Finding sincere Ukrainian girls.....

[Turboguy]

  Long story short version is that you're just as likely, if not more so, to be eaten alive by an AW, so why not try with a foreign woman?

Jerry

I have to agree with you 100% on this.  I have to look back on my 18 year marriage to an AW and my failed K-1 to Luda as both being big mistakes, but the marriage experience was the one that was the real disaster. 

Of the friends I have who are single, I just don't see any as having even *most* of the total package required for success. Every last one of them has commented repeatedly that they'd love to find a woman like Liliya but IMO none fully are prepared or equipped to make the dream a reality. You can teach a guy how to spot a scam, and how not to make a cultural faux-pa overseas, but you can't teach them patience, tolerance, sense of adventure, relationship skills, or personal financial responsibility. Those are things one needs to have going in. Not a matter of jealously protecting what others covet, but merely trying to protect friends from making a mistake that would have a long term negative impact on their lives (and possibly the lives of the women they meet).

Nice post Jet.   I think I have become fairly experienced at some aspects of all this but as far as building a successful long term relationship with an FSU woman I can't make that claim.  (Hopefully I will be able to in the future)  I think as far as trying to define the qualites that can lead to success you have hit the nail right on the head and I think someone who doesn't possess every single one of those along with a real commitment to both the FSU woman and the relationship does not have much of a chance.

[groovlstk]

That is that this whole notion of "disaster stories" and "being chewed up and spit out" isn't limited to women in the FSU, but is highly likely to occur with AW, which is one of the reasons why I began a search across the pond some years ago.  Long story short version is that you're just as likely, if not more so, to be eaten alive by an AW, so why not try with a foreign woman?

Jerry, I agree with everything else you said except the above. FSU women have much greater motivation to "use" a guy (whether it's for a free meal, gifts, or a green card) than your average US girl and at the same time there doesn't seem to be much condemnation from their society at large towards this type of behavior. AJ said it best in a post weeks ago, something like "your typical FSU woman will run over a nice guy like a Mack truck and show less remorse for it than the truck will."

[Albert]

FSU women have much greater motivation to "use" a guy (whether it's for a free meal, gifts, or a green card) than your average US girl and at the same time there doesn't seem to be much condemnation from their society at large towards this type of behavior. AJ said it best in a post weeks ago, something like "your typical FSU woman will run over a nice guy like a Mack truck and show less remorse for it than the truck will."

- - - - - -

I agree.  Also, remember from the comments in my thread about the man mostly all getting the blame . . . . guys on these boards are also loath to condem the women for any actions.  So the gals are mostly getting a free pass, both from their society and from ours.

[Albert]

The poll that is running on the other thread shows equal success-- 31 guys found girls in Ukraine and 30 found their partner in Russia. The careful guy can succeed in either country.

- - - - - - -

Actually, gals from Ukraine are preferred over those from Russia, on a relative basis.

Based on population size, there should be 90 or so gals from Russia to match with the 31 from Ukraine.

[Turboguy]

I have to wonder if some of that is not that it is just so much easier to visit Ukriane and probably a little bit cheaper as well.

[groovlstk]

Also, in general Ukrainians seem to regard Americans a bit higher than Russians.

I was shocked to see how even the venerable Pravda covers US current events, have a look here:
http://english.pravda.ru/

My favorite headlines about US events are:

Women rape men when they have no one to have sex with

Bush: Alone, isolated and universally hated

Pentagon's head falls off. Russia prepares to fight

Condoleezza Rice's sexual worries in the White House

[Sohkay]

The "women rape men" headline is definitely outrageous.

[SANDRO43]

The "women rape men" headline is definitely outrageous.

How can I get a visa to the USA ?

[DKMM]

Its funny to read that Borat was banned in Russia.  Anybody here seen that with their RW?  I would never take the chance, lest I get caught laughing at something offensive.  Still, I knew a certain girl in Moscow that would love it to death.

[av8or1]

Jerry, I agree with everything else you said except the above. FSU women have much greater motivation to "use" a guy (whether it's for a free meal, gifts, or a green card) than your average US girl and at the same time there doesn't seem to be much condemnation from their society at large towards this type of behavior. AJ said it best in a post weeks ago, something like "your typical FSU woman will run over a nice guy like a Mack truck and show less remorse for it than the truck will."

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then.  I would say that AW have a greater motivation to use men than RW/UW.  Many of the men on RWD keep talking about how the standard of living is improving in the FSU and therefore women are less interested in foreign men from a financial perspective, then you make this assertion.  Can't have it both ways, though I don't know where you stand on the "improving conditions" issue in the FSU.  No, the reality is that AW overall are the most greedy on this planet and the ones I've seen will have no remorse whatsoever about doing whatever it takes to achieve their goals, kinda like what you said above regarding FSU women.  Never will forget when an ex of mine accidentally recorded herself on my machine (this was years ago) when talking to a girlfriend of hers.  Long story short version was that my gal, who I thought was a good hearted person, told her friend to be certain to "clean out" her soon-to-be-ex-husband during the divorce.  "Take him for everything he's got and then some.  Forget 50% that isn't even close to being enough!  They should change that to 90% because men don't need much to live on and they're losers anyway!"

Needless to say our relationship didn't last past that weekend..........

I will agree with Albert however WRT men getting the blame and these women getting away Scott free, that does happen.  'Problem is that it happens here too and because of our PC society, it's even "more ok" for the woman to do whatever she has to do, "after all she has a tougher life than a man..."  Sheesh.

Best to all,

Jerry

[DKMM]

There are ways to protect against that, and I don't mean prenups.  But it depends on your financial situation, if you are a high earner rather than high net worth you are pretty screwed for support payments.  Get a good accountant (I'm not for hire unless you live in OR) to show you how.

[Jumper]

Jerry-
this isnt really about AW vs RW..
no need to put either on a pedestal or to degrade either nationaly as well?
good and bad people everywhere in the world?
pretty evenly distrubuted.

but what we are talking about is  a cultural difference.

if it was a RM ,, and he could use a AW to get to a better situation, in another country with a far greater potential for succes.
most of his peers -wether male or female- would say he was foolish not to.and applaud him for doing so.
also strangely enough-
if he was ultimately successful they would not be happy for him.

it is a cultural trait.of course there are exceptions..but thats the norm.
I dont think you cant begin to compare the two cultures at thier roots.they are just different, not better or worse.

I'm sure they exist- but I dont know any AM that would high five thier buddies over marrying a woman with full intentions of cleaning her out finacially..or marrying her for the sole intentions of a passport to a better life.

the one thing is,, IF they were high fiving him ,, they would continue to be happy for him if he succeeded.?

anyway if these generalities  apply to the males in a society,
its pretty sure to apply somewhat to the female population as well.

also lets be a bit realistic-
if you REALLY believe the FSU has gained so much prosperity
to equal things, and cause no additional reasons for there to be "users" 

then why dont we see all those evil AW you disdain, relocating to the FSU to take advantage of the  *new Russsian men*  ?

The fact is that there is still a disparity, and yes it is great enough ,, (this board would not exist if it wasnt)
that even if the culture and ethics were identical..in the womens nationalities..
all things being equal-
 RW would still have more motivation to use a man for marriage..

to completely ignore this, or decide it just isnt so,  is silly.

The truth is, wether you believe it or not,, no matter how evil AW might be ,,
often in Russian culture a woman using a man would be seen as a "matter of course" and perhaps viewed as clever.

Sure AW can be the same...

and absolutely Yes there are sweethearts over there! (and here)

a simple question jerry-
 if you knew nothing at all  about either small business-
would you honestly be more comfortable doing business with a small Ukrainian company or a small western one? lets say a conmpany in Donyest vs one in Vancover..
in general?
and why?

if you think internationally in business its the same song and dance as here,,, well thats your view. and well i have some business ventures you might be interested in. i lived long term in quite a few countries, it IS significantly different.

and if you think biz ethics arent formed and founded in the personal side of things???

maybe  back away a bit and see that your past painful experience,
may not be letting you see the whole picture clearly.
 

i'm not saying to avoid RW they are all awful.
im just saying to take off what appears to be rose colored glasses so as to improve your odds..
 MOST RW here  would tell you plainly that going there to marry is a big gamble. They would advise you to be very ,yes VERY careful.

you can state AW divorce stats all day..
and say that the risks arnt any higher.
but they are higher, for cultural reasons and the very simple fact most men, just cant have the time to know someone- thier friends and family -  as well as if they arnt local..
in addition cross cultural does put added stress for just daily reasons, like extensive long travel to see family etc..mundane stuff but it will add complexity....
 
and facing that,recognizing it exists at least ,  and preparing for it .. gives you a better chance at a happy marriage IMHO.

YMMV

[Turboguy]

Nice post AJ.   Now I understand why when I went to the big agency tours when we went in the door they assigned us an interpreter, the gave us a name tag and they handed us a pair of rose colored glasses.

I think anyone who keeps in mind the things you say would increase their chance of success.   I think there are a lot more differences in the culture there than it appears on the surface, particularly to a newbie.

[Gator]

AJ,

Excellent explanation of why RW are different.  Clever analogy -  small business in Russia vs. here.

[tim 360]

Nice post AJ.  Good for most to know that things are "culturally" different in a systemic way and you put it very well.  I know 3 former FSU girls who have come here in the past 3 years and not one wants to return...except to visit.  And $ and opportunity do have alot to do with it.  Things may be getting better in Ukraine and Russia,  but that will take more time. 

The technical production of billions of cheap cell phones worldwide does not erase the overall disparity which you speak of. Cheerio,tim360

[av8or1]

Jerry-
this isnt really about AW vs RW..
no need to put either on a pedestal or to degrade either nationaly as well?
good and bad people everywhere in the world?
pretty evenly distrubuted.

but what we are talking about is  a cultural difference.

Whatever AJ, I did neither of the above, don't know how you made that leap, but I'm too tired tonight to care either.  I never said that conditions are the same, I said "improving" nor did I fail to realize that it's a "cultural difference" (hmmmm...wonder why that is, maybe because we live in different countries???) that is usually the problem in this whole thing.  Of course there's good and bad everywhere, which is what I was trying to get at, but maybe I didn't make that clear enough.  Your business analogy is silly to me, that too is a leap that I won't make, though several on this board have already done so.  Then the AW and RM thing?  What the heck was/is that about?  There's no market for such an animal because AW have all the male possibilities here they could want.  I have rose colored glasses?  Since when would that be exactly?  I never said that FSU women are the answer of all answers.  I have been there and experienced it enough to know better.  The problem is that the AW I meet in between trips usually serve only to remind me why I went to the FSU in the first place.  So I dunno AJ, maybe you should step back and take another look at my post, it wasn't the AW-are-the-root-of-all-evil proclamation that you make it out to be.  Basically, I wrote it as a reminder that AW will also use-up a man because someone else was only posting about how FSU women do that.  In essence I was saying that FSU women aren't the only ones.  Did you even read my post?

Alright enough, you make little sense to me but eh, whatever.  As you say, YMMV.  I'm out.

Best to all,

Jerry

[Jumper]

Jerry-
 I stand corrected on what you actually posted.
true enough , it wasnt the *ALL AW are evil* post that i made it out to be.
However, i do get that vibe (maybe incorrectly) from many of your posts, and was responding to that mentality.
A mentality many posters on these boards have,that AW are so horrible anything would be equal , or better.
and thats what i was addressing.

Honestly I should not have made it a direct responce to "jerry" and been made more in general. My apologies.

The following  statement of yours ,and your explanation of it..
which does paint AW in a fairly EVIL light..?
led me to give my take on why  RW do indeed have more motivation..to use men.

I would say that AW have a greater motivation to use men than RW/UW.

I was stateing RW do have greater  motivation, and why i believe that to be true.
economic, cultural , and yes even business ethics reasons
(as business ethics are rooted in personal ethics)

you quite correctly take me to task a bit for embellishing your
stance,

yet nothing in your reply explains why you think AW have GREATER motivation..
only that AW can be "users" also.

thats a fairly big difference?
enough that  i would not have made my post at all ,
 if thats all you initially stated.
*shrugs*

[Michelangelo]

Stil waiting to see that puppy, AJ 

[av8or1]

yet nothing in your reply explains why you think AW have GREATER motivation..
only that AW can be "users" also.

That's true I never actually said why, guess I thought it was a little more of an obvious, intuitive answer, but maybe only to me.  Anyway, I made that assertion because AW are here (that's the obvious part) and as a result they know more about how "the money game in marriage" works (which I state intuitively from my experience).  As a result, it is my belief that AW have a greater motivation because they know a lot more about what they stand to gain and they also know a lot more about the "how-to" of going about getting what they stand to gain.  By contrast the FSU woman can only know shades of grey - at best - about the same subject, though some RW/UW learn quickly once they arrive, after which some of them care, some don't.  In addition, because of the social and political pressure that AW feel to "be independent" (and for many other reasons too) I believe that they care more about the money issue than the average FSU woman.  Please note that I am NOT saying that the average FSU woman doesn't care about it at all, just less than the average AW.  Note that I said "average", eg - there are exceptions everywhere, hence the "good and bad everywhere" part of my second post.  This is the issue of motivation, which I believe AW hold a slight edge in.  Where AW set themselves apart from FSUW is the second half of the equation which is the knowledge and experience of how our system works.  Though it is possible for FSUW to rise and be in their ballpark, I think that AW will still always hold the edge in this department too.  And no, I am not saying that the men who do this foreign wife thing are looking for a "stupid" or "naive" (to the ways of our society) woman to be with, so save your flames.  Personally intelligence is high on my list and I would educate my foreign wife about how our system works in detail.  My hope is that she wouldn't care.  But I digress...

I believe that there are people who will be "bad" in any situation, country or economy.  If you are unlucky enough to end up with one of these creatures and she takes you for some $$$ either before or after she's in the USA, I don't think you can say that it's because she doesn't/hasn't earn/earned money, that she's from a country with a poor economy, etc.  She'd probably do the same thing no matter where she was, it's her character.  I say this because I have met a lot of Russians who live very meager lives and who KNOW the difference but (again) who don't care.  Despite KNOWING that they don't live high on the hog, they still wouldn't cheat/lie/whatever to gain some cash/gifts/whatever from anyone, foreign or not.  I think it's a woman with this kind of character that we all seek.

Basically what I am saying is that it's all too easy to say that a woman from an oppressed country (and Lord don't start flaming me about how the FSU isn't "oppressed", I know that, am using that term loosely in a comparison to the USA!) will have more motivation to steal/cheat/whatever from you than a woman from a strong country will be.  I just don't believe that.  In fact, I think that the opposite is usually true.  But there's good and bad everywhere, so it's possible to find a bad apple.  What I want to shout about is that her motivation to "do bad" isn't necessarily originating from a poor existence, but rather it's in her nature to do such things.  Maybe she doesn't seem them as "bad", maybe lots of reasons...but now I am seriously rambling...

Ok, long winded answer, but you were right about me not spelling it out before, so...this is my opinion and as you so correctly noted, YMMV.  Thanks for the reminder...

Originally my motivation in posting at all was in regard to the issue of risky endeavors.  I agree with the others who have stated that this foreign courtship idea is risky.  Sure it is, but what I believe that we can't leave out is that a "stateside" courtship is equally as risky (if not more so).  After all, that is usually the motivation that drives us across the pond in the first place, at least it does me anyway.  Now maybe the issues between the two flavors have some commonality, maybe they don't.  Maybe the reasons are slight different and maybe they're not.  So much depends on so many things, as we all know, but in the big, overall, general, here's-the-world picture, I believe that finding a spouse is a risky proposition period, no matter where you look.  And that goes for BOTH sides of the fence.  Of course I realize this too and am sympathetic to the difficulties that women encounter.  However, the subject area is about AM/FSUW so I have kept my comments limited to this context.

Best to all,

Jerry

[Kuna]

May I just say that any man from the west that has attained significant success in life will eventually learn to be very careful of the women he dates in his own community. 

A relationship needs more than a wide "financial differential" to build and maintain a successful relationship.

It's a simple fact that most women seek increased security and stability through the partners they choose for themselves, and that fact knows no boundaries. Some western women WILL abuse an opportunity that presents itself, just like some RW will do.

There must be a lot of men who think marrying someone from an economically harsh country (Eastern Europe, parts of Asia, South American countries, etc) will result "relationship utopia".

Of course, any relationship that is based purely on economic inequality will have a much higher risk than one based on genuine compatibility.

Are the men that get caught in "green card scams" perhaps unrealistic in their choice of partners or are Russian women inherently untrustworthy? 

I don't think average Russian woman will be any less trustworthy than the average western woman, but any man that thinks he can buy love is heading for a pounding no matter who he's with. 

There's no doubt there are women out there who will exploit an opportunity to advance themselves through whatever means possible, but I don't think that has anything to do with culture or nationality.

Some of the best advice I've read anywhere was in an e-book by the owner of Elena's Models (No, I'm not associated with that agency in any way, other than being a subscriber).  It's generally in line with much of the advice in here except maybe less distorted by personal experience and emotional pain.

If the above isn't true I think I'll just stay at home and get exploited here...   

Kuna

[jb]

There's no doubt there are women out there who will exploit an opportunity to advance themselves through whatever means possible, but I don't think that has anything to do with culture or nationality.

There's real wisdom in that statement.

I always shake my head when I see threads like this one, anyone who enters into this with that same "pet store" mentality is going to be dead meat.  If anyone thinks that he will only find a sincere woman in Ukraine or Russia then he should end his search right now.  We find sincere people in the damnest places, it could even be in your own back yard. 

[Gator]

There are many beautiful women in Ukraine.  There are many sincere women in Ukraine.  The terms are not mutually exclusive, but they certainly do not coincide based on what I have heard and read.

I met many good looking (albeit 30s and 40s) women in Ukraine.  All seemed sincere about marrying Mr. Right from a strange land.   Some, however, were too argumentative, too independent, and too (fill in the blank) to be my Ms. Right.  This did not make them insincere.

[Jumper]

 I believe there are fundamental differences in cultures,and it can get in tnto the personakl ethics area very quickly.

Variuos cultures can hold certain things in contempt while others honor it?
 There are certainly cultures where stealing, or such,  is viewed far worse than others, where it may be shrugged off as "well thats how it is"
  its a given that an average westerner would not be comfortrable
with the average ethics of some other cultures.
on "average "  to marry a person from them would dramatically increase risk.

 As far as the FSU verses the western culture..
in business sense there are some fundamentaly menatility differences.
I do think it carries over and is founded in personal mentalities as well.

Its true enough, shady chrarcters abound everywhere.
There are plenty in the west to go around.

But lets cut thru the BS?
 
due to cultural mentality, or ecomomic pressures
   or who knows what..
certainly in the business world you would need to be very careful in the FSU. MUCH more careful than in the west.


why?
someone answer this fundamental question.

at its root it isnt pretty, and it will effect where you are loking for a person to share your life with.

you cannot seperate  "crappy" business ethics, from the average persons mentality.
To use someone for ecomoic gain in business or in personal life, is
less condemend , in the average mindset of FSU culture.

average yuri on the street is far more apt to add a little to someones price,for some service or another,
if he can ..
than average joe in the west 

we dont have a foreigner price here.
there are western rates there..

to ignore some basic things that DO reflect a different base mentality "on average"  IMHO is folly.

There are millions of FSU people with impeccible character.
but those same people would warn almost any westerner about doing business ,trusting, or marrying in the FSU anyone they did not personally know.

why?


is it simply they dont trust easily,, or is it a indicator of something a little more edgy?

ask some expats..

hey of course who you marry is an individual!
 and THIER character is all that matters.


but if you are fishing for tarpoon in the great lakes ..
 you will need to be very very good fisherman.


if you guys for one minute think the average joe..
reading an MOB site , going thru an agency, or going thru fre personals and meeting a RW thuru these methods..
isnt at an elevated risk of meeting insincere people,both in the business and in the women he meets..
than in his hometown..
then wow i have some business oppurtunities for YOU!

this thread isnt about the average FSU persion.
or the cultural differences !
which on avaerage my belief is you would find a higher incidence of insincerety in regards to marriageto a foregn man.
 

it is about the average FSU person a guy will meet,
 going thru the *normal process*?

we are really debating the average sincerety (and risks)
of a local woman.. verses THAT situation?

My wife ,and any other Russian or Ukranian i know, male or female,
would tell you all that you are flippin out of your minds For even thinking of debating that.

I'm not saying that you cant find a good match for you and a person of good character,and sincerety  in the FSU.

you can!

but to think the average AW is MORE likely to use you, than the average RW you willl meet (sans living there full time in a normal life) is scary!

you just have to know the odds are higher ,MIUCH hiher in these scenerios, of people being insincere to you there.
in my belief a key step in avoiding those people and moving on to those you would be interested in.

sorry for what appears a rant..

i just cant get past the obviuos thing that sound minded business men in the west know well to be on a more catuios plain when dealing in the eastern european block,and they know gawed danged wrell why.
 yet they believe  the average FSU women they will meet are as sincere as average jane doe down the block.

sorry guys that does NOT make any sense.
 

you WILL have to be more careful.
sincerety level is not as high in the situation you will be pout in "on averege" 

you want to debate it? take it up with a persn from the FSU.
who *in general* thinks Americans are gulable and naive.

why is that general FSU thinking?

 

[groovlstk]

My wife ,and any other Russian or Ukranian i know, male or female,
would tell you all that you are flippin out of your minds For even thinking of debating that.

I have been warned repeatedly by Ukrainian and Russian men and women--some who live in the US, others in their native countries--to forget about looking for a wife in either country due to the danger of hooking up with someone who'd marry me for the wrong reasons.

When I am with my fiancee in Russia, everyone outside of her closest friends and family immediately assume that she's with me simply for the economic benefits. On my last trip she got tired of having to explain to people that I wasn't her meal ticket and eventually told everyone we met that we were married. It goes a long way towards showing not only how we're perceived by the average Russian person, but of how many times they've seen sexy Olgas taking advantage of Western men's gullibility.

[BillyB]

 I believe there are fundamental differences in cultures,and it can get in tnto the personakl ethics area very quickly.

I agree with you on that although, ultimately, an individual eventually must be judge on an individual level. There's no doubt in my mind even in America, certain groups of people think much different than others. Look at the way city and country folks vote. Their values are way different and no doubt people's personal values are affected by the people who surround them and even educate them.

So if there's a survival mentality in the FSU to where a woman should get the best man by any methods, even if it's stealing him from his wife, then it shall be done and probably not looked down upon her peers. Maybe her peers will consider her smart and even admire and envy her. There's not even a thought of concealing ones actions in the FSU in many circumstances and a woman and married man could walk down the street hand in hand with little regard of getting caught. Of course there will be women with strong character who see this as wrong no matter how society accepts it. Some women are content with the fact her husband will have a mistress as long as she's still #1 and he's bringing home the bacon. Other women won't tolerate a cheating husband but will be by a faithful husband's side even though he's going through tough times financially. Hopefully a guy who pursues a foreign woman could see the difference in women on a cultural and an individual level and choose what's right for himself.