a specific destination in mind, make some contacts before landing, with freepersonals.ru or Mamba and a known/reviewed local agency simply as backup if needed.  

I am of the opinion that there are some women who simply would never sign up for a traditional tour/social.  Some people may make a similar statement about those registering with 'marriage agencies' versus local dating sites, and other cases.  Do some reading on how some "socials" may be advertised and populated, as well.  Jack's may be an exception there, as it seems like each woman attending is being specifically requested by someone.  I have no doubt that there may well be some very decent women at some socials, but do you think the percentages are in your favor?  I believe AFA had an article or interview fairly recently where they discussed their targets for socials, and why they do or don't have them in different areas, with them targeting the most economically challenged areas.  Why?  Let's take a look at what other simple reasons for attending a social might be - relatively low income, offered free food and drinks, dancing at a place they may well not be able to afford on their own.  Mostly western guys making their first trip (I'm not aware of many besides Turbo who did a tour and then continued down that same path after being unsuccessful, and certainly many are not successful on a first trip via social), so quite likely they are on the slightly ignorant side, possibility of free shopping as a side benefit.  "Why not?" is a viable female response, even if they have no intent or desire to look for a non-local relationship at all.  I can tell you that more than a few FSUW I've known would never step foot into a social, YMMV of course, but I do tend to agree with those who have stated a fairly high chance of encountering pro-daters going down some paths moreso than others.

But - don't listen to me.  I briefly considered the idea, and then looked for the experiences of those that did go down that path, thought about it, and simply saw far more negatives than positives involved compared to other options.  I have no doubt one might indeed be fun, but  that was not my only objective.  Listen to Turbo and others that have tried multiple paths, and what they say in general about socials (with some exceptions for Jacks).  Realize that socials and even agencies are not everyone's first choice in many cases, and with pretty good reasons, not only financial ones.  

If you do decide to give it a spin on your own, or at least outside of socials, I wouldn't worry too much on location or other comments, as long as you're in direct contact preferably before your trip to do some amount of screening/getting to know them beforehand.  People have happily married more than enough women from some 'scammer' or 'overfished' areas; as long as have your wits and common sense (and perhaps some right head critical thinking), a gem can be found nearly anywhere.  There may be more tours going to Ukraine over Russia, but I definitely would consider Russia the second (if) you decide to forego the tour/social approach.  I've met some extraordinary Russian women.

optimist - And what were the results of your many years?  As someone asked, have you stepped foot in the FSU before, and if so, how (tour, on your own, agency, other) and with what results?  The comments about AW and US or Western/local dating sites, referencing 'dozens of women' - seems a bit condescending, as I can say more than a few of us have certainly 'more than enough local dating experience,' even if I agree the AW casual daters and habitual 'shoppers' are easy enough to spot.  I didn't find it terribly difficult to spot the fakes or gold-diggers on FSU sites either, but there's certainly a contrast there once a typical scammer or 'interpreter' gets involved, amazing how quickly 'she' can fall for you, no?    Sometimes the contrast alone is enough to make some guys think they've found Nirvana.  

For whatever it's worth, AJ was traveling and married for a number of years...you might be barking up the wrong tree, or at least want to qualify your own on the ground experiences before assuming..

[dbneeley]

It dawned on me that I had not mentioned this on this board as I have on another--but I attended four different picnics that Jack Bragg throws each year in the Dallas area, mostly for his clients and former clients but anyone involved with FSUW or wanting to be is also invited. Thus, I met perhaps a hundred couples or so over those four years, most of whom had met on Jack's tours at one time or another. Many had small children. From them, I got many accounts of how they were pleased with the experience--and how different it was from the large agency tours.

Now, I am not connected with Jack's First Dream agency in any other way--but I have observed him taking time and giving advice to guys who were not his clients, and I understand from Turbo and others who have been on his tours that his clients are very well cared for on his tours. For someone who has the cash and who has no interest in handling most of the details himself, I think it is a valid method of meeting some very worthwhile ladies.

While it is indeed quite possible to handle things for yourself (which is what I did personally, by the way), there is something to be said for having the logistics handled for you so you can concentrate on meeting and evaluating the ladies.

The same could be said for Ed's personalized approach, or for the services of various guides and translators.

David

[I/O]

I/O, YOUR comment is actually the most spectacular display of ignorance in the longest time.

Happy now you have shouted that out? I thought to mention you are an idiot but Faux Pas and Chivo have explained that better than I can.

[Jumper]

  amusing thread ..

AJ originally said:

Pro daters could be anywhere  sure, but certainly in larger percentage  at  some big social? If indeed looking for them,I'm just not sure where we could suggest a man find a more concentrated group of them?

FO replied:

Not necessarily. If you are paranoid, however, that is what you will perceive -- and probably attract.

not necessarily.hmm. well ok.
 So I just have to know now ,as i'm curious ..
In any given 1 hour period of time ,may I ask where in the FSU
(since that is the subject at hand)  would a man  find a more concentrated group of them then?
A select few clubs in Kiev perhaps ?

If you can name any other places with a *per capita at the moment * higher concentration ,then i can see why you would disagree.  

FO-  sorry maybe we got off on the wrong foot here..!!
but you seem to be taking my point , and twisting it up a little..by adding the paranoid angle ,, simply to have something to debate.

I stated, in agreement with you, that  clearly pro daters could be found anywhere,and yes
in any country. I added that i felt that there would be  a higher percentage(per total attendees) at such a big tour gathering.
 This would not only be because some man was looking for them, or had a paranoid mindset!

 If I was advising men or women  here on where to find a spouse who was into Star trek,
i'd say  the concentration would be highest at a Trekie convention..
Yet its pretty apparent that particular vein of sci-fi  fans could be found in other places too..and other means of locating them.

I do completely agree with your general premise !
That you see, what you look for!
and often advise men here to not look for a scammer in every corner ,as you are then sure to find one ,while in the meantime you'll miss the nice woman standing right in the middle of the room,or scare her off by being overly paranoid.

 I am certainly not paranoid,that's pretty funny.
If it struck my interest, i'd attend a big social and weed through the various personalities to one that I felt matched mine , without any fear or paranoia at all about  pro daters being present.I just wouldn't find it a shock or unusual if this type were there, and if they were there in higher percentages than at the park.Hey like all of us ,they need love too,and shoes ,and ..

My advise here is almost always for the men to NOT be overly paranoid,
because I feel it absolutely shatters any chances they have .
 So if you took my post in that light,
i have to take some responsibility in not conveying my message well.

Now you certainly wernt *just advising* when you get into any kind of  statement  this:
when you have  dated dozens like i have , you'll then understand how to...
sorry for paraphrasing  a bit, but that was the slant ..

 

 As far as  AW, and being able to sort through the various personalities and their personal priorities,in life, I don't find that all that difficult ,and its quite the same in most any country.Cultural differences do make some in the FSU stand out a bit more black /white. As a sponsorship relationship there is not as hidden or the lines as blurred as they often are in the west.

But I do have to say that i  feel your point is way over exaggerated. I know plenty of America women that will marry, and in fact most either are ,or are looking to be!!
Truly confirmed bachlorettes are few and far between , and serial dating usually is a  rather fleeting run , often spawned by new found independence or some other trigger ,
that runs its course fairly quickly in the big picture.
Not that's its a big deal either way.
  My point was addressing your take on western women being less prone to commit over the fact they had more ,or easier access, to so many choices via the net, and so pointing towards FSU women that did not have a computer.
 It's entirely possible and likely  the internet dating "boom" may very well have social and dating impacts  ( but i would amend your thoughts to include the western male as well eh? as it would seem most ironic on this particular forum not too.. lol)

So for now lets  assume that this *net phenom* has made western women (and men) less likely to commit and more likely to be *kids in the candy store*  (oh here's that irony again heh )

How to address it?
your advice was to:
Try and avoid those with computers and net access, since they have all these dating sites to expand their choices...  and look for those *without* that access, as they might not be so *conditioned* to *serial dating*?

I don't say that view lacks all merit..

I just feel  a more moderate take serves better overall:
To weigh the reality of the situation, and both the positives and negatives of this *social phenomenon* and its impact in regards to the specifics of  their quest.
  Realistically i feel that most quality women have a lot of choices  regardless their net access,
so using that *filter*, seems to be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
  Realistically ,most RW that men here come in contact with, are thru agencies or dating sites on the net.After all,  expanding their choices and options is the whole reason men will  likely contact them ,and it's often the reason the men themselves are looking.

  So while other methods are good too,and certainly worth looking into!    
The reality is most will meet RW that have net access and actively participating in dating sites ,just like their western counterparts. Not only from the agency side of things, but from social networking sites/dating sites  just like is the rage in the west.
  I can't think of one RW that doesn't know about mambu ru , vkontake ,  Odnoklassniki  ,etc ,etc.
While they may not be active on them..just like a lot of AW are not on facebook or match .com, they are certainly aware.

I just feel its better to sort through the personalities and priorities of those with good access ,
than it is to try to find ones without access with some  assumption  that they somehow would be more prone to commitment or more serious minded towards relationships.
 I also want the woman I date and  marry to have lots of choices , because she will certainly have them all her life.

The original poster seems to be a pilot, my advice is to seek women of
near  social/educational  backgrounds, ie: a well educated professional types would seem the best match. I just don't think he will find one without net access, and the same "net choices" choices of her western sisters.
  Now yes ,he could specifically target RW who don't have the means  to have a computer at home ,
or jobs that they don't have one at work.
I just wouldn't advise narrowing his search that much,particularly considering his  background.
If he did find one and was very serious about her ,I'd advise him to get her access pronto !
so they could communicate efficiently and often.

It's only one mans take on this, could be right ,could be wrong!!
and you can toss it aside thinking its  based on *inexperience in *net  AW dating or RW dating* or in dating in general  ..if you'd like?  

Or you could just disagree with it.


You say you are  taking an upcoming Odessa tour?
 as such , your stance comes off far more as some justification for the actions to be taken , than one from experience.

I wasn't trying to rain on anyone's parade. If it's big agency tour,  i'm sure there will  be some genuine /sincere  women there..
However i'd venture they will be in the  in the minority.
 I'd also venture a huge percentage of women attending will have net access at home or at work, so they just might have that phobia to commitment!! !!  

All teasing aside , i wish you luck..

You say you are experienced so probably don't want or need any advice ,
as after all no one would go if they listened to everything
 but just like i advised KaptainL, I would tell you to absolutely go! why not?  
but if taking a tour , i'd advise taking jacks since many of the women coming to the social
would be ones you yourself contact and invite.
If taking a big agency tour, to odessa, i'd be expecting entertainment only, and nothing serious to develop.

[Jumper]

Re:socials:
I have no doubt one might indeed be fun, but  that was not my only objective.  Listen to Turbo and others that have tried multiple paths, and what they say in general about socials (with some exceptions for Jacks).  Realize that socials and even agencies are not everyone's first choice in many cases, and with pretty good reasons, not only financial ones.  

If you do decide to give it a spin on your own, or at least outside of socials, I wouldn't worry too much on location or other comments, as long as you're in direct contact preferably before your trip to do some amount of screening/getting to know them beforehand.  People have happily married more than enough women from some 'scammer' or 'overfished' areas; as long as have your wits and common sense (and perhaps some right head critical thinking), a gem can be found nearly anywhere.

exactly!



 Now remind me again if i'm single, why i'd advise KL to go there?

KL forget all about this silly thread ...
 Reunion island is the spot for you! I'm not sure why ,but i'm just sure of it!
I'll make up a bunch of reasons why tomorrow !!
but for starters it's an tropical-semi tropical  island!!
 That's almost always a good spot to find women right?
and it's French holding right? ohh lala!! So there you go!!
Vinny should go there too...

as really the FSU is so over fished ,loaded with scammers and pro daters,the women never smile and have absolutely no sense of humor! Boy let me tell you!!This babushka that sold me one little 1 inch brown paper bag triangle of toilet paper once, or this one train attendent.. come to mind.
Brrr!!! Those stares could cut 3 inch steel plate!!  I still shiver a little thinking about it!
(well ok the incident with the toilet paper actually makes me roll on the floor laughing,
 as the standoff was intensely funny afterward)
but you get my point?
These women  were NOT always babushkas!
they were once the very intelligent attractive women you seek today!!
but they will turn out just like that!  

 and plus you've been there before anyway ,,how boring is that??

So it's  Reunion island !!
off you go now ,move along , nothing to see here..
 

and take Vinny with you..
FSU women actually smile warmly  at him ,i've seen proof,
so somethings just down right odd about that bloke.

[Rubicon]

KL,

like others here, I think you should contact Jack Bragg.  you do not need to go on one of his tours to benefit from his experience and contacts in Ukraine.  he could help you with airport transfers, apartment rentals, good quality interpreters, and give you good advice.  if you have 15 days, I would spend one week in Kiev and one week in Kharkov.

good luck!!