Diplomacy

[Shadow]

Diplomacy should prevail. When you feel there is an attack, there is Dan and a number of helpers who can stop them. Just think of how many of the non-diplomatic exchanges survived.
Now if someone manages to attack your wife or marriage in a diplomatic way, that is going to be a real tricky one...

[catzenmouse]

I don't think we need to avoid confrontation to be diplomatic in our responses. If someone goes too far then we need to use the "Report to Moderator" button and continue to stay on the high road.

Aside from a few folks who either decide they don't want to see the truth of a situation or do not have the ability to see the truth the membership can easily tell when someone is out of line and especially so if they continue to stay in that mode.

As far as breaking points are concerned we do have our point of no return and I think that Dan is quite fair in how he handles these situations and will take a harder position with the instigator so if we do lash out it is only natural to expect that it will be removed along with the nonsense from the other side.

FWIW,
 Ken

At what cost do we continue to be diplomatic? 

Turbo (the most diplomatic and nicest guy here) got me thinking.

Do we avoid any potential confrontation for the sake of diplomacy?  Do we ignore faulty logic and bad information just because pointing it out may cause a conflict?  If there is a history of "bad blood", does that give license to another to say as he wants no matter how much you disagree?  How long do you continue to be diplomatic when the otherside is not?  If your diplomatic efforts continue to be ignored, at what point does a sense of fairness warrent a retaliation?  (And please do not say "never" because we all have our breaking point, especially when it is your wife and marriage that is being attacked)
KenC

[acrzybear]

Ken C

 Perhaps it's my job or maybe because I'm just an A-hole that likes to deal with facts, but what I find usually works when I'm dealing with someone that I do not care for (There are a bunch that sit in an office downtown I have to deal with occasionally).

  If I do not know about the subject in question, I ask them to show me the policy/statistic/law from a reputable source.  One of several things usually happens;

They either do some work and find a source and I learn something
They back off and leave me alone so I don't bring it up again

Or I just tune them out.

  I think the same response could be applied here- ask the person where they recieved their information and if they do not provide it-then they are shown for what they are.

  The  problem as I see (I still do this on occasion believe it or not ) is everyone HAS to prove they're right!! and they get into a contest.

  I've realized as I get older most of things I get irritated at just aren't worth it.

  Now if I was married to a beautiful lady from Russia and living in a southern California city, I wouldn't really give a damn if people on an internet board took my advice or not-I ain't got nothin to prove. If they took my advice great, glad I was able to help someone out.  But if they want to do things their way-have a nice life and don't come to me if you fall on your arse.

  But your problem is that beneath your gruffness (not sure if that's actually a word) you just care too damn much.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Now if I was married to a beautiful lady from Russia and living in a southern California city, I wouldn't really give a damn if people on an internet board took my advice or not-I ain't got nothin to prove. If they took my advice great, glad I was able to help someone out.  But if they want to do things their way-have a nice life and don't come to me if you fall on your arse.

  But your problem is that beneath your gruffness (not sure if that's actually a word) you just care too damn much.

Bear, spot on! Very true. 

[viking]

Bear

Gruffiness. Real word. You just missed the  "i" .

[Photo Guy]

The Garth Brooks robbery thing sounds far fetched!
 
...but Country & Western have a history of... well, did
Minnie Pearl actually steal those items of clothing?
 :brightidea: :noidea: :hairraising:      LOL

[Admin]

Ken C

 Perhaps it's my job or maybe because I'm just an A-hole that likes to deal with facts, but what I find usually works when I'm dealing with someone that I do not care for (There are a bunch that sit in an office downtown I have to deal with occasionally).

  If I do not know about the subject in question, I ask them to show me the policy/statistic/law from a reputable source.  One of several things usually happens;

They either do some work and find a source and I learn something
They back off and leave me alone so I don't bring it up again

Or I just tune them out.

  I think the same response could be applied here- ask the person where they recieved their information and if they do not provide it-then they are shown for what they are.

  The  problem as I see (I still do this on occasion believe it or not ) is everyone HAS to prove they're right!! and they get into a contest.

  I've realized as I get older most of things I get irritated at just aren't worth it.

  Now if I was married to a beautiful lady from Russia and living in a southern California city, I wouldn't really give a damn if people on an internet board took my advice or not-I ain't got nothin to prove. If they took my advice great, glad I was able to help someone out.  But if they want to do things their way-have a nice life and don't come to me if you fall on your arse.

  But your problem is that beneath your gruffness (not sure if that's actually a word) you just care too damn much.

Bear,

That's a really well put-together post. I'd like to add a few things. Well, more than a few - this is turning out to be a LONG piece.

I have run RWD for several years now. Prior to that, I was an anonymous moderator on one of the most popular travel boards for people visiting the FSU. And prior to that, in my professional life, I was what CompuServe used to call a "Sysop" on a discussion forum prior to the internet taking hold and running systems like CompuServe into the dust.

There are a few characteristics that I've observed - for example:

* Those people who begin into an argument on the open forum - when they have a genuine interest in seeking mutual understanding - they rarely post flames on the open forum. They take it to private communications til they work it out - and then let everyone else in on the resolution. Sometimes it is an agreement to disagree - but when handled in this manner, it is civil and respectful and dignified. This is rare - but it *IS* the desired approach.

* When you see eruptions of the sort we have seen at RWD this past month, it is often the result of residue built up over past months. I think I know a little of what has transpired, and will address that separately. For now, it should be noted that oftentimes what you see on the surface, has something much different in the background which fuels it.

* Invariably on discussion fora, you find a cadre of experienced old-timers (not necessarily OLD chronologically, but they've been active at that forum longer than most). It is a common complaint that the old-timers (we fondly refer to them as OMB's) are impatient with newbies - particularly when a newbie arrives and does not show the forum members the respect/courtesy of doing a few searches and reading through the archived posts before launching into a series of questions that have been asked and answered a thousand times. This is natural behavior and there is not much to be done about it - except to remind the newbies of the location and value of the 'Search' function.

* Some have claimed that several of our OMB's enjoy a certain "protection" here at RWD. I want to take the case of KenC, in particular.

I have known Ken since we were both posting on the Planet-Love board - the first discussion forum on the internet for international relationships - back in 1997 or 1998.

Planet-Love has been referred to by some as a "quagmire" and a "cesspool" - while others referred to is as the "butterflies and rainbows" board. It was always interesting to me to see the wide disparity in perspectives about PL. The owner at that time was pretty hands-off. He owned an agency for Latin American women, and his interests in the FSU were primarily to provide a venue for information exchange. He would occasionally make an appearance to delete some of the garbage that was posted - and there was a lot of it. He even banned me once for a short time. I recall it being stated that; "testosterone is sprayed around here with a firehose at times" - which might give you some idea of the kind of flamewars that erupted - with some regularity, I might add.

Back in 2001 (IIRC) Olya and I took my eldest son to San Diego to meet up with a world-class tennis coach. My son is in the top 100 players in the country in his age group. While there we met Ken and Lena. I felt I knew him from the hundreds (or thousands) of posts which I had seen - and the personal contact we had through emails - so meeting them face-to-face was only natural.

Some time ago a very wise man told me that you can tell everything about how a man treats his wife, by the 'countenance' of the wife. It was clear instantly that Ken and Lena had a very strong relationship. Ken treats her like a queen, and she responds back. Ken referred to her recently as having a "kick azz personality" - and to demonstrate, consider this:

My son was 10 or 11 at the time. He had just come off the court playing 4 or 5 hours with this coach we had met, and we hurried over to meet Ken and Lena for dinner. They pulled up in a Mercedes, IIRC, and Lena was - like most RW - dressed VERY nicely - high heels and all. Lena strikes this pose of an ultra-elegant model quality lady dressed to kill and stunningly beautiful.

She meets my son and starts teasing him. All of a sudden, when we arrived at the restaurant, they decide to race! Lena, for all her elegance and grace and in heels, is running down the street with my son to see who could arrive at the door of the restaurant first.

It may seem trivial to those who read it - but my point is this. Lena is a woman who tangibly demonstrates her 'countenance' in her confidence, her elegance, her grace, her playfulness and her intelligence. Ken fosters that. She would not be all that without Ken cultivating and contributing to it.

Does Ken care? Absolutely. He is among the people whom I count on and trust most. I often ask him for counsel. Is he crusty? Sometimes. And with good reason.

When RWD first started - and during the entire period we were posting at PL, Ken was VERY cautious about sending his photos around. He knew there would be some who would choose to take the low-road and ridicule that which they failed to comprehend - and he just didn't need the aggravation. It took a VERY long time for Ken to post his photos here at RWD, and he did so only after becoming comfortable with the 'community' here. Since he made that choice, he has had his photo pilfered at least twice - and openly ridiculed at other sites. At times, I feel bad - very bad - that my friend who felt enough trust in this place I created that he shared his photos here for the first time, then is made to suffer by those who are ignorant of what he enjoys. It is not 'right'.

And for the record - some of those people who have ridiculed and insulted Ken will never realize that he has been among those few willing to reconsider those people to return to RWD. That, folks, is true forgiveness - and Ken demonstrates it - tangibly.

Nobody at RWD is above reproach in this small 'community' we have built here - but at the same time, people need to understand that communities are made up of people - and people have natural reactions. I cannot honestly say that I treat Ken the same as everyone else, because the truth is, I don't treat him the same.

And now a final chapter in this long missive.

Some may mistake my comments above to suggest that I feel only the OMB's have real value. Nothing could be further from the truth. I learned a lesson - a valuable one, not so terribly long ago.

Olya and I had a major crisis which occurred within a couple of years in our marriage. I wrote briefly about it at PL at the time. The crisis threatened our marriage. Interestingly, there was a guy at PL who had met Olya and I in Kyiv - and who had become almost the laughing stock of the PL board. Reason was - he was a guy who openly admitted to living in a trailer in rural TN, and growing tomatoes, as one of his means of living. He was a prolific poster who was often posting from left field somewhere - and he gave everyone the impression he was a dingbat. Yet, when the crisis occurred, and based on VERY little information shared at PL, this same guy nailed it. He was, in fact, empathetic beyond anyone else on the forum - even those who knew me well. He proved something to me, at a time when my life and marriage were in dire crisis - and that is - even those who most have branded an airhead, given the right circumstances, have enormous value and insight to share.

As much as I learned about Olya (and myself) through that crisis - I also learned something of my fellow man.

OK - that is about all I can muster for the moment.

- Dan

[KenC]

Dan,
Thank you for all the kind words about Lena and I.  And also thank you for the appropriate deletion.   We all just need to move on.

'Bout that 'mater farmer, I know exactly who you are speaking of, but cannot remember his handle.  He was a hoot.  Your story does however remind me of:
Even a blind squirrel will find a nut occasionally.
Take care my friend,
KenC

[acrzybear]

Bear, spot on! Very true. 

AAHHHH Anastassia if only you were single 

 

Bear,

That's a really well put-together post. - Dan

Dan
I appreciate the kind words about my post from you and the lovely lady, but that is not one of my better pieces.  My old English teacher would have had a conniption if she ever saw me write like that

.

 I had to throw a bit of the Queens English in so it wouldn't sound quite as unedjumacated.  AND I just love using these smileys


Viking

 I wasn't 100% sure at the time, but I just looked it up and it is a word, particularly in the context I was using it;http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=gruffness

gruffness
One entry found.

gruff[1,adjective] 
   


Main Entry: gruff 
Function: adjective
Etymology: Dutch grof; akin to Old High German grob coarse, hruf scurf — more at dandruff
Date: 1691
1 : rough, brusque, or stern in manner, speech, or aspect <a gruff reply>
2 : being deep and harsh : hoarse <a gruff voice>
synonyms see bluff
— gruff·ly adverb
— gruff·ness noun 

Since this is a thread about diplomacy I will be mature about your attempt to correct me 


 

[SANDRO43]

Since this is a thread about diplomacy I will be mature about your attempt to correct me

Bear, either he meant:

1.Gruffiness:
To get rough and rowdy
Can you get the Gruffiness on like a laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge black a$$ mama!! Can you get that on?!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gruffiness

- or -
he's turning into another Christian (heaven forbid ) .

[viking]

Bear

My intention was not to correct. You questioned if the spelling was correct, my interest was aroused and I looked it up but missed the adjectively part. No offense given and none taken. But to be totally diplomatic 

Sandro

Yep. I got it from the urban dictionary. Another Christian?  siete pazzeschi?

[acrzybear]

Bear, either he meant:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gruffiness

- or -
he's turning into another Christian (heaven forbid ) .

Sandro

 I think he was just
 (A) verifying that gruffness was a word (albeit misspelled without the i and he
       was just educating me.)

 (B) He was just correcting my spelling, it's all fine I just had to get off my lazy   
      arse and .

 See you CAN teach an old bear.

  And as far as the other name you mentioned, I only catch his posts when someone reposts them.  Ignore is such a wonderful feature

[SANDRO43]

...albeit misspelled without the i

Not an unreasonable assumption, considering: fluffiness, stuffiness, etc.

Ignore is such a wonderful feature

Yes, why should it be that I miss Prince Alfie at times ?

[Jet]

If Garth Brooks had a shady past I suspect it would be able to find the source. I have done some searching and came up with nothing that remotely hints at a crime. And the excuse that 'he was before internet' does not go, you can dig up dirt on celebrities that never knew what a computer was.
So where I see it there is no source for the rumour. 

OK I've also done several days research to see if I could substantiate or dispel the rumor of Garth Brooks being involved in any criminal activity. I was able to find small comments and tidbits suggesting that this may have been an old urban legend which has since died out. The problem with the original timeframe cited was that Brooks was already a country music and Billboard superstar as early as 1989 and by late 1990 he was a multi million seller, so it would have had to have been sometime in the 80s either while he was enrolled at Oklahoma State University in Stillwater (1980-1984), back in Tulsa, OK (1984-1987) or After marrying his college GF and moving to Nashville (1987-1989). I've been unable to find any public, court, newspaper records to substantiate ANY criminal activity during those timeframes, in those metropolitan areas. Snopes.com also yields nothing relevant, but I have placed an inquiry with them regarding the accusation. The only items of even remote relevance that can be substantiated were:
Garth Brooks Ex Wife kidnapped at gunpoint in 2006
and a bunch of hits similar to this one:
WNLO-TV | CW23 - Buffalo, New York: Garth Brooks concerts to help ...

Music legend Garth Brooks announces a series of five concerts over two days to benefit ... Tonawanda Town Police Investigating Armed Robbery at Store ...
(two separate stories indexed in the same Google hit)

[catzenmouse]

Not an unreasonable assumption, considering: fluffiness, stuffiness, etc.Yes, why should it be that I miss Prince Alfie at times ?

LOL! I think the same thing every time I see that "he who is most ignored" posts. Also makes me think of the Blue Collar Comedy Tour and their "Here's your sign" routine.

Ken