Holodomor Recognized

[Elen]

Despite the propaganda, ongoing coercion and threats, the people continued to resist through acts of rebellion and outright sabotage. They burned their own homes rather than surrender them. They took back their property, tools and farm animals from the collectives, harassed and even assassinated local Soviet authorities. This ultimately put them in direct conflict with the power and authority of Joseph Stalin.

Well sometimes your sourses write some truth as well
Add to that what I said you that they preffered to kill their farm animals rather than give them out to koolhos and ask yourself with WHAT they left to be able to feed somebody else in the country except themselves.

[Admin]

Stalin had his way blood one but rather effective What would be yours one? I would wnat to hear out your interesting point

No Elen - in this instance, Stalin's methods a were FAR worse than mere bloodlust. If he had taken troops and stormed into Ukraine and massacred 3.5 or 7 or 10 (pick your number) MILLION people by shooting them - then it would have been a horrible event, and genocide no doubt. Now recognize that Stalin made a series of decisions to accomplish the same DEATH TOLL - *BUT* those people died by inches. They died AFTER Stalin had stolen the work they had put in to grow the grain. They died while suffering through the misery of seeing their family members wither into skeletons. They died after knowing one member of their family may have eaten another member of their family.

There simply is NO JUSTIFICATION for that kind of decision - none.

- Dan

[Elen]

Elen, my citation of 26 countries comes from the Wikipedia reference. I also found a reference to "30 countries". You can Google the details as easily as I can.

I don't doubt your NUMBERS Dan I asked about what exactly contries were list those list - were there some ( except Canada) with an "independent" policy at world scene?
[quoteIs you question (indicated by the use of a question mark - ?) a sincere one - or are you wishing to make a point? If your question is rhetorical - as I suspect it is - then it deserves no answer. If it is sincere - ask it again.][/quote] Rethorical. Point was that mostly that issue is raised ( with a huge part of twisting facts) by those counteirs who used to sympathize facists and always were at "another" side.

OK - you make the point that anyone outside Russia MUST not know as much as someone inside Russia. Is it your understanding the the archived records and information pertaining to the famine in Ukraine - and the political events surrounding it - have ALL been released and are available for inspection?
 If your answer is NO - then, how can the actions of Stalin and his leadership be defended, since we clearly *DO* know some of the facts - and those are compellingly convictive of Stalin and his regime?

My point was that archive have been opened as there were no reason for our democrates to hide something about Stalin's crimes at all We heard enough about those events , with numbers even 3 times more than you give me now. (though it was before archive were opened Some how our fighter for freedom didn't manage to find proves to their numbers though they have try to do that very hard)  Beside I don't clear understand what exactly you hope to find in those hidden archives - some documents with Stalin's orders to kill all Ukrainiand in 1932? Or what?
  What you have read about "another" side of story I have not idea as I suspect soviet propaganda was not translated into English and puplished at first pages of your newspapers.

Tell me more. What was the class struggle? What I have read - at least, insofar as the struggle of the classes in Ukraine - is that the peasant farmers resisted collectivization (forced formation of farming cooperatives, essentially). To break the will of the resistance, Stalin's choice was to demand and extort huge quotas of grain that essentially robbed the Ukrainians of their ability to feed themselves. Moreover, the amount of grain demanded by Stalin robbed Ukraine of the NEEDED grain to plant for the following year - as a consequence, once the famine finally took 'hold' it was on a magnificent scale.

No need It was in your own acticle - how those Ukrainians preferred to burn their own houses, I can only add about such well known in those times phenomena like mass slaughter of home animals - the cows in first place. If you think that with such resistance it would be possible to feed country I don't know what to say. If you think that with agricultural on plow level it would be possible to feed country, to sell grain abroad as there were no other way to get money for industry - I don't know what to say you as well. PS My soviet propaganda didn't tell me that Satlin planned for the beginning to demand more from Ukraina in order to leave it without grain for next season.  If you have some proves to your statement I would be glad to hear them. How it was accodimng to my soviet propaganda I posted for you in previouse post .

No Elen - in this instance, Stalin's methods a were FAR worse than mere bloodlust. If he had taken troops and stormed into Ukraine and massacred 3.5 or 7 or 10 (pick your number) MILLION people by shooting them - then it would have been a horrible event, and genocide no doubt. Now recognize that Stalin made a series of decisions to accomplish the same DEATH TOLL - *BUT* those people died by inches. They died AFTER Stalin had stolen the work they had put in to grow the grain. They died while suffering through the misery of seeing their family members wither into skeletons. They died after knowing one member of their family may have eaten another member of their family.

If he wanted to kill them all he would stormed Ukraina for sure - don't doubt.  But what he wanted was to change a level of agriculture as fast as possible Without that the existance of the whole country was under big doubt
All who fought that - died. The guilt for the way those people died was not only at Stalin. Those local authorities should share the guilt too, as well as those who agitated those peasants to slaughter their cows and fight against collectivisation.

Say me once more that I'm Stalin's supporter - I'll swallow that, Just give me also YOUR HUMAN way to solve those problems with grain-with peasants wishing and able to feed only themselves-with limits for bread in towns - with blocade- with absent of money inside country -with absent of any industry to gain those money - with facing one more world war ( wich has proved later ( Germans documents does exists) was a war with a goal to vanish 90% of population here) and so on. Just even theoretical one.

There simply is NO JUSTIFICATION for that kind of decision - none.

There was no justification for that crime from me eighter. It was explanation of what were before that crime.

 And btw Americans somehow always managed to find those JUSTIFICATIONs ( well explanations)  in the cases with burned in nuclear fire Japane children for example or with those who burned under napalm, or died under bombs in Irag

No parralels just an attempt to show you that finding  JUSTIFICATIONs to crimes is always just a matter of what side you look at that.

[RacerX]

Elen ~

Putting aside your crude anti-American rhetoric expressed in the last sentence - btw, I'm not sure how this advances your argument, which until that point, I could partially follow, I for another wonder how it is you think that any of the confidential documents relating to Stalin's actions in 1932-33 have in any meaningful way been disclosed by the Soviets/Russians.  As late as 1986 a number of scholars  clearly stated this information was not available, and I can't see where any of the Ukrainian community (who closely follows these matters) have gotten into any of the Kremlin's archived materials starting from 1991 until the present.

Oh, btw, this "Canadian guy Douglas Tottle" who is best described as a Communist Union leader and part-time journalist, doesn't exactly have much in the way of scholarly credentials other than writing an obscure revisionist book on the subject.  His only "claim to fame" seems to be he may have shown that some of the grainy photos that were used to depict the 1933 disaster actually were taken in 1922.

Nonetheless, I was going to agree with you that there were so many mitigating factors in the 1932-33 famine, for example, drought  (possibly a repeat of the climactic conditions that caused the famine a decade earlier), a near civil war, and a desperate need for foreign "currency" that Stalin's actions may have been just a political blunder that could have just as easily been perpetrated on any other of the USSR regions given the opportunity to do so.

[Bruno]

Ps go anf find that book I recommend you though

I may do that. In the meantime, if you care to provide citations from your study, that would also be interesting.

[/quote]
 

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf ( 17 mb )... right click and save...

[Elen]

utting aside your crude anti-American rhetoric expressed in the last sentence - btw

Yeah? And what's were such anti-American there in my state that each time talks were started about those events I mentioned Americnas had a lot of "explanation: why it was needed to do. Any way that's what I have read million times at variouse boards and heard from your own president

I for another wonder how it is you think that any of the confidential documents relating to Stalin's actions in 1932-33 have in any meaningful way been disclosed by the Soviets/Russians.

Not by Soviet. I spoke about democrates in early 90s - those people had no reasons to hide anything about Stalin's crimes - otherwise the main goal of them was to find a documental proves to their own ideas and numbers they told us - believe me their viewpoints "surpass" even yours ones in hating all soviet. And I don't recall anyone of them "claimed" that archives was hidden from them thought they used to claim about anything.

and I can't see where any of the Ukrainian community (who closely follows these matters) have gotten into any of the Kremlin's archived materials starting from 1991 until the present.

Well and what was an official Russian answer at officila Ukrainaia request ? And again what exactly documents are you going to find in those mysteriouse archives?

Oh, btw, this "Canadian guy Douglas Tottle" who is best described as a Communist Union leader and part-time journalist, doesn't exactly have much in the way of scholarly credentials other than writing an obscure revisionist book on the subject.  His only "claim to fame" seems to be he may have shown that some of the grainy photos that were used to depict the 1933 disaster actually were taken in 1922.

Not only that but also that reporter who was a sourse of your information about famine in Ukraina have not been in Ukraina at all. And if you can prove that unedicated Canadian was wrong then do that. Al least he published his proves.

Nonetheless, I was going to agree with you that there were so many mitigating factors in the 1932-33 famine, for example, drought  (possibly a repeat of the climactic conditions that caused the famine a decade earlier), a near civil war, and a desperate need for foreign "currency" that Stalin's actions may have been just a political blunder that could have just as easily been perpetrated on any other of the USSR regions given the opportunity to do so.

Well at least my posts were not completely in vain

[Admin]

Nonetheless, I was going to agree with you that there were so many mitigating factors in the 1932-33 famine, for example, drought (possibly a repeat of the climactic conditions that caused the famine a decade earlier), a near civil war, and a desperate need for foreign “currency” that Stalin’s actions may have been just a political blunder that could have just as easily been perpetrated on any other of the USSR regions given the opportunity to do so.

That argument *may* have held true - EXCEPT - it was discovered in recent documents that Stalin ordered the famine regions of Ukraine CLOSED. No-one from the famine-stricken regions were allowed to leave. Here is an excerpt from an exceptionally well-written piece on the topic: "The final policy that crushed any hope of the Ukrainian peasants escaping these conditions, was the Passportization System established on December 27, 1932 by the All-Ukrainian Central Executive Committee and the Council of Peoples' Commissars. 35 The re-introduction of the internal passport prevented the starving peasants from leaving their villages to search for food either in the cities or beyond the Ukrainian border, to Russia or Belarus. 36 This effectively tied peasantry to the land, condemning them to death by starvation."

You can find the entire article (which also addresses Tottle's position) at this URL -- http://www.faminegenocide.com/2003-competition/01-maslo's_ukrainian_famine_of_1932-1933.html

Consider the stark contrast in death tolls for the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv and the Russian city of Belgorod - a mere 35 kilometers apart, but on different sides of the border. Here is an excerpt from the article: "He goes on to mention the contrast between adjacent areas on the Ukraine/Russia border. The distance between the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv and the Russian city of Belgorod is a mere thirty five kilometers, and both share the same climate and land conditions, yet evidence shows that only Kharkiv experienced a high mortality rate during the famine. "The fact that one was affected and the other was not can only be attributed to a deliberate policy to concentrate the famine geographically for political ends."

Once again - FWIW

- Dan

[Elen]

That argument *may* have held true - EXCEPT - it was discovered in recent documents that Stalin ordered the famine regions of Ukraine CLOSED.

We knew that fact from soviet times - Stalin input passport system ( due to wich peasnats could not move to towns because they had not passports) It has been done for all peasants but not only for Ukrainians.

BTW if you such informed about documents concerned those events in Ikraina may be you post here reports about grain crop which Ukrainians sent to Stalin, and accoding which things were OK there? There are enough of them in Ukrainian archives.
 

The distance between the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv and the Russian city of Belgorod is a mere thirty five kilometers, and both share the same climate and land conditions, yet evidence shows that only Kharkiv experienced a high mortality rate during the famine

Syach statement  shows little without numbers of grain target and harvest in both places  - post them and then we would discuss an issue was on nor Belgorod region in Stalin's favor

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]
[/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"] I believe what has been shown by  this thread and discussion is one Elen's obvious bias against America and very  possibly the overall bias within Russia today against America. With the complete  take over of the media by the Russian government the level of anti American  rhetoric has grown exponentially, we recently have been hearing an ear full from  my wife's sister and the level of disinformation is incredible. We receive  several Russian channels via the Dish Network and from what my wife tells me the  level of anti American propaganda is extreme. [/size][/color] [color="#0000ff"][size="4"][color="blue"] Elen's claims that Stalin was not so  bad and that America did worse shows her personal bias and more importantly that  there is much disinformation being disseminated within Russia and revisionist  history is alive and well[/color].[/size][/color]

[Elen]

And I belive that a purpose of Ukraine about that issue is not to gain ALL truth about those events ( because it would be obviouse that local Ukrainian authorities of those times were guilty as well) but to find one more reason to make claims to Russia ( still wonder why not to Georgia? ) - as that issue is always raised before elections ( when anti-russian card in a fight for voits is on a table once more ) or when Ukrainian leaders fail with their activity inside country, face troubles and are looking for something to catch an attention of electorate - like that was this time - issue popped up right during gas war.


Ps about my anti- americanism in this tread - go and count how many times I used the word America. If you can see only THAT in an ocean of others my words then it's called like some complex - forgot what its name was

Elen's claims that Stalin was not so bad

Helen gave you results od poll in the country I can translate for you what's there at that pictogramm if you wnat
Aslo I repeat I try to show you what things leaded to that terrible end and I can't get WHY it's so hard for you to understand that it was not the only one Stalin, there were a plenty of other reasons ( including actions of peasants themsleves and actions of local Ukrainian authorities)

[Jeff Mowatt]

Dan,  It was in 1933 that the closure of Ukraine was revealed in  the Manchester Guardian by a junior correspondent named Malcolm  Muggeridge who took the risk of travelling there without authorisation.  The diaries of Reader Bullard, British consul to Moscow at the time,  record some of  Malcolm's activities.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,6121,343398,00.html

Around the same time, Gareth Jones, a researcher employed by former  Prime Minister David Lloyd George turned journalist, offered congruent  evidence of the enforced famine. 

http://colley.co.uk/garethjones/

I knew nothing of this personally until about 10 years ago when a  friend who'd know Muggeridge got  permission from his surviving  brother Jack,  to edit and publish some of his early articles.

Such was the influence of the likes of Walter Duranty of the New York  Times and author George Bernard Shaw,  now known to be   Stalin apologists, that young  Muggeridge was villified and lost  his job. Jones was murdered whilst still in Soviet territory.  

Muggeridge wrote of the military occupation that enforced the famine and offered a prediction:     
"This,  I am convinced, is one of the most monstrous crimes in history, so terrible  that people in the future will scarcely be able to believe it ever happened."

  He  also made several references to the ethnicities of those Stalin   engaged  in the enforcement.  It made uncomfortable reading  for other influential factions which could be one of the reasons that  these articles are still unwelcome and that the debate on the Holdomor  still revolves around those who offered retrospective analysis rather  than eye-witness accounts.

 

       

   
 

[Charles]

Tiger, you make an excellent point.   Unlike Germany, who has had to apologize for Nazi atrocities and come to grips with this terrible past, the Russians have never fully recognized the horrors perpetrated by Stalin, both in Ukraine and following the Kirov murder for which millions were purged.  Elena is a living example of this and, unfortunately, she is not alone.  

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Charles,

[/size][/color] [color="blue"] [/color] [color="blue"][size="4"] Elen is a good example of what is  happening in Russia today, the country is being run by old Soviet era people who  are lost in the notion that Russia was and still is a world power. These people  are controlling the media and doing anything and everything possible to convince  the Russian public that they are not so bad off because if the people truly  realized their plight the current government would fall from power.

[/size][/color] [color="blue"][size="4"] I do not believe in Elen's lifetime  anyone will see anything resembling an apology for what happened under Soviet  rule, maybe sometime in the future when Russia grows up and out of the  collective self disillusion.[/size][/color]

[Jeff Mowatt]

If anyone wants  Russia to acknowledge the  Holdomor then it  seems logical that those that  lied to  cover it up should  first  be exposed.

http://ucca.org/famine/NYTimes.shtml

Otherwise how can we expect Russia to acknowledge what we don't admit to ourselves?

[wxman]

The problem is that countries do not like to admit to their dark past, much less apologize for it's actions. Russia with it's genocide of Ukrainians, Ukrainians helping Nazis murder Ukrainian Jews, United States with it's death marches of native Americans, Japan with it's slaughter of Chinese.  Russian, US, China and Western Europe sponsoring dictators during the cold war to slaughter their opposition with the blessings of their sponsors. It's the history of mankind. The conquerors have always slaughtered the conquered to strike fear and to control. Would it be nice for Russia to apologize, yes, but then keep the stage where it is, as the rest of the countries need to follow up on that stage to apologize. Get comfortable in your chair, as it is going to take plenty of time to hear all the apologies.

[Oosik]

My fiance knows of the famine from her grandmother.
Trucks and men came, they loaded up the produce from the fields, they took it to Russia (or north anyway).

People in the country starved. Apparently things were better in the cities, but then the Soviet goal was to privatize the farms, not wipe out city dwellers. I don't know where the city folks got food, but if they had jobs, they had money. The country people had neither, and so they died by the millions.

Her grandmother told her about cannibalism that happened.