Child in England.

[Shadow]

Guidelines are guidelines. There are two ways to arrange it. Either by friendly agreement between the parents (seldom) or by a ruling of the judge. The judge will weigh the place where the children are living, and the history and situation of the parents. If the children are living in Russia, a Canadian judge might not rule the same amount for support.

[Misha]

Guidelines are guidelines. There are two ways to arrange it. Either by friendly agreement between the parents (seldom) or by a ruling of the judge. The judge will weigh the place where the children are living, and the history and situation of the parents. If the children are living in Russia, a Canadian judge might not rule the same amount for support.

True, but if the agreed upon amount varies too much from the guidelines, the judge will be that much more likely to throw out any agreement reached by the two parties.

[jb]

I think many have lost sight of the OP,,, that is; of a man who has strung you all along with bits and pieces of a story which will probably not come to a happy end under the best of cases.

First of all,  he tells a sketchy story of a RW who wants to improve her maternal rights by having her child in the UK,,, (while living in the USA), which I think is a really dumb idea.  Only later to reveal that this idea was in response to him springing a pre-nup on her.   He just keeps feeding you enough vital info so that he can say; "You just don't understand", if he doesn't hear what he wants to hear.    This individual is not seeking advice, he is seeking approval for his own screwy ideas.

Don't you realize when you are being manipulated, and not even very cleverly at that.  These threads are to be avoided at all costs.  You are not dealing with someone playing with a full deck of 52 when you respond to crazy threads like these.  HiTech has used you for his own self-gratification, he doesn't really care about the RW he says inspired this thread, he'll try to dump her the next time she balks at one of his stupid ideas.  And as long as the cheerleaders support his crap he will feel justified in asking the impossible from his future RW lady friends.

This guy doesn't deserve a wife, he needs a blow up doll to dictate his crap to.

[pk-uk]

True, but if the agreed upon amount varies too much from the guidelines, the judge will be that much more likely to throw out any agreement reached by the two parties.

In the UK, the Family Law Courts prefer ex-couples to come to an agreement rather than a judge have to make a decision (Judges prefer not to make decisions as they know they will be p***ing at least one person off).

When it comes to child support we have a Government Agency the CSA who will get involved - 15% net one child, 20% net two, 25% net three or more.  Not sure how it gets divvied up if the parent who gets the money has children by more than one partner, but never mind.

Nevertheless, parents can come to an agreement and either do it informally or formally.  Formally means getting a judge to rubber-stamp it.  A judge in the England or Wales (Scotland & Ireland have their own systems & I'm not sure how it works there) cannot make an order for child support unless agreed between the parents, outside the juridisction of the CSA (covers English/Welsh children living abroad), the maintenance order is against the person with care (children can take their parents to court for maintenance in some circumstances  ), or it is very exceptional circumstances - usually in the case of a disabled child or if there are special educational needs.  However in the case of the latter any order must be solely for the purpose of meeting needs for the circumstance.

Fantastic you might say.  But true to form our government seems to have bowed to judicial pressure - the intention was to take away the power of judges to make general maintenance orders - and changed original legislation so that if a judge rubber stamps an order, he can vary it however he likes if asked to (subject to a couple of conditions) 

The absolute danger is that solicitors never seem to advise their clients of this danger.  Why? I do not know.  Maybe the quality of Family Law Solicitors is c**p.  The result.  The absent parent can be taken to the cleaners by the judge and be worse of than going through the CSA or having a verbal agreement.

Just thought I'd throw this in.

PK

Oh, question.  One might suggest that solicitors who don't advice clients of the danger above because they can make loads-a-money sending letters whilst the two people argue it out.   In such cases, would the solictor be considered a scammer

Thought I'd throw that in, too   

[jb]

Wonderful....  What has this to do with a USC man, and a FSU woman, having a baby in the UK?   Please return to the topic at hand.   

[catzenmouse]

In Canada, there are federal and provincial guidelines at to how much child support should be paid. You can even look it up online: http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/sup/lookup/index.asp. Someone living in Ontario earning $50,000 per year would pay, for example, $462 per month. The more that is earned, the more you pay.

The wild card is always the judge. When I split up with my ex (a Canadian girl) I left everything to her and moved to a different town (a couple of hours away) to start over. She cleaned out all our accounts and safe deposit box then put them in her sisters name. Before the judge she showed an empty bank account, cried some wonderful tears and was awarded support in an amount that was more than I was earning each month. It had NOTHING to do with anything fair or how much I could afford.

Never underestimate the power of of the bush. (An LP reference)

Ken

[catzenmouse]

Sorry JB, this topic has drifted far from the original intent. Perhaps a good thing.

[William3rd]

JB- Blow up dolls are sooooo 80's. HiTech is actaully pretty lowtech.

Gel fill are the rage!!!

[ISORW]

This has to be one of the most misinformed statements I have read yet.  Anyone who has been on this board for any amount of time has heard many many people talk about how the easy part is getting engaged and how then the real work begins - things such as the visa process, her adjusting to a new live, etc.  These are the real big hurdles in the whole process and I think this was what HiTech was referrring to.

I found it interesting to read Turbo's post about vwrw's comments because my wife said basically the same thing.  So it appears that two RW who are already married are basically agreeing that it would make sense for HiTech's fiance to at least think about these things.  Go ahead and say I'm under my wife's thumb same as Turbo.  You might want to try it sometime.  It's not such a bad place.

That is not what I meant by my post.  I think there are other hurdles that HiTech is referering to.  Getting the woman over via visa process is pretty straightforward and easy.  It does not sound to me that is what HiTech is referring to...it sounds to me like he is talking about hurdles to overcome before they ever get married...and he is free to correct me if I misunderstand.  But his post about "big hurdles to overcome" sound a bit melodramatic considering that others have overcome these hurdles as well, and just prior to that post he talks about getting things on solid ground before the marriage...again, WHY IS HE ENGAGED IF THINGS ARE NOT ON SOLID GROUNDS ALREADY?!?!? I don't think I'm wrong in this interpretation Scott.

Let's not forget something...according to HiTech in another TR I've seen he met his fiancee after receving a couple of letters from his fiancee's agency that turns out was not written by her and she did not know who he was.  So...he meets her and asks her hand in marriage after 1 week and some skyping...sounds a LOT like the one week Romeo's that you guys tear apart a lot yet somehow HiTech is regarded diffeently...sounds like double standards here to me or somehow his charm (lol) has blinded some of you to the realities of this situation, from what limited information he is willing to share - I suspect he is too embarrassed to let out the whole story and be completely ridiculed.

FWIW my FSU g/f thinks the opposite - I've told her about this thread, she's lurked and read a bit, and she does not think very highly of HiTech's fiancee.

[ScottinCrimea]

That is not what I meant by my post.  I think there are other hurdles that HiTech is referering to.    It does not sound to me that is what HiTech is referring to...it sounds to me like he is talking about hurdles to overcome before they ever get married...and he is free to correct me if I misunderstand.
FWIW my FSU g/f thinks the opposite - I've told her about this thread, she's lurked and read a bit, and she does not think very highly of HiTech's fiancee.

I added the bolding.  (Is that a word?) Maybe if you are not sure you should ask him to clarify BEFORE passing judgement, not to correct you after you have.

"Getting the woman over via visa process is pretty straightforward and easy."  This quote shows that you have not yet gone through this process.  Your screenname and that you refer to a gf, not a wife, seems to confirm this.  Is there anyone on this board who has actually gone through the process who would agree with this statement that the process is "straightforward and easy"?

We know nothing about your gf so it's difficult to know if her opinion has merit.  Has she ever been engaged to an American?  Has she ever faced the real prospect of moving to another country?  Does she have children? What is her financial situation?  All of these questions are relevant as to whether or not to think her opinions override those who have met some of these qualifications.

[ISORW]

I added the bolding.  (Is that a word?) Maybe if you are not sure you should ask him to clarify BEFORE passing judgement, not to correct you after you have.

"Getting the woman over via visa process is pretty straightforward and easy."  This quote shows that you have not yet gone through this process.  Your screenname and that you refer to a gf, not a wife, seems to confirm this.  Is there anyone on this board who has actually gone through the process who would agree with this statement that the process is "straightforward and easy"?

We know nothing about your gf so it's difficult to know if her opinion has merit.  Has she ever been engaged to an American?  Has she ever faced the real prospect of moving to another country?  Does she have children? What is her financial situation?  All of these questions are relevant as to whether or not to think her opinions override those who have met some of these qualifications.

Uh yes Scott I've done the visa process and so have several guys I know personally.  You do not need to be a rocket scientist to complete them, as long as you're not married, make enough money, and can wait the 6-7 months it IS straightforward.  I found it pretty damn easy, the hard part was the wait.  So please take your foot out of your mouth, it looks awful ungainly stuck in there.

Yes my g/f is facing the real prospect of moving to America to be with me.  As far as children, why is that relevant?  VRVW does not have children and neither does it seem that HiTech's fiancee have children either.  I'm only checking in on this thread periodically but if I remember correctly neither of the women who support HiTech's fiancee have children.  Are you saying my g/f has to be a mother right now to have a vaild opinion?  If so then VRVW's opinion diminishes too.  Unlike HiTech, I have not become enagaged after 1 week with my g/f.  We know that a proposal may be in the works but I wait until we've both built a solid understanding and commitment to each other, not 1 week of lust.  A proposal *may* come in my next visit, or the one after that...but it did not come upon commencement of my first 2 weeks with her.  And at least my first 2 weeks were ONLY with her...if I remember correctly, HiTech's TR indicates he went to visit several women so not 100% of his time was even spent with her...I spent 12 hours a day with my g/f the first week and we were together 24 hours a day the second week.  We talk several hours a day too but my g/f is fluent in English but I wonder if HiTech's fiancee is or not?  If it's not then my communication is on a different level altogether and I'm still NOT engaged to my g/f despite the fact that we love each other.  We both know it's not a decision to made lightly.  And yes, my g/f wants children but does not have any.  So it seems like she has a couple of things in common already with hiTech's fiancee.

[catzenmouse]

So...he meets her and asks her hand in marriage after 1 week and some skyping...sounds a LOT like the one week Romeo's that you guys tear apart a lot yet somehow HiTech is regarded diffeently...sounds like double standards here to me or somehow his charm (lol) has blinded some of you to the realities of this situation, from what limited information he is willing to share - I suspect he is too embarrassed to let out the whole story and be completely ridiculed.

If you believe that HiTech is getting a free ride here then you have not been paying attention very well.

I personally feel that he's been sliced, diced, and ripped enough already. If the information he has been getting (along with the thrashing) does not help then I'm afraid he's gonna be in a world of hurt eventually.

None of us here share our whole world with the board so just because something sounds like a train wreck or like the perfect relationship does not always make it so. We take what we have and make our comments accordingly. If they are on or off target is up to the recipient to judge.

FWIW,
 Ken

[ScottinCrimea]

Uh yes Scott I've done the visa process and so have several guys I know personally.  You do not need to be a rocket scientist to complete them, as long as you're not married, make enough money, and can wait the 6-7 months it IS straightforward.  I found it pretty damn easy, the hard part was the wait.  So please take your foot out of your mouth, it looks awful ungainly stuck in there.

Yes my g/f is facing the real prospect of moving to America to be with me.  As far as children, why is that relevant?  VRVW does not have children and neither does it seem that HiTech's fiancee have children either.  I'm only checking in on this thread periodically but if I remember correctly neither of the women who support HiTech's fiancee have children.  Are you saying my g/f has to be a mother right now to have a vaild opinion?  If so then VRVW's opinion diminishes too.  Unlike HiTech, I have not become enagaged after 1 week with my g/f.  We know that a proposal may be in the works but I wait until we've both built a solid understanding and commitment to each other, not 1 week of lust.  A proposal *may* come in my next visit, or the one after that...but it did not come upon commencement of my first 2 weeks with her.  And at least my first 2 weeks were ONLY with her...if I remember correctly, HiTech's TR indicates he went to visit several women so not 100% of his time was even spent with her...I spent 12 hours a day with my g/f the first week and we were together 24 hours a day the second week.  We talk several hours a day too but my g/f is fluent in English but I wonder if HiTech's fiancee is or not?  If it's not then my communication is on a different level altogether and I'm still NOT engaged to my g/f despite the fact that we love each other.  We both know it's not a decision to made lightly.  And yes, my g/f wants children but does not have any.  So it seems like she has a couple of things in common already with hiTech's fiancee.

Okay, I have the time, so I'm going to break this down a bit...

You say you have a gf in Odessa, but you create a screenname that says "In search of RW"  Still looking?

You've done the visa process before, which means that at some point after the engagement/marriage, something went wrong, so you haven't yet succeeded at this.  Yet you say "Aren't most of the big hurdles supposed to be overcome *before* you ask her to marry you?"  It seems that you faced some hurdles that you couldn't overcome AFTER your engagement.  It looks like HiTech is maybe doing a better job of dealing with some issues than you did.  It seems that the only time you open your mouth is to change feet.

You say, "Yes my g/f is facing the real prospect of moving to America to be with me" but then later you state, "We know that a proposal may be in the works but I wait until we've both built a solid understanding and commitment to each other, not 1 week of lust.  A proposal *may* come in my next visit, or the one after that..."  So all your gf is really facing at this point is the possibility that you "may" propose to her.  There's a huge difference.

If I read things correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong) you have made one visit to your gf for two weeks and are planning a second visit this month.  Already you are talking about proposals and your gf moving to America and you note how you both love each other.  And you think HiTech is moving too quickly when if you don't really take the time to review the facts of his relationship and keep getting it wrong?

If you had bothered to actually read my post you would have seen that the second woman I quoted in addition to vwrw was my wife and she does inded have children.  This shows again that you don't seem to learn the facts before jumping in.

In a previous post you asked a question about Ukraine customs that would be well known to anyone who has done much traveling there at all, which makes me wonder how many times you have been there, especially since you have already done one visa and are now working on a second.

If you think HiTech has had it easy, you haven't been paying attention.  At least he is open to throwing some things out wanting to learn, knowing there will be some backlash.  I don't see you willing to do that.

So far you have been on this forum less than a month.  You didn't provide an intro, you don't reveal your age, your experience or much of anything about yourself and you show a propensity for jumping into an issue without checking up on facts first.  Sorry, guy, but until you establish some better credentials, you won't be taken seriously.

[Mir]

And the "you write it" up yourself further leads me astray.  If you have to write the damned thing yourself, instead of hiring the necessary two attorneys to get something that has a snowball's chance of standing up in a divorce court, well, IMO you probably don't have enough assets worth protecting to warrant getting a pre-nup.   It seems to me you have injected a measure of distrust into the relationship yourself by asking for something that you seem to know so little about.   The bottom line here is that this woman no longer trusts you.

I'm not raising red flags, I just want a good seat in the viewing stands to observe the oncoming train wreck.

You state you are a year away from doing anything irreversible, I predict you will not marry this woman, and I further predict it will be she, not you, who calls a halt to the proceedings.   I rarely write "I told you so" posts when things go south for a relationship, but in your case I think I'll make an exception.  And will do so with great relish.

How can any one help you when you are just being stupid?  Grow up,,, and then join us.  You are out of your league now.

HiTech: I hadn't looked at this thread at all until today and having read through it, I cannot imagine why you started it. I cannot imagine how such a conversation developed between you and this lady. I cannot imagine how she would be thinking to suggest some method of strengthening her parental rights in the event of failure. I cannot imagine how any conversation would continue between two consenting people once it got to that stage.

What I can observe from this distance is that JB for once is wrong, there is no upcoming train wreck. The train wreck has long since happened and the two of you are merely wondering around blind in the dust created by the smash waiting for something or someone to rescue you. That someone certainly won't be each other.

Some earlier posts in this thread directed at HiTech.
And someone thinks that he is being let of easily? I wonder what is considered hard time?

[Mir]

Oh so that is what ISORW means, I thought it stood for 'I am in Sorrow'
Anyway, I guess a two week wonder does feel himself superior to a one week wonder

[ISORW]

Oh so that is what ISORW means, I thought it stood for 'I am in Sorrow'
Anyway, I guess a two week wonder does feel himself superior to a one week wonder

You seem pretty myopic there Mir...seeing as how I am not engaged, I don't see how I am a 2 week wonder.  Seeing as how HiTech *is* engaged, he *is* a 1 week wonder.

And seeing as how there are red flags all over the place for his relationship...whereas my g/f is not asking about custody of any possible children,  nor accepting flowers for a *rental* fee...

[ISORW]

So Scott, VRVW does not count then?  As I said before, I come here from time to time so I thought it was VRVW and Serebro who were in support of this.

As far as engagement, are you going to tell me you did NOT think about it for a while as a possibility before actually proposing???  Did you and your wife not know that it was probably going to happen since things were going well?  We are at that point but it has come after more than just a visit and some skyping as HiTech has.  And, having been to Ukraine several times already, I also know people who directly have seen HiTech's situation and I will say, the supporters here are pretty much off base that I think you guys cannot see a train wreck even as it is about to hit you.  I won't say anymore because it's not my place to reveal confidences here.

As far as the question about customs, you are just as guilty then of not reading.  I have not flown into Odessa before, I've always flown into Kiev where they do not give you any hassles about your luggage.  I have been to Ukraine several times already.  I am not in the planning stages for a trip, I am there right now.  I also have in hand tickets for another visit.

As far as my previous relationship, it certainly wasn't the train wreck I see coming.  It was a question of 2 people who took a lot of time to know each other, and after several years of marriage, an ongoing education for the wife, that we found ourselves grown apart.  It certainly wasn't from not doing our homework ahead of time.

[Mir]

You seem pretty myopic there Mir

That is true, I am -6 in both eyes

[Serebro]

So Scott, VRVW does not count then?  As I said before, I come here from time to time so I thought it was VRVW and Serebro who were in support of this.

In fact, I can't say that I think that HiTech situation is normal, I meant that if that's what he wants and it makes him happy...why not...his profile says he is 47 yo and he wants to have a good family, if the girl makes him happy...we have already told him about our attitude and our seeing red flags everywhere, if he still thinks that she is an example of a good mother and a good wife... what can we do here?!

[Turboguy]

VWRW is still asleep so I will post the best answer I can for her and she can change anything or add anything later.

If it were normal we would be getting that question or one like it every week would we not.   I think a number of the ladies have agreed with VWRW that there are a lot of television shows that sensationalize FSU women loosing their children and their rights to see their children in foreign marriages.   To me, that means it is not abnormal either.  Many women believe what they see on TV.  Many men do as well. 

Humm,  One week wonder vs two week wonder.  Gosh,  I would be about a two and a half week wonder I guess.  Personally I think there are one week wonders and two week wonders who have a lot more knowledge and feel for who they are planning to marry than others.   I have now spent close to 6 months with VWRW, mostly on a 24 hour a day basis or close to it and I would guess that I knew 75-80% of what I know now after the first week and 90-95% after week two.   I do think there are people who get engaged in a week to someone who is a total mystery to them and their chances of success are not all that great.  I am adding that because I don't want to promote one week wonder behavior.

[Shadow]

With any of the discussions on internet forums all we can do is give our opinion on what we see. It is up to the people to judge if they take it or not. We can have doubts at many things, but if people are determined to make it work, it probably will.

[jb]

Scott,

I have personally known ISORW since Moscow, about 6-7 years ago when he was with his first wife.  Trust me, he has been around the block a time or two and has seen the circus.  He is not some rank newbie running off at the mouth.  If he says he knows something, take it at face value.

[pk-uk]

As far as the question about customs, you are just as guilty then of not reading.  I have not flown into Odessa before, I've always flown into Kiev ........

I'm not sure that you posted that you had always flown into Kiev before, had you?  On the other hand, it does surprise me how some people on this board come to conclusions when actually they know so little.  Then, of course, they and others get aggressive and/or insulting in their writing and questioning 

Thought your posts re hi-tech very rational in general ISORW.

PK

[ScottinCrimea]

ISORW,  if jb is vouching for you I'm a little more willing to give you some credence.  Also, it wasn't so hard to cough up a bit more personal information was it?

So Scott, VRVW does not count then?  As I said before, I come here from time to time so I thought it was VRVW and Serebro who were in support of this.

Here's my quote that you failed to read, "I found it interesting to read Turbo's post about vwrw's comments because my wife said basically the same thing".  And no, I am not married to Serebro.  If you only come here from time to time but feel the strong urge to comment, please check the facts first.  Thinking something doesn't make it so..

As far as engagement, are you going to tell me you did NOT think about it for a while as a possibility before actually proposing???  Did you and your wife not know that it was probably going to happen since things were going well?  We are at that point but it has come after more than just a visit and some skyping as HiTech has.  And, having been to Ukraine several times already, I also know people who directly have seen HiTech's situation and I will say, the supporters here are pretty much off base that I think you guys cannot see a train wreck even as it is about to hit you.  I won't say anymore because it's not my place to reveal confidences here.

Of course I thought about engagement before I actually proposed.  It's easy to think about it when things are going well, but what about when things are not going so well?  Have you hit that point yet?  I communicated with my wife for over a year before going to see her.  I visited 5 times over the next year and then moved to Ukraine and lived with her for over a year before we got married.  So maybe you can call me a three year wonder.  We both took this step very seriously and it was important to us to know how we each would respond not only when things were going well but when things were tough.  You just can't learn that with a couple of trips and a lot of phone calls.  Anytime I have a complaint about my wife, she says, "You knew exactly what you were getting into when you married me", and she is right.

I also know a bit more about HiTech's situation than is known by most here.  Sure I see some red flags but I also know other information that makes these less so.  If I had posted during the time that I was getting to know my wife, people would have been pointing out red flags everywhere and also predicting with 100% surety that I was heading for a train wreck.  The flags that people are seeing with HiTech pale in comparison.  I'm sure if you were forthcoming about your relationship, many here could identify some red flags that you are choosing to overlook. But over time, I found that in every case there was a logical reason for what at first appeared to be a red flag.  I didn't throw away the relationship over a flag or two but took the time to learn the truth.  I'm not saying that I am sure HiTech's relationship will succeed.  No one can.  I do advocate, however, taking the time to sort through any questions that arise, on both sides.  It just makes sense.

As far as the question about customs, you are just as guilty then of not reading.  I have not flown into Odessa before, I've always flown into Kiev where they do not give you any hassles about your luggage.  I have been to Ukraine several times already.  I am not in the planning stages for a trip, I am there right now.  I also have in hand tickets for another visit.

What am I guilty of not reading?  Where did you ever write where you had flown to and how often?  Did I miss a long post of yours somewhere?  Please enlighten me.  Still, I'm not sure how you would think that customs rules in Odessa are so much different than those in Kiev.  Here's what you wrote, "I will be flying into Odessa in 10 days...isn't there an allowance for gifts like $100 or $200 that you would not get taxed on?"  This sounds like a general question on Ukraine customs rules.  Haven't you brought gifts to Ukraine before?  How many times is "several times"?

As far as my previous relationship, it certainly wasn't the train wreck I see coming.  It was a question of 2 people who took a lot of time to know each other, and after several years of marriage, an ongoing education for the wife, that we found ourselves grown apart.  It certainly wasn't from not doing our homework ahead of time.

Many don't see the train wreck coming for themselves.  Perhaps at the time someone else might have been able to point it out for you and it may have been correct or not. How much time did you get to know each other before you proposed?  Before you married?  Noting you paid for her education, how young was she when you married?  Having experienced that once, why on earth would you be wanting to move so quickly to the "love" and "thinking about marriage" stage this time?

I'm not looking to bust your chops, I just think that you are jumping on HiTech while making many of the same 'mistakes" and not taking the time to study the facts first.  I hope you both succeed and can only wish that you both have the happiness that I have found.  As I do with HiTech, I'm happy to not only point out concerns I have, but to also help you to understand the other side and how some red flags can have a logical explanation.