Ukraine's Orange Revolution leaves bitter aftertaste

[Handycam72]

Interesting short report about the Orange Revolution, and the after effects.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9404678.stm

[Nat]

Wow, I had no idea about that fence. Nobody says anything in the media here.

[SFandEE]

My knee jerk reaction is this is very unfortunate and cause for concern, although I cannot imagine that Ukrainians will be submissive to a non-democratic government.

[Shadow]

It seems that any government that does not support certain countries is deemed non-democratic, regardless if they were chosen by the people or not.

[Nat]

It seems that any government that does not support certain countries is deemed non-democratic, regardless if they were chosen by the people or not.

Well, but this one is non-democratic - that's for sure.

[Muzh]

It seems that any government that does not support certain countries is deemed non-democratic, regardless if they were chosen by the people or not.

I don't think you were following Ukraine's latest local elections and the prelude to them. Maybe that is why you you made this statement, in which case you are forgiven. 

[Shadow]

I don't think you were following Ukraine's latest local elections and the prelude to them. Maybe that is why you you made this statement, in which case you are forgiven. 

Local elections have nothing to do with the national government.

[Muzh]

Local elections have nothing to do with the national government.

{sigh}

[SFandEE]

Perhaps it is a sign of diversity of thought, but it really seems this site is used by some for debate for the sake of debate.

I hope the fences do not lead to more a difficult political environment for Ukrainians.

Now is that a controversial hope?

[Shadow]

I wish that Ukrainians will continue to be free to elect whichever government they choose, regardless of how any other country sees it.
Its their elections and they have to live with the results of their voting.

They have shown once that if elections are deemed to be manipulated they can overturn the result, so if needed they can do the same again. As long as the people accept the results of their voting, other countries should not stick their noses in and tell their elected government is not fit. That goes for any other country regardless of its international importance or geographical location.

Clear enough ?

[Muzh]

I wish that Ukrainians will continue to be free to elect whichever government they choose, regardless of how any other country sees it.
Its their elections and they have to live with the results of their voting.

They have shown once that if elections are deemed to be manipulated they can overturn the result, so if needed they can do the same again. As long as the people accept the results of their voting, other countries should not stick their noses in and tell their elected government is not fit. That goes for any other country regardless of its international importance or geographical location.

Clear enough ?

Actually, it is not as clear as you think.

The 2004 incident was the culmination of abuse by the oligarchy. Many in the country thought changes would be made. Unfortunately they replaced Lucifer with Satan and the changes they were expecting (better standard of living) didn't happened. The good thing that happened was the media was free for the first time ever and they got a good taste of that.

Now you say that others should keep their noses out of this. Well, I disagree. I believe democratic countries (i.e. EU) should have helped in the development of a real constitution. Look what happened to the joke they created in 2005. Please don't tell me that the people agreed with this.

Like it or not, the future of Ukraine will dictate how the EU goes. So far the EU is giving UA lip service by accepting the autocrat's empty words from over reality. However, notice the population in general will express their opinion about the current regime and it is not good. That they will revolt again? Doubt it. That Yanukonvict will steal the coming elections? Count on it. Will Europeans stay out of this? Well, I guess you answered that question.

[Shadow]

For me its just funny that when a "friendly" regime is in power there is not a single accusation regarding malversations heard, where as when it is a "non-friendly" regime people at once start pointing and calling it non-democratic.

Probably it all depends on who wins the elections.

[Muzh]

For me its just funny that when a "friendly" regime is in power there is not a single accusation regarding malversations heard, where as when it is a "non-friendly" regime people at once start pointing and calling it non-democratic.

I totally agree. My complaints would be drowned by the conservative cacophony.

[Muzh]

Actually Shadow, you can bounce your thoughts to this person. I can guarantee you he'll reply AND in a very intellectual way. This was not sarcastic at all, the man is well versed.

http://tap-the-talent.blogspot.com/

[Muzh]

While Ukraine still wants to be perceived as a democratic European state, and President Yanukovich does not want to be confused with the president of Belarus, officials in the West must do everything possible to send a clear personal message to the president: They too hope that he will not become the Ukrainian Lukashenko, and if he seriously heeds their concerns and takes certain concrete steps, he will not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/opinion/03iht-edgetmanchuk03.html

Alyona Getmanchuk is director of the Institute of World Policy in Kiev.

Ukraine has held a half dozen parliamentary, presidential and nationwide local elections since the Orange Revolution in late 2004. International observers judged all to be generally free and fair — that is, until the October 2010 election, the first conducted under the Yanukovich administration. President Yanukovich made some last-minute attempts to fix the election law, but the ballot fell short of the standard set by previous elections and was widely condemned as flawed.

Steven Pifer, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, and William Taylor, a senior vice president at the U.S. Institute of Peace, served as the third and sixth U.S. ambassadors to Ukraine.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/opinion/02iht-edpifer02.html?ref=global

[Shadow]

Your post only confirms what I mentioned. As long as a friendly regime is in place, the judgement is positive.

[Muzh]

Your post only confirms what I mentioned. As long as a friendly regime is in place, the judgement is positive.

Are you talking about the previous regime (Yushenko) or the present one? If it is the present one, I cannot understand your assessment based on what I posted.

[SFandEE]

Friendly to the West or not--fences don't seem to be a good sign.  I will agree that fences are not the only concern in what is a good government for Ukrainian people and from what I understand they have been poorly served by Western friendly governments as well.  To my knowledge they weren't putting up fences--which is what was the subject of the OP.

I certainly don't like at the US government regardless of party serving the interests of its' people either.  I also don't see visible fences inhibiting protest and expression.  I have seen other "fences" though.

I find Wisconsin fascinating--pick your poison.  Union power or Billionaire power--even though it was a ruse, who could get their governor on the phone for 20 minutes.  Clearly a billionaire.  Not a teacher.