Enjoy the Carousing

[IAmZon]

I am celebrating my 1st year Anniversary this week.  It was exactly one year ago, that I was TOTALLY strung out on my first FSU woman.  Although, we had already met, it had been 3 months since we saw each other.  We emailed and talked on the phone enough to raise my expectations to the point ... well that is getting ahead of the story.

I met her in Time Square in the early evening. I was early and I paced up and down the street pretending to look normal.  Then I saw her, and she was BEAUTIFUL. I was overly conscious of walking! I hoped not to stumble...  (this woman was NOT a 10.  She was an 8.5 ... BUT had the sex appeal of of an goddess).

 Funny thing happened to me that night, then next day, the next night, the next day, and the next night. I was not myself ... I was jittery ... I was trying to hard ... I was freaked out. 

This is IMPORTANT: How could such an outcome NOt occur when one is elevating the expectations so?  How much MORE so when a man retains a "marriage agency" and travels 1/2 way round the world?  (This WOW factor deserves greater discussion.  And I suspect it is largely self induced)

I felt myself getting similarly unglued this whole year as I had correspondence and dated other FSU girls.  I am different now.

In retrospect, I was never desperate, or needy!  But, it occurs to me that I was overly desirous to find the perfect outcome.  What good can come of this?

What is wrong with just relaxing, finding compatibility and friendship; not trying to force a 2 year romance in 1 or 2 weeks. Then, and only then, talk about more serious possibilities? 

What is wrong with just enjoying the carousing?

BTW I am not implying being a "player" ... or being unserious.  I am exploring what the proper balance ought be.  The point where one can exercise the best judgement ... clear minded deliberation.

[SANDRO43]

(this woman was NOT a 10.  She was an 8.5 ... BUT had the sex appeal of of an goddess)... I was freaked out. 

Lingering after-effects ?

[Kuna]

Rivardco,

Nice to see my newbie buddy posting again...

Firstly,  interesting choice of words.  I read "carousing" and thought something was wrong so I checked...

ca·rouse     
roused, -rous·ing, noun
–verb (used without object)
1. to engage in a drunken revel: They caroused all night. 
2. to drink deeply and frequently. 


hehehehe....  but I think I know what you mean.

Are you suggesting that a possibility is to go and date, without the pressure of marrying within a certain period of time?

One of the concerns I have with this search is that there seems to be an expectation that one will "succeed" (get married) and all will be good.

Certainly there have been men travel to FSU and married only because they are drunk on love or lust.  They're usually the train wrecks and if I'm certain of one thing it's that I don't want to be one of those.

I've recently met a girl at home that might be equal to a UW (You wouldn't like her because she's blonde  ) but what it reminded me of is that usually I date girls where I live or where I travel, I'm going to UKR and therefore I'll be dating there. At the moment it's really little more than that!

Will I marry a UW eventually?  Maybe, but I'm not desperate to do so.  I want to marry the right girl and now I'll just be meeting some different (but highly appealing) girls.

11 days to go...  but I'm sick of waiting so I think I'll pack and head to the airport.  Surely time couldn't move more slowly than it is now! 

Kuna

[IAmZon]

I like my word choice now AFTER I read the definition.  Thank you.

There is a real point here that is little discussed.

The main thrust of these treads is to FIND.  And clearly, most of the members are earnest, nice guys, looking for the best in a woman.  There are convenient structures that assist in the FINDING.  But there are built in flaws - language, cultural, and geographic limitations.  And these flaws are applied to an apparently simplified and accelerated decision making process to "GET MARRIED" ... sort of like a 16 year old getting a driver's license.

(Can you see that my focus has shifted from Beauty to practicality, JB)

I am as excited about your future TR as you are taking your vacation - well, maybe not THAT much.

BTW, where is Gator?

[Kuna]

I'm missing "The Gator-ator" too...

I think he must still be in the Dominican Republic???  Wasn't he going there for a short break with his lady?

Must have been gone a couple of weeks now...  No posting in here must mean he's having too much fun!  (Like your DR trip Rivardco?)

Kuna

[IAmZon]

Different for Gator - I am sure! He brought his own sand to the beach.  If you know what I mean.

[I/O]

(Can you see that my focus has shifted from Beauty to practicality)

It happens.......eventually.  With some, soon enough, with some, not soon enough, with some never. 

Carousing, browsing, casual observation, call it what you will, is a safe and distant place to stand.  But, there comes the time to make a decision as to whether or not to actually get involved with someone and really discover if there is something you really like and equally importantly, discover if you actually have something other than maybe material benifit to offer this person.  Sooner or later, you have to "Put your foot in the water" if you wish to swim.  I suggest sooner.

One of the concerning things I have noticed on various travels, not limited to the FSU, is there is a demographic of men, particularly British, Australian, New Zealand and American men who seem to think they can cruise into the so-called "Developing" countries and wave a bit of cash or (In their imagination,) style and pick and choose from wherever they like.  Time and again, I have seen them limp home with their tail between their legs or in a worst case, end up with a visa jockey or user.

The "Casualness" with which many approach this, (I am not suggesting it should not be fun) is, in my opinion, not particularly helpful to the entire scene.  Men from the countries mentioned above, (Not limited to these countries, but I speak as I have seen) often have the view that Russian men are all "Drinkers and Losers" and this is simply ridiculous.  However the same group of men are fueling the perception in the east that all men from these countries are "Fat, Lazy and Stupid" and survive only from McDonalds to Burger King. 

Certainly, a relaxed approach is not so bad, but relaxed does not mean being overly casual or flippant.  To each their own, but remember, like it or not, when in another country, you are representing  your own country, not only yourself.

I/O 

[IAmZon]

I/O wrote:"Certainly, a relaxed approach is not so bad, but relaxed does not mean being overly casual or flippant.  To each their own, but remember, like it or not, when in another country, you are representing  your own country, not only yourself."

Yes, certainly a delicate balance.

I too have seen these men you mention.  These are the same guys that eat alone at lunch in school.  Very peculiar generally speaking.  I found myself in a restaurant in a foreign country last month, with several of "these" kinda chaps ... I got up and walked across the street to where the locals were.

But the men here at RWD I think are different (I certainly am).  My problem was, and others here remain, the OPPOSITE I think. (I am recalling Infoman's posts last week)  Putting it on a pedestal?  I may be wrong.

A separate issue, and one that is rarely discussed ... it is the underlying issue here ... is the accelerated choice and relationship with serious intent that seems unique to this particular endeavour.  This is a very private and individual process.  Yet I wonder if it is not possible to develop a better general understanding of this single aspect?

[Son of Clyde]

You are insinuating what parents tell their children "do not settle down right now and play the field" is this right?

Some of the older guys may see the internal time clock saying there is not much time. If you are 35 you may have 40 good years ahead of you. If you are 45 the number drops to 30 and so on.

Speaking for myself (almost 57) there is not a lot of time or money to waste. If you find a good woman (as I did) and you realize it, why wait any longer? Don't forget the age clock is ticking away.

If someone goes into this taking their time it is also good but they must be aware of the inevitable. How many active 75 year olds do you know? My father is almost 80 and his mind is active but he suffers from the recurrance of polio symptoms that get worse with age. My step-father died at 77 from complications of diabetes.

Each decade of life has its own complications. What I am driving at is the time factor. If you can afford going back and forth and only want a companion this is ok for you. If you want a wife and find a good woman and only spend 2 weeks with her there is the option to wait but if the feelings are there why wait?

[I/O]

A separate issue, and one that is rarely discussed ... it is the underlying issue here ... is the accelerated choice and relationship with serious intent that seems unique to this particular endeavour.  This is a very private and individual process.  Yet I wonder if it is not possible to develop a better general understanding of this single aspect?

Understanding the accelarated as in time spent together during the introduction / courtship period?  I will assume yes for the moment.  Tough one for my tiny mind.  All I can relate is how I approached it thus far in order to circumvent, so far as possible the distance and small time together.

Mine and I have simply put enormous effort into communications.  Emails, messenger, sms and so forth.  The time required is almost beyond belief, because we are both prepared to make the time to spend an hour sorting out two or three words one or the other may not understand.  I would hazzard a guess that it could be as much as 3000 hours or more. 

I have eluded to this before, but I think anyone who undervalues the written word in a distance relationship, does so at their peril.  IMHO it is the key to success.  Others of course will debate this.  But to link this to your question, the written dimension of a distance relationship, in my view IS the thing many fail to understand.  It IS an area where so much can be learnt (British English again) and hence reduce the so-called normal/necessary time spent together without compromising the "Knowledge Gain" factor.

This fails to really address the question and I suspect it may require a "Human Interaction" expert to explain this necessary dynamic adequately. 

I/O   

[IAmZon]

Yes I/O, this topic does not seem to gain traction easily.  Perhaps it is so individual that it is not meant to?

I am like you with regard to valuing the written word.  It is possible to read and write to one and have a much better KNOWLEDGE of that person than spending time.  Weird but true - providing the two are honest and interested and skilled in written communication.

Regarding the biological clock thing above ... WOW!  Never thought of it like that.  Maybe that kind of thinking is still years off for me.

But regarding health and fitness I have a question that should excite great debate:  Why get old?

Two years ago, I was 40.  Worse, I felt 40.  Then, I had an inspiration ... they don't come often and they are incredibly valuable things.  I started working out again.  It has been two years now. I am in the best shape of my life.  It is a choice.

[Turboguy]

Rivcardo,   I agree with you that how we take care of ourself can make a big difference in how we feel and how we look.

I do have to say that your comment about learning more about someone in letters than in meeting may or may not be true.   Sometimes it happens.  It happened with VWRW and I.   It is great when it does.  Sometimes it doesn't.   There are often things you don't know until you meet in person.   I had posted before about the gal from Etkatrinburg who I wrote for a long time.  She was very pretty.  She told me in her letters she would devote her life to being a wonderful wife and making me the happiest man in the world.  I liked the things she told me and felt sympathy for her telling me about the husband she had who used to beat her badly and how she had to move and hide to get away from him.  What she did not tell me was that she was an alcoholic herself.

Then there was the girl a long time ago who captured my fancy with her warm and romantic words.  She too painted a picture of a happy life filled with romance and happiness.   She forgot to tell me that she had anger management issues.   I visited her for 3 or 4 days many years ago.  While I was there she spent half her time screaming at her mother or her father.   I got only a few small tastes of her anger personally but if she was yelling at everyone else I am sure if I had married her she would have spent a fair amount of time yelling at me.

I always liked writing and the feeling I was meeting someone I knew but I have to say there were surprises more times than not.

[I/O]

Yes I/O, this topic does not seem to gain traction easily.  Perhaps it is so individual that it is not meant to?

I am like you with regard to valuing the written word.  It is possible to read and write to one and have a much better KNOWLEDGE of that person than spending time.  Weird but true - providing the two are honest and interested and skilled in written communication.

Right on here....!!  But two of us thinking this way does not perhaps make it a universal rule for all.  Nevertheless, I've thought about your question more and another thing appears.  Perhaps those of us who do use the written word extenisvely in a distance relationship are simply subsituting that for actual face to face time and thus not really changing the dynamic greatly but rather changing the method of delivery.  Just a thought.

I/O

[Turboguy]

Sometimes when you are face to face with a beautiful woman the beauty can cloud our thinking and dull our judgement.   In letters I have to say a beautiful photo can to it to an extent, but not the same extent.   When we write we are often talking about our ideas, our dreams our goals.  It can be our inner person talking.  Sometimes it can be good to have our inner person talking to her inner person but some are more comfortable with writing and some find it tiresome.   It is a personal thing that may work better for some than for others.

[IAmZon]

Actually, I am thinking of reversing the normal process.

1, Go, and meet many fast and on the surface - just an introduction. 
2, Then, write and call the keepers.  Get to know them more deeply.
3, Then, go back with higher expectations for a couple of days to check out alcoholism and anger management, etc...
BUT, continue #1, with a new group

... unless lightning strikes, of course.

When there is a connection that is physical, metal, and passes the initial awkwardness, then one might have something.

We will see.

[I/O]

Actually, I am thinking of reversing the normal process.

1, Go, and meet many fast and on the surface - just an introduction. 
2, Then, write and call the keepers.  Get to know them more deeply.
3, Then, go back with higher expectations for a couple of days to check out alcoholism and anger management, etc...
BUT, continue #1, with a new group

... unless lightning strikes, of course.

When there is a connection that is physical, metal, and passes the initial awkwardness, then one might have something.

We will see.

Plans are good, but keep them flexible and be prepared to think on your feet.  I eventually, after much trial and many errors, did a degree of reading and developed a very sound plan.  All was just fine and dandy until I received "That" letter and it kind of blew everything out of the water over time. 

I hope to spend the rest of my life finding out if it has all been as good as it seems.  Yep, I still remain a realist.

I/O

[Turboguy]

That probably would not be a bad approach.   It sure would be better than may of the ones I tried, particularly in the early days.  I think it would be worth trying for you.

[KenC]

Rivardco,
You have a good plan and like I said before, I am impressed with your questions here.  Most of the words written her address the finding part of the equation or the nuts & bolts of visa coordination with little being said about the courtship process.  Most guys seem to either skip that step althogether or at best do a speed courtship.  Time and money to do things properly are usually the reasons for men to make quick decisions (too quick in my mind) about who they want to spend the rest of their lives with.  To be honest, that accelerated schedule scared the hell out of me.

On your first trip, you will be concentrating on the finding part mostly.  If you find a woman (or women) that captures your interest, only then can you really turn on the charm and begin romancing her.  This may or may not happen on the first trip.  I was lucky and my wife was the very first RW I ever met in Russia.  (I guess I know how to pick em )  I did meet others and had a few first dates too.  But when it became apparent that Lena was the one RW that I wanted to know further, I changed gears from the "hunt & seek" mode, to the KenC method of seduction and romance.  I say this because I made a decision while I was there to try and show Lena exactly who I was.  It didn't matter that I was in a strange country with a strange language or unknown customs, I wanted to do things the KenC way.  It is so very important to be yourself and it is the only honest way to do things.  But even in applying your best efforts to be charming and romantic, you have to understand that Rome was not built in a day (or two).  If you can get to the point where Lena and I were (very sincerely interst ed in developing a relationship) at the end of your first trip, consider yourself lucky as hell.

I/O's concept of wooing a woman via the written word or even by phone is valid, but in my opinion this courtship from afar is more realistic after you have met face to face.  I talked with Lena daily for about 45 days prior to my going to meet her.  These were valuable conversations as I would had never went to meet her without them.  But we both did not get into too much in the romantic vein at that time.  We were skeptical about crossing that bridge before meeting.  Now after you meet and spend some time together, it is a whole new ball game!  That is when you can really make some headway on the romancing part.

Your courtship truly begins on your second trip IMO, unless you are lucky to find a gem in the first few days of your first trip, like I did.  That is the trip to look forward to!!!!!!  You will still be up against the time, distance and money issues while you continue to court your lady though.  How much information and time you need in order to make a decision to pull the trigger on a proposal for marriage is your own personal decision.  Unfortunately, most countries require you to be committed to marriage prior to you lady coming to your home country and require you a short time (90 days here) to finalize things.

Some here think that they can choose a woman to marry in the period of a few days, speed court her and file for the visa.  I just could never had done it that way.  It seems too forced and unnatural to my way of thinking.  I choose to bring Lena here on a student visa as opposed to a K-1.  No commitments of marriage from either side.  That enabled us to spend time together and for me to have the proper pressure-less time to court her.  If you notice, there are quite a few members here that have successful marriages that came from a more traditional courtship process.  It is not to say that the whole accelerated program doesn't work, but it was not what I was comfortable in doing. 
KenC

[IAmZon]

Excellent points KenC.  I agree with everything you said. 

There is a funny disorientation that occurred with me - and I have seen with others - who stumble upon the Russian Women dating sites.  It is a combination of things really: excitement; doubt; fear, greed; and they come from the areas of our heart and soul that are very powerful. 

I guess I have overcome that phase.  BTW, I am very happy I did not just hope on a plane three Months ago!  I think there is serious inward preparation that is required.

I am very happy that I took a more studious approach. I have learned tons vicariously through others.  And the time delay help me "get over the jones" .... Ludmilla!; Natalia!; Svetlana!; Tatiana!

Yeah ... I feel very good about moving forward. And, frankly I could not have gotten where I am without RWD and quality PMs from the members.  Thanks

[KenC]

Rivardco,
You are one of the more cerebral members here and I admire your thought process on this pursuit.  You wrote:
"There is a funny disorientation that occurred with me - and I have seen with others - who stumble upon the Russian Women dating sites.  It is a combination of things really: excitement; doubt; fear, greed; and they come from the areas of our heart and soul that are very powerful." 

I don't understand the greed part you speak of.  I think the guys at your stage of the process should use their time to do a lot of self evaluation.  What is important to you in your life?  Who are you?  In looking for a perfect match, you had better understand who that RW is going to match with.  If you don't have a clear understanding of who you are, how in the world can you select a woman to fit well into your life?
KenC

[Jumper]

I've always thought that guys going thru this,,
generally learn more about themselves and what they really want or need in thier lives..than anything else.
 If nothing else is gained , it should make any sane man do quite a bit of seriuos self evaluantion of the important things in his life,and where he is at in it.

In general a guy just wont do that if kept to his routine??
 If this process  gets the average guy up off the couch ,, and into a completely different culture and country..
then he likely has gained quite a bit of self awareness or at least absorbed something of a new culture and new experiences??
Left to his usual routine .nothing would change.

the choice to pursue this, in itself changes him.


the trouble in it is,,
the infatiuation or obession with the "idea" sometimes oveshadows
  everything else.


and YES i think guys very very VERY
often fall far more deeply in love with a photo than they would have in the presense of the real live *intoxicating *woman..
why?
 because they read into her words and into her photo what thier minds would like to see,,
the perfect relationship and perfect person..
They read the email in`10 minutes,
the reality.
but the rest of the day, day dream of all the otherr things she could have meant , or will say,  or what life would be like with her etc..
the fantasy. 
and thats 23 hours and 50 minutes !! a lot of daily fantasy building  time!
its inevitable and he can't often help it.



 face to face time,, doesnt allow for as much * mind fantasy* or built up unreasonable expectation..

its the real person , and  real interaction ,right there ,in real time..
it can be intoxicating, it can cloud his thioughts,, but its real

to say , and earnestly believe, that you can learn more about a person thru letters is a reality for some, especially if they are honest and gifted writers,
 but it is merely a FANTASY for most ih this process!!
and MOST start this process already off on the wrong foot,,
already over fantaticising and romanticising the situation from the  pablum they have fed on at agency web sites..

Also there is the ineviatble,.,
" oft - failed realtionship guy" who thinks -
whoa! now a see the light!
THAT'S it! its NOT me , i always knew it wasn't me!
its these blasted AW..!!!!!!!
RW will cure that.. they will recognize a good man when they see him, and  i was the great guy all along.. 


My thoughts are , if you generally failed miserably at relationships in your own culture..
women from another culture are not likely to be a good cure..

If you have always seemed to have fairly succcessful realtionships,, then you probably always will DESPITE what culture the women a might be from..



anyway- this is a difficult process, if you want to do the balancing act,, ricrado
the best you can hope for is to KEEP things as close to normal dating as is possible in a long distance cross cultural relationship..


you seem to have a decent plan..
and a good head on your shoulders,,
why wouldnt yoiu do fine..??
jump in already.

[IAmZon]

These last two posts are amoung the most clear, correct, and useful I have read on RWD.

KenC:
The greed I referred to was not financial but physical - desire, coveting.

AJ:

Very true.  I will dive in shortly (spring). 

[jb]

As usual, AJ is one of our most clear advocates, his posts always make sense if you can read them carefully.  However, he has suffered  one too many high jumps on that hot rod Honda without a helmet.  Honda "crash dummy" is what I call him.

AJ, you know I love you.

[Jumper]

  LOL jb-

yea i know the typing style is wacked,
if i try and edit it,, i often only make it worse though.

glad you could understand it ricardo!


jb-
BTW i have a new venture with kawasaki at the moment as well
and will be testing most of next month..
(yeap still do the Honda thing too... it's the main paycheck)