Russian Women vs. Ukraine Women : Nationalism, etc.

[WmGO]

I don't know how to repost my other post from the "Political Wives"
thread here, so maybe someone can do that in the first response and then folks can post comments from there.

The *general* topic: are Russian women more nationalistic, xenophobic and paranoid than Ukraine women?  Do they present with more of the Mother Russia Complex than Ukraine women? 

My other post, which was the result of some of Muscovite Jazzy's comments also raise some other interesting questions.


 

[KenC]

I don't know how to repost my other post from the "Political Wives"
thread here, so maybe someone can do that in the first response and then folks can post comments from there.

The *general* topic: are Russian women more nationalistic, xenophobic and paranoid than Ukraine women?

Yes
 

Do they present with more of the Mother Russia Complex than Ukraine women?

 
Yes

My other post, which was the result of some of Muscovite Jazzy's comments also raise some other interesting questions.

Most of our Russian friends will debate politics forever, while the Ukrainians could care less.
KenC

[Serebro]

The *general* topic: are Russian women more nationalistic, xenophobic and paranoid than Ukraine women?  Do they present with more of the Mother Russia Complex than Ukraine women? 



 

Yes, but I would change it to"more proud and more patriotic".
they still suffer from the complex of "the big brother": when they paid money they had a lot of friends, as soon as they stopped paying money they became bad and knew many bad things about themselves.
Ukrainian people are very easy going and they don't take national offence close to heart.
As soon as you pay it doesn't matter if you are black, white, brown or you are from Mars.

[Jazzyclassy]

Russian people are not trying to suit anyone's taste they are who they are -natural without any premises mostly

[Kuna]

Ukrainian people are very easy going and they don't take national offence close to heart.

Orange Revolution wasn't a sign of patriotism?

[Fashionista]

The *general* topic: are Russian women more nationalistic, xenophobic and paranoid than Ukraine women?  Do they present with more of the Mother Russia Complex than Ukraine women? 

I noticed that the level of nationalism in FSU is directly proportional to the income of the person. People who are well-off have tendency to tie their own prosperety to success of the country itself. Maybe that's why women from Russia look more hyped up on Russian supremacy, then Ukranian women: the avarage income level is higher. It also differs from city to city inside Russia.

[Serebro]

Orange Revolution wasn't a sign of patriotism?

as soon as ordinary people were paid for taking part in it I wouldn't consider it to be a huge sign of patriotism.
But I find threads like this one pointless as discussing politics/patriotism always result in quarrels.

[Kuna]

as soon as ordinary people were paid for taking part in it I wouldn't consider it to be a huge sign of patriotism.

I won't debate it with you because I suspect this thread will be another where Russian pride overpowers common sense...     Just like American patriotism does at times too (just so you're aware I'm not Russia Bashing).

Still...  your retort that protestors during the Orange Revolution were paid actors, therefore not a huge sign of Patriotism is frivolous at best.

You're probably not aware of what's happening in Ukraine and are commenting only on your prejudices???

New nationalism is bordering on the ridiculous in Ukraine... 

Western Ukraine is driving the government to reject all things Russian from their society and that includes Russian language on television and in the cinema's. 

Ukrainian language teachers actually get paid more now that other teachers in an attempt to make Ukrainian language more attractive in schools.  If my wie is/was in Lviv and spoke Russian she would be berated by her own countrymen for even speaking Russian... but no, they're not patriotic.

The government is even going as far as changing street names away from Russian (revolutionary) names to more traditional Ukrainian names.  Can you imagine that???  Pothole filled roads get more attention through the changing of their names than actually filling the potholes?

There are many more examples and I hear all about the "Circus" every night when my wife reads the news from Ukraine... 

My wife is Ukrainian, but considers herself to be ethnic Russian.  She looks upon the forced "Ukrainianisation" of the people as a futile and wasteful..  but patriotism in Ukraine appears to be live and well - but not shared, especially those that are ethnic Russian. 

I often wonder if it'll come to a breaking point one day when the ethnic Russians finally regain a voice.

[BC]

If all the homeless were allowed to gather and sleep in the park across from the White House you would have something like the Orange Revolution me thinks..

..just stirring the pot.

[Serebro]

Kuna, that was a very long and useless point.
It's useless from th very beginning and is definitely written by the person who knows nothing about relations between these 2 countries and your opinion is based on naive facts what your "politically paid" mass media writes and shows.
It's dishonest of me to discuss these things with you, so I will not do it.
Let you belive your wife is the greatest patriot.
 

[Gator]

Some observations.

18 months ago I attended a small party in Kharkov of mainly UW.  Even though this region still has many ethnic Russians,  the UW that night were happily buzzing about a new national spirit.  They were relishing the moment of seeing their country in the World Cup, enjoying the Klitschko brothers, remembering fondly the Orange Revolution, and the sort. A couple may have been Russian.

They even discussed the struggle that lies in front of their country to advance their separation from Russian government.  The talk that night suggested that Russia bullying (gas deliveries, threat of military action, etc.) would make them even more determined.

A UW I dated for a couple of week-long meetings is from Kiev and she was making a point to converse in Ukrainian when talking to strangers, asking directions, etc.  She would ignore those who spoke in Russian.

Thus, I will say based on my limited experience that UW feel a lot of pride and nationalism.  Maybe it will decline when the bloom is off the rose and they fully understand how much work lies ahead.

To be balanced, another UW I dated from Zaporozhye was pro-Russian (actually pro-Soviet) and thought all of this nationalism was a crock of crap.  Also, she was adamant to explain that she is Russian, not Ukrainian even though born there.

 

[55North]

Alla comes from an unfashionable corner of Russia where the dislike of Moscow is greater than that for Ukraine.  Nevertheless, they do express some of the traditional Russian antipathy to Ukraine, and particularly Tymoshenko.  I was bemused by this, particularly as Alla has 2 Ukrainian uncles, a Ukrainian family name and knows much of my Ukrainian 'experience'.

At New Year's day breakfast, Alla's sister-in-law got down to some serious discussion of the issue, with Alla translating.  After about 2 hours, we both learnt some things without actually coming to blows, and am most pleased that she will become my 'sister-in-law-in-law".  Oh, and she offered me a job in her school!
 
I describe the Russian/Ukrainian historical relationship as not that different to that of England/Ireland, even unto starvation, and then explain how well we get on nowadays!  It's the economy wot does it.  Once people are economically settled and content, then benevolence will break out all over.
 
Of course, like any good Englishman, I have some Irish blood in me, as most from the Kuban steppe have Ukrainian.

[Misha]

The *general* topic: are Russian women more nationalistic, xenophobic and paranoid than Ukraine women?  Do they present with more of the Mother Russia Complex than Ukraine women? 

I thought it might be useful to nudge this thread. I am not sure whether Russian women are more nationalistic than Ukrainian women, but I do believe that there is a growing nationalism and xenophobia in Russia and women are not immune to the effects of this rising tide (I apologize for mixing many metaphors). This is evident in the discussion we have been having in the last few days.

The Russian state has cultivated a fear of foreigners. This is evidenced in a number of ways. This includes the "Nashi" propaganda that insinuated that the Americans wanted to colonize Russia. One photo from one of their brochures was of a new street sign being put up in Moscow: George W. Bush Avenue. The subtle forms of propaganda include the story that was planted in Russian media that former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright stated that Siberia holds too many natural resources for just one country's use and this alleged statement was then asked by one of the participants in Vladimir Putin's 2007 annual question-and-answer televised broadcast. Clearly, this question was asked for political effect: the goal is to reinforce the notion that Westerners, and the United States in particular, are lusting after Russia's resources and wealth. It promotes a "besieged" mentality where foreigners must be feared.

Given the current political trends in Russia, I would expect that the latent Russian nationalism will grow stronger if it continues to be stoked by the state and the media. For those that are married, this might have a chilling effect with relatives and friends back in Russia. Will Russian women who left Russia to marry foreigners be seen as "traitorous" in the future? Also, foreigners going to Russia risk being seen much more critically, and dating a foreigner may become much more socially unacceptable.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I am hoping for the best, but some of the trends from the past few years are quite worrisome.   

[wxman]

Eastern Ukrainians seems to be more disillusioned by their government. Perhaps that is a sign of a mature democracy as they have a strong opposition party.  Ukraine is still searching for it's identity since it's independence. Eastern part of Ukraine is more of Russian descent and I think many would still prefer to be part of Russia, while the west is more nationalistic and pro orange revolution. My fiancee is from the east and of Russian descent. She is proud of her Russian heritage as are many in the east. She is not too fond of the orange revolution and she does not have a rah rah Ukraine attitude. She also does not have a rah rah Russian attitude, but clearly identifies more with Russia than with Ukraine. Of course that attitude may change if the Party of Regions regains control.

[Shadow]

I thought it might be useful to nudge this thread. I am not sure whether Russian women are more nationalistic than Ukrainian women, but I do believe that there is a growing nationalism and xenophobia in Russia and women are not immune to the effects of this rising tide (I apologize for mixing many metaphors). This is evident in the discussion we have been having in the last few days.

The Russian state has cultivated a fear of foreigners. This is evidenced in a number of ways. This includes the "Nashi" propaganda that insinuated that the Americans wanted to colonize Russia. One photo from one of their brochures was of a new street sign being put up in Moscow: George W. Bush Avenue. The subtle forms of propaganda include the story that was planted in Russian media that former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright stated that Siberia holds too many natural resources for just one country's use and this alleged statement was then asked by one of the participants in Vladimir Putin's 2007 annual question-and-answer televised broadcast. Clearly, this question was asked for political effect: the goal is to reinforce the notion that Westerners, and the United States in particular, are lusting after Russia's resources and wealth. It promotes a "besieged" mentality where foreigners must be feared.

Given the current political trends in Russia, I would expect that the latent Russian nationalism will grow stronger if it continues to be stoked by the state and the media. For those that are married, this might have a chilling effect with relatives and friends back in Russia. Will Russian women who left Russia to marry foreigners be seen as "traitorous" in the future? Also, foreigners going to Russia risk being seen much more critically, and dating a foreigner may become much more socially unacceptable.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I am hoping for the best, but some of the trends from the past few years are quite worrisome.   

This is not unlike the strategy that is know in the USA. After the fall of the Soviet Union it was replaced by Iran, Iraq and Al Qaida in that order, with North Korea lining up as next enemy and hopes of Russia being able to turn back in to the big danger in the future.
As it works for the USA, Russia is copying it to create a nationalism.

Ukrainians are less xenophobic (unless they see Russians) because they have had less trouble with people getting in to their country, and they are in the process of recreating a national identity, supported by Western funds. The division in Ukraine is a historic one, and will not cease for a long time. Lets hope that they can avoid having the country fall apart.

[55North]

Just as Islam will become a majority religion in many European urban communities, and Catholicism shall eventually be dominant in Northern Ireland, so shall first-language Ukrainian speakers dominate in Ukraine.
 
It's the demographics.  Somewhere, on another board, I recall posting statistics that showed a clear difference in the net birth rates of east and west Ukraine. As all Ukrainian children are taught the language in school (I believe), and from this year, television and films must be spoken, dubbed or sub-title in Ukrainian, the separation from Russia is effectively complete.
 
If Russia could ever be a true Federation, and let 'her people' go, ie. devolve her various republics into true nations, she could still be the France or Germany of an EU type union.  It could be called the Commonwealth of Independent States.   :brightidea: