Materialism

[BC]

In my case, the " deep love " professed by the RW was partly due to the fact that they would not have to seek outside employment if I brought them here. They really loved that fact, more than I can describe here. That is a luxury many people may not have, their wives have to work.
....
The other option may be seek less well educated women like hair dressers etc. whose skills are easily transferable.

Initially not having to work can be appealing, but this may wear off over time IMHE.. 'gilded cage' syndrome.

Rather than less educated, (which can get boring for the partner), a well developed hobby or craft would probably help.

Piano/other popular instrument/ music teacher, or even mathematician might be good.. math and music being universal languages anyway.

[groovlstk]

In my case, the " deep love " professed by the RW was partly due to the fact that they would not have to seek outside employment if I brought them here. They really loved that fact, more than I can describe here. That is a luxury many people may not have, their wives have to work.

I'm not sure I understand this - these women felt a deeper love for you when you told them they wouldn't have to work in the US? Sounds to me that deep pockets have more to do with their sentiments than deep love.

[ambach123]

You are correct, exactly my feeling groovstick: that is why I am not married to one.

[Diplomacy]

Groov:

I meant starting over in their respective fields.  I also believe a good women, will do whatever it takes to provide for her family.  Yes, do not underestimate the need to work.  I have been told, and have stated before.

"A strong woman works, raises a family, is a good wife, and whatever the family needs at the time."

The lack of a job is a real issue, if they are feel as though they are not strong woman.  It seems to be an all or none scenario.  "Golden Cages", are a great example of that.  Some woman I have talked to, feel that way.  They have beautiful children, nice cars, take care of their husband.  Still they feel that they are in a golden cage.  Their husband does not want them to work.

Is it fair to say that factor causing this belief, is that they have no job?

I hear anything is beneath them, I would walk away.  It just is too close to sense of entitlement.

Maybe it is my influence, of having relationships with Ex-pats.  They love life here, and are proud of what they have accomplished.  They were afforded an opportunity.  One that would not have been there for them in the FSU.  They knew it was going to be a lot of sweat equity, when they arrived here.  They still came, and do not complain about anything.

That is the expectations I set.  I was warned of this mentality, from the ex-pats.  They feel there are good women that come here, and speak like some of the women on the boards.  For the most part though, they warned that there are women that want it all.  They do not want to work for it, they want it handed to them.  Marrying a rich guy, is not working for it IMO.  In their minds, it is. 

I am sorry, but that is reality.  I am sure a WM is fine, if you can offer the world to them.  I just would not be fine with it.   Just do not mistake it for love of you.  I am not alluding to your wife, possessing any traits.  Just trying to put a better frame of explanation, to what you objected to.

GOB:

I think your wife is a good example.  Started as a teller and proved herself worthy of promotion.  That really makes my point.  The issue is that her degrees are Math based.  Education, medical, and various other degrees; are going to take years to attain an equivalent level in the United States.

Hobbies are a good start, and I know more than one person who can find a sense of purpose in them.

I did just what you are saying it is not fair for them to have to do.  I worked at Walmart, tended bar, worked in a warehouse, manufacturing line, and went to college.  There was no other way, and I had to sacrifice.

If I lost my job, I would have no problem doing it again.  My family is my priority, and I will do whatever is necessary to keep a roof over their head.  Make sure they have food, cloths,  and necessary things.  It may not even be the same roof, as we could afford now.

Do I believe it will have to be this way?  No, but it will be if it needs to be. I know my fiance would be doing the same, if that was the only choice.  I do not ask for anyone to do something, that I am not willing to do.

My fiance wants to work, and we will work on her career together.  I told her that it is up to her what she does.  I would work towards building a career.  What she decides she will do for a job or career, I will support and work with her to attain.

I also told her to not think too much about it now.  It is better to discuss after she has been here, and has experienced America for herself.

 

[groovlstk]

I meant starting over in their respective fields.  I also believe a good women, will do whatever it takes to provide for her family.  Yes, do not underestimate the need to work.  I have been told, and have stated before.

I agree that a good woman will do whatever it takes for her family. That is no excuse, however, to use it as an excuse to push her to take a menial job as soon as she's eligible for work - and then questioning her commitment when the resentment surfaces. Of course there are messy life incidents like job loss, sickness, etc. that may require a husband or wife to take on extraordinary responsibilities to keep the family's head above water - but these are special circumstances.

I hear anything is beneath them, I would walk away.  It just is too close to sense of entitlement.

It all depends on the woman and her expectations. Some, like Ambach's dates, are thrilled with the idea that they won't have to work again.

If you are getting serious with a woman who loves her career or (like my wife) needs it as a creative outlet, I think it's unreasonable to expect her to work as a laborer "for the good of the family."

I dated quite a few RW living in the US and the job/income thing was second most popular item on their list of complaints about their American husbands.

Bottom line is once again communication - if you talk through these things and come to an agreement or plan, then you've both done your homework. But any guy who doesn't discuss this at length w/his fiancee before filing a K1 has absolutely no right to assume his wife will be happy driving a Good Humor truck "for the good of the family."

[Diplomacy]

 

I dated quite a few RW living in the US and the job/income thing was second most popular item on their list of complaints about their American husbands.

Those are the women I am talking about Groov.  What was their life entailing in the FSU?  What did they have?  What did they do to improve themselves in America?  Why are they looking solely at their husbands income?  What did they do, to improve the income of the family?  I am not talking menial jobs, so please take it out of the equation.

I could go on for a long time.  Men in this pursuit, need to watch out for this scenario.  I can not warn a man enough.  She did not love her exhusband in a lot of cases.  Feels she is entitled to a lot, just for marrying a man.  It is her,her,her,her.  The blame is on him,him,him,him.

I can post all day long about men that are controlling, and abusive towards the FSUW they married.  The women I am describing are not in that situation.  It will never be enough, they will suck the life out of you.  You keep trying to make someone happy, that can not be happy.  Their woman's emphasis is on status, not love.

There will always be something, that could improve their status.  They will not appreciate anything, just want more and more.  Those marriage agencies are full of varying degrees of this mentality.  Some are better at hiding it that others.

[GoodOlBoy]

But any guy who doesn't discuss this at length w/his fiancee before filing a K1 has absolutely no right to assume his wife will be happy driving a Good Humor truck "for the good of the family."

Hey Groovlstk.....us GoodOlBoy's are kinda' partial to Mr. Softee.  

Man, I sure do miss having one of those Mister Softee cones on a hot summer day !  


GOB

[GoodOlBoy]

I dated quite a few RW living in the US and the job/income thing was second most popular item on their list of complaints about their American husbands.

And the first most "popular" complaint was ?  :noidea:

Maybe location? (village)


GOB

[Diplomacy]

1st complaint.  Not real men

We will see what others have heard.  That has been my experience though.

[tfcrew]

Apologies if this has been mentioned...
Women who grew up in the Soviet system tend to not be so materialistic.
The new generation...that's a different story.
Best to all
Karl

[GoodOlBoy]

Diplomacy, I live in Sunny Isles Beach (N. Miami), there are thousands of RW/UW here, many divorced.

The "Laundry List" I hear most of the time about their failed marriages:

He has bad habits (usually drinking to much), Abused me (hit or yelled), Gambles to much, Spends to much money on himself, Lies all the time, Doesn't know how to behave himself, etc. etc.  

Oh yeah Betrayal.....Runs around with other women (this one I don't understand?). I mean come on, can you imagine all of the trouble and money it takes to bring one of these ladies over here and then you go out and cheat on her?..... It really makes no sense.

But the second thing that almost always comes out of ALL their mouths is: "I lived in a village" and "I felt like I was dying there".

I have heard this so many times that I wonder if it really wasn't the number #1 reason, but they just didn't want to admit it?


GOB

[groovlstk]

Those are the women I am talking about Groov.  What was their life entailing in the FSU?  What did they have?  What did they do to improve themselves in America?  Why are they looking solely at their husbands income?  What did they do, to improve the income of the family?  I am not talking menial jobs, so please take it out of the equation.

I don't think I'd put these women in the bad category, mostly because I never heard their ex-husband's stories, so it's hard to tell what's embellished and what's not. But several women had to work at menial jobs very soon after they arrived in the US and this came as a shock to them. Again, it's more of a communications issue than anything else.

I think we're on the same page about all this, there are simply many variations to women's expecatations when they arrive and every couple should know very clearly what these expecatations are. Where I'd disagree (and maybe I am not reading your posts correctly) is that I don't believe it's a character flaw or a red flag if a female working as a doctor in Russia feels that working as a shop clerk is beneath her - because it surely is. 

I could go on for a long time.  Men in this pursuit, need to watch out for this scenario.  I can not warn a man enough.  She did not love her exhusband in a lot of cases.  Feels she is entitled to a lot, just for marrying a man.  It is her,her,her,her.  The blame is on him,him,him,him.

I agree it's a two-way street, but nearly all the RW I dated in the US married one-week-wonders. The women's expectations in these situations are often fantasies. If a guy marries a girl who speaks no English and her expectations about her new life are formed from the photos he shows her, he sows what he reaps.

I can post all day long about men that are controlling, and abusive towards the FSUW they married.  The women I am describing are not in that situation.  It will never be enough, they will suck the life out of you.  You keep trying to make someone happy, that can not be happy.  Their woman's emphasis is on status, not love.

There will always be something, that could improve their status.  They will not appreciate anything, just want more and more.  Those marriage agencies are full of varying degrees of this mentality.  Some are better at hiding it that others.

I'm not advocating for such women. Any woman (or man) who marries for reasons other than love - whether she wants to be pampered for the rest of her life, has unquenchable ambition and thinks she'll rise higher in the US, or is desperate to escape a life of misery - is in for a rough ride.

[Diplomacy]

Groov:

Yes, I was not clear enough about the menial job issue.  You honed in on that part.  A know a female Russian Doctor here.  She studied and worked in the health care industry.  It took I believe 10 years for her to do it. 

She is actually a very good friends with my Mother.  This Doctor, was quick to make sure I was forming a relationship with a "good woman".

My most important point is.  We are quick to look at what we did not do, not at what we have done.  I believe a certain amount of the divorces, and men living in misery or denial are with women that could not be happy.

They try and try.  It is part to do with materialism, generational changes of priorities, self centered, unrealistic expectations, pride, envy, kindness seen as weakness, thinking they are smarter than WM, calculating, heartless personality traits. 

[ambach123]

Groovstck, you said about the second most popular complaint.

Which was most popular complaint?

Thanks.

[Blues Fairy]

Not all women arrive with adequate evaluation of their own skills and marketability.  My mother, for instance, moved to Stockholm having worked for 25 years as an Historian in a research institute in Siberia, writing articles about the population of Soviet peasants in post-war period.  She still rants occasionally why nobody in Stockhom would hire her as an Historian.  She works in a souvenir shop in Gamlastan.  But then, job market in Sweden is completely screwed.  

I am very aware that my experience in IT solution selling in the Russian market is not entirely applicable to the local scene.  So I'm happy to care for baby and learn other skills while my husband provides.  Hopefully the job market here will not be entirely screwed by the current administration by the time I'm ready for a new job search.

[Misha]

But several women had to work at menial jobs very soon after they arrived in the US and this came as a shock to them.

It seems to me they might want to talk to their aunts and mothers back in Russia. In the 1990's there were plenty of women (and men) with doctorates doing menial work or working outside of their profession to make some money for their families to survive. This includes spending a lot of time planting and hoeing potatoes and planting gardens....

Not to say that a RW going to live in the USA or Europe should get a job hoeing potatoes, but it should not come as a surprise to RW that at times one may have to work in jobs that are not the ones that are necessarily desired in order to build a better future.

[BC]

As with many interactions in life, what we see are symptoms and not cause.

Placed in a different environment we all will change in many, and often unpredictable ways.

There are no magic bullets. Maybe, just maybe with a lot of effort things will work out.

[Gator]

Initially not having to work can be appealing, but this may wear off over time IMHE.. 'gilded cage' syndrome.

Every RW is different.  Some women want to raise children and have no interest in working.  Others stay busy with hobbies such as collecting jewelery, playing tennis or boinking her fitness instructor.   Of those who work, many appreciate the sense of financial security afforded by a good job.  Others enjoy working and seek a fulfilling professional position as well as income.  

I see all of the above types in RW.  I also see all of the above in AW.  Is there a difference?  I suppose the percentage of RW who are lazy is smaller, a quality inherent with deciding to relocate.  In fact, many RW have a lot of drive and determination.

[groovlstk]

Groovstck, you said about the second most popular complaint.

Which was most popular complaint?

Thanks.

Ambach, the #1 complaint I heard was that their ex-husbands were too controlling. Maybe it's true but I take it with a tiny grain of salt because we know two couples among our Russian friends in which the woman is unhappy and both boil it down to the same thing. One woman is actively looking for a replacement husband, the other is resigned to life with a guy she doesn't love.

But in watching these couples together I'd guess their chief complaint is really just a symptom. The women married RM who were already living in the US, maybe love wasn't their motivation or maybe they lost that lovin' feeling somewhere down the line. They want to go out with their female friends w/out hubby and have built their own social network that he's not part of. After some time hubby objects to his wife going out 3 nights per week and leaving him home. Is the problem that he's too controlling or is the problem his wife going out without him too often? Draw your own conclusions.

[SANDRO43]

Not all women arrive with adequate evaluation of their own skills and marketability.

Quite so . I was chatting with a 35 y.o. neurologist from Nikolaev a few weeks ago - she works in a public hospital and expressed fears of losing her job - who was aghast when I told her that her FSU degree and professional qualifications would NOT allow her to find a similar occupation in the West, unless she'd almost start all over again to re-qualify.

[BC]

Quite so . I was chatting with a 35 y.o. neurologist from Nikolaev a few weeks ago - she works in a public hospital and expressed fears of losing her job - who was aghast when I told her that her FSU degree and professional qualifications would NOT allow her to find a similar occupation in the West, unless she'd almost start all over again to re-qualify.

She needn't worry.  Neurons will begin firing away at full speed even if she shows up in the uniform of a nurse.
 

[JR]

Groov:
My most important point is.  We are quick to look at what we did not do, not at what we have done.  I believe a certain amount of the divorces, and men living in misery or denial are with women that could not be happy.

Great point Groov, those last four words fits my X to the tee.

[ambach123]

JR please explain if you noticed those characterstics during courtship. I assume you were married.

[Gator]

Is the problem that he's too controlling or is the problem his wife going out without him too often? Draw your own conclusions.

There are always two sides to each story.  In your example, I infer that the man could not entertain himself when his wife did her "girls' night out."  He needs to take up poker, sports or some other hobby rather than stay home alone and make himself feel miserable.  He gets worked up and starts asking her "controlling" questions.

I do not consider that a RW wife (or any wife) is a man's sole answer to happiness.  The RW wife is not responsible for the man's happiness; he is responsible.  A man and woman, in my opinion, should have time away from each other.  Nevertheless, your example of 3 nights per week with the girls is too much. 

That is my opinion, and perhaps other men want a wife who is always at his side.  If so, he must confirm and verify that this is indeed her concept of happiness.

[SANDRO43]

She needn't worry.  Neurons will begin firing away at full speed even if she shows up in the uniform of a nurse. 

A Doctor like her would have to be very Patient to accept downscaling to Nurse level .

[youtube=425,350]www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQSbKBTuQBc[/youtube]