It appears you have not registered with our community. To register please click here ...

!!

Welcome to Russian Women Discussion - the most informative site for all things related to serious long-term relationships and marriage to a partner from the Former Soviet Union countries!

Please register (it's free!) to gain full access to the many features and benefits of the site. Welcome!

+-

Author Topic: 1947 US Policy Regarding USSR - Still Relevant?  (Read 2776 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16987
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
1947 US Policy Regarding USSR - Still Relevant?
« on: January 16, 2017, 04:15:18 PM »
In 1947 the world was recovering from WW II.  The US was the preeminent power in the world.  The USSR had not yet developed nuclear weapons, yet was supporting Communist revolts in Greece and Turkey, prompting the Truman Doctrine. 

George Kennan in 1947 became the head of the State Dept's policy planning staff, a new organization.  He had previously served in the American embassy in Moscow.  He published in 1947 under the pseudonym "Mr. X" a paper entitled The Sources of Soviet Conduct.  It drew opposition as not being more confrontational  (e.g, free Eastern Europe), yet  it became the basis for America's global policy to contain Soviet aggression.

Exerpts of the paper are found here: 

http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/archive/resources/documents/ch31_02.htm
 
and elsewhere in more detail..

Truman and all subsequent Presidents followed the containment policy, eventually resulting in the collapse of the USSR in 1991.   

Since 1991, the US has followed a relaxed attitude towards Russia, yet kept the containment policy by adding from 1999 to 2009 12 more member nations to NATO (10 former Warsaw Pact members and 2 former Yugoslav republics).   

Obama seemed to pursue a more relaxed attitude.  Obama in the 2012 election debates  mocked Romney's claim that Russia is America's greatest geopolitical foe.  Time proved Obama wrong, as Putin since then has continued to rebuild Russia's military and has made multiple aggressive moves on the world's stage.  The Russian move into Ukraine is seen as Putin's answer to prevent containment.

Many contend that Putin's aggressiveness proves Kennan's research of 1947 applies today.  Does it?

In the Trump-Clinton debates of 2016, Trump expressed his intentions not to contain Russia, but  to work with Russia in an attempt to support world stability.   This seems more cavalier than Obama's approach. 

After Clinton unexpectedly lost the election to Trump, Obama has suddenly turned into a hawk.  In his final two months in office, Obama has taken measures, e. g., additional sanctions, to punish Russia.  The press has picked up on this, and it has been a long time since Russia has been considered such a threat. 

Meanwhile Trump is considering a meeting soon with Putin to negotiate a reduction in nuclear arms.  Trump, as did Obama, is departing from the historic policy of containment, not just with the proposed meeting, but with talk about reducing sanctions, comments that NATO is "obsolete" and not paying its share of costs, etc. 

Obama's outgoing CIA Director, Brennan, has suggested Trump’s openness to friendship with Russia could originate from a lack of knowledge.  He is quoted as saying, "I don’t think he has a full appreciation of Russian capabilities, Russians’ intentions, and actions that they are undertaking in many parts of the world."   

I voted for Trump in the election and voted against him in the primary.  I support Trump but do not trust Putin.  I trust Trump and Tillerson  to not give us a treaty as unbalanced as the one with Iran, so is there anything to lose is letting them try?    Talking heads suggest China is our largest threat, and Trump needs Putin as an ally to make better deals with China.

RWD members have a better understanding of Russia than the ordinary citizen and should be able to contribute special insights. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 07:13:31 PM by Gator »

Offline Bounder

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 345
  • Country: ru
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: 4 - 10
Re: 1947 US Policy Regarding USSR - Still Relevant?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 05:17:54 PM »
Hi Gator, let me take a stab at this to get the ball rolling.  As you can see, I basically object to how you have framed the situation.

Truman and all subsequent Presidents followed the containment policy, eventually resulting in the collapse of the USSR in 1991.   

In my view it is naive and a bit silly to casually give the US credit for the collapse of the USSR like this.  It was the USSR’s own internal flaws that led to its dissolution.

Quote
Since 1991, the US has followed a relaxed attitude towards Russia, yet kept the containment policy by adding from 1999 to 2009 12 more member nations to NATO (10 former Warsaw Pact members and 2 former Yugoslav republics).   

I doubt any real and sincere effort was ever made to include Russia in an expanded NATO.  The US attitude to Russia was hardly relaxed.

Quote
Obama seemed to pursue a more relaxed attitude.  Obama in the 2012 election debates  mocked Romney's claim that Russia is America's greatest geopolitical foe.  Time proved Obama wrong, as Putin since then has continued to rebuild Russia's military and has made multiple aggressive moves on the world's stage.  The Russian move into Ukraine is seen as Putin's answer to prevent containment.

No, Obama was right the first time.  In my lfietime I have never seen a sincere true attempt by the west to try to see the possibility that Russia is anything more than an evil enemy.  This is because Russia is not in lock-step with the Western version of capitalism which ensures wealth always flowing into the same hands.

Quote
In the Trump-Clinton debates of 2016, Trump expressed his intentions not to contain Russia, but  to work with Russia in an attempt to support world stability.   This seems more cavalier than Obama's approach. 

This is a courageous and responsible approach, hardly cavalier.  The high level of skepticism, to a point approaching sheep herd mentality, suggests to me more clearly than ever that rapprochment with Russia is the correct path.  I have my doubts that Trump is up to the task of overcoming the insidiuous military industrial complex that has turned the US economy into a war economy.
 
Quote
Meanwhile Trump is considering a meeting soon with Putin to negotiate a reduction in nuclear arms.  Trump, as did Obama, is departing from the historic policy of containment, not just with the proposed meeting, but with talk about reducing sanctions, comments that NATO is "obsolete" and not paying its share of costs, etc. 

NATO is obsolete insomuch as it is a Cold War relic that has always had Russia in the frame as the Great Bogeyman, even after the end of the Cold War.  With phenomenons like ISIS now running amuck, backed by the US’ blood-brother Saudi Arabia, Russia is still somehow the greatest enemy out there.  This is a disgrace.

Reduction of nuclear weapons is a win-win for everyone other than the US War Economy and maniacs who relish the thought of the mass destruction of the human race.

Quote
Obama's outgoing CIA Director, Brennan, has suggested Trump’s openness to friendship with Russia could originate from a lack of knowledge.  He is quoted as saying, "I don’t think he has a full appreciation of Russian capabilities, Russians’ intentions, and actions that they are undertaking in many parts of the world."   

I’m looking forward to seeing a complete retooling of the intelligence services.  This is a perfect place to begin draining the swamp.  Brennan has no credibility and is the tool of the US war economy.

Quote
I voted for Trump in the election and voted against him in the primary.  I support Trump but do not trust Putin.  I trust Trump and Tillerson  to not give us a treaty as unbalanced as the one with Iran, so is there anything to lose is letting them try?    Talking heads suggest China is our largest threat, and Trump needs Putin as an ally to make better deals with China.

You don’t need to start from a point of trust to be willing to sit down at a table and talk to someone and be willing to do it regularly.  I doubt many Westerners trust Putin, given all the biased garbage that regularly floats in the MSM swamp.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 05:21:08 PM by Bounder »

Offline Gator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16987
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: 1947 US Policy Regarding USSR - Still Relevant?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 08:11:40 PM »
Hi Gator, let me take a stab at this to get the ball rolling.  As you can see, I basically object to how you have framed the situation.
 

Objection recognized and accepted.  This was done just to get us talking about a subject that is in the news every day.  When was the last time Russia was in the US news daily? 

Quote
In my view it is naive and a bit silly to casually give the US credit for the collapse of the USSR like this.  It was the USSR’s own internal flaws that led to its dissolution.


Hitler in 1941 thought the flawed system would collapse.  The system survived for 75 years encompassing a horrific war.   

Reasons for the collapse are many.  For sure a centralized, commodity-based economy could not make adjustments to keep pace with Western economies.  Perestroika and glasnost came too late.   The West's containment policy prevented Soviet expansion, and  it accomplished Kennan's 1947 fundamental policy - "....to increase enormously the strains under which Soviet policy must operate, to force upon the Kremlin a far greater degree of moderation and circumspection than it has had to observe in recent years, and in this way to promote tendencies which must eventually find their outlet in either the break-up or the gradual mellowing of Soviet power. . . .

BTW, who says the USSR did not survive?  Putin is ex-KGB and behaves as such.   

 

Quote
I doubt any real and sincere effort was ever made to include Russia in an expanded NATO.


You misunderstood me.
 

Quote
The US attitude to Russia was hardly relaxed.
 

Most Americans  in Russia in the 90s were chasing the money, including huge oil deals (our veteran member BC).  No one was thinking about  containing Russia.  They expected Russia to grow. 
 

Quote
No, Obama was right the first time.
 

If Obama thought in 2012 Russia was not a threat, why is he now a hawk? 


Quote
In my lfietime I have never seen a sincere true attempt by the west to try to see the possibility that Russia is anything more than an evil enemy.  This is because Russia is not in lock-step with the Western version of capitalism which ensures wealth always flowing into the same hands.

???

Quote
This is a courageous and responsible approach, hardly cavalier.  The high level of skepticism, to a point approaching sheep herd mentality, suggests to me more clearly than ever that rapprochment with Russia is the correct path.


Harmony with Russia would be splendid.  Most are questioning whether such is possible.   
 
Quote
NATO is obsolete insomuch as it is a Cold War relic that has always had Russia in the frame as the Great Bogeyman, even after the end of the Cold War.

NATO participated in Afghanistan.

Quote
With phenomenons like ISIS now running amuck, backed by the US’ blood-brother Saudi Arabia, Russia is still somehow the greatest enemy out there.  This is a disgrace.

ISIS is horrific yet not a significant threat to our stability.  Russia working in the Middle East with Iran could destabilize the region, benefitting both nations with dramatically higher oil revenue. 



Quote
You don’t need to start from a point of trust to be willing to sit down at a table and talk to someone and be willing to do it regularly. 

Correct.    So give it a try.  And expect to take heat from Democrats. 

Online krimster2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7421
  • Country: us
  • He/Him
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: Resident
Re: 1947 US Policy Regarding USSR - Still Relevant?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 10:11:22 PM »
Gator,
   the answer to your question is; no...

In 1947, about half of the factories in the world were located in the USA, with Europe and Japan in ruins, and China just a rural farming society, not so any more, globalism run mad ...

In 1947 direct foreign investment in Russia was zero, now banks and the financial markets have many, many billions of exposure to Russia, Exxon is talking about a 500 billion $$$ investment, seriously google it and see...  no way we’re going to “contain Russia”, how does a bank contain its biggest borrower

The only people in the USA that Ukraine matters to is “Templeton” who bought about 7 billion of Ukrainian Euro-bonds, otherwise no one will really care when another piece of Ukraine gets annexed, and another, and another....

We could let Russia just have Ukraine in exchange for them “stepping back” from Venezuela when we decide to topple its government and let Exxon develop the trillion barrel Orinoco tar sands, our 50% share of IMF funding could be better used then it has been, being ripped off in Ukraine by oligarchs

sorry to offend the “patriots”


Offline Gator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16987
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: 1947 US Policy Regarding USSR - Still Relevant?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 03:13:20 PM »
Gator,
   the answer to your question is; no...

Yet, you criticize Trump's intentions to reset the relationship with Russia.  As Bounder said, "rapprochement is the correct path."    If you believe Russia can not be contained, why would you not support Trump, Tillerson, et al sitting down with Putin and negotiating a deal that supports global stability?   Maybe they will succeed.     


Quote
...  no way we’re going to “contain Russia”, how does a bank contain its biggest borrower

You describe economic containment.  Containment can be directed in other ways such as forms political, military, territorial .....

The existing sanctions against Russia for illegally annexing Crimea and invading SE Ukraine are mostly economic.  If you contend that Russia cannot be contained economically, I assume  you believe it matters not if the sanctions are removed as part of some new deal. 

Offline JayH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5685
  • Country: au
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Looking > 5 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: 1947 US Policy Regarding USSR - Still Relevant?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 03:38:08 PM »
Yet, you criticize Trump's intentions to reset the relationship with Russia.  As Bounder said, "rapprochement is the correct path."    If you believe Russia can not be contained, why would you not support Trump, Tillerson, et al sitting down with Putin and negotiating a deal that supports global stability?   Maybe they will succeed.     


You describe economic containment.  Containment can be directed in other ways such as forms political, military, territorial .....

The existing sanctions against Russia for illegally annexing Crimea and invading SE Ukraine are mostly economic.  If you contend that Russia cannot be contained economically, I assume  you believe it matters not if the sanctions are removed as part of some new deal.

A deal being floated to reduce the number of nuclear weapons -- has what to do with "global stability"?
A few token weapons ( that are far in excess of anything needed) to legitimize a Russian invasion -- ridiculous.

Actually --the acceptance of some of Trump's ridiculous assertions by confusing the issues is a typical  cynical hipocritical way that only serves to avoid real solutions -- all of which are possible if handled correctly.

Putin is desperate to end sanctions -- hence the support for Trump and the idea that a deal can be done with Trump.

I repeat  --it is quite easy for Russia to get the sanctions removed--get out of Ukraine --that should be a non -negotiable starting point to any discussion.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline BillyB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16105
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: 1947 US Policy Regarding USSR - Still Relevant?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2017, 08:58:40 PM »
sitting down with Putin and negotiating a deal that supports global stability?   Maybe they will succeed.     


Although Russia didn't play a part in Bush's Afghanistan war, Obama gave Russia a lot of sweet deals using American taxpayer money to buy Russian military hardware for the Afghanistan military. Putin was enriched by some of Obama's kind gestures. Obama made many efforts to include Russia as a major partner for global stability. What did Russia do? Go against Obama's policies around the world, one being shutting down Obama's "Assad must go" policy in Syria.

Trump thinks he's a better negotiator than Obama. That attitude will get him in trouble if he thinks Obama failed simply because he didn't know how to talk. Russia wants the better deal every time someone approaches them for one. If Trump asks Russia to reduce their nuclear arsenal, Putin will ask America to get rid of the missile shield and pull it's troops back out of Eastern Europe. Russia isn't going to do things out of the kindness of their hearts for the benefit of the world or just because Trump asks them to.

Trump should have a talk with Putin but he should understand Putin is selfish. Putin will deceive Trump. Just a matter of time. I just hope Trump doesn't allow himself to be duped as long as Obama was.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

 

+-RWD Stats

Members
Total Members: 8890
Latest: madmaxx
New This Month: 1
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 546446
Total Topics: 20988
Most Online Today: 1544
Most Online Ever: 194418
(June 04, 2025, 03:26:40 PM)
Users Online
Members: 7
Guests: 1495
Total: 1502

+-Recent Posts

Re: The Struggle For Ukraine by krimster2
Today at 01:37:46 PM

The Struggle For Ukraine by 2tallbill
Today at 01:06:46 PM

Re: The Struggle For Ukraine by krimster2
Today at 09:14:17 AM

Re: Outlook for Children of joint Western/FSU relationships by Trenchcoat
Today at 12:28:00 AM

Re: The Struggle For Ukraine by Trenchcoat
Yesterday at 03:47:24 PM

Off Topic by Trenchcoat
Yesterday at 03:33:40 PM

Re: Magic Translation Earbuds by krimster2
August 03, 2025, 05:46:48 PM

Re: Kamchatka Volcano by krimster2
August 03, 2025, 05:39:23 PM

Off Topic by krimster2
August 03, 2025, 02:45:36 PM

Kamchatka Volcano by 2tallbill
August 03, 2025, 01:59:33 PM

Powered by EzPortal