Rationalisations that fly in the face of reason

[Maxx]

What do you call a person who speaks one language? American. 

Mono-lingual, uni-lingual or cy-lingual



http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/09/adorable_cyclops_kit.html

 

[Jooky]

We all write in the same language here, so why is it that whenever Andrew says something nobody seems to get what he is saying?

So much for communicating in a common language. ;-)

[Rvrwind]

Language is only one side of the relationship dice... don't forget the other face of the dice... if you need a b!tch who speak english, don't need to go in Russia, you can find plenty of them in USA

Now that is the most intelligent statement in this whole friggin' thread.!!!!:clapping:

You want a woman that speaks your own language, don't go lookin' in a foreign country. Too friggin' simple!!! Duh!!!

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[swindoom]

Funny how so many newbies come to RW related fora to find comfort in a pigeon hole, but then refuse to enter claiming their relationship is so exceptional that long standing principles and simple common sense do not apply.

I am not a newbie, I only normally read these boards not usually interested in posting but as many people on here understand the generalisation that non-English speaking FSU women are lower quality is very insulting.

My counter arguement, which he will not accept, is that at the beginning of a relationship, with an FSU woman, English ability is not that important especially as it is normally via email but as things progress it becomes more important and by the time marriage talk starts it is vital.

Quack, Quack.

[Turboguy]

It just seems to me that if a Russian Woman who has suddenly developed an interest in a foreign man but does not speak Engish is stupid and lazy then an American man who has in interest in a Russian woman but does not speak fluent Russian is also Lazy and Dumb.    To me being lazy and dumb is one thing and being able to speak a foreign language is another. 

Frankly I can find better things to think about than who is lazy and dumb.  I would rather look for the good in people.

BC I agree, Quack Quack

[jb]

and by the time marriage talk starts it is vital.

Swindoom,

I think you and Andrew may be closer to agreement than you think.

The reality of the situation for most of the men (Americans, at least) who finally save up enough money to make a trip to visit a girl who speaks no English is; by the time he is ready to fly he is already in love with a photograph and a fantasy, he is talking and making plans about marriage through translated letters.  Thus, like we've seen on Photoguy's thread, many of these guys are effectively getting married to a woman they do not know.  Although he, Photoguy, is not married yet, all bets are on that he will marry before the 90 day K-1 visa expires.

We have so many "One Week Wonders" around here it would blow your mind.  Everybody thinks "My situation is unique" or, "My g/f is special, so all these stupid common sense rules don't apply to me".

Some of us see this as not rational thinking.  I could be wrong, but I think this is what  Andrew is railing against.  I know this is what troubles me about the "One Week Wonders", even 90 days with a woman you cannot talk to is not enough time to build all the bridges needed for a good solid marriage

[Turboguy]

Personally JB, I don't have as much objection to the logic of finding a gal who can speak your language as I do to calling Russain women who are looking for a guy but don't know English "Lazy and Stupid"    I don't think their knowing the language necessarily reflects on their IQ or energy level. 

I have met some gals who did not speak a word of English and been in some kind of relationship with some who were at least far enough along to communicate to a degree, lets say 65% of the way to fluent.  I am not going to say I would never get into a relationship with a gal who did not know any english but as tough as it can be with any woman, being in one with no English is more of a challenge then I would want to take unless she has the face I ever saw and a figure to die for, then I might be in such a stupor that I would forget English myself.

[swindoom]

jb,

I agree with you, many men make quick life changes decisions with little real knowledge of their future partner that they would not make if the woman was local to them. I personally feel that any relationship should progress at a pace allowing both parties to know and understand each other in order to make an informed decision about marriage. Many men make excuses or ignore problems that they would not if the woman was local.

It is perfectly acceptable to tell a newbie to avoid non-English speaking FSU women if they do not want the extra hassle/effort that is required and of course the extra time needed  before making any big decisions.

[andrewfi]

Swindoom ~ If you are going to criticise, or (mis)paraphrase my words then fine - your choice or, if not understanding, problem. But as yet, nobody has answered my simple and direct question about choices. That so many pages can be written based upon faulty premsises without answering that one simple question really does indicate that here, many are proceeding from faulty assumptins, are rationalising unreasonable precepts and basically settling for what they can get, not for what they could have.

So, which twin would you choose?

 

[Shadow]

Bruno is right in his assumption. It is a very different thing to learn a language and to be able to communicate in a language.

When people are interested in me in Russia, they do try to communicate with the little knowledge they recall from school. Some make amazing progress, others just can not remember the words.

Having been brought up with many people in my environment who are not speaking their native language has given me an understanding on using more simple language. As a result my fiancee could understand me perfectly, while in general not understanding Americans. It does help if you are understanding some basic grammar of another language and are not to blind on sentence building according to English Grammar.

[andrewfi]

Shadow ~ So?

That changes not one whit anything I have posted. If a woman claims not to know any English, unless she was taught another foreign language, then she is either lying, lazy or dim.

If she has done nothing to improve her school taught skills in preparation for her planned future then she is stupid.

If a guy chooses such a woman over one who is industrious, or bright then that is his problem, but as a rational man, I certainly recognise that the needs and aspirations of men vary and their choices probably reflect their own situation. But that does not alter the reality that choosing somebody with whom one can not communicate means that one can not know that person and that any chocies made as a result of the faulty or missing information is based upon faulty premises.

Of course some people will end up happy, having followed such a route. I can probably cross the road outside my house, once, blindfolded. Does that mean that one can infer that crossing the road outside my house, without sight is sensible or likely to be successful?

But, the communication issue is but one of the faulty memes to which I referred upthread, albeit the one that has been picked upon by many posters here. Perhaps a reflection of the fact that many have not actually had any experience of anything other than communication issues at this stage?

So, which twin would you choose?

[Shadow]

Shadow ~ So?

That changes not one whit anything I have posted. If a woman claims not to know any English, unless she was taught another foreign language, then she is either lying, lazy or dim.

If she has done nothing to improve her school taught skills in preparation for her planned future then she is stupid.

If a guy chooses such a woman over one who is industrious, or bright then that is his problem, but as a rational man, I certainly recognise that the needs and aspirations of men vary and their choices probably reflect their own situation. But that does not alter the reality that choosing somebody with whom one can not communicate means that one can not know that person and that any chocies made as a result of the faulty or missing information is based upon faulty premises.

Of course some people will end up happy, having followed such a route. I can probably cross the road outside my house, once, blindfolded. Does that mean that one can infer that crossing the road outside my house, without sight is sensible or likely to be successful?

But, the communication issue is but one of the faulty memes to which I referred upthread, albeit the one that has been picked upon by many posters here. Perhaps a reflection of the fact that many have not actually had any experience of anything other than communication issues at this stage?

So, which twin would you choose?

If she is lazy, and stupid she is a perfect match. I sure hope she does not lie though.

Now why would a woman preparing for a future in an other country need only to learn English. With the current laws, if anyone would want to relocate to Holland they have to speak Dutch. What you are asking is that women prepare themselves for a language they might never use.

Now do not come with the story that if a woman agrees to meet a man she already needs to prepare. You are one of the persons who knows very well that before the first meeting women are not in love and are undecided about their future being with this man or in this country.

A woman who has learned English in preparation of finding a hsband is a woman determined for a destination inside and English-speaking country. As such she is dangerous material as she prefers a certain destination, probably over the way of reaching the destination.

 

[andrewfi]

Shadow ~ Ws have been here before. This is an English speaking board, populated entirely with English speakers, albeit with varying fluency. Thus for shorthand it makes sense to deal in terms of the language in which we communicate. That said, I have previously suggested that a woman actively seeking, for example, an Italian would be well served to learn that langauge. But given that most MOB sites are in English, it is pretty much a given that the male user will have reasonable command of English and that, therefore, for the woman to have facility in English allows a useful common language. If a woman were to learn but one additional language, without making a choice as to destination, then English would be the rational choice

I have friends who find themselves in that situation. She is Russian, he Finnish, they both speak good practical English, that is the language upon which their relationship is based. If she had not spoken English they would likely not have met. If they did meet but did not share a common language they would either not be together now, or if together, not have explored the issues that enable them to be building a relationship.

[Shadow]

Andrew, you are still trying to keep up your point of view of a woman preparing herself for a future in a different country. I know that this is your longtime point of view, that most of the women are seeking a foreign husband in a specific location, where the location is more important than the person.

However I would like to make clear that there are just as many, maybe more,  women who put up a profile and then are actually surprised it works. They were not in desperation to leave the country or find a foreign husband. As such they had no reasons to prepare anything until they realised they would leave the country for marriage.

Now I do agree that once the decision is taken, some preparation and the learning of a new language is needed. Also I agree that speaking a foreign language is an advantage for communication. And among the intelligent young women the desire to learn English is high.

However I disagree that a woman who put her profile on a site should already have learned English because she has prepared to relocate.

[swindoom]

many are proceeding from faulty assumptins, are rationalising unreasonable precepts and basically settling for what they can get, not for what they could have.

This is describing your stand point on this issue, you generalise about a whole section of FSU women based on limited personal experience.

If you reject sending that first email to a woman who does not speak English to a good standard then you severely limit the choices you will have and in the end may miss out on the person that is actually the best for you. There are just as many dumb/lazy English speaking FSU ladies as there are dumb/lazy non-English speaking FSU ladies.

It is your choice to totally ignore very good replies to your premise that if an FSU woman does not speak good English from day 1 of your correspondance then she is obviously dumb/lazy or both.

[Jet]

So, riddle me this. How does a woman who has been taught English for several years and, if a university graduate, supposedly reasonably fluent, manage to claim that she has no English at all?

It seems more charitable to assume that she is stupid or lazy than to suggest she is being dishonest. If you wanna go with dishonest, that's fine with me. Many people are lazy and many are a little dim. Many of those people are entirely delightful people, but they are still lazy, or dim...

The difficulty I have with this is that it relies entirely on the other person's perception of their own ability. Frankly, I find it far less offensive to hear a woman say she doesn't speak any english, than the American guy that knows Da, Nyet, pronounces Khara-sho as Ka-ro-chee, and couldn't spit out Zdrast-vuite to save his life, yet boasts to his friends "Oh yeah, I speak a little Russian!"

[Bruno]

So, riddle me this. How does a woman who has been taught English for several years and, if a university graduate, supposedly reasonably fluent, manage to claim that she has no English at all?

...
[/quote]

Thank Jet, your cote of andrew words allow me to make a reply

At college, i have learn modern Greek, 2 hours week during 3 year... now, i have never use these language... i only remember the alphabet ( who help me for Russian ) but i cannot speak or understand Greek... no practice during almost 15 year...

O the other side, i have never learn dutch at school... I have learn it during my night work in a cafe with contact to Dutch people... After one month, i was able to have a basic conversation... now, i am able to have a normal coversation...

What you learn to school is something that you forget fast, practice is something that you keep... How much guy here remember all they have learn to school, specially thing that they have never use in the real life ?