Differences in Post Communist Societies

[ML]

Hi Ario! Welcome aboard RWD. I am newlywed (one month) to a UW and living in Lviv, western Ukraine. Having stayed in many large Ukrainian cities while courting my eastern Ukrainian (Luhansk) wife, we both definitely and immensely prefer living in Lviv.

However, we have just returned from Krakow, where I went to obtain my Ukrainian 'Type D' spousal immigrant visa. We were both extremely impressed with what Poland has accomplished with its quarter century of freedom, compared to almost no advancement for Ukraine , and retrograde devolution into a tyrannical dictatorship for Russia. You might consider meeting someone from eastern Europe, i.e., Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, the Balkans, and the Baltics. Their progress in de-communizing and installing the respect and desire for liberty and democratic self-governance, without the destabilizing influences of autocratic oligarchs and other descendants of the former soviet elite nomenclatura, is very significant. I very much appreciate living in a 'slavic' culture; in Poland it was nice to see what it would be like without the prolonged CCCP hangover affecting life in so many respects, even in anti-soviet locales such as Lviv.

CC3 and others.

If, what CC3 says about Poland is true:

How can it be explained that Poland was able to more completely throw off the yoke of communism than Ukraine?

How can it be explained that Poland was able to more completely avoid a takeover by oligarchs than what happened in Ukraine?

[2tallbill]

How can it be explained that Poland was able to more completely throw off the yoke of communism than Ukraine?

How can it be explained that Poland was able to more completely avoid a takeover by oligarchs than what happened in Ukraine?

Poland was shackled with a milder version of communism than Ukraine. They were
more ethnically homogeneous, far more church going and they had less similarities
with Russia and Russians. They weren't as Russified as Ukraine was. Over half of
Ukraine considered themselves Russians and that was never the case in Poland.

Remember all those old Polish jokes? Well the Poles were a thorn in the side of
Russia and communism. They had protests in Warsaw that would have caused
the tanks to start rolling if they happened in Kiev. The Polish language, alphabet
and religion were more different than Ukraine/Russia and then they were accepted
into both the EU and NATO.

Ukraine suffered under a harsher version of communism and had been far more
Russified. Russia had their puppets in place before they let go of Ukraine while
they let the Poles go at the first opportunity. There are other reasons too, it might
be interesting to get Boes take on this.

[cc3]

I don't know the reasons in response to your questions. I only know what I have witnessed personally. Maybe there are others with different impressions of eastern Europe. From a time in my life pre-Ukraine, I am also relatively familiar with Bulgaria. Although feeling freer and less corrupt than Ukraine, civic life and physical and social infrastructure there did not seem as advanced as Poland.

[Slumba]

CC3 and others.

If, what CC3 says about Poland is true:

How can it be explained that Poland was able to more completely throw off the yoke of communism than Ukraine?

How can it be explained that Poland was able to more completely avoid a takeover by oligarchs than what happened in Ukraine?

Russia and Ukraine are Orthodox, Poland Catholic.  So the Catholic Church in various ways, served as a counter-weight to both the the atheist and religious parts of the USSR.  Also "they are not like us" thinking due to religious differences.

[Gylden]

Many of the former soviet/soviet influenced countries had lustration, which helped a lot IMO.

Also Poland wasn't in the Soviet Union.

[cc3]

Will some degree of lustration, other than for show to please the EU, US, and IMF, ever happen in UA?

[oso]

Hello and welcome Ariovistus. I bid you well on your quest to meet a woman from the FSU. I also live in Ukraine, and here is where I found a wonderful woman who knocks my socks off every day. I do have to agree with CC3 that Poland would also be a place to look. As most of the threads here turn into a political debate, I did notice it's title "hello everyone" and replied to that ......

[ML]

Moderators . . . please move CC3's posting, my response to his, and the others that refer to it to a new thread.

I think  it is an important topic.

[2tallbill]

Many of the former soviet/soviet influenced countries had lustration, which helped a lot IMO.

Also Poland wasn't in the Soviet Union.

Good point also the KGB wasn't able to take over everything like they did in Ukraine.
The KGB were hated and would have been burned at the stake and buried in the woods
if they said, "OK, now we are taking control of this industry/factory."  The KGB bandits
owned or controlled everything in Ukraine and nearly nothing in Poland.

Most of Ukraine's trade was with Russia and that gave Russia control. Most of Poland's
trade was with the West (60%) and that thwarted Russian control.

[2tallbill]

Here are some related articles




Poland and Ukraine: a tale of two economies
http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/attachments/pdf/2014/bulletin_95_st_article1-8624.pdf

This second article is titled incorrectly, unless the lesson is on building a time machine

Polish Lessons for the Ukrainian Economy
Can Ukraine fix its dire economic situation by taking lessons from Poland?
http://www.theglobalist.com/polish-lessons-for-the-ukrainian-economy/