Hello everyone.

[MBH248]

Finally someone that made me laugh.
Thanks ML.

[Ooooops]

No I didn't, I was very respectful and courteous at all times. I answered any questions they had honestly. That was just my personal opinion.

Ok, then may be I missed that and you already said it but how well did you get to know those girls before you've met them?   

[Anotherkiwi]

Anotherkiwi,
I answered why in my second post on women in the US. I can get them just over 40 with kids, that's great but not what I'm looking for.

There are websites full of single, childless American women in the age group you're looking at who are willing to form a relationship with someone your age.  There are many, MANY successful marriages in every country where the partners have an age difference which is the same or greater than the one you envisage.  Only the tiniest proportion of these relationships are between people from different countries or cultures.  If you WANT to look in the FSU (or South-east Asia, or India, or anywhere else) for a bride, that's fine - just don't ignore the possibilities at home simply because you don't see glitzy ads for them all over the internet.
 

And no I do not think I'm anything special, just another guy looking for love and wanting to start a family. I don't go into finances with these girls, I have a very comfortable living and do not consider myself rich.

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but in your second post you stated that "I will retire before I'm 50 and be a stay at home dad. I cook, clean and fix anything. I will take them traveling around the world. I would make sure they keep in constant contact with their friends and family and visit at least once a year."  To the rest of the world (and probably to most in the USA) that makes you extremely wealthy.  Hardly anybody can afford to do even part of what you've posted, so whoever you end up with is going to be one very fortunate woman.  I sincerely hope that she is worthy of you.
 

I want them to want me for me, not for what I have.

Exactly my point.  I'm glad you realise it, simply because we've seen many come and go on this Forum who obviously didn't.
 

And if you read very carefully I went on a couple dates on my return trip. My "wonder woman" emailed me everyday after I left the first time and was to spend everyday with me on my return. When she didn't, I went on dates with a few girls from Mamba that I talked with while waiting on her to show. Did I tell her? Of course! and she was shocked but it did not get her to wake up or show up on consecutive days. She did have work issues but specifically told me she would spend the time with me. I saw her 5 days for about 2 to 5 hours each time, she blew me off on my last day where we were to spend the entire day together and I told her I may never come back. She writes me telling me how she still misses me and wants me to return. I don't get it, she could have seen plenty of me on the trip.

My problem here, and please don't take this the wrong way, is that you've given us only part of the story to start with, and I've responded to that.  Then you've added a bit more, so I've amended my thinking and responded accordingly.  Now you've expanded even more, and hopefully this time we have the full story.  If you had included all of that (especially the AFA tour), in your first post, pretty well all the responses would have been rather different.
 
To a Westerner, the arrangements that you made with her were pretty much set in stone and would have required maybe a couple of quick phone calls before you left home and when you arrived just to confirm that everything was ready for your meeting.  As Lily posted above, many (not all, thankfully) FSUW have a different concept of time and appointments.  As for the way she reacted when you told her that you had dated other women - what did you expect? 
 
Every man on this site has been blown off on dates in Russia or Ukraine - it happens, so get used to it.  There are also many, many stories about women who are actually interested in a man using these tactics to play "hard to get," not realising that their actions are having totally the opposite effect to that intended.  While it may be usual for these women in local dating, most fail to realise that it can't possibly work with someone who has flown half-way around the world and simply doesn't have the time for these sorts of games.
 
 

I don't say the Ukraine to them I say your country and have only compliments, that's just my grammar here.

Good.  I've only been to Ukraine once, but I also liked what I saw.
 

And yes Davemans advise is useless. "don't be an idiot" gee why didn't I think of that. People come on here for help or advise not to get picked apart.

You're still missing his point.  He's not picking you apart - he's giving you solid advice from the point of view of someone who has been involved in this pursuit for a lot longer than you, and who is now happily married to a beautiful Ukrainian woman.  Again, I'm sure that his initial response would also, like mine, have been different if you had included the missing bits in your first post.  He has also given you the link to the sites which ML has compiled of those which he and other members here recommend if you're looking for women from the FSU.
 

Most of the guys I met on my first trip seamed like very decent, good guys looking to find love and happiness and were truly there for the right reasons. One guy was a sex tourist. I would think the girls would be able to see the frauds.

Unfortunately 99% of the men on any tour will be tarred with the same brush, simply by being there.  One of the things which has been drummed into me by others here is that women from the FSU expect their men to be men - to be capable enough of making their own arrangements to visit, for example, rather than having the appearance of needing their hands held every step of the way on a tour.
 
And it doesn't matter how decent the guys are that you met on the tour - very few, if any, of the women you meet at those socials will speak anywhere near enough English to be able to discern the difference between the genuine wife seekers and the sex tourist.  Most will also automatically assume that these men are there only for a good time, because that's what other people tell them to expect.  Just out of interest, were you or any of the guys with you able to meet women that they had been emailing or talking to?
 
I'll admit that I haven't been on one of these tours myself, but a couple of documentaries I've seen about them have made me cringe at just how badly the men had prepared for their trip, and how naïve their expectations were.  From what you've written that doesn't seem to apply to you, so you're ahead of the competition in that respect.
 
This reply is much longer than I envisaged originally, but I wanted to cover all your points.  I'm also trying to be constructive, not negative, so hang in there! 
 
JohnDearGreen also had some very sage advice:
 

Sounds pretty normal.  A lot like my 2 trips to Moscow.  I called ladies and couldn't drag them out of their apartment to meet me.   "My dog is sick.  Gotta stay at home this weekend." etc etc.  Go somewhere like Kyiv. Contact about 10 to 20 ladies from a diverse mix of web sites, from cities outside of Kyiv.   Invite the 4 to 6 that you like best to come meet you in Kyiv.  That helps to eliminate some that have little real interest.  If they are willing to jump on a train for 4 to 12 hours, and give up a couple days of their vacation time, then there's a good chance they are seriously looking for someone, possibly you.  As example, I talked to about 8 ladies from Odessa.  None were willing to come to Kyiv to meet me.  Avoid Odessa.  With other cities like Vinnitsa, Krivog Rog, Kharkiv, Kherson, Simferopol, there was a high probability they would want to meet if they returned a couple weeks of my emails.  I would offer to pay their expenses, but that is up to you.  It may sound expensive, but wasting a couple days with a local girl who shows little interest is an expense also.

Whatever you do is ultimately your choice - nobody else's.  Good luck. 
 
 

[LiveFromUkraine]

A better life in the US (or I will move there and live like a king).

That is completely subjective and shouldn't even be listed as a reason.   The last thing you want is a woman who is looking for a better life in the US.

[Turboguy]

Wow, I can't believe I missed my guess.   It is so obvious when I know the answer.


I was the first to welcome you to the forum.   I asked you how you had met the ladies you traveled to meet.  I really thought I knew the answer to the question before I had your answer but I guessed wrong.   I think the only reason I guessed wrong is that we haven't had very many tour veterans here.  I should have known it was a tour even before you answered because your results were so typical.


Unlike Kiwi I tried the tour route before finding RWD.  I thought they were great.  I came back from each thinking I had found my woman.  I stayed in touch with a number of my friends I met on the tours after we came back and most all thought they found their woman.  All of us bombed on our follow up visit.  I can recall Mike from Michigan coming back excited that he had found his woman.  He made a trip to see her a few months later and she basically got him some groceries, locked him in his apartment, taking the key so he couldn't leave and nearly forgot he was there.  She paid almost no attention to him.  The women I met turned out more to be scammers that were living high on the money men sent for English lessons and the like or needed money so their sick Mom could get an operation and not die. 


I thought the tours were a blast.  Most all the men were decent men, a few had problems of some kind and one or two were sex tourists and jerks but most were just a cross section of men with a dream.   I really enjoyed the morning get togethers where we all shared our experiences.   Everyone was happy, upbeat and tried to help each other.  Mostly we all fell for the crap the agency told us.  One of my friends was likely on your tour.  He is a tour addict and has done about 20.  He has had more fiancees than most any and did manage to help them all learn English and keep their Moms hospital bills paid. 


You are a nice looking successful guy that many FSU women would be thrilled to have as a husband.   Please don't do any more tours.  The results will be the same.  There are better ways to do this.  Had I not found RWD I might still be searching instead of nearing my 6th wedding anniversary.


I think in my early search I went to the FSU for much the same reason you did.  At that point in my life I was seeking a wife and wanted to have a family with her.  I too found that hard to find in the USA.   There were lots of good women, but they already had a family and the ones that didn't usually had some kind of serious problem.  My search went on long enough that my goals changed but thanks to RWD I did find the most wonderful woman in the world. 


1.  Forget tours.
2.  Read as much as you can here to learn what works and what doesn't.
3.  Don't give up.
4.  Until you find the right one, look in the USA as well but I agree with you.   What you want to find is easier to find in the FSU. 

[Daveman]

Finally someone that made me laugh.
Thanks ML.

Okay let's start over...








You know what??
















CHICKEN BUTT!!!






bwahahahaha!!!   Better?       As hilarious as that was, I can't take credit for that one..  That's 2TallBill's.




The guys are telling you "like it is". So, if I somehow irk you by pointing out the obvious, then read their posts an extra couple of times.


You're the only one who knows all the full (your half of) the story, Mike.  Here's what generally happens.  Guy shows up on the forum and makes some comments such as yours.  When he hears something he doesn't like he begins expanding the story -- and the story seems to "change" a little upon each new elaboration because he's rationalizing and making excuses (not REALLY as bad as I first appeared to indicate...).  The most likely reason you don't know what to think about that particular woman is that your gut instinct is trying to tell you that something is seriously wrong there while your mind is looking for reasons to support the possibility that all will be well. So you're torn. 


If you have the time (time you're willing to risk wasting) to go visit her again - a trip just for her - that would probably answer your lingering questions/doubts, unless you are the gullible type who is easily strung along.  Perhaps she was very put off by your meeting(s) with other women and a trip for just her would make the right difference.  You did tell her "I may not come back" or whatever that was... which sounds like a guilt trip and that would be a put-off for any woman.


I can't recall an example of where that kind of second trip actually worked out, but perhaps I just can't remember, or you'll be the first.  But, if you think she's worth a chance, then go for it.

[Faux Pas]

Hi Mike
Welcome to RWD! There are other forums you can join if you need the back slapping encouragement and praise. This one isn't one of those. However, if you are seeking avenues of information that can lead to success in this adventure, then you've found it. It's mighty cheap but it isn't free. You have to separate the wheat from the chafe. There are many diverse, successful men and women here that can and will teach you much. Trust me, you couple of trips and tours haven't taught you what you really need to know. If you do in fact want to learn, your best course of action at RWD is to grow some thicker skin and learn accept helpful advice in whatever manner it's given. You soon discover that there are treasure troves of it. Recognizing it sometimes is a problem.

That said, it's pretty obvious you bought into the tour hype. Most here can already discern where your mindset is as a result. Mendy gave you the best advice among all this good advice so far. Deprogram yourself from all you think you learned on those tours. That tour, lock stock and barrel is not designed for you to find a quality woman. It's designed to relieve you of your money. The fish you catch is directly related to the bait you use. The tours are some very stinky bait.

Do you date 29 year old women at home? If you are 48, that is near a 20 year difference. If you don't do it at home why do you think the results will be much different in the FSU? You can improve your position in the FSU but, like anywhere else, get greedy and you'll get burned. You can convince yourself of most anything with the help of some pretty pictures on some well place web sites. If you're feeling lucky, forget the FSU and go to Vegas. If you date 29 year olds at home, you can date them in the FSU. If you can't at home remember there is a reason for it.

Good Luck guy

[lordtiberius]

Hi all,
My name is Mike.
A friend told me about this site, not sure why I didn't come across it in my searches since I'm pretty good with computers.
I have made the trip to the Ukraine twice already in 2013 and getting ready for a third in April-May of 2014. I think there are many scams by both the agencies and girls. Is there a list of scam sites on here? i just signed up and haven't searched yet. I think this site will be very helpful so thanks in advance.
My main reason for going to the Ukraine is that I'm looking for a younger women to start a family. I'm 48 and have been looking for 32-37, but have dated 27-30 when I was there since it's harder to find women in the older range with no children.
My first trip was a last minute thing and I connected with one girl in particular. On my return trip I met a few others that didn't pan out and when I went to see the first girl for 11 days she had little to no time for me. I'm still in contact with her and she says she will not mess up a second chance but I don't know what to think.
My one concern is that the girls in the Ukraine do not show any signs of interest like I would expect. I'm a decent looking guy with a very good job and have the potential to give them a great life but it seams they don't really care about that. Blown off dates and a lackadaisical approach to calling and emailing is all I was getting. What am I missing? Any advise will be helpful.
Thanks again.
Mike

buena suarte

[GQBlues]

Just a couple of quick facts...

1. As some of the guys had already told you, leave the 'I can provide her a better life' talk home. It is imminently dangerous to a relationship you seek to carry that type of attitude whether you are aware of it or not. You've already put 'her' at a very disadvantaged position without even realizing it. No one should ever be put in that type of position, especially not when marriage is in your minds. Understand that if, and when, you 'reach' that point your inamorata arrives through POE, it will be an exciting time for you both but it will also render her to be in her most vulnerable position because whether she likes it or not, she would be wholly dependent on you. This, all the while, your mentality is getting reinforced that what you do for her - she needs to feel gratification for. IMO, wrong attitude to take and harbor in a marriage.

Many guys carried this mentality for whatever reasons and they are the ones living with it - alone. Don't advance and try to fill YOUR present void by leading and throwing money forward. You will reap what you sowed. *You plant bananas - you eat bananas*

There are troves of wrecked train in the annals of RWD's junkyard for your reading pleasure if you so care to do some reading.

2. Unlike it was in the past, things aren't quite as 'easy' these days. The FSU's best shotgun days are just about over. This is in large measure because the notoriety of the traveling 'foreign rock stars' days - regardless of reality, are gone.  Because of the increased level of non-immigrant visas issuance many folks from the FSU are able to acquire entry to many western nations, like the USA, with relative ease lately.

Here's an example: 1990s-early 2000, the K-visa entries were approximately in the average range of 3-4,000/yr. IINM, one year it spiked to 6K. In later years, these numbers had fallen to almost 10% with 2012 witnessing an increased level from Ukraine at 600 /-. Non-immigrant visas ranges from tourist, student, K-visa, business visas. There's been a very strong influx of ex-pats studying, working, living, visiting the US - and some, with greater frequency. Of the 600 reported for 2012, don't be surprised that a huge number of that are petitioned by ex-pats and not necessarily your average American Joe. Where you are in these numbers rest solely with you.

So, what does this mean to you? In short, the feeding frenzy is all but over. There are far more games played and far more avenues to get lost in. Andrewfi's infamous dirty barrel is just about fished out. Of course it doesn't mean you will no longer get a nibble or even a bite - just don't ever get in a rut believing you're an exception to the rule, and IMO, the minute you believe these women are any different than any of their worldly sisters - kiss your booty goodbye. The line you're straddling on just got thinner.

[Belvis]

I'm 48 and have been looking for 32-37, but have dated 27-30 when I was there since it's harder to find women in the older range with no children.
...
My one concern is that the girls in the Ukraine do not show any signs of interest like I would expect. I'm a decent looking guy with a very good job and have the potential to give them a great life but it seams they don't really care about that.

I dare to say my point of view though pretty much was told already.
1. About age gap. Typical age gap in Russia or Ukraine is about 3 years, 10-12 years is acceptable though rare and above that is reserved for actor stars, composers, writers and other exceptional persons. I'm talking about love-match, marriage of convenience has no limitations.  Of course, there are young women who like old men because those are not inclined to adultery 

2. Love relationship requires time to develop, so first date could be seen as a business meeting where partners try to evaluate the future potential. It is unspoken but partners keep it in mind: you provide "great life", she's agree for the age gap. Fair deal for both sides, no need to discuss further. She does not feel any obligations for "great life".

3. And now, after terms has been settled you both are just man and woman who seek love. By other words, your personality becomes the key factor to draw her attraction and response. If you show none, deal is off. Some aggressiveness is welcome, man leads woman in the couple dance in FSU. Don't expect she will begin first to win your heart, it's your job unless she falls in love at first sight.

4. I've got impression you possess the qualities to catch a decent FSUW. We all just need a little luck 

[YoungBuck]

I don't have much experience,  but I'm one of the never married guys here and I'm also looking for the same thing.
I did a write one  visit one  trip that was also pretty much a large disappointment.  afterwards I went to Moscow with friends and did it the old fashion way. I was able to get some contacts  but they were from the same type of woman I can attract in the U.S., hotter yes,  but women are the same everywhere and your charm as a foreigner could only take you so far.

 just by the mere fact you're traveling in Russia,  with friends,  reduces the sex tourist stigma.  being a traveler indicates wealth,  and most people would move to be with someone they love,  so I would suggest groundwork.  you're retiring in a year,  why not spend a few months living and experiencing the fsu?
the wait in between visits creates expectations,  and I'm sure that a good number of failed online relationships  would have been successful if they would have naturally developed instead.
 like they say happiness is the difference between reality and expectations.

[Daveman]

...
I did a write one  visit one  trip that was also pretty much a large disappointment. 
...

Hang in there YoungBuck, you'll eventually snag you one of these Chernobyl headed wimmin! 

[Ooooops]

I was just reading the sister forum (lots of familiar faces    ) and a young American who went to Odessa was really puzzled why women in second world country were not jumping on him left and right.   I guess that's what you call a "culture shock"!   

[Lily]

Typical age gap in Russia or Ukraine is about 3 years, 10-12 years is acceptable though rare and above that is reserved for actor stars, composers, writers and other exceptional persons. I'm talking about love-match, marriage of convenience has no limitations.   

I'd say that 'exceptional' would be the key word here. Occupation not really important, but personality is. If someone wants a large gap relationship where he / she is older than the partner, it is feasible, however, the partner of a more advanced age should be really outstanding in a few departments.

[ML]

however, the partner of a more advanced age should be really outstanding in a few departments.

I have all of my hair and teeth, and can throw a football a very long distance.

And, I have a few outstanding warrants in several police departments.

[Daveman]

I have all of my hair and teeth, and can throw a football a very long distance.

And, I have a few outstanding warrants in several police departments.

What is so outstanding about them? Must have been a hell of a night...

[Muzh]

A very easy going, honest, open and loyal man. You'd be hard pressed to find a more honest person. A better life in the US (or I will move there and live like a king). Someone that will treat them with respect as an equal and be a great father to their children. I will retire before I'm 50 and be a stay at home dad. I cook, clean and fix anything. I will take them traveling around the world. I would make sure they keep in constant contact with their friends and family and visit at least once a year. I will love them till the day I die and do anything for them. I could go on and on.

What more do they want?

FWIW
 
I suggest you do not really stick to this premise. I've heard many guys in the process of being divorced say the same.
 
Marriage is dynamic and you should be atuned to its changes. ESPECIALLY if you are planing to be a father for the first time at around 50. [You must be faring nuts, but that's another story. ]
 
So it would be best if you do not go advertising you have all 'this' to give and then ask her 'What more do you want?' Be a Nike, Just Do It.

[JayH]

Just a couple of quick facts...

1. As some of the guys had already told you, leave the 'I can provide her a better life' talk home. It is imminently dangerous to a relationship you seek to carry that type of attitude whether you are aware of it or not. You've already put 'her' at a very disadvantaged position without even realizing it. No one should ever be put in that type of position, especially not when marriage is in your minds. Understand that if, and when, you 'reach' that point your inamorata arrives through POE, it will be an exciting time for you both but it will also render her to be in her most vulnerable position because whether she likes it or not, she would be wholly dependent on you. This, all the while, your mentality is getting reinforced that what you do for her - she needs to feel gratification for. IMO, wrong attitude to take and harbor in a marriage.

Many guys carried this mentality for whatever reasons and they are the ones living with it - alone. Don't advance and try to fill YOUR present void by leading and throwing money forward. l

This is a really important point and well expanded on here by GQ.   Further back upthread   AnotherKiwi  is making the same point--albeit saying it slightly differently .
This is an American owned forum so this is with the greatest respect!!!-- Guys need to lose the superiority complex in general ie-- that they are "saving" the centre of their attention and whisking them away to a better life. Of course that applies to all guys searching -- but Americans seem to have it ingrained in their brains in a way that closes their minds .Look how often we see that sentiment expressed by newbies here on the forums as an example.