I need Advice.

[Mir]

Dear JC

Please understand that no one has brainwashed me. For some reason I have held a fascination for Russia for many years. I have read many Russian writers (in English of course) like Bulgakov,Chekhov,Gogol,Dostoevsky,Pushkin etc.
Also among the women I have dated from FSU 2 were Ukrainian and 3 were Russian and they were all very nice girls. Yes I did enjoy discusing history with them and arguing with them but all in a friendly way and did not get my brain washed.
I do consider myself an amateur historian so I think I know a bit about Russia's problems with its neighbours over the years and while I do accept that history is often distorted I am sure even you will agree that Russia did build an empire and it is a fact that there has never been an empire that has not thrived on exploitation of smaller and weaker nations around it.
Perhaps you would do better by distancing yourself from the wrongs did by Russia's past(and present) rulers rather then trying to defend them. After all the majority of people killed and tortured by Stalin (yes I know he was Georgian but he ruled in the name of Soviet Russia) and my heart goes out to them.

[Turboguy]

There is so much I want to say that I don't think I can do this in one shot.

First Jazzy, my observations have been that most women from Moscow think people from Moscow are better than people from other parts of Russia.  People from anywhere in Russia think they are better than people from Ukraine.  People from Ukraine think they are better than people from Russia.   In my opinion your ideas about RW vs UW are just typical of the way you have been brought up and the people you have been around and you don't need to apologize for it and did nothing wrong on that front.  What you are saying is what most people you have been around also so.   It is just part of being where you are from.

I will clear up what is covered in another thread for you.   Jinx's girl won the green card lottery and come here on that basis not a fiancee or marriage visa.

Everyones view of history is a little changed by where they are.   Go to some Arab countries and what is a terrorist to us is a patriot to them.   I have heard of Russians who did not even know the USA was involved in WWII (the great patriotic war to you).  Most Americans do know the Russians were in WWII but probably most don't know realize fully the struggle and the extent of the war there.

The real truth is probably that Russia put up an amazing fight and showed a courage and determination that is amazing the more I learn the more I think every Russian (and Ukrainian) has a right to be proud of their country's efforts during that war.

Jazzy, another real truth is that saying Russia saved some of those countries is perhaps stretching things a bit.   The world they were saved to and some of the treatment they had were really not something to brag about.   Yes, the Russia that is now is a big improvement over some of the days in your history but some of the 20th century Russia was little better than the Nazis were, particularly during the Stalin era.   Millions of Ukrainians were murdered for no real reason except to exert control over them.  Millions of your own best and smartest people were murdered for no reason except they were capable people who might do good things there.   History was as honest as the Alice in Wonderland book.  People could be great leaders one day in your history and removed from the history books the next.   There was no freedom of information.   Going back to the people Russia saved, perhaps they saved some from extermination camps but they were sentenced to a half century of poverty and servitude.

Part of the reason so many of the men here prefer to persue Ukrainian women is that Ukraine makes travel easier and so makes meeting the women they want easier.   There are also a few here such as jb who thinks the only really good women come from Moscow.   I have met women from both countries and they both have very good women.   Personally I have not met a Moscow woman who I found to be the type of woman I would be interested in but I don't doubt there are many wonderful women in all parts of the FSU.  As for me I now have my second fiancee, my first turned into a bit of a disaster.  Both of my fiancee's have been from Russia.  Just for the record VWRW is my fiancee.  

Every country has faced some prejudice from those in other countries.   At one time the Irish who came to America were consided terrible people, so were the Italians, the polish were said to be dumb as a brick, the blacks low classed, dumb and lazy.   In reality there are wonderful people from all nationalities that have made America a great melting part and the prejudice fades with time.   Now it is good to be Irish or Italian, the Polish are considered to be very bright and the feelings about blacks have made a lot of progress.   There needs to be more but they have come a long way.   I have heard there are places where people look down on Russians I have not seen it personally in the area I live.  Everyone treated my former fiancee like a princess and they were interested in meeting her and learning about her and Russia.   I am sure VWRW will find the same when she arrives here.   I have a feeling if there is bad feelings about Russians in some areas it is to some extent because of some of the behavior they have exhibited but I am only guessing about that.  Personally I find the Russian and Ukrainian people to be wonderful, smart, hard working and among the best in the world.   They also are among the most hospitable in the world.  

Some have said this thread has turned into a big cat fight.  It has been interesting that is for sure.  I am not meaning this as a negative comment about you but without re-reading the whole thread you sort of instigated the fight.   There was a post where someone said they preferred women from the FSU to American women.  You accused them of tearing down American women when he really said no more than he PREFERED RW & UW.   He never tore down American woman.   Most of the people here think women from your part of the world can be wonderful and do prefer them to AW.   Most also think there are good AW as well but like the femininity, the higher importance women from there put on their marriage and family and the intelligence and sophistication of women there.  

We here are very interested in hearing your opinion and getting the ideas about how you think and feel about things.  I think you need to keep in mind that if you attack people you will probably find people attacking you in return.  That is a choice you need to make.   I will post this and re-read to see if there is more that I have to say.

[Mir]

Please read:

Majority of people killed and tortured by Staline were ethnic Russians.....

[Jazzyclassy]

Oh I do   try to understand all of your points and it was actually so silly of  me to try and say anything here I regret ! Greatly

The thing is  time changes the world changes but moral qualities remain the same , just people interpret them as how they want and how is convenient for them

You know in my short life I  never had any helping hand , Uni, work I did it all myself and believe me or not I have never had a chance to win a green card in the lottery! gosh she must be so lucky:P her life is a real miracle, but wait a second , why she needed that green card if she claimed to love her motherland so very much? Opportunities- as  they say , so she actually silently admitted that Ukraine has no opportunity for her -so young and prospective active girl and she is not alone, there are millions of girls like that !and so what , what we observe is that all those not satisfied with their lives girls  in Ukraine come to different countries and when there is a convo about how poor Ukraine is they start strongly defend it , but at the same time living in the other country , That is mean, millions of times mean! and a lie

Why defend if they left this country ?

I just do not blame anybody Ukraine and Russian are in some way the same and I am loyal to any nations and am trying to understand them

I am very impulsive and emotional person so when it seems to you that I attack it is not this, it is my defending myself and do not take it personally . I think I take things much more personally than all of you here! but I am ready to listen what you got to tell me:)

ok am sorry I did not finish about moral qualities, so in Ukraine they seem to fade away for some reason , all of you here remembered Stalin, how Russia was awful towards Ukraine and that russians are nearly nazis and bla bla bla
ok let it be so
Ukraine is free now from Russia but take a look nothing's changed, they are still poor and catch every oportunity to sell themselves in order to live in western city and no matter who it will be next to them old fart or just simply the person whom they do not love but who loves them, I know there are plenty of russians like that -a lot of them, but everytime I read an article about scammers I hear some Kharkov, L'vov, Kiev ,


It is just funny for me when some Ukraine young girl comes up to forum and start bragging about her life about what she achieved, but how she achieved that???? with the help of old spouse of course, why there are rare couples who are the same age? can anyone explain that?

It is such a shame I do achieve things on my own , and more over I am blamed to be arrogant , ignorant and evil , when those girls achieve things with someone's help are angels:) fair enough is not it?!

No matter how poor I could be that would be the last issue for me to consider marriage with old man , I will have to kill my ego inside of me , will have to cry out my tears lying to myself  killing my personality , just to survive , cos  that is how I was brought up I got some limits which is probably bad and not modern right now , that is why people do not like me cos I can not understand them  and got this cordon about some topics , but that is how I am  and I am not ready to change my values just cos some people whom I do not know from some forum are pressing on me and trying so hard to bring me down with their authority

and you know actually am tired of this empty talk

We are all different here with different cultures , different moral values and different thinking , I am honestly trying to understand you , trying to break the ice maybe with time I will manage that:)

[LEGAL]

The  xenophobia and nationalistic ideas are cause and effect of social unprotectability, problems of living conditions,  inward  aggression and of course of poor and fluctuating mind.

Rousing national hatred somebody makes big money just using a stupid wild crowd and immature of young minds. People with their beggarly minds taking up the madness ideas and repeating the "beautifully"  constructed phrases think about their superiority and membership of a "great" minds even not   realizing the sense of ideas.

"Ukraine girl stole my blouse. All Ukrainians are bad. I did not meet a good Ukrainians."  Writing these words we even do not think that we become to be a part of crowd.
Is a phrase "bad nationality" a public opinion or opinion of crowd?
When we haven't our own opinion we use public opinion or opinion of crowd.
There is some truth in words of Napoleon Bonaparte " Public opinion is prostitute"


"Russia wanted to be sisters with Ukraine, why they tried to kill Ukrainians with all famines they made. And the last one in 1933 was just one of the most dreadful things in Ukrainian history". Why do we write these sentences? Is it the historic bitterness and deep mortification? or just a way to defend our wounded pride manipulating with  historical past?

Every nationality, every State has own good and bad past. We should remember a historical past not to remember a fury and a hatred but in order that we may not repeat past mistakes.

I'm not follower of  L. Tolstoy's "philosophy" but I like his words: "State is a fiction and the human  relationships are real"

Two great Humanist - Utopists, God and Thomas More,  watch us how we put sh!t in soul of each other turning inside out History, Policy and our minds trying to  prove who is who and who is better.
What are we doing?

Olga.



  

[prince_alfie]

Indeed, look at the sadness caused by the Bosnian war back in the last decade.

[jinx13]

 Jazzy,

 Ok, lets forget history for a moment, let's talk about here and now. These words you wrote here speak volumes to me

 

when I can  not get visa to visit my boyfriend when I already paid for the tickets but they refused me, when to  Ukraine girl they will give that visa !

 Looking at your posts it looks like there is maybe some jealousy mixed in with your prejudice. Russians are very proud people, and rightly so but I think many of you wish you had the same freedoms that Ukraine is now seeing. Yes my g/f won the green card lottery, very lucky to be sure, and she could never have done it living in Russia. It is said that Ukraine is becoming "Pro Western" but what does that mean? Is it a only a Western idea to let people come and go as they please? Is Democracy an American idea? No, it started a long time ago, our system of government is based on Roman ideas. Rome was a city and empire of immigrants, much like the U.S. of today. Ok sorry, slipping into history again, I can't help it, it's my favorite subject.  

The point is don't let your personal feelings and jealousies cloud your mind and perception of how ALL Ukrainians are. Like Olga said in her quote, there are no bad nations, just bad people.

 Nataly is like you, she is not rich, she would also never marry an old man for a green card, she has too much pride. I know I am speaking for her (she's at work now) but her reasons for coming here are mixed. Yes, in her city (Sumy) there is not many opportunities for a young woman, that is part of the reason she came. The other reason is that she had a fascination for America, she is truly one of those immigrants that believed in the American dream, that anything is possible here. That doesn't mean she doesn't love her motherland, she misses Ukraine very much, and her parents miss her too. She has cried many tears about it, Ukraine will always be her home, but so is America, don't you think it's possible?

 You know I wasn't attacking you at first, I was attacking this attitude that I have heard again and again, I am just tired of it. I can't tell you how many young women from Moscow and St. pete that I have talked with that sound exactly like you. So you are not alone in your thinking, I understand that, but maybe in this forum you will learn to not speak about people with just generalizations. To have this bad feelings about an entire country because of silly things that have happened to you is kind of rediculous don't you think?

 Just so you know, we took a poll here to see the percentage of men with Ukraine, Russian, Belorussian...wives, fiances, and girlfriends.  Russia and Ukraine were split equally. To say men choose Ukraine women because it's an easier path is just wrong in my opinion. To get a Russian visa is not so difficult...I have been to Moscow 3 times, and Kiev only once, so that arguement just doesn't make sense to me. I met plenty of great girls from Moscow, but nothing romantic. I did meet a girl from Volgograd that I was romantic with, but she had many of these qualities that you think Ukrainians have, she was uneducated, and the type that uses men to get what she wants. Do I steroetype and say ALL Russians are this way, or girls from Volgograd are ALL bad? No, I don't, maybe it's because I am older and wiser. You are young, you will learn that these prejudices you have are useless, and more than often they are wrong.

 I guarantee that if and when you come to your boyfriend in his country you will forget your bad feelings about Ukrainians, you will be happy to speak with another girl in Russian, no matter where she is from, you might even make a very good friend. Do you think Nataly cares who is Russian and Ukrainian when she hears her language being spoken here in California? She even met some Armenians in our city and was so excited to speak Russian with them.  Something tells me your attitude will change greatly in the coming years. I hope so.
 

[Jazzyclassy]

I agree relax

I am tired of this already

[Bruno]

  Just so you know, we took a poll here to see the percentage of men with Ukraine, Russian, Belorussian...wives, fiances, and girlfriends.  Russia and Ukraine were split equally. 

Yes, you are right... specially in my case... my first wife was Russian... my actual fiancee ( to be next wife ) is Ukrainian... so, i split equally

 

[SANDRO43]

Is Democracy an American idea? No, it started a long time ago, our system of government is based on Roman ideas. Rome was a city and empire of immigrants, much like the U.S. of today. Ok sorry, slipping into history again, I can't help it, it's my favorite subject

As the name implies (demos, people, kratos, rule), it was a VERY peculiar form of government invented in Athens, that the Romans wisely avoided. They imitated the Greeks in potentially less damaging areas (the Athenians were repeatedly trounced by the thoroughly-undemocratic Spartans) .

[jinx13]

 Right you are Sandro, the Greeks invented Democracy, I should have known that, I was married to a half Greek half Italian woman!

[LEGAL]

First democratic reforms in Athens were connected with Solon - aristocrat, poet and   legislator.
In 594 BC Solon was  made eponymous archon of Attica. It was big mistake of  aristocracy  because Solon said:"I'm not aristocrat; I'm  citizen!" and he immediately carred out the series of audacious  economic,  social and political reforms 

Olga

[SANDRO43]

... slipping into history again, I can't help it, it's my favorite subject.

If you are interested in Roman history, may I suggest the books written by an apparently unlikely, but suprisingly good, amateur scholar : Colleen McCullough, better known as the author of The Thorn Birds (and Australian, to boot ).

[Kuna]

If you are interested in Roman history, may I suggest the books written by an apparently unlikely, but suprisingly good, amateur scholar : Colleen McCullough, better known as the author of The Thorn Birds (and Australian, to boot ).

Bloody Australians!   

[SANDRO43]

Bloody Australians!

She was quite good, actually (what is it with you Ozzies, finally developing a gift for gab ? My congratulations, too, on your outstanding T/R ).

She also wrote a historical fiction on YOUR country's origins (The Gunmaker, IIRC), showing you're just an accidental by-product of the American Revolution .

[Kuna]

She was quite good, actually (what is it with you Ozzies, finally developing a gift for gab ? My congratulations, too, on your outstanding T/R ).

She also wrote a historical fiction on YOUR country's origins (The Gunmaker, IIRC), showing you're just an accidental by-product of the American Revolution .

Ahhhh.. I think the way we normally communicate is different from others around the world.  When I think of an Aussie with the gift of the gab I immediately think of a bush poet sitting around a camp fire somewhere in the outback keeping his friends and family spellbound with romantic tales of the "big brown land".

Thanks for the comment on the TR.  Obviously I thoroughly enjoyed my trip and will now work towards a happy ending.   

   I know this is not the place to post this but... here's some verse from a Modern Day Bush Poet named Rupert McCall...

Green and Gold Malaria

The day would soon arrive when I could not ignore the rash.
I was obviously ill and so I called on Doctor Nash.
This standard consultation would adjudicate my fate.
I walked into his surgery and gave it to him straight:
`Doc, I wonder if you might explain this allergy of mine,
I get these pins and needles running up and down my spine.
From there, across my body, i will suddenly extend
-My neck will feel a shiver and the hairs will stand on end.
And then there is the symptom that only a man can fear
A choking in the throat, and the crying of a tear.'


Well, the Doctor scratched his melon with a rather worried look.
His furrowed brow suggested that the news to come was crook.
'What is it Doc?' I motioned. 'Have I got a rare disease?
I'm man enough to cop it sweet, so give it to me, please.'
'I'm not too sure,' he answered, in a puzzled kind of way.
'You've got some kind of fever, but it's hard for me to say.
When is it that you feel this most peculiar condition?'


I thought for just a moment, then I gave him my position:
'I get it when I'm standing in an Anzac Day parade,
And I get it when the anthem of our native land is played,
And I get it when Meninga makes a Kiwi-crunching run,
And when Border grits his teeth to score a really gutsy ton.
I got it back in '91 when Farr-Jones held the Cup,
And I got it when Japan was stormed by Better Loosen Up.
I get it when Banjo takes me down the Snowy River,
And Matilda sends me waltzing with a billy-boiling shiver.
It hit me hard when Sydney was awarded the Games,
And I get it when I see our farmers fighting for their names.
It flattened me when Bertrand raised the boxing kangaroo,
And when Perkins smashed the record, well, the rashes were true blue.
So tell me, Doc,' I questioned. 'Am I really gonna die?'


He broke into a smile before he looked me in the eye.
As he fumbled with his stethoscope and pushed it out of reach,
He wiped away a tear and then he gave me this stirring speech:
'From the beaches here in Queensland to the sweeping shores of Broome,
On the Harbour banks of Sydney where the waratah's in bloom.
From Uluru at sunset to the Mighty Tasman Sea,
In the Adelaide cathedrals, at the roaring MCG.
From the Great Australian Bight up to the Gulf of Carpentaria,
The medical profession call it "green and gold malaria".
But forget about the text books, son, the truth I shouldn't hide.
The rash that you've contracted here is "good old Aussie pride".
I'm afraid that you were born with it and one thing is for sure -
You'll die with it, young man, because there isn't any cure.
 

Oh, there's a healthy dose of slang in there so if you're scratching your melon PM me and I'll try to explain!