HELP: Any Americans living in Germany with their FSU woman?

[FSUrookie]

Hello,

I am from Chicago and I have met a wonderful woman to be my current fiancee and future wife and she is from Kharkov Ukraine. Our relationship has entered a critical phase. Our original plan was for her to move to the USA, but now because of her mother's strong influence and her younger age (early 20's), and her having some existing family in Germany, she wants to live in Germany. How easy would this be for an American to make the transition from America to Germany? Currently I have a very good job as a technology technician at a chicago-area school district and I know that I probably can not earn anywhere near the money in Germany that I do in the USA. I also sell real estate and have a RE sales licence in my home state of Illinois for additional income. My USA job affords me the opportunity to travel the world and live decently. Our relationship has thus far been excellent and without any major problems and age difference has not been an issue. Of course this was never an issue for us before and was quite a surprise when she hit me with this, but from her most recent letter I gather her mother does not want to lose her little girl, and she is telling her daughter how hard the transition to the American culture is from Ukraine. Most Americans who do make the jump to Europe typically have jobs with companies that have an international presence. Does anyone have any advice or contacts that they can share? I appreciate any help. Also, what are the typical living expenses in Germany? Renting? Food Costs? etc... Thanks for any feedback or suggestions.

[Kuna]

FSUrookie,

I can only give you a little information about Hamburg and it's surrounds but the considerations you'll need to contemplate go much deeper than the questions you've already asked.

Regarding rent...  I was surprised to find rents in Hamburg (Actually Norderstaad which is on the northern outskirts of Hamburg) very inexpensive.  I have an ex-gf from there and from memory she was paying around AUD$800 per month for a very spacious 2 bedroom apartment in a 6 story complex.

Food is very comparable to Australia (and therefore the USA) - as is entertainment. I am not sure about the taxes but I did find clothing to be comparable to Oz at the top end (designer labels) and more affordable than Oz for the mid range fashions (The type of stuff you'll buy in a department store).

I was surprised how low her salary were because she had a VERY senior project management role in an international tech company (to the extent where she would travel through Asia, the USA and Australia three or more times a year) yet she was only earning 60,000 EURO per annum.  For a similar job in Australia she would have been earning about 30% more.

The difficult questions you're going to have to ask yourself surround your ladies ability to tough out the difficult times.  Being in Germany would make you girl's trips home easier but that in itself may not increase your chances of long term success.  Added to that is the fact you've mentioned she is in her early 20's and therefore you might find that she will still be maturing with changing goals and motivations for some time to come yet.

Moving to Germany will mean you'll need to learn German to get a career similar to yours at home (to start with) and if you expect your career to advance you need to understand most Europeans who climb the corporate ladder have multiple languages.

Some will say you should stand your ground and make it Chicago or nothing... Others will advise you to jump over the pond and grab the relationship with both hands.  I can only advise you to think very carefully about this because the changes you're being asked to make will compound the pressure placed on the relationship.


An afterthought... 

How would she feel if you moved to her city?  I think if I had to leave my city to make a relationship work I would rather move to My Girl's hometown in the first instance rather than take the option you're being given.

You say your a technology technician?  What field of expertise?  Hardware break-fix?  Network admin?  If you have Cisco certifications and she lives in a larger city there may be work options for you there. The good thing about technology is that it has a universal language though obviously you would have to learn Russian over time. 

Perhaps you could start a small business with her help to bring some Western Expertise to Russian business.  As you'd know technology is much about problem solving and my limited experience in FSU is that diagnosis is a problem with the technical people I met in Ukraine... They seem to be less process driven when seeking out problems and therefore you might add some value in that area.

I have no idea about settng up a business like this though but it might be one of your options.

All the best,

Kuna

[catzenmouse]

Perhaps ask her about trying it here for a few years and if she still feels the same way then you can look at Germany. It is also a fairly easier flight to Germany from O'Hare if you want to visit during the time here.

FWIW,
 Ken

[Texas_Ag]

How about telling her that her reasons for the two of you living in Germany make a lot of sense, but it would be very hard for you to get a comparable job there, and since you very much want to be a good strong provider for your future family you think it would be best for the two of you to live in America.  But, of course, you will make sure she has the opportunity to see and talk to her family in both countries often even if the location will be further away.

[BillyB]

Our relationship has entered a critical phase. Our original plan was for her to move to the USA, but now because of her mother's strong influence and her younger age (early 20's), and her having some existing family in Germany, she wants to live in Germany.


Also, what are the typical living expenses in Germany? Renting? Food Costs? etc... Thanks for any feedback or suggestions.

I'm sure you told her your reasonings for not moving to Germany as you told us and they are good reasons. To me, a woman that wants to marry you to be closer to other people such as friends, relatives is a red flag because she already chose to search for a foreign man knowingly she will leave close family and friends in Ukraine for a husband who should end up being her closest family and best friend.

If you move to Germany at the moment, your dollar wouldn't convert to your favor. Also you will find it hard to adapt in a new culture compounded by your wife having to adapt to a new culture and you in a new marriage. You will be both lost in the woods struggling but at least she has family in Germany she could run to if things get to stressful in your marriage and life if you are not a worthy provider.

In Germany, unemplyment is high and I know an Iraqi man who has a relative who works for BMW. He said his relative has complained to him that she has worked for BMW longer and performed better work than some German citizens only to watch them get raises and promotions faster than her. Her opinion, maybe fact, maybe not but FSUrookie, you will start at the bottom of the totem pole trying to work your way up during a difficult time trying to be fluent in a new language.

If I was in your situation, I'd tell my gal that I'm going to do what's best for the family and remain a good provider for her in the country I live in. She should respect that.

[groovlstk]

Just my opinion, but if you're both willing to take vows of marriage and she's deciding where to live based on her mom's advice rather than making such fundamental decisions together with YOU, she's either too young or not committed enough.

[BC]

Having lived in Germany for quite some time, I can echo some of the concerns raised upthread.

Besides a good job, logistics, etc, you are still looking at rather complex immigration hurdles to jump.

First you will have to somehow gain permanent residence and permission to work in Germany/EU yourself. Check into contracting work for the US Government and other multinational businesses that will sponsor you (it ain't easy).  Failing that, you could open your own business (bucks, risk and a lot of taxes), or possibly acquire citizenship if i.e. your father or grandfather originally emigrated from select EU countries.

Once you get your feet solidly on the ground, gainfully employed you could sponsor your wife and she could immigrate.  All in all, in the most perfect of circumstances you are looking at a process that could take anywhere from one to two years or more.  During this time it will probably be difficult to maintain your relationship as you will be quite busy yourself. 

Throwing another language and culture into the mix won't make it any easier. 

Not throwing all negatives at you.. If you do manage to get it together Germany isn't a bad a place to live and there are many FSU folks already there.

I wouldn't burn bridges though unless there is another, better one already built - and that will take a LOT of work..

Later, if you two decide to move back to the US, the whole deal starts all over again...

I suggest taking a long, hard look at the motivations involved.  Sounds a bit like she is being fed info from the 'babushka network'.  If that's the case then logic and common sense will rule.. If the topic escalates I'd be a bit worried.

[WmGO]

Just my opinion, but if you're both willing to take vows of marriage and she's deciding where to live based on her mom's advice rather than making such fundamental decisions together with YOU, she's either too young or not committed enough.

I agree with this.

I will add that Rookie is failing to be a leader in this situation.
It is and should always be the man who decides where the family
lives based on his decisions as to job/employment/occupation.

Rookie, you need to take the bull by the horns and be the leader (play the man).

Good luck!

[ScottinCrimea]

It's possible that it is her having the cold feet and is using her mother as the reason.  The mother will still be losing her little girl even if she moves to Germany instead of the US.  While you say the age gap hasn't been a problem, it is a problem that she is so young, irregardless of how old you are.  she doesn't have much life experience so such changes are extremely frightening to her.  She wants to try to make it easier on herself by being somewhere where it is easier to run home if things don't work out and where she has a network to fall back on if you aren't a sufficient provider for her.  While it's normal for any FSUW to have these concerns, they can be worse for a young girls, especially if this will be her first time away from Mom.

As the others have said, you need to be the one to make the decision that is the best for the family and it sounds like that means that she comes to the US.  On a selfish note, imagine if things don't work out and you're stuck in Germany alone with no status there and lesser career prospects.  At least one of you needs to be on familiar ground when you are starting out, so that means either the US or Ukraine.

[Misha]

Hello,

I am from Chicago and I have met a wonderful woman to be my current fiancee and future wife and she is from Kharkov Ukraine. Our relationship has entered a critical phase. Our original plan was for her to move to the USA, but now because of her mother's strong influence and her younger age (early 20's), and her having some existing family in Germany, she wants to live in Germany. .... Of course this was never an issue for us before and was quite a surprise when she hit me with this, but from her most recent letter I gather her mother does not want to lose her little girl, and she is telling her daughter how hard the transition to the American culture is from Ukraine.

And the transition to the German culture will be easy? My wife also has relatives in Germany, but she fortunately does not want to live there. At best, she would like to travel to Germany (which will be a lot easier from Canada than Russia) and have some of her relatives visit us, but she prefers life in Canada.

From what my life described of her frequent travels to Germany, she was considered an outsider and she faced many challenges learning German. It would still have required time to become truly fluent in Germany. Moving to Germany would not have been any easier in terms of culture than moving to Canada or the United States.

Also, at some point distance becomes a moot point. It is one thing when your daughter (or son) lives down the street, it is another thing when they live in another country. There are visa issues and any trip will involve costs and time. It may be a bit more expensive to fly from Chicago than Hamburg, but either way your fiancée is unlikely to simply fly back home for a weekend even if she lives in Germany. I do not know what it is like for a Ukrainian citizen to get a German visa, but my guess is that it won't be any easier for your future mother-in-law to get a German visa than an American visa to visit her daughter.

Also, are you both at the letter writing stage? It seems odd that your fiancée would be announcing this decision in a letter. Both of you should be putting a lot of thought into this. Do you want to be in a situation where your future mother-in-law will be always participating in the decisions that you make as a family? Also, it would make more sense for your fiancée to look for someone already in Germany if that is where she truly wants to live. 

[Ste]

Quick points cos my sweetie is living in Germany at the mo - and did Hamburg for three months...

1. Russians form almost the lowest of the low in Germany, noted for their insularity and little russias everywhere. My love says it's heartbreaking to see. In UK Russian's are still quite cool.

2. Hamburg is nice, she loved it there, altho she went back last week for a visit and wasn't so enamoured. Fischkopfen.

3. You'll get nowhere in Germany without good German. Almost all my German friends omly speak German when they are pissed, ie drunk. Germans are very British u know. German isn't hard if you've tried Russian.

4. Bureaucracy is worse than Russia, can u belve it.

[Lily]

I think that the most important criterion for choosing a place to live, if this choice is available at all, should be the job/employment/occupation, as WmGO said. People cannot have a living if they cannot earn their daily bread. Family or relatives are not going to feed you.

On the attitude of Germans..essentially I agree with Ste. I also lived in Germany when I had my internship in Frankfurt. My impression was, again, your position in German society results directly from your employment. If you produce meaningful valuable service, you are respected. If you don't, then sorry...

Generally German seem to be rather xenophobic, especially to Russians who flew to the country when Germany started to accept the FSU people of jewish and german ethniticy.

[FSUrookie]

Just to clarify.....
Since I haven't spilled my guts about the whole situation to all here, I will clarify a bit....

She is going to move to Germany because her mom has told her she has to, because; they already have family there (mom is going with her to Germany, along with brother and uncle) 2) Her mom has also told her that she wants her daughter by her side. 3) She has told me to this point, Germany IS it.... no discussion.... So if I say no to Germany, we're history as a couple..... So I have a tough decision to make soon.....
And yes, I have been researching jobs in Germany.... I'll know soon which way this is going to go... Thanks to all for the advice.... And yes, the man's decision should be THE decision, unfortunately MOM will have say on that...... Life goes on.....

[Shadow]

I agree with most of the people here that if you let her mom decide where to live, you might as well marry mom and not her. Tell her you are history and see if mom starts to 'turn around'.
Life will go on, no matter how hard the decision might be at the time.

[Mir]

Germany IS it.... no discussion.... So if I say no to Germany, we're history as a couple..... So I have a tough decision to make soon.....

I think it is an easy choice.
If you want to live you life dictated by your MIL then do as she says, if you want to live your life then stand your ground.

[catzenmouse]

Shadow and Mir nailed it. Just think what will be the next thing dictated by mom, and the next, and the next.

You've had a good run of a year or so but unless you put an end to this behavior now (one way or the other) you will be setting the stage for all future decisions to be made in the same manner.

Ken

[BillyB]

My feeling is if you move to Germany to please your fiancee and get married to her, the next time you fall out of grace with the mom, she will have her daughter leave you. Having your life and marriage controlled by mom and watching your every step along the way is no way to live. Add the difficulties of learning a new language, culture and the struggle you will have to become a good provider, divorce is almost certain.

I agree with the others, you must make a stand and your fiancee has to choose you and where you live. She has to have faith in you and get out from under her mom's wing(control).

But if in the end she chooses mom and Germany over a man(you) she commited marriage to, then I feel sorry for any man who may marry her in the future.

[Mir]

Well this no discusions decision really tells a lot about the mental maturity of your GF.
Well what more can one expect from a 19 year old, how much experience do you have of managing the adolescent tantrum girls tend to have from 14-20 and sometimes till 22?
I know it is sexually very exciting to chase a 18-19 year old but to marry her, leave your job and move to a different country where you don't know the language, jeez get a grip on man.

[Misha]

Well this no discusions decision really tells a lot about the mental maturity of your GF.
Well what more can one expect from a 19 year old, how much experience do you have of managing the adolescent tantrum girls tend to have from 14-20 and sometimes till 22?
I know it is sexually very exciting to chase a 18-19 year old but to marry her, leave your job and move to a different country where you don't know the language, jeez get a grip on man.

Mir is right. There is a difference between being 25 or 30 and listening to everything that mom says and doing the same thing at 19. Odds are good that she has never had a job and has not had a chance to make her own choices. She might be quite different in 5 years or 10 years.