Dependence and Diamonds in the rough

[TheTraveler]

ON DEPENDENCE:  This comes in degrees as a result of career and family.  A brain surgeon is very pre-occupied almost all the time. A woman with 5 children is similarly occupied - but in very different directions.   On a separate thread I suggested that I would not be too excited with the prospects of marrying a woman who had a 60 hour a week job.  The idea of us at the diner table both checking our text and emails does not interest me LOL.    The polar opposite idea is that a woman is KEPT, and dependent for everything by the man.   What happen to normal?   How about being a teacher or working for government:)  Or an online business?  There are many ways to earn a few grand a month and occupy 30 hours a week, so a person feels like they are useful and not TRAPPED in a house.

This is great stuff.
 
When my business reached the point of stability, I came up for air and found myself in my mid thirties and still single.  And what happened during my build period was that the family-type American women had mostly gotten married... leaving me to deal with what I would call 'career women': women who were pre-occupied with their work and unwilling to allow their careers to take a secondary role to their family or to a husband's work (plus divorced and or generally psycho women).  Did they become career women because they did not find a man?.... Or did they never find a man because they were career women?  IMO, it was usually (B).
 
Look, if a guy is struggling with a $20K/yr salary, then maybe it makes sense to have equal careers with the woman.  In that case, though, he should take on equal care of the home and kids.  But if a guy has a high-end career, he doesn't walk in the door every evening at 5:00, and he may travel quite a bit, too.  He cannot possibly spend the time it takes to: help the kids with their homework, feed them, dress them, shop for them, drive/pick them up from private school, dance classes, gymnastics, soccer, basketball, Russian-language school, etc...  All that is a full-time job.  Yes, you can get a nanny to do all that, but will the nanny raise the kids the way you really want?
 
In my observations over the years of Husband/Wife roles in Russia, an undue burden is placed on wives... In Soviet times, women were expected (forced) to work outside the home.  But they were also responsible for the upkeep of the apartment and taking care of the kids, too.  Men as a result became soft.  I have a view the husband should bring home serious money, so that the wife should not have to burn both ends of the candle.  It's not about putting the wife on a pedestal -- It's about different but equally important family roles for husband and wife.

ON DIAMONDS IN THE ROUGH:  In the USA, anyone with effort, has a chance - if one is beautiful, even more so.   Not so in South America.  It is VERY classist.  When I first saw this, it offended my sensibilities and ideas of fairness.  But, after I spent more time in Brazil and Colombia, I began to accept the sad truth that many / most of those that are brought up in poverty are damaged at the core.   That is why often times when a man sees a Beauty Queen, Drop Dead Gorgeous, young woman - the first impression is "little devil".   Again this is a sad generalization, but grounded in more than a little truth.   How does Eastern Europe / Russia differ?

What you stated was, for me, an important distinction.  In the FSU, you have fine people who suffer from poverty as a resultof a lack of freedom and economic opportunity.  In the US, poor people in general have no one to blame but themselves and their own lack of ingenuity or effort.  I've seen it often -- immigrants from former-communist countries who begin to thrive economically in the US.

[ghost of moon goddess]

Rivardco,

Me thinks that you analyze too much and stereotype too much. 

Although you may have preconceptions about the type of woman who is ideal for you, there are too many variables in the equation.   Over your many, many years of dating women, don't you think it odd that you never met Ms. Right.  I assert that you have met dozens of Ms. Right, yet you were too (fill in the blank) or she was too  (fill in the blank).   Have you filled in the blanks?   What do the answers say? ...

I assume that Rivardco would find his peace with a woman able to tame him, keeping this ladies' man on the straight and narrow.   

[Turboguy]

I assume that Rivardco would find his peace with a woman able to tame him, keeping this ladies' man on the straight and narrow.   

Did anyone ever figure out if Brave Girl is single?   

[IAmZon]

Rivardco,   You have many good years remaining, hopefully your best.   Rather than continuing your past lifestyle it seems that you want a to enjoy these years with a woman.  That is the law of our species IMO (psychaitrists say we are hardwired to live as couples).    Up to now you have disobeyed this law.  However, up to now you have led an interesting life.   To tell your story would probably take installments, some of which we should not reveal (especially those with the initials DR).       Why have you now changed?   

First, change is a God Damn Good Thing - IMO.    As I found myself single and without dependents (children), and in the middle of a business melt down cycle, I took a couple years to live the life that you find only in interviews of the Rolling Stone.  South America became my playground (notice after the DR and Costa Rica and Panama).  And, short version: it was the best thing I have ever done.   WOW! 

Why did I not find Ms. Right?  Dude, I was on an adventure - high speed rush. I was not packing chocolates and roses!  Caring about making a favorable impression on any given woman was not my objective.  I was looking for the edge of life - the place where a man spontaneously pisses his pants.   

Naturally, I did not live my whole life in this way.  In fact there was a stretch there, where I missed 6 years of vacations because of some important business goal that since has been long forgotten.   I never intended my life to become ONLY a series of adventures, extreme sports, and hot women either.  It was a phase.  I was willing and able - Thank You God!

Timing is everything in life.  This year, I have become more serious about business goals.  Similarly, I have become more serious in terms of seeking a fully functioning relationship too.

I think a man needs to be drunk in order to understand and appreciate sobriety.

[Doll]

Did they become career women because they did not find a man?.... Or did they never find a man because they were career women?  IMO, it was usually (B).

I think it is 50x50

[mies]

I took a couple years to live the life that you find only in interviews of the Rolling Stone.

married, with children, famous, and fooling around with models and groopies while doing booze and drugs?

[Lily]

   Did they become career women because they did not find a man?.... Or did they never find a man because they were career women?  IMO, it was usually (B).
 

The Traveller, this story is not as easy as it seems. I for instance believe that there are not many women who were indeed about to make a choice between family and career, and who decided in favour of the latter. This is a tough choice, really.
 
 A number of people just do what they can do in life. Often it's nothing else but work. The reason of it is, as I wrote on RWD a while ago, that what we do for work or business is being done according to the reasonable criteria. This is something where we have a certain power, and where we make an educated and informed choice. This part of human life is governed by reason, and is therefore generally under our control.
 
The other part of human life that consists of attracting the opposite gender and leads to marriage and family, is beyond the reasonable criteria. Therefore, people don't have this part under their control. You can not earn or deserve the love of the person that you want. That's quite an opposite of what we observe in the working, or career life.
 

 => Excellent points Lilly!  So, if a woman is 30, for example, is she a part of this beneficial time period?  (I hope you are happy in Canada)
 

Tim,
 
Your question was about general tendencies in society, so my reply was about the same tendency in Russian society.
 
Now if you ask about an individual case, some more factors should be taken into account. I have only a vague idea about the time when Soviet educational and cultural system started falling apart. May be it was the time around 90x. In addition, one should account her individual circumstances and own natural inclinations. Look, even the worst economical cicumstances are not a hindrance for a gifted, striong willed and determined person!
 
And yes, immigrating to Canada was among my best life decisions ever! Thanks for asking.
 
 

[Buffalo Dan]

Good answer lily, I don't understand the thought process. Men in US take care of both ends, family and work. I belive, home life is more important. women and children love when dad is home, helping with homework and projects. wife feels good, because she can have some time away,  and catch her breath from home life. it is a very delicate balance. otherwise, it is a nany raising your offspring. except, you call her your wife.

[BillyB]

Doll, you've certainly missed a lot!
 
BillyB just married the 18y.o. tall-blond-gorgeous--model looking Ukrainian girl who seemingly agrees to play  the "classically traditional marriage" game. Go check out his thread "Life Changes Part Two", he posted lots of photos.

It's a long thread that seems to keep getting better with time.

 

Do you believe in miracles now?

I suggest the OP pays Billy for some "how to" lessons

 
Nobody has to pay! As I demonstrated early in my thread, I was happy and successful as a single man and now I will be happy and successful as a married man. Some may assume Rivardco doesn't know what he wants but he can still be very happy where he's at as a single man until he finds a path that makes him happier. He should not switch gears so quick.   No guarantee but the right girl may come along someday as long as he doesn't hold onto the wrong girls too long.

[Doll]

BillyB, how old are you? I forgot.
Do you want children with your wife?

[Gator]

BillyB, how old are you? I forgot.
Do you want children with your wife?

See. RW are direct, some especially so.

[TheTraveler]

Good answer lily, I don't understand the thought process. Men in US take care of both ends, family and work. I belive, home life is more important. women and children love when dad is home, helping with homework and projects. wife feels good, because she can have some time away,  and catch her breath from home life. it is a very delicate balance. otherwise, it is a nany raising your offspring. except, you call her your wife.

How many kids do you and your Russian wife have?
 

[IAmZon]

As I demonstrated early in my thread, I was happy and successful as a single man and now I will be happy and successful as a married man. Some may assume Rivardco doesn't know what he wants but he can still be very happy where he's at as a single man until he finds a path that makes him happier. He should not switch gears so quick.   No guarantee but the right girl may come along someday as long as he doesn't hold onto the wrong girls too long.

EXACTLY, Billy!    There is an assumption that IF YOU ARE MARRIED, your a winner.  IF YOU ARE LOOKING, you are broken.  I am not like a piece of Swiss Cheese with holes in me.  The truth is, I can keep on doing my Steve Tyler impersonation for 7 more years, before I settle down with a very nice woman that is attractive and well meaning and half my age.

Earlier someone suggested that I would be happy when I find my equal - that is exactly the case.   Until then ... next weekend I am going to Baranquilla for Carnival; afterwards, a couple days for some scuba in Santa Marta. How many foreign dates do I have lined up?  NADA:)   WHY?  It is too easy to find someone, and too difficult to find the right one.

[Doll]

See. RW are direct, some especially so.

Well, by now I understand how to speak "American" (never say anything directly). But here we can afford it)))))))).
Yes, one of the major difference between Russias and Americans is that Russians are more open.
I actually forgot Billy's age.
BTW, we, RW, were asked tons of direct questions here. Remember? About money (how much), about everything.
 
I hate sugarcoating, it is a very tiring thing, guys.

[Lily]

Good answer lily, I don't understand the thought process. 

To put it simple, I meant that it is easier to start a career than to start a family. That's why some people don't have to make this choice, as they don't have one. It may be just the career that they have.

[Buffalo Dan]

I do not have any offspring, i do have 34 nieces and nephews. i believe, i have a good grasp of child rearing. doesn't matter, country of origin. same, same. i mean, basic needs of household. ya know, Donald Trump have same issues.

[Misha]

Or an online business?  There are many ways to earn a few grand a month and occupy 30 hours a week, so a person feels like they are useful and not TRAPPED in a house. 

Personally, I did not want a "traditional" wife. However, my work does take a bit of time. The ideal for me: helping my wife establish a career in Canada that will make her happy. It may be part-time, it may be doing contract work from home, it may be something else, but I believe it is important for her to have some kind of work for her personal fulfilment and long-term financial security...

[Gator]

To put it simple, I meant that it is easier to start a career than to start a family. That's why some people don't have to make this choice, as they don't have one. It may be just the career that they have.

Exactly, and it is easy and frequently beneficial to change jobs/careers.

[BillyB]

BillyB, how old are you? I forgot.

I understand why I didn't recieve a birthday present from you but I forgive. I just turned 42. My wife will turn 20 in a few months.
 

Do you want children with your wife?

I'm open to having kids at this time in my life. Certainly my wife wants kids in a few years but first we agree to have some fun.

[Doll]

Thanks, Billy.
23 years! Wow!
 

[Donna_Pedro]

A while ago I started a topic  like this.  I and someone (Gator?) posted a story about a woman he used to date in Russia.  He had invited her to dinner and while she was talking, she had  a fork with food on  it in her hand, using it to point to things. And I do remember the man said something like "I imagined bringing IT to dinner with my friends.  I think that was their last date. This a danger of picking diamonds out of rough. They might be nice a beautiful to look at , but wait until "a diamond" opens its mouth  or demonstrates its table manners. Do not forget - you will have to introduce it to your friends.

[TheTraveler]

I don't understand the thought process. Men in US take care of both ends, family and work. I belive, home life is more important. women and children love when dad is home, helping with homework and projects. wife feels good, because she can have some time away,  and catch her breath from home life. it is a very delicate balance. otherwise, it is a nany raising your offspring. except, you call her your wife.

The sensitive man!  Of course, this type of argument is basically a straw man (wikipedia it, if you don't understand), since Rivardco (and I) were both clearly referring to 60-hour per week 'career women'.  Generally, I believe that most women prefer a man with whom work is a choice --- not a requirement to survive.  And then only as family life allows.
 
I'm not ashamed to say I don't want or need the headaches that would accompany the career-first type of woman.  Most of the career-ladder types that I dated long ago are, unsurprisingly, still single.  Here's their conundrum... Those types want a professional man with culture and education and a high-end career, too.-- but that man doesn't want her.  The man who she is most compatible with is the guy with a not-very-demanding job who can be the 'house-husband' while she is on business travel or working late at the office -- but she doesn't respect or want that kind of man.

 

I do not have any offspring, i do have 34 nieces and nephews. i believe, i have a good grasp of child rearing.

An 'uncle'?  Wow!  LOL!

[OlgaH]

He had invited her to dinner and while she was talking, she had  a fork with food on  it in her hand, using it to point to things.

We had a usual Moscow committee and there was a madame exactly with the same manner.  She was not just pointed with her fork with food on it she was waiving it. Scary moments 

about some diamonds out of rough (никак на сошиалс едет    )

[Gator]

Do not forget - you will have to introduce it to your friends.

Do not forget - you will have to introduce it to your friends.   
In this case this is not a Russian translation of her.  "It" is appropriate.
 
DP, you have a good memory. The scene was far worse than her waving her fork. 
 
It was ny first trip in 2002.  She was a medical doctor from near Kharkiv.  She met me in Yalta and we stayed at the best hotel there (Oleander IIRC). 
 
At a buffet lunch she served herself a slice of roast beef.  Rather than cutting the beef on her plate into small bites, she picked up the whole piece with her fork, let it dangle over her plate, tilted and lowered her head, and then chewed at the end away from the fork!!!!!!  What could I say?  It seemed to shock even the waiter.
 

[ML]

Perhaps she was a surgeon and thought that knives were only for more serious use.