Introduction - Scapegoat

[scapegoat]

Greetings and salutations,

Apparently an introduction and a little background are expected before one can fully utilize this website, so therefore I will attempt to provide sufficient information as to placate those with the power.

For the basics: single, never married, no children, and all round nice guy.

Why I am here: I peruse this site in order to garner additional information to allow myself to more wisely approach and be successful in pursuing and marrying a Russian woman.

There are many good opinions, thoughts, and observations expressed by the contributors of this forum.  I have found much of the information insightful and helpful.

I am the oldest of eight siblings of whom two have married foreign women.  One bride from Mexico and one bride from Ukraine.  The process and pitfalls of pursuing an international relationship are not unknown to me.

I have traveled twice to Belarus for dating and vacationing.  Fell in love with the area and the food but the women I dated.  I am not just a beginner in this process, however I do recognize that regardless of what stage of life we are in, we can generally still learn from the experiences of others.

I don't feel I have made any particular missteps or mistakes at this point in my grand adventure of seeking a Russian wife.  I was however forced to put my plans on hold for a couple of years due to the economic downturn which brought financial difficulties to my small business.  Oh well life goes on and I have adjusted and moved forward.

I am just now getting back into the saddle and starting the search and writing process again.  My personal belief is if one is not ready to travel and met a Russian woman then one shouldn't write the Russian woman.

You may be interested in why I am interested in pursuing a Russian woman and I am more than willing to share why with you.  I am using "Russian woman" in a general and overall encompassing fashion.  I also recognize there are all kinds of women in all kinds of places.  As such, please note the following is not meant to be a generalization of or my opinion of all Russian women.  I am looking for a woman with strength of character, interest and aptitude for intellectual development, ability and desire to make family a priority, and a warm and inviting smile.  I most certainly could find someone in the United States which would have such characteristics but I have not (in general) been impressed with women who are essentially the product of contemporary American culture.  Not saying American culture or women are wrong or bad; just saying that are not for me.  Further, I would prefer a wife who can bring additional culture and a different (non-American) point of view to the relationship.  I have dated women from many different countries (Examples: Macedonia, Germany, Spain, Belarus, Canada) and I have found I am most comfortable with women from the FSU.

I am NOT one to get carried away with chasing "19 year old model types who are seeking traditional marriage with good man up to 55 years old."  That might work for some people but I am a little more reserved and conservative in my approach.  Being something of an introvert, I recognize I could use a little help in this process.  I understand that many contributors to this forum are not fans of agencies and in general I would agree with you.  Agencies are tools not solutions.  I am not comfortable working with anyone (any agency) who doesn't know the women the purport to represent.  There is a difference between an introduction agency and a matchmaking agency.  The first cares primarily about providing opportunities for people to meet each other.  The second cares primarily about matching compatible partners together.   Even with help, there is no guarantee; but for some the help is much appreciated and of significant worth. 

The is idea of what is traditional or normal is dependent upon the perspective of each individual.  The life some people live can often preclude the more common opportunities for "traditional" courting.

Oops, I am starting to ramble again.

I know I didn't tell you much about myself but reading the above should give you some insight into what kind of person I am.

One final item.  For those wondering why my ID is "scapegoat".  It is in reference to the Scapegoat Wilderness in Montana, USA.  Along with the Bob Marshal Wilderness, it is arguably (and with some prejudice) among the wildest and most beautiful land in the lower 48 states.

[Kuna]

Welcome to RWD...

I'm sure there are many men here who would be happy to help out as your journey continues.

There will be LOTS of different (and strong) opinions on what is right and wrong.  I'd just suggest you take all of the advice given and use what is best for you.

All the best,

Kuna

[Faux Pas]

scapegoat

Welcome to RWD!

Jump in anywhere you feel comfy, warm and fuzzy, compelled to help or just generally pizzed off. Lots of good stuff to help you with your endeavor some with sugar,  some with a sledgehammer and some just no help at all.

[ML]

Welcome to the madhouse.

It was nice of you to lay out your background, experiences, and reasoning.

However, I hate to burst your FSUW bubble . . . but women are women mostly the world around.

There are only some slight differences from region to region, and some of the differences may not go the way you want.

For the Eastern European  women, there is are basically only two aspects that may appeal to you.  One, you can 'trade up' with respect to several variables such as education, facial looks, and age (in this case a trade down).  By trade up, I mean that you can attract an Eastern European woman that you could not attract if she were a western woman. Note:  The Eastern European women are not better looking or more educated than western women in general, but you can trade up along the spectrum.

The second aspect that appeals to most men is that the Eastern European women are generally more slender than western women in each age group.

And don't buy into any agency BS that Eastern European women are more family oriented, kinder, more loyal, less materialistic, more honest, less career oriented, etc., etc., than Western women. Some may be, some may not be.

So simplify your life and search by eliminating the fantasy and just focusing on the fact that you can 'trade-up' with Eastern European women even though, as a group, they are no better or worse than women in other countries.

Concerning this ability to trade-up.  It is not because you are a stud-muffin.  It is simply due to economics.  Not very romantic sounding but it is true.  However, this does not mean that you can  not find a woman to love and who will love you; but never lose sight of the fact that it starts with economics.

Because it starts with economics, be careful in how far you trade-up.  The farther you trade-up, the probability increases that the Gal will leave you once she gets established in the Western country.

[scapegoat]

ML

Thank you for your well thought out comments.

The FSUW bubble isn't burst.  It really was never there.  I agree.  Women are women mostly the world around. 

Sure there are slight differences between regions and cultures and generally they are not that significant, but they can be significant.  My brother who married the Mexican lady most definitely enjoys different culinary delights at home than I am generally comfortable with; sometimes the little things can be relevant.

The aspects of appeal regarding trading up are relevant.  The last girl I dated in the US was 10 years younger than me, educated, slender, and otherwise quite the catch.  She didn't want kids and I did.  Women are women just about anywhere one goes.  Different types can be found in all cultures.  My understanding of "trading up" is it is statistically more probable to trade up certain variables (such as those you mentioned) amongst the general Eastern European population than within my own population group.   

The aspect of "trading up" is not without merit and I mostly certainly don't buy in to the BS about the common generalization of Eastern European women often presented by agencies.   

If I am going to chase a good woman, why limit my chase to my own local culture / region.  For me, it isn't much of sacrifice (financially or temporally) to expand my chase to other areas of the world.  Cultural diversity within a relationship can often be very enriching for a couple.  But culture should never define or be a limiting influence in a relationship. 

Economics is very relevant in nearly every relationship, both foreign and domestic.  I have seen many marriages fail due to one or both spouses failing to recognize the impact of economics within their marriage.

All the characteristics that I am looking for in a good woman are by no means limited to just FSU women.  But I have traveled enough to appreciate the culinary differences between different regions.  My palate is quite comfortable with the local cuisine found in Belarus and western Russia.  (Besides I think it would be nice to celebrate two Christmases.)   

I try to keep an open mind about the whole process. 

And on another note, I believe there are many benefits to having ones in-laws on another continent.

Never been one taken too much with romantics.  I have for some time considered a successful marriage has very little to do with love or romance.  By no means do I mean there is not a place for romance and love, but they aren't necessary for success.  There have been many a successful marriage where love and romance became distant memories for the couple; sad but true.  IMO, success in marriage is a result of a lot of THC: trust, hard work, and commitment.  (I expect a number of people to disagree with this opinion.)   

Hmm, you do bring up a very interesting point: how far one should trade up.  Never considered it much of an issue considering I wasn't looking to trade up very much to begin with.  I do believe this is where many a man has made a tragic mistake.  One must be brutally honest with himself and his expectations.  My father taught me that if one wishes to attract a certain type of girl, then one must be the kind of man the girl would be attracted to.  Trade up too far and one is likely to find the girl really isn't attracted to you and they will leave.  Happens with both foreign and domestic relationships.

[jeff9556]

IMO, success in marriage is a result of a lot of THC: trust, hard work, and commitment.

For a moment there I thought you were going to say tetrahydrocannabinol... 

Welcome scapegoat, I am new around here as well, but like you not unfamiliar with this process (I married a foreign women and moved half way around the world to be with her, sadly that is now over, so I am looking again).

[Patagonie]

Welcome to the madhouse.

It was nice of you to lay out your background, experiences, and reasoning.

However, I hate to burst your FSUW bubble . . . but women are women mostly the world around.

There are only some slight differences from region to region, and some of the differences may not go the way you want.

For the Eastern European  women, there is are basically only two aspects that may appeal to you.  One, you can 'trade up' with respect to several variables such as education, facial looks, and age (in this case a trade down).  By trade up, I mean that you can attract an Eastern European woman that you could not attract if she were a western woman. Note:  The Eastern European women are not better looking or more educated than western women in general, but you can trade up along the spectrum.

The second aspect that appeals to most men is that the Eastern European women are generally more slender than western women in each age group.

And don't buy into any agency BS that Eastern European women are more family oriented, kinder, more loyal, less materialistic, more honest, less career oriented, etc., etc., than Western women. Some may be, some may not be.

So simplify your life and search by eliminating the fantasy and just focusing on the fact that you can 'trade-up' with Eastern European women even though, as a group, they are no better or worse than women in other countries.

Concerning this ability to trade-up.  It is not because you are a stud-muffin.  It is simply due to economics.  Not very romantic sounding but it is true.  However, this does not mean that you can  not find a woman to love and who will love you; but never lose sight of the fact that it starts with economics.

Because it starts with economics, be careful in how far you trade-up.  The farther you trade-up, the probability increases that the Gal will leave you once she gets established in the Western country.

ML i don't agree with you, in my opinion the 25-40 age women are in AVERAGE better looking than US or Europe women. It's the first thing you can notice everywhere in Ukraine after a walk in every city, at anytime.
About education the same i have found them in average more educated than women in my country. But i would be more cautious about this however.

[sniper]

ML i don't agree with you, in my opinion the 25-40 age women are in AVERAGE better looking than US or Europe women. It's the first thing you can notice everywhere in Ukraine after a walk in every city, at anytime.
About education the same i have found them in average more educated than women in my country. But i would be more cautious about this however.

Whats good-looking for you guys? I personally like how women look here in States The only thing is that they seem dolled up ALL the time unlike our women. May be its location though, Im in El Paso, TX which cant be considered USA in my opinion.
I dont know how educated are women in France. But I doubt they are less educated than Ukrainians. Just look at french spelling! Its crazy! C R A Z Y!
 Meh...who cares? Its France, country of Chanel and Château Margaux ))
So they are educated enough to spell and not to wear zebra pattern shoes on a red platform AND feather earrings AND crazy glittery dresses
And women in Russia(idk about Ukraine) often cant spell, especially younger women like ones in their twenties. Spelling isnt even as complicated as French!

But my question is my good looking do yall mean like naturally good looking or how well a woman takes care of herself? Or both?

[ML]

Whats good-looking for you guys?

Good looking refers to natural aspects.

i.e. How does the woman look wearing a plain loose fitting dress with no makeup.

It usually refers to the face only.

For body, we have other words such as: knockout, fantastic, to die for, etc.

But, of course, everyone can have their own ideas about this.

[ML]

ML i don't agree with you, in my opinion the 25-40 age women are in AVERAGE better looking than US or Europe women. It's the first thing you can notice everywhere in Ukraine after a walk in every city, at anytime.
About education the same i have found them in average more educated than women in my country. But i would be more cautious about this however.

Pat, yours is a common misconception due to a couple of factors.

First, you are right that a walking tour will give an indication of a higher proportion of 'lookers' in FSU.

But the reason is that the 'lookers' is the west are not walking on the street.  They drive to work and then into the underground parking garage, and then take the elevator to their high profile job with a law firm, CPA firm, investment banking firm, etc.

Second, sampling bias also occurs regarding education.  The dating websites in FSU are dominated by women with higher educations than average.  This is because it takes a little more moxie in FSU to do this. 

In the west, the high education gals are not on  such websites.  They have plenty to pick from right in their own high profile companies.

The west is full of beautiful, highly intelligent, highly educated women with knockout bodies.  But you won't be finding them in any of the venues that you will find such FSU women.  And even if you do find them, they will not be available to you.  Economics.

[Muzh]

Whats good-looking for you guys? I personally like how women look here in States The only thing is that they seem dolled up ALL the time unlike our women. May be its location though, Im in El Paso, TX which cant be considered USA in my opinion.
I dont know how educated are women in France. But I doubt they are less educated than Ukrainians. Just look at french spelling! Its crazy! C R A Z Y!
 Meh...who cares? Its France, country of Chanel and Château Margaux ))
So they are educated enough to spell and not to wear zebra pattern shoes on a red platform AND feather earrings AND crazy glittery dresses
And women in Russia(idk about Ukraine) often cant spell, especially younger women like ones in their twenties. Spelling isnt even as complicated as French!

But my question is my good looking do yall mean like naturally good looking or how well a woman takes care of herself? Or both?

Sniper, thanks for the candid report.

I'm still trying to find this place in the US where all women are overweight behemoths so I can understand your questions.

Regarding ladies from the former Soyuz, they do have a look that is quite different from what you find here. Just like some South American women have that look that is different from here, and so on. BUT, they are still women. And you have beautiful ones and not-so beautiful ones. But who's to tell which one is beautiful and which one is not?

Scapegoat, I'm glad that you are doing this to expand your cultural horizons. That's as good reason as any other. And as you know, to be successful at this you have to go at it with an open mind.

Enjoy your search.

[sniper]

I'm still trying to find this place in the US where all women are overweight behemoths so I can understand your questions.

Dont get your point, sorry. And didnt try to report. Just opinion.

Regarding ladies from the former Soyuz, they do have a look that is quite different from what you find here. Just like some South American women have that look that is different from here, and so on. BUT, they are still women. And you have beautiful ones and not-so beautiful ones. But who's to tell which one is beautiful and which one is not?

I understand. Its that I am being asked about it all the time, wanted to understand what is meant. People always ask about the weather and if its true that Russian girls are really beautiful. And well heres when I get confused...its hard to see beauty in local women cuz they dress like hookers and use tons of make up. So I was trying to understand..

[Faux Pas]

Whats good-looking for you guys? I personally like how women look here in States The only thing is that they seem dolled up ALL the time unlike our women. May be its location though, Im in El Paso, TX which cant be considered USA in my opinion.

Dont get your point, sorry. And didnt try to report. Just opinion.

sniper, your candid unbiased opinion is quite refreshing. Although, probably half the WM that come around RWD will disagree with you. Actually, I think Muzh was agreeing with you but, he can correct me if I am wrong.

El Paso while on the fringes can still be considered the US maybe not as quite main stream but, still representitive.

I say you are correct. There are a great many of the female population of the US that could well hold their own or even improve the decor of the FSU. Many beautiful, slender and educated as well. Most of the demeaning negatives of American women you read on the forums are largely from men who were unsuccessful with the American women and rather than admit or even consider the rejection problem is "his", many would rather proclaim something is wrong with the women i.e. fat, lazy, demanding ect. ect..

I only point this out to you so that you can consider the source when you read such proclamations. I would go so far as say that is 90% of the men making those statements actually have social problems and the other 10% are just lying or parroting what someone else has said. 

[Patagonie]

Whats good-looking for you guys? I personally like how women look here in States The only thing is that they seem dolled up ALL the time unlike our women. May be its location though, Im in El Paso, TX which cant be considered USA in my opinion.
I dont know how educated are women in France. But I doubt they are less educated than Ukrainians. Just look at french spelling! Its crazy! C R A Z Y!
 Meh...who cares? Its France, country of Chanel and Château Margaux ))
So they are educated enough to spell and not to wear zebra pattern shoes on a red platform AND feather earrings AND crazy glittery dresses
And women in Russia(idk about Ukraine) often cant spell, especially younger women like ones in their twenties. Spelling isnt even as complicated as French!

But my question is my good looking do yall mean like naturally good looking or how well a woman takes care of herself? Or both?

Hello Sniper, welcome to the site. For me good looking it's a mix between feminine and krasivaya. For the last one you are born and a body and you cannot really change it, just change the way to set it out. So clothes and make up help a lot. But feminine is also more than that.

I would tell you that i'm learning russia and it's more difficult then french. I suppose that accents are difficult to understand for a foreigner, i think it's perhaps why french is a little special. About young generations here they have a very bad spelling because education is less and less accurate in spelling and good writing.

To be honest i really like how fsu women are dressed and i consider in AVERAGE that they are and more feminine dressed and more beautiful. And i have travelled a lot, dated a lot, and also hang up a lot. In my job there are 350 people with more women than men and so it gives a good statistical picture. Among 200 only 3 or 4 has taste and are well dressed, man's opinion.

If you like clothes (man, because i don't wear woman clothes  , you can have a look at http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13384.75

[Faux Pas]

To be honest i really like how fsu women are dressed and i consider in AVERAGE that they are and more feminine dressed and more beautiful. And i have travelled a lot, dated a lot, and also hang up a lot. In my job there are 350 people with more women than men and so it gives a good statistical picture. Among 200 only 3 or 4 has taste and are well dressed, man's opinion.

I got to tell you guy, I was fairly recently in Paris and I saw as many beautifully, sexy well dressed women as I have seen in St Petersburg or Moscow. I wasn't making reports or writing down numbers but, I can say I was thoroughly impressed with the french women. The same thing can be said for Dallas, Atlanta or any other city as well

[sniper]

I got to tell you guy, I was fairly recently in Paris and I saw as many beautifully, sexy well dressed women as I have seen in St Petersburg or Moscow. I wasn't making reports or writing down numbers but, I can say I was thoroughly impressed with the french women. The same thing can be said for Dallas, Atlanta or any other city as well

Atlanta? Really?

Well, I believe tastes significantlydiffer. I just hate how Russian and Ukrainian girls beauty is by far overestimated by foreigners. And how American women beauty is underestimated.

 

Hello Sniper, welcome to the site. For me good looking it's a mix between feminine and krasivaya. For the last one you are born and a body and you cannot really change it, just change the way to set it out. So clothes and make up help a lot. But feminine is also more than that.
 
 I would tell you that i'm learning russia and it's more difficult then french. 

Feminine! Thats the thing. Dont know what exactly you mean, but yes. I think that women here in States cant be women any more, chasing all those equal rights stuff. We can be women, we are OK with men making more money and being a leader in the family, if you know what I mean. Thats why say if both girls are pretty(amerucan and russian) a man would choose the one with whom he could feel more manly, would feel like he provides and supports and that he isnt taken for granted, not like american girls are drilled to demonstrate 'you are no big deal, I am all independent and on my own' attitude. May be thats the thing. idk. You men are just weird 

[Faux Pas]

Atlanta? Really?

Well, I believe tastes significantlydiffer. I just hate how Russian and Ukrainian girls beauty is by far overestimated by foreigners. And how American women beauty is underestimated.

Yah really. Most Metro areas do. There does seem to be a significantly larger portion of beauties in Russia and Ukraine but, I tend to think it might be presentation. Something as Patagonie has alluded to. More women taking more care to present their feminine sides