Personal Banking in the Ukraine

[mendeleyev]

Some ATM systems allow direct cash deposits via an ATM, for example. One can easily and legally set up a paypal type account where money is received from any number of legitimate sources and then automatically swept into the bank account of designation.

I think that the link provided in the banking info given earlier even gave some options.

[ML]

I appreciate your efforts Mendeleyev, but I think you are giving hope where there is none.

Yes, I can put some cash into ATM here in USA and get it into my USA bank account.

But it is not possible to do so and get it into an account in a Ukrainian bank.  Too many international banking laws related to money laundering, terrorist activities, etc., would block such.

[daveyj]

Manny, didn't know your name was "Dick" especially after giving a good answer to the original question.   Guess the rules are to offer advice but don't ask questions, no matter how politely phrased.

Mendeleyev, now come on, you're a smart guy...do you really think "a politely phrased question" is what happened there?  Really?

And as far as giving a good answer to the original question?  His answer was to open an account in Latvia, and then wire transfer money from my Canadian bank to my Latvian bank, and then do another wire transfer from the Latvian bank to her Ukrainian bank.  You think that is a good answer to the original question?

At the risk of also being renamed Dick, this shouldn't be rocket science although in knowing more than just a little something about how visas work, I'm also wondering as to whether it will accomplish the intended purpose.

I agree that it shouldn't be rocket science.  And yet it appears to be so, since nobody has been able to answer the question (including you, my dear fellow).

As far as not accomplishing the intended purpose in support of her visa application...I'm not sure how you can say that now?  Perhaps you didn't read my post immediately prior to yours where I shared that good news that in fact it had worked like a charm and she had gotten her UK tourist visa?
(...admittedly, I don't know what the rationale of the ECO was.  But the financial support and paper trail was something that we highlighted repeatedly in her application, so I think it it reasonable to draw a correlation.)

First, she needs to open a simple account at a bank affiliate of Electron cards (Visa). A good one would be Ukraine's Finance and Credit bank (also known as UniCredit bank). She will be issued a card before walking out the door. No minimum locally but for worldwide banking privileges the account should maintain a minimum daily balance of $200 USD.

She can obtain a second card (for your use but in her name) for just UAH 40. Annual maintenance on the card is 60 UAH. No fees for using UniCredit ATMs in Ukraine, 1.5% at other ATMs including worldwide.

As she would naturally know, she must have her internal password and ID number with her at account opening. Once home she can register on-line for Internet account management (giving you the password) and deposits can be made from anywhere in the world on line. Bluntly, the on-line provisions were fashioned after a series of meetings between the Finance Ministers of Ukraine and Canada and designed to make it easier for Canada's large Ukrainian diaspora to send money back home.

The Bank is recognized as the Agent Bank of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine for the servicing of the international Lines of Credit so it's about as safe as one can expect.
http://www.fcbank.com.ua/private/i_bank/

Now THIS is what I consider to be a good answer.  In fact the best answer thus far.  However, unfortunately, in looking through the link provided I was not able to see anything which actually states that one can do anything more than the standard wire transfer.  Still, it gave brief hope.  And maybe the answer is indeed buried somewhere on that site.

Finally, as it happens, we may have already found the solution.  Privat Bank (her bank) sent out a press release back in Feb saying that Western Union transfers can be deposited via internet into one's account. We weren't originally able to figure this out, and nobody from Privat Bank could help us, and thus we went with the Liqpay option.  But my GF tells me she has now found the section on her internet banking site where this can be done.  The process is a to do a standard Western Union transfer (which can be purchased via internet) and then she simply enters the MTC# on her online banking site and the deposit happens to her account.

At least, this is what it says.  We will try it for our Dec 31 deposit.

I must say, it is frightening to think that perhaps the closest thing this board has to an expert on these matters is perhaps myself?  Surely not?  Or maybe that's just how brilliant I am! (easy, easy, I'm joking)

[Daveman]

...

I must say, it is frightening to think that perhaps the closest thing this board has to an expert on these matters is perhaps myself?  Surely not?  Or maybe that's just how brilliant I am! (easy, easy, I'm joking)

Every tidbit of information began pretty much as your situation - the unknown.  You're the pioneer in uncharted territory.   

so, keep us posted...

[mendeleyev]

Manlooking, thanks as I appreciate your questions and of course have no desire to give bad, or illegal, information.

Unless I'm missing something there are a number of ways to transfer money to/from this bank legally. A list of those methods are here: http://www.fcbank.com.ua/private/order/

These methods may not accomplish what the OP intended for his paper trail but it does appear to accomplish the idea of allowing Canadian residents send money back home to relatives in Ukraine.

While not being an expert on international banking laws my employer uses legal correspondent bank arrangements to compensate foreign employees and Ukraine's Finance & Credit Bank is an international correspondent bank. For example, the bank website indicated that employers (international) may pay Ukrainian citizens using "paycards" in one of 3 currencies: Dollars, Euros, UAH.

[mendeleyev]

Thanks for the compliment on being a smart fellow, and of course it was a politely worded question as one of the mods indicated.

agree that it shouldn't be rocket science.  And yet it appears to be so, since nobody has been able to answer the question (including you, my dear fellow).

Go back and read. I've given it more than once. 

Now THIS is what I consider to be a good answer.  In fact the best answer thus far.  However, unfortunately, in looking through the link provided I was not able to see anything which actually states that one can do anything more than the standard wire transfer.

Look again: http://www.fcbank.com.ua/private/order/ This bank gives you several other options.


Daveyj, I'm not Canadian so don't know all the legalities and options, but after a quick cruise thru PrivatBank online it seems that registered customers may use PrivatMoney, WesternUnion, or MoneyGram transfer services. Not as many as the first bank I mentioned, but certainly more than just WU.

I wish you well.

[daveyj]

Go back and read. I've given it more than once. 
Look again: http://www.fcbank.com.ua/private/order/ This bank gives you several other options.

Mendeleyev, I've looked over that site (and that link) quite extensively.  The link references various cash transfer services (western union, moneygram, etc), but none of those can be transfered directly into someone's account.  It is simply that one can show up at the bank and pick up the western union/moneygram transfer.  This is pretty standard.

Similarly, the site references various "bank transfer" (presumably wire transfers).  Again, pretty standard.

But I can't see anything which provides a retail option to transfer money directly into someone's account. (ie. such as paypay can do)

If you (or anyone else) can point to something specific which describes this, then I welcome that.   But if not, I can't really  prove the absence of something from the site which doesn't exist on the site

[dbneeley]

I seem to be a bit late to this party, but I do have some experience in this area.

We use Privatbank in Ukraine, which we think is one of the more fiscally sound ones. My wife established two accounts there; one is her regular account, and one is an account using U.S. dollars. We move money from my U.S. account to the dollar account here for the lowest costs we can get.

If you can find a bank with low costs for international wire transfers, your best bet might be to have your lady establish a dollar account in one of the major banks. That is because many U.S. banks charge an extra fee if they transfer funds in a foreign currency--over and above what is quite often a rather miserable exchange rate to begin with. Banks on this end will usually hit you with a percentage for handling the transaction, too--often about three per cent.

My current U.S. bank charges $40 for an international wire transfer; next time I am in the States I will be seeking a new bank with lower fees--quite possibly one of the Internet-based banks like IDG or Ally. Unless I am mistaken, they are a more economical route to go.

Those Westerners living in Ukraine may or may not be able to establish a local bank account. I know that Privatbank will not permit an account for a foreigner unless he has a legal resident visa--which I now have, but have not yet bothered to obtain a local account.

Of the two major "money by wire" services by far the least expensive is Moneygram. In fact, frequent users get a discount card to save a bit more. Depending upon the wire transfer rates your bank charges and the amounts you are sending, I would compare the direct costs of bank wire transfer and the Moneygram rates. For smaller amounts, it is actually cheaper for me to use Moneygram than to wire transfer.

Of course, I can also transfer smaller amounts via my debit card. That, too, entails fees--three percent to the local bank (on average) and the five percent Chase charges for transfer into a foreign currency.

At one time, there were services that allowed you to get a debit card for a lady friend abroad, tied to an account that you simply did not fund much beyond the amount you were transferring. Whether this is an option today I do not know; I am aware that several of the services that allowed this are no longer in business.

Since I live here, my wife carries one of the debit cards for my Chase account; however, since she has never been to the U.S. to sign the account paperwork (and has no U.S. tax ID either), she cannot be a named owner on the account there. However, she uses one of my cards occasionally without problem.

Finally, be aware that a normal U.S. account that shows activity on an ATM card in a foreign country--especially when you yourself are active in the States--will generally cause an account suspension by the bank's anti-fraud unit, at least until you convince them to permit it. It took three such account freezes for me to finally get it through Chase's system that charges in Ukraine are not themselves necessarily unusual or suspicious. (However, when I traveled back to the States they did inquire if I was actually making the charges suddenly appearing in Texas!)

I hope you may find some of this helpful.

David

[mendeleyev]

db, depending on how long you plan to remain in Ukraine, you may wish to look for banks with international correspondent status. When posted full time in Russia my primary US bank was Wells Fargo which has an international correspondent relationship in Moscow.

Russia required that foreign wages be paid in a manner that allowed additional withholding for taxes in both juridictions. I received a second check monthly which came thru Royal Bank of Canada's New York affiliate to a "correspondent" bank in Moscow. Royal has since pulled out of Russia but to this day however maintains a correspondent status with Privat, your bank in Ukraine.

HSBC is one of the most popular banks for expats in the FSU. I think the minimum deposit is around $25K.

Citibank USA has correspondent status with ExpoBank of Ukraine. Turkiye Bank of Ukraine has affiliate relations all over Canada - http://www.isbank.com.tr/English/content/EN/International_Banking/Correspondent_Banks/CANADA.aspx

[dbneeley]

db, depending on how long you plan to remain in Ukraine, you may wish to look for banks with international correspondent status. When posted full time in Russia my primary US bank was Wells Fargo which has an international correspondent relationship in Moscow.

Mendy,

We use Privatbank in Ukraine, which has a correspondent relationship with Chase in the U.S., which is indeed where I maintain my account.

That makes transfers easier and quicker, but banks here are still expensive.

I did relatively well in the legal coursework regarding "commercial paper"--which is where we learn about money and banking from a legal standpoint (including currency, electronic transfer, letters of credit, etc.). Thus, before I came, I specifically opened the Chase account precisely because it is the primary clearing house for Privatbank in the U.S. That greatly reduces the likelihood of issues later.

David

[ML]

First, she needs to open a simple account at a bank affiliate of Electron cards (Visa). A good one would be Ukraine's Finance and Credit bank (also known as UniCredit bank).

Bluntly, the on-line provisions were fashioned after a series of meetings between the Finance Ministers of Ukraine and Canada and designed to make it easier for Canada's large Ukrainian diaspora to send money back home.

The Bank is recognized as the Agent Bank of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine for the servicing of the international Lines of Credit so it's about as safe as one can expect.

http://www.fcbank.com.ua/private/i_bank/

mendeleyev thanks for adding a lot of input  into this thread.

However, upon checking, the Finance and Credit Bank is NOT the UniCredit Bank.

Two very different banks.

So I am wondering which one you feel is the Agent Bank of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine.

Thanks for your help.

[mendeleyev]

ManLooking, thanks for pointing that out. You are right--Unicredit Bank was the former Bank Pekao before being purchased by a banking group headquarted in Milan (Italy). That international structure gives it branches in 22 countries. 

The Ministers of the government sit as the governing board of the National Bank of Ukraine, an institution similar to the US Federal Reserve Bank. The Finance and Credit bank was designated as the bank serving the Cabinet of Ministers for international banking in 1998. In 2004 they were named the lead bank for payments of citizen pensions.

I have not found anything on the government of Prime Minister Mykola Azarov changing that relationship with F&C. As they were the bank responsible for adding a large sum of the new $50 USA dollar to the government's foreign reserve collection earlier, it seems they still perform the functions of international banking for the Council of Ministers.

[ML]

uh oh!  Now I am wondering if Finance and Credit bank is so safe after all . . . since they are the bank for paying pensions as you say.

The government pension system in Ukraine is near total collapse.

What this will say for deposits in the bank; I don't know.

Any ideas?

[mendeleyev]

If the state defaults on those payments, any bank involved in the payouts will be in trouble. At that point with so many people counting on state pensions and related payments, likely the government would risk collaspe.

As for F&C ratings, they are audited by KPMG annually. Here is a page which has little info except how they rank as compared to other banks in Ukraine. http://www.fcbank.com.ua/en/about/rating/aubr/ (There are a total of 3 ratings so near the bottom of the page you can link to Moody's, etc)

[dbneeley]

Finance and Credit Bank would certainly not be my personal choice in Ukraine, based upon the financial soundness indicated on the link posted.

Privatbank, by contrast: http://www.privatbank.com.ua/html/2_4_3r.html

Note that among banks in Ukraine it is number 1 in all categories save one where it is number 3.

(I was somewhat astonished to see that FC was number 154 in one category and not all that high in several others.)

David

[Gylden]

Is anyone on RWD cashing in on the interest rates paid on USD denominated accounts in Ukraine?