Let's talk lexicon

[Journeyman]

I have been trying to find Russian language corollaries for several English words.  I have 2 Russian-English dictionaries (Oxford and  Katzner), yet can't find much that seems to render a clear translation of these words into Russian:

1.  To cuddle
2.  Foreplay
3.  Pillowtalk

At the same time, I haven't noticed much reference to such things in any account of romance involving Russian ladies.  There are plentiful accounts of supernova-style passionate experiences involving Russian ladies, but not too much on the more "tender" side of romance.  While it is usually true that a society's lexicon for any particular matter usually reflects the culture's attitudes and conceptualization thereof, it is hard to believe that these observations can provide an accurate picture of Russians' vocabulary and attitudes towards these things -- things that encompass the more tender and emotionally intimate sides of romance (rather than physical passions).  

Therefore, I thought that I would offer this matter to the group, and invite responses.  The Russian ladies on the board might easily come up with the answers, but the there is no reason why the men here can't offer equally valid insights.  However, I do NOT want this thread to turn into something salacious.  Please, thoughtful responses only.  Thank you.

Journeyman

[Elen]

according to Russian "lexicon" we have not sex a all:?

 

[Journeyman]

Elen,

Thank you.  Yes, I understand that a number of Russian words have been borrowed from other languages during the past 300 years, including "sex" (секс).  As I have read elsewhere about this particular word, there are a range of reasons for this phenomenon.

Of course, there was also the often-cited quote from the Russian lady on the Phil Donohue show many years ago about there being "no sex" in Russia.  That quote has been endlessly debated over the years as to what she actually meant, with broad disagreement even among Russian women.  So, I won't get into that.

Regarding the 3 words in the list above, the closest Russian translation for the English word "to cuddle" was the Russian word "обнимать" or "прижимать к себе".  However, the word "обнимать" is also the English word for "hug", and "hug" and "cuddle" are not interchangeable in English.

The other 2 words seem to have no corollary at all.  On the other hand, I know that there are plenty of words in Russian that cannot be translated into English well, or else have no English corollary either.  This is true for all languages, of course, each having unique utility within its own culture.  None is better or worse.

However, the greater question might be the existence of any correlation between the absence of a word in a language and the cultural perspective on or regard for the thing or action which the word denotes.  Any comments on that with respect to these words?  Are they absent?  Why?  

Journeyman

[Elen]

Why we have not transaltion to foreplay? BTW what's that?

And we sleep at poillows and talk at kitchens so we have "kitchentalks":D

If seriuose then really "talks about sex" is not in Russian traditions Don't know if that makes Russians better or more bad in beds in comparison with other nations but that's so - we prefer to "act" but not to "talk":D

[Journeyman]

Elen,

Thank you for your continuing thoughts on this thread.  You wrote:

Why we have not transaltion to foreplay? BTW what's that?

Yes, I think you know the answer to your question, but let me offer this recollection . . . just in case:

About 20 years ago, I was at a garden party with some good friends.  We were all sitting around enjoying a few drinks when one of my friends, Bob, said to us all that he and another lady had stopped dating each other.  Another guy, Lyle, said, sighing, "Ah.  You just never quite know what will keep a woman happy."  Then the sometimes "unrestrained" Mark offered his ideas on the subject.  While sitting next to his own wife, Mark began to say in a slightly teasing way to Bob, "Bob, you just have to remember to do some simple things.  Just hold her hand, stroke her arm gentley, tenderly kiss her on the neck, maybe a few times, hold her a little closer to you, and after a while maybe softly place you hand just above her knee, and then take it from there."  Upon hearing this, and looking shocked, Mark's wife stood up, turned to Mark, and with fire in her eyes, shouted, "Damn it!  So, you DO know what foreplay is ! ! ! ! !;)  I think Mark had to sleep in a chair for the next few nights.  

I hope that wasn't too salacious, in violation of my own entreaty.  The point is, Elen, that this is a BIG issue among American women (usually).  And, therefore, AM also (sometimes:P).

And we sleep at poillows and talk at kitchens so we have "kitchentalks"

I seem to have noticed an elevated degree of "compartmentalization" in various aspects of life in Russia, at least compared with America.  Some of it is quite understandable considering the proprieties that must be habitually observed in the usual home in the FSU.  Elen, generally the word "pillowtalk" embodies the notion of verbal intimacy (more romantic than sexual), which as you indicate (below), might not be as much a part of Russian tradition as in the west.

If seriuose then really "talks about sex" is not in Russian traditions Don't know if that makes Russians better or more bad in beds in comparison with other nations but that's so - we prefer to "act" but not to "talk"

Yes, I have noticed this too.  And, Elen, I don't think that it is better or worse.  They key is for a couple to have a necessary degree of communication, mutual understanding, and agreement -- in whatever way that can be obtained.  Much can be communicated without words, but it is a different way of communicating.  That is one of the very biggest challenges for RW-WM relationships.  That is, finding good ways to communicate adequately.

Many Russian people (men and women), have also told me about the tradition you cite -- to not talk about certain things.  Not only the topic of sex, but also the topics of the status/health of a relationship, how to improve a relationship or marriage, some things that occured in the past, and almost anything about the future.  But, otherwise, it seems that Russians love to talk. :D;)

Actually, Elen, I think that most WM are quite happy that Russians are inclined to "act."  I have, however, observed a number of comments from WM to the effect that they were sometimes a bit surprised to find a RW so inclined, since they might otherwise normally expect first a bit more cuddling, or pillowtalk, or foreplay.  Not all WM, but many.  But let me add, they were usually pleasantly surprised. :cool:

Journeyman

[mischief]

1. To cuddle
2. Foreplay
3. Pillowtalk

 

1. прижиматься (к кому-либо) or обниматься

In Russian the difference between cuddle and hug (which will be прижимать or обнимать)  is the ending  "ся"... in this instance "ся" indicates in Russian that you are doing that several times... if you do it once it'll be hug  = прижимать or обнимать, if you keep doing it for a period of time it becomes a cuddle = прижиматься (к кому-либо) or обниматься.

Hope, it makes sense to you...

2. предварительные ласки, прелюдия

We use  "прелюдия" often, but it's more literary word... a lot of guys would use an expression " to warm her up" = разогреть ее

3. We don't have an equivalent for this expression in Russian, besides I think that popularization of this word in the US comes from the movie.

Here is pretty good online dictionary: http://lingvo.yandex.ru

[Elen]

I hope that wasn't too salacious, in violation of my own entreaty. 

Now, it was not. Though I hoped there 'd be a сontinuation - what's there after a knee:cool:,??? but a story was interuppted at most interesting place:?

The point is, Elen, that this is a BIG issue among American women (usually). And, therefore, AM also (sometimes:P).

Can't say for sure what's those topic Russian guys discussing in males' companies (excepts cars) but I can't recall I heard too many talks about sex among girls at all- no discussions, no bragging, no even complaints ( the favorite Russian issue) May be I was in "non-right" females' companies.

And as for me personal then I have just almost mute and deaf to my  "muttering" husband so certainly there is no "pillowtalks" here:D (but that his "skill" helps him to survive in marriage with me)

And besides "cuddling" and "foreplay" are not "talks" but actions with which Russian do familiar They are just  included in conception "to make love" (in contrary to "to get laid")

 

But, otherwise, it seems that Russians love to talk. :D;)

But Russian women do know If Russian man starts to "talk" there no hope at sex at all:P:D
 

[Journeyman]

Mischief,

Thank you for the detailed explanation.  Yes, it was perfectly clear, and very helpful. Спасибо!

Elen,

Thank you for the additional perspective.  Regarding the story, my apologies for stopping too soon.  Such a terrible sin . . .  but it is sometimes a good idea to leave a woman wanting more.

Ой, это было определенно также сальный.

Journeyman

[Elen]

Ой, это было определенно также сальный

Падежи у Вас не вяжутся, сэр:P

(and meaning of word сальный - is not very good. Mostly it's used in combination сальные шутки and means a joke(mostly "males' " jokes) about sex with VERY bad taste. Your post was far from that stage when it could be named сальные)

[Albert]

Regarding FSU women talking about sex.  I talked about various aspects of sex with all of the FSU women I have been intimate with.  They mostly told me that it was the first time that any man talked about it with them.  But they were quite happy to talk about it.  Especially since it usually lead to increased or more frequent pleasure for themselves.  After my initial talking about sex, it was the women who more frequently brought up the subject in the future.

There was quite a difference among the women as to their talking about sex with other women.  Some of them said it was a frequent topic with other women and got very specific about various techniques, etc., and some said it was a rather rare occurrence and non specific when discussed.

On my most recent trip I was told that shaving of pubic area was a very big topic among the women as they shared comments and info regarding how much to shave, what shapes to leave unshaven, etc.  Much in vogue now is complete shaving, although I can't say that I like it that much myself.

[Albert]

Elen, you asked "what's after the knee?"

Sergei and Natasha were married in St. Petersburg.

They were driving to Tver for their honeymoon.  (don't ask why they chose Tver!!)

They had never before had sex with each other or anyone (don't ask why).

As their car was nearing Tver, Sergei put his hand on Natasha's leg just above the knee.

Natasha said, "Oh Sergei . . . . you can go farther than that."

So Sergei drove all the way to Moscow.