The Adventure Continues: Kharkov

[Muzh]

Neo, you say Xapkib bores you senseless? Can you share? In three weeks will be my 11th trip to this city and I love walking all over the place. I always find something nice to see or to do. And I'm the old geezer.

[Faux Pas]

neo,


The TR has been a pleasure to read and will certainly be a good tool for newbies in years to come. I'll just leave you with one old Faux Pasism "It's never the end of the line, when one door closes, another door opens".


Anyway, thanks for posting it and good luck on your next adventure.

[neo]

i came here maybe 20 times over a 3 year period including living here 6 months so it feels like my 'home town' in that respect, during my last long stint here i used to go out walking every day and exploring the city on foot so must have been to all 4 corners in that respect, if the weather is good and i have friends around i enjoy doing some stuff here like playing tennis since court hire is very cheap, i have been paint-balling and go-karting, but i must have been to the bowling centre for about 25 different dates.


its probably because i spent a lot of time working here back in the day when my old company had offices here, and so doing the 'daily commute' of walking home etc takes the shine off a place and it no longer feels like a visitor attraction, its one of the reasons i headed down to Odessa as i am a beach bum not a city guy by nature so when i have down time i like to be at the beach or in the park - its been raining non stop while i have been here (and pretty heavy continental grade rain and it is pretty dusty so you do get quite grubby if you go out in it) which takes the enjoyment out of strolling which is nice when the sun is out.


having spent so much time in cities like Kharkov the novelty value has worn off, I get to go to lots of big cities with work such as Berlin, Copenhagen, Dubai and other destinations so Ukraine cities don't have the 'exotic' appeal they did when i first did the quest, they feel a lot more like what they are which is provincial administrative or working towns with a low tourist attraction count. I never got bored of Paris for example, for the most part if you stay in a place long enough it can seem quite mundane, its partly due to the fact i have spent very little time at home over the past few years and am looking forward to moving into my new house and settling in for a bit.


to put it into context for you over 3 months i have racked up more than 130,000 miles with Emirates, over 180,000 with BA and around 110,000 with Star Alliance - all told i collect about 500,000 airmiles a year which excluding tier bonuses stacks up to more than 250K 'proper' travel miles a year, doing this kind of travel means whether i am in Singapore or Seattle, Kharkov or Kyoto its just another 'place'.

sad really, i used to love travel now I really enjoy just sitting at home with a good book

[neo]

just to add and outweigh my cynicism for the newbies


Kharkov is actually a great first port of call for those new to the quest, and my experiences should not put anyone off but help them better prepare for the journey ahead.


As a first city to visit as a FSU newbie Kharkov is very tolerant of foreigners, its easy to find your way around the centre and there is a good choice of apartment rentals, pushkinskaya is always a personal favourite since it runs parallel with the main drag and is only a 5 minute walk or so downtown, the only downside being there are much fewer supermarkets around and you need to go out to Caravan or one of the big shopping centres to stock up if you are apartment living. This is well worth the trip, I got a weeks worth of groceries for around 25 USD.


if anyone is looking to come to stay here i can recommend the apartment i stayed in, i don't want to advertise commercial services so if anyone is interested i can PM the details. it was a good price for a very luxurious apartment and has everything you need (especially if you are on a 3+ week stay) since it has a washing machine, dryer and well kitted out kitchen with large fridge freezer and is close to McDonalds, ATM's and so on.


there is plenty of places to visit for a first timer, and its easy to wander about without getting lost. they are reasonably used to foreign people here now as there is lots of foreign students at the university.


The Austrian airlines flight direct out of vienna is a great option depending on when you book. the ability to have a last layover in Vienna is a big plus if you are nervous of doing the kiev transport and generally i prefer to trust Austrian Engineering than travelling on domestic air flights.


if you have your wits about you then you are much less likely to get fleeced than a place like Odessa. Taxi prices, meals out and general expenditure is very reasonable and there is much less agency shenanigans and pro-dating/party girls than in Odessa.


There is a big choice of girls here due to the huge university campus and for the most part they are educated and serious, the compact nature of the city means if you find yourself without a plan b as long as you are armed with some local agency contacts you should be able to organise replacement dates if you so wish.


there are a lot of attractive girls about, and if you are a brave sort then McDonalds and several of the cafe and bars in the centre can be good pick up joints, especially mid week when the students are out to play.


the shopping centres on the outskirts (Caravan et al) are completely up to western mall standards and a good place to hang out with your girl, since they are mostly western shops you are less likely to get a AMEX fleecing at Marks and Spencers. there is even a apple store here now for the Mac Fans if you are feeling generous enough to buy your lady an ipod, macbook air or iphone.


the supermarket at Caravan is simply huge with many western brands stocked and is well priced, if you don't want to burn lots eating out all the time or like me get fed up of eating out too much because you are on a lot of dates its a good place to get some stuff to eat at home.


I think keeping flexible plans is key if you are planning a longish stint here, if things do not work out with your kharkov date and you don't find a replacement then having the plans in place to get over to Kiev, Poltova or another place can work out well.


They are building a bunch of new hotels here for the football tournament and i suspect lots of foreigners will be here for the footy so that will make it even easier for foreign visitors.


So overall I still have a 'good' impression of Kharkov as being a quality place to come on a fishing trip, things did not work out for me this time which had i done more preperation needn't have been a big deal. I think WOVO can work, sometimes it doesn't work, but always i think you need a backstop plan to put into place just in case - you simply cannot account for random chance.


if you have not been to ukraine before Kharkov is a good introduction to life here.

[Muzh]

Neo, you aware of any cafes with wifi you can recommend? This trip I'm bringing my netbook.

[The Natural]

We wrote to each other for about 6 weeks, I don't really engage in long letter campaigns for the reasons mentioned above, since everything can change on the first meeting investing in more than 1-2 months letters just to get to know each other is usually a wasted effort. we also spent about 2-3 hours most evenings on skype. I think i was more surprised because our letters and skype conversations were very realistic about the challenges of forming a relationship with her career/young child but she assured me she would 'take good care of me' if i came to visit, and she pushed for an early visit also. she also knew i was coming on a WOVO so i would have expected a bit more effort her side based on our previous comms, it did actually just smack of rudeness her conduct - she set out her stall a certain way and with certain expectations but when push came to shove i came through and she didn't.

So you didn't write very long letters but you wrote that you did Skype for 2-3 hours most days over a 6 week period. What really surprise me is that she changed so much from those discussions to when you actually met. I wonder what are the reason for that but I'm not suggesting anything here. From what I can remember from your thread, you used a translator when you met live. Did you use Google translation or anything like that when you talked on Skype?
 
I just don't unbderstand her, as you stated, great interest on Skype and her lack thereof in your real encounter. Care to give me your input on that Neo?

[Chelseaboy]

I would imagine this topic,and Neo's other recent topic regarding the Anastasia agency girl in Odessa,will make sobering reading for any man who's considering  meeting an agency girl in her twenties from sites such as Anastasia,HRB/RLM,Dream-marriage,Army of Brides,Natashaclub,as many of the same girls will be found on many of these sites.
It will be a reality check for those men.
 

[Vincenzo]

I just don't unbderstand her, as you stated, great interest on Skype and her lack thereof in your real encounter. Care to give me your input on that Neo?

Because she is an agency girl. Entertaining men is her job. If you look for her on Anastasia, she probably stays in chat every night. She cashed in $100 or so he has spent on her chatting.

[The Natural]

Because she is an agency girl. Entertaining men is her job. If you look for her on Anastasia, she probably stays in chat every night. She cashed in $100 or so he has spent on her chatting.

If that is the case, I don't understand why guys pay to stay in contact with girls like that! And afterwards say a VO plan is all crap???
 
Use an agency like EM or RBrides, get their personal adresses and move out of the agency and then you call the contact with her crap but then, you can't blame it all on the agency, right?

[Vincenzo]

If that is the case, I don't understand why guys pay to stay in contact with girls like that! And afterwards say a VO plan is all crap???
 

I found the right answer in the first message.

she responded to my mails within the day and wrote me lengthy, well considered and thoughtful letters that concentrated on the practical aspects of building a LTR

A guy pays $10 for a letter written by a professional. Somebody in the agency writes all these long letters. I think it was the interpreter who later wanted to share a day with Neo. She was ready for a relationship as well.

Also, I don't understand. The girl was comfortable chatting and skyping in English, but later Neo hired an interpreter($$). Was it a different girl?

Use an agency like EM or RBrides, get their personal adresses and move out of the agency and then you call the contact with her crap but then, you can't blame it all on the agency, right?

Women on EM are more real, they won't reply to everybody, they have strict requirements.
It'll be impossible to organize a trip to a city using EM and meet 20 girls at once.

[XMan]

Having just read the TR "cover to cover," I understand why Neo would want to give her the benefit of the doubt, especially having taken a serious WOVO approach. 

That having been said, I am in agreement with Faux Pas.  Sure, plenty of things can happen with a child.  I know a number of single moms, and dads for that matter.  Two excuses in a row, for a guy who's knocking himself out getting there and is clearly very interested, and then she can't manage to get a sitter for a couple of hours after canceling twice?  It's BS, and most likely typical large agency BS.  No offense to Neo, but she was never interested, and that goes back to long before they actually met.  An interested woman would have found a way.  Reminds me of an unfortunate trip of my own, except the correspondence had gone on significantly longer.  I am surprised the dog didn't eat her homework.  Or the sun got in her eyes.  Or her grandmother died.   

I also understand wanting to pull the plug and head back, especially given his multiple trips to Kharkov and extensive time there.  He's been there done that.  Time saved may be more important than money. 

I agree that pay-by-the-letter and pay-for-chat big agency sites are close to pointless.  I know one gentleman who legitimately met a woman that way, married her, and has remained married, but it is miraculous. 

I don't think all agencies are bad.  I think the bad outnumber the good.  I think large cities are much more prone to pro-daters / time-wasters.  (Unfortunately, getting off the beaten path generally requires more time and travel.) 

You don't have to use an agency and travel around the world to find gold diggers, pro-daters, time-wasters, etc., of course.  You can do that easily within a 3 mile radius of wherever you live.  I also think there are plenty of the same on the free sites.

The WOVO / WMVM and every other combination has been debated to death.  I've done both.  Cannot imagine circumstances where I would ever WOVO again. 

Whatever you decide to do regarding your remaining time, good luck, Neo. 

[neo]

Gents,


Thanks for the responses.


Regarding cafe's with wifi - there is several in the city centre that are easy to find, there is a very large one about 1/3 down from Pushkinskaya McDonalds which a giant blue INTERNET sign in russian, just look for the @ symbol. there is also free wifi at the McDonalds but it doesn't always work. Most apartments have wifi connections as well. The apartment I stayed in had good fast wifi and the owner set it up for me when I arrived.


Regarding the girl, this was a little different scenario from the AD 'pay per play' situation i was in at Odessa. Regarding the skype conversations she was using a free online translator - she would sometimes forget and type in russian then have to cut and paste in the proper response. so she wasn't earning anything from our chat.


We exchanged only 4 letters through AD before i gave her my phone number and then we made direct contact.


The date was arranged directly without AD 'date me service' so i did not pay anything to meet her. the first translator met with me and took me to the supermarket and did not charge me anything for the afternoon helping me as she felt sorry that i had come all this way and been let down. She arranged for her friend to do the translation for the eventual date as she was at a friends birthday, the girl who did our translation had a good day job in an office and she only charged me about 10 USD a hour for the meeting so it wasn't like she was going to retire to Monaco on 25 Bucks.


Honestly speaking if this was 'pay per play' then they need to sort out their business model. collectively they would earn more at McDonalds.


It wasn't a forced meeting in terms of 'agency contract's' simply because we did not do it through the agency so they weren't aware of it - there weren't any other red flags, the venue for the date was pretty reasonably priced, generally if a girl is a paid dater she spends as much not as little time as possible with you to milk you for all she can get (see previous encounter in Odessa for modus operandi).


Honestly speaking guys I think you are reading waaaaaaaaay too much into this in trying to assume things did not work out because the girl was just a pro-chatter/paid dater.


The simple fact is you are talking about a young single mom post divorce. Kuna i believe is closest to the truth in the fact she is probably a bit cynical about men post divorce, has had to 'toughen up' to take care of her child and hold down a career and simply not having been in the dating scene has lost her 'skills' in how to conduct a new relationship.


I have met plenty of pro-daters in my time and this girl just didn't fit any of the behaviour patterns, she reminded me a lot of my sister when her child was that age - I think Kuna is right, you have to know of a single mom in that situation to understand their behaviour in context.


So how do i explain her difference in behaviour:


its quite simple, and my sister has done it so its not something unique to RU/UA single moms.


She is at work all day and her mom is looking after the child, she gets home and has to spend every evening taking care of her child while girls of her age can go out to cafes, cinema, meeting guys etc.


Spending time writing letters and chatting to guys on the internet is something she can do from home, satisfies an emotional need to feel wanted/desirable, but is something she can fit in late nights with a crying baby. Obviously she puts her 'best foot forward' in such dialogue because she wants to continue getting this emotional security blanket at it makes her feel she has some hope and isn't in reality a divorced single mom stuck at home with a young child with no romantic future.


She told me she had dated some guys locally but they had not been honest with her, so clearly she has some trust issues.


Writing WM on the internet is a very low risk affair, since almost none of the guys are ever likely to show up its something that is in very little danger of being made real.


If a guy does show up then while she likes the idea of a relationship in execution she does not have the time for it given her schedule or the emotional energy/will to put the effort in to satisfy a mans attentions as well as her childs. Women after their child usually have very little inclination or energy towards romantic encounters - this was the reason for her divorce, after the child was born she put very little effort into keeping her man happy, he was a young guy and got bored and went off womanising.


So its a combination of a number of factors - internet dating probably suits her emotional need for adult human contact and social interaction on a timescale that suits her,


there is very little chance of it being made real and requiring her to 'get off the fence'.


She isn't really at a place in her life where whatever guy turns up she is willing/able to put the time/emotional commitment/trust into a relationship building to make it work.


So here it is - we talk a LOT about male keyboard romeo's - now why do we assume there aren't an equal number of female keyboard romeo's????


We BLINDLY assume every girl who registers on a agency is 100% serious and if she isn't she must be a paid chatter, pro-dater or scammer. How many of us stop to consider there are a lot of girls who do it just for entertainment/because they are lonely/bored/curious and have ZERO intention of actually having a LTR or meeting a WM on the basis of it????


I know speaking to my ex she told me a lot of girlfriends had registered with such websites as entertainment - life can be quite boring in RU/UA and it was something fun to do to live out different fantasy's. mostly they were just content with the pen-pal status and the odd bunch of roses, given the very slim chances prince charming will turn up very few of them took it serious.


I would agree with an earlier point made on the thread that the child was brought as protection/defense mechanism. Most girls know if they bring a 3 year old child to a first date its a pretty good way to kill off romantic interest from most men.


Kuna wrote a lot of sense in his post - one of the reasons i was not especially annoyed by her behaviour either pre-date or post date is the fact I did not see evidence of malicious intent. pretty much speaking her conduct during the date was one of a young exhausted mom who had just had a full day at work, now had to amuse her child who had been waiting for her to come home all day and didn't have the energy for it - young moms get very little free time so its understandable especially if they are working and studying as well.


I can see the argument about family support and child-care - but i can see the alternative argument is that her mom already provides a free child-care service for her 45+ hours a week so she can go out to work and study on her career, asking her to then extend this even further so she can go running round town dating probably seems a bit much.


I would say this was really bad communication on the womans side - i am pretty sure if she explained she was meeting a guy who had travelled so far and was a serious prospect for a husband (and therefore solve her mothers requirement to provide future childcare) her mother could have been pretty accommodating - that said we do not know what other family commitments they had and maybe it simply was not possible to organise child-care at late notice.


You have to be pragmatic about this which i believe Kuna has been - its simply not realistic to expect any endeavour involved in human relationships to be a 'paint by numbers experience' where everything can be catagorically placed into prodater/scammer/not serious/genuine. There are so many variables at play that we have no sight of ultimately the whole thing is a crapshoot.


Perhaps if i had come on another week things would be completely different.


for the record she was usually only on chat between around 10:30 and 12pm local time when she was having trouble getting her child to sleep, she was far from the 3 shifts 24/7 serial chatter AD girl.


One of the reasons i can feel some empathy for her position and not be judgemental is that i have looked after my niece when my sister had to work away on a training course for 3 weeks. and even 3 days with a child of this age had me completely exhausted, they are on the go from the minute they wake to the minute they finally go to sleep and by 9pm i was shot to pieces energy wise - if you asked me then if had energy to go out be a charming date then i would say the odds were very slim. Kids under 4 are DAMN hard work and very few guys appreciate just exactly how hard it us to do a full days work then come home and deal full time with the needs of a child that age.


So guys lets try and put it into perspective, it was my choice to do a WOVO with this woman, and it did not work out probably entirely for circumstantial reasons. AD made very little dollars out of the initial correspondence and nothing from the visit,


Also i did not push for the meetings, after she cancelled the first 2 i spoke to her on skype and she was apologetic and said she was trying to sort her situation out, I indicated i thought she had a lot on and it was partly my fault for booking the trip last minute and not giving her chance to organise better and said it was better if i got a early flight home, so she had an opportunity to get out of the meeting if she wanted to without ill feeling but decided to go ahead with it, also when i chatted to her last night she seemed disappointed (but not surprised) that i was choosing to go home early.


so while her behaviour and conduct has been far from perfect and she has made a lot of mistakes that would potentially cost her a relationship that could have been something she wanted, I do not think we can go so far as start pointing the finger of malicious intent at anything she has done. I think it would be somewhat unfair to her given her circumstances and probably send out the wrong message that this entire process should be a walk in the park and guys should dismiss it if it isn't.


Kuna is correct in that given the circumstances a very patient guy with lots of time on his hands could well do very well with this woman, and she could be very serious. Unfortunately my situation dictates that time is pretty precious to me right now and i cannot afford to sit about Kharkov idling or on pleasure trips, i came with the specific purpose for F2F time with her and when that wasn't able to happen it was time to move on.


Generally from my experience long letter and chat campaigns don't work out for me, while i am working in europe ukraine is only 2 hours on my doorstep and it used to take me longer to commute through downtown LA so its not a big deal to get over there and have meetings in person, generally i just like to do a first draft 4-6 weeks of comms to make sure its worth the effort then go and do the rest of the get to know you stuff in person.


its a shame i had a run of bad luck on this trip, I don't think this is something unique to AD because i have had 'no shows' from many conventional dating sites and other setups, she was far from your atypical AD pay per play girl so i think its just being the victim of a woman with a very hectic schedule for whom relationship's might sit at the bottom of her current list of priorities.


Not trying to defend or judge - just call it the way I see it on the ground, the reality is we may never know.

[neo]

INTERNET CAFE:


Another internet cafe recommendation.


'COFFEE LIFE' - Pushkinskya.


Walk up Pushkinskaya with the McDonalds on your left side as you go up the hill, pass the fountains on your left and cross over the street to the next block. COFFEE LIFE is on this block (before you reach the bank of cyprus). its a quite western starbucks type place and has wifi.

[neo]

one key point i would add to this thread.


having been around since the early days and shared many experiences with different guys on the journey, a huge contingent in our success is pure blind luck. all said and done all the prep work, understanding about agencies, scammers, pro-daters etc is basic 101 preperation, when it comes down to the day of battle it really is just the same as a blind date back home with slightly better odds of meeting a marriage minded lady. too many guys i have witnessed arrive here with the MOB mentality that its a 'visit, choose, marry' scenario. One thing that has changed hugely over the years is the quality of life in Ukraine, there is a lot more western type outlets, shopping malls and opportunities than before (Still the bad choice of men and too many single girls though) so there are probably much less women who are in a 'economic rush to the exit' than 10 years ago. Because of this the women are much more selective and take much more time and have much higher expectations, the tales of 65 year old guys turning up at 15 girl WMVM or socials and meeting a girl and filing papers after 3 visits I believe are long gone except for the minority of GCG.


i know guys who have been VERY luck to meet ms right on the very first visit without any headaches, and i know guys who took 20 or more trips and several dozen meetings with different girls through a dozen or more methods to find a winner.


its important to remember all the FSU offers you is increased choice of dating potential, not a expedited trip to the altar with your perfect girl.


Any guy starting on this quest needs to understand that choice of agency, pre-qualification of date prospects and all these things just mitigate the already high odds of failure and wasted time. But depending on how you lucky you get you may have to commit to being in this for the 'long haul' and make several trips, sacrifice huge amounts of vacation time to spend in places that are far from holiday resorts, and have a lot of frustration, setbacks and pitfalls on the way.


I strongly believe the guys who come through this to success, be it quickly or over an extended period do so through their ability to maintain a sense of balance and perspective and realism, and understand the odds they are playing and don't become cynical, dejected or demoralised from the bad experiences and hopefully learn from them and apply that to the next chance to improve their odds.


i always go in for these things expecting the worst and hoping for the best, i think thats all we can do - we cannot always expect the women to understand fully what we go through as men, or support us as we would like or even behave in a way we would consider appropriate for the risks and time we are taking - all these things are purely down to human character which is completely unique to the individual. one guy may meet an exceptionally attentive woman who meets him at the airport, cooks for him, makes a lot of time for him and so on - another guy may meet a genuine woman who does none of these things not through malice but simply its not in her comprehension to behave this way.


there is no training either side on what the 'correct way' to behave really is, for sure we have our board ideas and golden rules, but mostly the woman don't play by them or have any understanding such rules should exist. if they have never left their country (or even city) then they have no personal comprehension of what it means or the expense of travelling to another country, they never got on a plane to travel to a foreign place to be able to understand the fears and worries we have.


its important to remember we choose to do this, and as several have stated the risk lies on our shoulders for the outcome. we were not forced into it, and therefore we cannot expect a woman to feel obligated to keep her end of the bargain (as we would expect it). if you do WOVO you do so for your own benefit just as if you do WMVM you do so to put the odds in a area you feel the risk and expense is justified.


I don't get down by the setbacks, I had probably more than 80 such encounters before i met my ex-wife, and i learnt that was just the start of the real challenges - once you have met the right woman going through the visa process and cultural adaptation to marriage is a even bigger challenge,which is why its so important to make the right choices now at the ground zero stage.


What i learnt from my marriage was not to rush into a new bad situation off the back of another. Things did not work out this time for me but it was not appropriate with so little planning and time, and the wrong mindset to attempt to meet other girls and start a relationship encounter that could lead to a LTR and all its consequences.


The issues i faced these past days were all key important factors in a future relationship, whatever her reasons for her behaviour the simple matter is that she did not value my attention enough to put me beyond her other troubles - if it had really meant something to her she could have bent over backwards to make time to see me, the fact she did not tells me she is not the woman i will spend the rest of my life with - anyone who is inattentive at the very start of the game is unlikely to improve down the line once 'they caught the bus' (and dont need to run to catch it any more).


its easy to gloss over problems, but when a pattern emerges you have to be very aware these are symptoms that will resonate throughout your future relationship in possibly much worse ways.


my simple take is however genuine this girl she was not at all ready to have a start a LTR. she had too many negative emotions from her failed marriage and had too little time to commit to make it work in a balanced and fair manner, therefore despite my sympathy for her situation it was not a starting point that was going to lead to a good LTR.


One thing to keep optimistic about is that any walk on the streets will tell you there is plenty of fish out there to land, you simply do not need to expend more time than is needed to pre-qualify a potential match and determine if it is worth further investment, if it isn't then there is no point in flogging a dead horse and its simply better and more prudent to move straight on to the next potential match.


Fact remains the ball is still in our court, however these girls wish to treat the situation speaking to any terp will tell you that probably 1 in 250 guys who write ever put their feet on the ground, and of those guys they are pursuing a simply HUGE dating pool of available women of all ages, shapes and sizes, so for genuine girls the odds are very poor and for the guys the odds (eventually) are very good you will get exactly what you want if you are prepared to stick at it.


if you are prepared to invest the time in making regular trips and have a realistic attitude however you choose to locate your potentials be it through high risk HRB/AD or random chance meetings in McDonalds sooner or later you are going to find the girl you want who thinks you are a keeper and it will work out, as long as you set your boundaries over what you are prepared to stake as skin in the game then you will come through it without any negative issues even when things don't always go to plan.


ok, so i am off to the airport, good luck to all!

[Muzh]

Regarding cafe's with wifi - there is several in the city centre that are easy to find, there is a very large one about 1/3 down from Pushkinskaya McDonalds which a giant blue INTERNET sign in russian, just look for the @ symbol. there is also free wifi at the McDonalds but it doesn't always work. Most apartments have wifi connections as well. The apartment I stayed in had good fast wifi and the owner set it up for me when I arrived.

'COFFEE LIFE' - Pushkinskya.


Walk up Pushkinskaya with the McDonalds on your left side as you go up the hill, pass the fountains on your left and cross over the street to the next block. COFFEE LIFE is on this block (before you reach the bank of cyprus). its a quite western starbucks type place and has wifi.

Great, thx for the tip, know the place.
 
 

She is at work all day and her mom is looking after the child, she gets home and has to spend every evening taking care of her child while girls of her age can go out to cafes, cinema, meeting guys etc.


Spending time writing letters and chatting to guys on the internet is something she can do from home, satisfies an emotional need to feel wanted/desirable, but is something she can fit in late nights with a crying baby. Obviously she puts her 'best foot forward' in such dialogue because she wants to continue getting this emotional security blanket at it makes her feel she has some hope and isn't in reality a divorced single mom stuck at home with a young child with no romantic future.

Boy, does this brings back memories. I was taking care of my two children ages 6 and 4. I bought myself a computer just to enterntain myself. No weekends free and very demanding children. I felt there was no chance at dating so I had resigned myself to be a single dad until they would grow up. That is, until a friend sent me an email so I could check out the hot babes looking for a husband. I believe it was called foreignwomenmegasite.com
 

If a guy does show up then while she likes the idea of a relationship in execution she does not have the time for it given her schedule or the emotional energy/will to put the effort in to satisfy a mans attentions as well as her childs. Women after their child usually have very little inclination or energy towards romantic encounters - this was the reason for her divorce, after the child was born she put very little effort into keeping her man happy, he was a young guy and got bored and went off womanising.
 

Exactly what happened to my wife's best friend. This happens a lot in UA.

So here it is - we talk a LOT about male keyboard romeo's - now why do we assume there aren't an equal number of female keyboard romeo's????
 

We BLINDLY assume every girl who registers on a agency is 100% serious and if she isn't she must be a paid chatter, pro-dater or scammer. How many of us stop to consider there are a lot of girls who do it just for entertainment/because they are lonely/bored/curious and have ZERO intention of actually having a LTR or meeting a WM on the basis of it????

Very interesting POV.

I know speaking to my ex she told me a lot of girlfriends had registered with such websites as entertainment - life can be quite boring in RU/UA and it was something fun to do to live out different fantasy's. mostly they were just content with the pen-pal status and the odd bunch of roses, given the very slim chances prince charming will turn up very few of them took it serious.

That's how I met my wife. She wanted to practice her English and she was at a mom and pop agency that was more of an internet cafe than an agency. Unfortunately, she was not counting on my charming personality and rugged looks. 
 
 

I would agree with an earlier point made on the thread that the child was brought as protection/defense mechanism. Most girls know if they bring a 3 year old child to a first date its a pretty good way to kill off romantic interest from most men.

Hence my comment that she may be testing you.
 

Perhaps if i had come on another week things would be completely different.

That's a good possibility.

One of the reasons i can feel some empathy for her position and not be judgemental is that i have looked after my niece when my sister had to work away on a training course for 3 weeks. and even 3 days with a child of this age had me completely exhausted, they are on the go from the minute they wake to the minute they finally go to sleep and by 9pm i was shot to pieces energy wise - if you asked me then if had energy to go out be a charming date then i would say the odds were very slim. Kids under 4 are DAMN hard work and very few guys appreciate just exactly how hard it us to do a full days work then come home and deal full time with the needs of a child that age.

Been there, did that. Even kids older than 4. And I had two.

so while her behaviour and conduct has been far from perfect and she has made a lot of mistakes that would potentially cost her a relationship that could have been something she wanted
 

That's sad to hear.

Kuna is correct in that given the circumstances a very patient guy with lots of time on his hands could well do very well with this woman, and she could be very serious. Unfortunately my situation dictates that time is pretty precious to me right now and i cannot afford to sit about Kharkov idling or on pleasure trips, i came with the specific purpose for F2F time with her and when that wasn't able to happen it was time to move on.

Neo, does that mean you are done with her?
 
 

[SANDRO43]

So here it is - we talk a LOT about male keyboard romeo's - now why do we assume there aren't an equal number of female keyboard romeos????

Because they're called keyboard Juliets .

[Muzh]

The issues i faced these past days were all key important factors in a future relationship, whatever her reasons for her behaviour the simple matter is that she did not value my attention enough to put me beyond her other troubles - if it had really meant something to her she could have bent over backwards to make time to see me, the fact she did not tells me she is not the woman i will spend the rest of my life with - anyone who is inattentive at the very start of the game is unlikely to improve down the line once 'they caught the bus' (and dont need to run to catch it any more).

Oh boy, you don't know my wife. That she did not came up to your expectations is something I understand and can see why you feel this way. However, the last statement you make about catching the bus is a big generalization. IF I had taken the same route 12 years ago I would have missed on the most beautiful and loving woman I have ever met.

my simple take is however genuine this girl she was not at all ready to have a start a LTR. she had too many negative emotions from her failed marriage and had too little time to commit to make it work in a balanced and fair manner, therefore despite my sympathy for her situation it was not a starting point that was going to lead to a good LTR.

No argument there. In this case I think you did the right thing.

Neo, for some reason I think you are in your early to mid 30s. However, the advice dispensed in you TR is of an old and experienced sage.
 
Goood luck to you.

[XMan]

Very interesting points, Neo. 
And since you are the one on the ground, you are by far the best judge. 
Frankly, I was looking at your situation through my own non-rose colored glasses (what would be the opposite of rose colored?), so my interpretation is different, of course.

One thing:
If we must accept that keyboard Juliet behavior is OK, then we should let the keyboard Romeo's have a free pass as well.  Too bad there isn't a way to hook them up.  They could fulfill each others needs while the rest of us pursue the real thing.