Rose picture of Kiev attitude to ukrainian soldiers because of lack of access to first-hand info. Do you know about the truck with wounded ukrainian soldiers during retreat under Debaltsevo? The truck was broken on the move, so all wounded were deserted to freeze to death. Only one has survived because rebels find him after 3 days. Do you know real stories how ukrainian soldiers are treated by their bosses? Though all these details are not important for you so I will not elaborate. You talk about treatment to captured? What is your view on the recent story, when ukrainians have shot off two forefingers of captured rebel on camera?
Well, well, I must have struck a nerve. You normally ignore me, Belvis.
Alright, from the top:
Lack of access to first hand info - If by "first hand info" you mean lack of exposure to the Russian propaganda machine and Kremlin approved media? You'd be wrong.
Unfortunately, I'm inundated by it. It's everywhere on the net, social sites, comment sections, forums. What you refer to as information infects just about every aspect of mass media/communication in the western hemisphere. And if that wasn't enough western media in the interests of "balanced reporting" also usually gives the Russian version of any given story even though it's obviously slanted, self serving and/or out and out BS. So that one won't fly. I have plenty of access to "first hand info."
The retreat from Debaltsevo - Do you know how disinformation works, Belvis?
Alter the factual reporting of let's say, a battle, just enough to mislead, assign unwarranted blame, deflect responsibility, change perception or as it appears in this case, elicit a certain response from a target audience.
So, to paraphrase your comments above, you would have us believe the Ukrainian government do not treat their soldiers properly, abandon their wounded (on the field of battle) and if not for the "rebels" coming to the rescue at least one more Ukrainian soldier would have died, yes? Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting the gist of your comment.
Now, let's look at another description of the cauldron that was Debaltsevo...
..."Standing in front of the presidential plane in a camouflage coat before leaving Kiev for a visit to the front line, Ukraine’s leader Petro Poroshenko said he had ordered the “planned and organised retreat” from the strategically important rail hub after the opposing side had denied access to European observers.
But the withdrawal seemed anything but orderly, and Prekharia said the decision to pull back had been made by the senior commanders on the ground when they saw that the situation was becoming catastrophic. Other soldiers said artillery and ambushes had been waiting for them on their way out.
Combat medic Albert Sardarian said he had been woken up at 1am for a sudden withdrawal in armoured vehicles with about 1,000 other men. Pro-Russia forces ambushed the column in the morning, so the survivors had to continue on foot, leaving their dead and wounded behind."...
www.theguardian.com...Same facts, different perception. You quipped the details aren't important to me so you wouldn't elaborate. Well the truth of the matter is you never offer details only narrative to elicit a certain emotion. I can post a dozen newspaper accounts of the battle describing "in detail" accounts of the battle from all sides, can you?
My view on the recent story, when ukrainians have shot off two forefingers of captured rebel on camera? Right. Well, apparently this young man has amazingly bad luck because in this vid the Ukrainian soldiers
cut his fingers off...
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
http://www.youtube.com/embed/Vkft8ZhdoL8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
However, in this vid the same young man is reported to have had his fingers shot off...
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
http://www.youtube.com/embed/W4A4uJdjURk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Now in the interest of accuracy I'd like to know how the two narratives of the victim reconcile the difference in methods of amputation.
Russia has no option to recognize Russian soldiers there. It would mean the declaration of war to Ukraine. It seems to me the covered operations of special forces are more preferable for Ukraine than the open Ukraine-Russian war. Kiev also understands the reason and does not call the war as "war" but antiterrorist operation at Donbass.
Exactly. It's laudable that you actually acknowledge there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine. However, you are off base that Kiev also understands the reason - Kiev is screaming to high heaven that there are Russian regulars operating in Ukraine. That by definition is invasion or war by any other name.
Meanwhile Donetsk lives not only by war, people there are building normal life beyond frame of Ukraine while politicians are negotiating. Beauty contest in Donetsk, June 2015:
PS. I doubt the photo from Donetsk, it illustrated the news, but anyway I like the picture.
PSS. OK, here is the photo of Donetsk contest, the qualifying cut:
Nice. I don't know why but I'm reminded of that String Quartet playing lounge music on the deck of the Titanic.
Brass
Edit: I would add two things:
1) If that boy was mistreated then charges should be brought to the individuals responsible. Mistreatment of captured soldiers, militants, separatists is not acceptable.
2) What happened at Debaltsevo was due to a lack of training and discipline under fire at the senior NCO and Officer level. The Canadians, US and Brits are addressing this issue with western level infantry training and combat knowledge. Once the training is implemented I doubt you'll see a repeat of Debaltsevo
