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Author Topic: Norway's Immigration Maze  (Read 7181 times)

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Offline Ade

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Norway's Immigration Maze
« on: August 05, 2009, 04:39:10 AM »
Well, some of you may know a little of my story from my gloating that getting my fiancée into Norway was going to be relatively easy via the EEA rules Norway has to follow that allow an EEA citizen living in an EEA country other than his own to bring their wife into the country; this was even confirmed to me via email from a UDI (Norway's immigration service) employee. Every country in the EEA has this agreement including the UK which at least one (ex) member has used successfully.

Cock sure of this, my new wife and I visited the immigration office in the police station yesterday to do the necessary forms. My stomach dropped as the woman said that it was not possible to bring my wife into the country using EEA regulations and that she would have to leave the country when her tourist visa expired and then apply for a family reunification permit; this takes up to 11 months to get and she would not be allowed back into the country until it's approved.

After some research and calls it seems that the EEA route is only viable for those that entered the country using the EEA rules. I came into the country married to a Norwegian and so a different set of rules applied to me. So even though I'm an EEA citizen I cannot take advantage of the perks.  :(

After several calls to the UDI (and about an hour on hold) they've told me that even though it's policy to reject family reunion applicants inside the country they do make exceptions if the applicants can document that they have a degree level education. This doesn't seem to be a documented official policy anywhere I can find though (and I can tell you I've looked and looked) but it has been confirmed by 2 different UDI employees. So it seems they bend the rules for skilled workers.

This is a little bit better than the position we were in yesterday which was not a nice place and included a few tears. So T can stay and we have 3 weeks to get the (enormous and quite varied pile) of paperwork together including the translations of her education papers sent over by her mother. Our planned trip to Russia in October to update her internal passport with her new name will have to be cancelled though which is a bit of a bugger.

The one good thing about this, and I guess it's a biggy, is that once she is in with a family reunification visa she is allowed to stay here independently of me and after 3 years she will be entitled to apply for a permanent settlement visa like I have. With the EEA visa thing, I think she would only be allowed to stay as long as I was around; if I got hit by a bus I think she'd be forced out of the country.

Offline BillyB

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 07:05:51 AM »
Sorry to hear the crap you got to go through SJ. Good luck to you both on getting together permanantly. Your wife seems like she's worth the wait.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Ade

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 10:12:58 AM »
Sorry to hear the crap you got to go through SJ. Good luck to you both on getting together permanantly. Your wife seems like she's worth the wait.

Thanks.  We're planning that she will stay passed her tourist visa expiration now. We're getting all the paperwork together for the "family reunion visa" and her mother is going to send us the relevant docs we need. We just have to keep our fingers crossed that the immigration people weren't taking the piss when they said they bend the rules for those with a higher education - the last thing we need is for the police knocking on the door to get her deported!

Offline BillyB

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 10:46:56 AM »
We're planning that she will stay passed her tourist visa expiration now. - the last thing we need is for the police knocking on the door to get her deported!

I hope you know what you're doing SJ. I'd hate for Norway to remove your wife's rights for ever coming back into the country if she overstays her visa. If Norway's anything like the USA, her entering and leaving will be in the computer system and could set off alarms if she doesn't leave the country on time. Good luck to you whatever you two decide to do. I understand it's very hard to be separated from the one you love.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Gator

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 03:57:21 PM »
SJ,

Bummer!  Sorry to learn of your struggle.

Your "T" will see that you are still completely committed to marrying her even though the path is not so easy.  A good relationship becomes even stronger when facing a problem together.

My wife and I went through the process of accreditalizing (sp?) her academic credentials, and it was not easy.  One certification company wanted a sealed letter from her university.

Thanks for sharing. Wishing you the best. 

Offline Ade

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 01:01:58 PM »
Yay! Today, 2 months to the day after applying for the family reunion, we received an approval letter! :) We were lucky that it was so quick as a lot of people applying for this have to wait 6 to 12 months! I credit our success to the very careful application preparation and the supporting documentation we sent with it; all half a kilo of it! Tanya will now get a settlement visa like mine here and will get the chance for Norwegian citizenship if she wants it in some years.

It still boggles my mind that the "higher education" loophole that allows people to apply while in country is not documented anywhere that's publicly accessible.  There have been quite a few people on a Russian/Norwegian forum elsewhere that have been in a similar position to my wife and I and they were totally unaware that they can use this method to stay with their husbands.

Life is pretty damn awesome. :)

Offline Shadow

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 01:55:44 PM »
Congrats SJ, and I am happy you did not fall through the loopholes. The ruling of hig education is one that is not very well known, and perhaps that is for the better. ;)
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Gator

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 03:09:46 PM »
Congratulations SJ and T!

Regarding the loophole, maybe it is something the immigration officials reserve to help those whom they want to help. 

If they don't like someone, and that someone asks about the education loophole, the officials would say "What loophole.  Please show me where we have a loophole in our regulations." 

Australia requires an embassy interview at the start of the fiancée visa process rather than the end as done by the USA.  Here is Kuna's remarkable experience:

I've had an incredible week (or two) and was writing a long post to update everyone but business and meeting Russian government officials (senior ones... interesting ones...  and one VERY interesting one) seemed so limp compared to yesterday.

So...  My Girl went for her interview in Moscow just a little over 2 weeks ago... actually 2 weeks and 2 days ago (as of yesterday).

They confirmed the normal visa processing time was an average of 5 months but it could take 10 months (85% of Visas are completed (approved or not) within 10 months)...

Well... yesterday My Girl got a phone call from the Embassy and they said they have approved her visa on one condition... ONLY if she can be in Australia within 3 weeks.

OF COURSE WE SAID YES!

I have no idea why...  I have no idea how... I have no idea about almost anything that has happened in the last few weeks but right now My Girl is madly making her final arrangements at home and I am arranging fights and she will arrive in Oz in the first week of October.


Who says bureaucrats have pointed heads!

Offline Vaughn

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2009, 06:34:29 PM »
It still boggles my mind that the "higher education" loophole that allows people to apply while in country is not documented anywhere that's publicly accessible.

VERY happy for you both, SJ - I agree with Gator - the office might have an unwritten policy like
"We reserve the right to exercise our power that may or may not be in accordance with posted
policy, and to exercise that power as we deem fit." They like you two.

The settlement visa certainly sounds like the superior deal. Congratulations to both of you.

An off-topic question brought on by her October trip cancellation - what effects, good and bad,
will having T change her internal passport to show her married name? Will there be any existing
"ownership" issues? Another question (sorry): If she decides later to get citizenship there, what
agreements, if any, exist between Norway and Russia, ie, dual citizenship? 

Offline Ade

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 02:18:22 AM »
Thanks guys. I didn't think I was worried until I saw the letter sitting in the postbox and then all my suppressed worries came flooding out. I really didn't expect it to be as quick so I expected the worse. I managed to keep composed until Tanya had opened the letter though. :D Damn, not something I want to do often.

I'm not sure what it is with the "unofficial" or at least unwritten higher education rule. Maybe it is a way for them to be selective or maybe it's just that they are crap at keeping their online information updated. It could also be that it's not a "rule" that is officially endorsed by the government so they can't publish it?

A lot of people have come a cropper because of it; one story we've heard involved a married couple (Norwegian man/Russian woman) that got married in Norway, then she left Norway as the official rules dictate to apply for family immigration. She found out she was pregnant just after the application was made and by the time they approved her application, she'd already given birth. She then had to reapply for immigration because the approval didn't cover her child and that took another 12 months. It was almost 2 years after she originally left Norway before she was back there living with her husband!

An off-topic question brought on by her October trip cancellation - what effects, good and bad,
will having T change her internal passport to show her married name? Will there be any existing "ownership" issues?

No ownership issues for her and she plans on unregistering from her mother's apartment where she lived after moving back from Moscow 3 years ago. She trusts her family to do the right thing if, in a worse case scenario, she ever needs to go back there. Her mother is buying the apartment anyway with full support of her children so the old communist system where the kids automatically have a share of the apartment does not apply any more.

We've had a rethink on how we are going to do the name change - Tanya couldn't sleep so she did some reading last night. :D She will probably make it official that she's moving out of Russia; apparently, this will mean that she will be able to renew her internal passport at the embassy in Oslo. the drawback is that when we go back there, she will also have to register her arrival. She doesn't see it as a big deal as we have to register me anyway.

Another question (sorry): If she decides later to get citizenship there, what
agreements, if any, exist between Norway and Russia, ie, dual citizenship? 

We're not sure about the dual citizenship thing yet as there's a bunch of hidden "gotchas" - for instance, if we apply for our kids to get Russian citizenship, they will lose their Norwegian citizenship if the Norwegian government finds out (yes, we've heard of this happening when the Russian embassy informed the Norwegians). This is a Norwegian rule that applies to dual citizenships that aren't automatic; so, for instance, our kids will automatically get British citizenship through me and Norway will be fine with that.

Anyway, she won't be eligible to apply of Norwegian citizenship for 5 years I think, so there's a long time for rules to change and for us to figure out the best way for us.

Tomorrow we will go an do the final paperwork at the police and then she can sign up for the 800 hours of free Norwegian courses she's been looking forward to. :) I guess it also means we'll be going back to Russia for Christmas or maybe sooner, which will be great.


Offline rambler

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 11:35:44 AM »
Hi SJ,
Could we talk about your European-Russian experience?  Do you have Skype? I am in UK and also sometimes in France. 

Woman: "How do you write women so well?" Melvin: "I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability." Jack Nicholson in As Good as it Gets, 1997.

Offline 55North

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 12:19:11 PM »
As long as one's assiduous in checking the boxes, and maybe use a reliable Moscow-based agency, bringing a Russian wife to the UK is pretty much a few weeks shoe-in, like Kuna.
 
It occurs to me that Norway is the one 'traditional' western country (stretching down to the 'heart' of NATO Europe) that actually borders Russia, and may therefore be extra 'vigilant' in such matters, even though I know it is more 'liberal' with visitor visas for the Ukraine for instance than, say, the UK.

Offline Ade

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 12:55:19 AM »
Hi SJ,
Could we talk about your European-Russian experience?  Do you have Skype? I am in UK and also sometimes in France. 



Yes, I have Skype of course, but, if you have any specific questions it would be better to post them so that others can learn and/or contribute too. There are a bunch of other Europeans here besides myself.

Offline Gylden

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 12:32:35 PM »
Hello SJ,

The last I heard, Norway does not recognize dual citizenship as a rule. However if one can demonstrate extenuating circumstances i.e. financial hardship they will bend that rule too. Most RW I know here have gotten that approved.

Although you have plenty of time to think about it as it takes 7 years for anyone married to a non-Norwegian citizen to be able to apply.

Offline Ade

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2009, 01:32:27 AM »
Hello SJ,

The last I heard, Norway does not recognize dual citizenship as a rule. However if one can demonstrate extenuating circumstances i.e. financial hardship they will bend that rule too. Most RW I know here have gotten that approved.

Although you have plenty of time to think about it as it takes 7 years for anyone married to a non-Norwegian citizen to be able to apply.


Hi, yes, that 7 years rings some bells. My ex and I were married for some years before I got here and they take that into account when it comes to the time line for citizenship so I could have applied after only 5 years if I'd wanted to.

As far as I remember, even if Norway doesn't officially like dual citizenships they have no right to ask someone to give up their current naturalized citizenship when they apply to become a Norwegian citizen, and it will not effect the application either. What they can do though is revoke Norwegian citizenship if someone applies for another citizenship afterwards.

It's not a big deal for us now though as she will have a permanent settlement visa in 3 years and that's just about as good as citizenship anyway. Any kids we will have will have at least dual citizenship, or maybe tri-citizenship if they are born in Russia. ;)

Offline Gylden

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 02:28:12 AM »
Hi SJ,
Your post title is absolutly correct MAZE!!
I don't want to start any argument, my intention is to share information and experiences I have had. Maybe I have been missled.
I have been living here for 11 years soon and when I thought about becomming Norwegian I was told flat out that I must give up my US citizenship.
However you can see in the regulations, if there are special circumstances, like a question of personal safety or extreem hardships, proceedural or economic, UDI can decide to allow it. Also that rule about married time applys only if one of the partners are Norwegian. I decided to just remain an American instead, because I couldn't find any real good reason to be Norwegian really, other that my grandfather was Norsk and it would have some sort of "good feeling".
Anyway here is a link to an english UDI page which is very helpfull. I am pasting in some exerpt from it.   http://www.udi.no/templates/Tema.aspx?id=7394

Work >>Family >>Visa >>Studies >>Citizenship >>Asylum >>In Norwegian Send to a friend   Print  Requirements to obtain Norwegian citizenship by application If you wish to become a Norwegian citizen and do not meet the requirements for acquiring citizenship by notification, you must submit an application. In the following you will find an overview of the requirements for the granting of an application for Norwegian citizenship.

•General requirements to obtain citizenship
•On the residence requirement and the calculation of period of residence
•Concerning the good conduct requirement
•General exemptions from the requirements for Norwegian citizenship

 General requirements to obtain citizenshipIf you have a valid residence permit in Norway, you can apply for Norwegian citizenship. For the application to be granted, you must, among other things, meet the following requirements:
•Be above the age of 12 (does not apply to stateless persons or children for whom citizenship is applied for concurrently with their mother or father, or children with a Norwegian mother or father)
•Have documented or clarified your identity. As a principal rule it is a condition that you provide a passport as proof of your identity. The passport shall be valid.
•Be resident in Norway and intend to continue to live here
•Meet the conditions for a settlement permit (see exemptions below)
•Have stayed in Norway for a total of seven years during the last ten years on permits each of which must have been granted for at least one year (see exemptions below)
•Have completed 300 hours of tuition in the Norwegian language or have documented sufficient skills in Norwegian or Saami (NOTE: Applies to persons aged between 18 and 55, whose applications are submitted after 1 September 2008). For further information, see www.imdi.no.
•Must not have been convicted of a criminal offence or been ordered to undergo enforced psychiatric health treatment or enforced psychiatric care (good conduct requirement)
•Must have been released from your original citizenship unless it automatically expires when you become Norwegian

Work >>Family >>Visa >>Studies >>Citizenship >>Asylum >>In Norwegian Send to a friend   Print  Requirements to obtain Norwegian citizenship by application If you wish to become a Norwegian citizen and do not meet the requirements for acquiring citizenship by notification, you must submit an application. In the following you will find an overview of the requirements for the granting of an application for Norwegian citizenship.

•General requirements to obtain citizenship
•On the residence requirement and the calculation of period of residence
•Concerning the good conduct requirement
•General exemptions from the requirements for Norwegian citizenship

 General requirements to obtain citizenshipIf you have a valid residence permit in Norway, you can apply for Norwegian citizenship. For the application to be granted, you must, among other things, meet the following requirements:
•Be above the age of 12 (does not apply to stateless persons or children for whom citizenship is applied for concurrently with their mother or father, or children with a Norwegian mother or father)
•Have documented or clarified your identity. As a principal rule it is a condition that you provide a passport as proof of your identity. The passport shall be valid.
•Be resident in Norway and intend to continue to live here
•Meet the conditions for a settlement permit (see exemptions below)
•Have stayed in Norway for a total of seven years during the last ten years on permits each of which must have been granted for at least one year (see exemptions below)
•Have completed 300 hours of tuition in the Norwegian language or have documented sufficient skills in Norwegian or Saami (NOTE: Applies to persons aged between 18 and 55, whose applications are submitted after 1 September 2008). For further information, see www.imdi.no.
•Must not have been convicted of a criminal offence or been ordered to undergo enforced psychiatric health treatment or enforced psychiatric care (good conduct requirement)
•Must have been released from your original citizenship unless it automatically expires when you become Norwegian
Remember that you need a valid permit while the application for citizenship is processed. A permit is not valid only because you have applied for citizenship. You therefore need to apply for a renewal of the application at least a month before the permit expires.
On the residence requirement and the calculation of period of residence In order to become a Norwegian citizen, the principle is that you must have resided in Norway for seven years during the last ten years. You must have stayed here on work or residence permits with a duration of at least one year. You must be permanently resident in the country when you apply for Norwegian citizenship and when the application is processed.


Work >>Family >>Visa >>Studies >>Citizenship >>Asylum >>In Norwegian Send to a friend   Print  Requirements to obtain Norwegian citizenship by application If you wish to become a Norwegian citizen and do not meet the requirements for acquiring citizenship by notification, you must submit an application. In the following you will find an overview of the requirements for the granting of an application for Norwegian citizenship.

•General requirements to obtain citizenship
•On the residence requirement and the calculation of period of residence
•Concerning the good conduct requirement
•General exemptions from the requirements for Norwegian citizenship

 General requirements to obtain citizenshipIf you have a valid residence permit in Norway, you can apply for Norwegian citizenship. For the application to be granted, you must, among other things, meet the following requirements:
•Be above the age of 12 (does not apply to stateless persons or children for whom citizenship is applied for concurrently with their mother or father, or children with a Norwegian mother or father)
•Have documented or clarified your identity. As a principal rule it is a condition that you provide a passport as proof of your identity. The passport shall be valid.
•Be resident in Norway and intend to continue to live here
•Meet the conditions for a settlement permit (see exemptions below)
•Have stayed in Norway for a total of seven years during the last ten years on permits each of which must have been granted for at least one year (see exemptions below)
•Have completed 300 hours of tuition in the Norwegian language or have documented sufficient skills in Norwegian or Saami (NOTE: Applies to persons aged between 18 and 55, whose applications are submitted after 1 September 2008). For further information, see www.imdi.no.
•Must not have been convicted of a criminal offence or been ordered to undergo enforced psychiatric health treatment or enforced psychiatric care (good conduct requirement)
•Must have been released from your original citizenship unless it automatically expires when you become Norwegian
Remember that you need a valid permit while the application for citizenship is processed. A permit is not valid only because you have applied for citizenship. You therefore need to apply for a renewal of the application at least a month before the permit expires.
On the residence requirement and the calculation of period of residence In order to become a Norwegian citizen, the principle is that you must have resided in Norway for seven years during the last ten years. You must have stayed here on work or residence permits with a duration of at least one year. You must be permanently resident in the country when you apply for Norwegian citizenship and when the application is processed.
If you were granted a permit before you entered Norway, or if you are a Nordic national, your period of residence will be reckoned from the date on which you came to Norway. If the date is unknown, your period of residence will be reckoned from the date on which you were registered with the police or in the population register, or from the date from which you can document in some other manner that you arrived in the country.
If you were granted a permit after entering Norway, your period of residence will be reckoned from the date on which you applied for a permit. Illegal stays in Norway will not be counted as a period of residence. The period of time between the expiry of a residence or work permit and the submission of a new application shall not be included in the calculation of the period of residence. Where your permit has expired and you wish to apply for a new permit, the period between the expiry and the submission is not counted as a period of residence.
You can spend a total of two months outside Norway in any one calendar year. As long as the total period of time does not exceed two months, the time spent outside Norway has no significance. The period of stay outside Norway shall be regarded as residence in the realm and is not deducted when calculating the period of residence.However, if your stay outside Norway exceeds two months, the entire period of stay outside Norway shall be deducted, not only the period of time exceeding two months.
Exemptions from the residence requirement:

•If you are married to, or are the registered partner or cohabitant of a Norwegian national, the time you have lived in Norway and the total time you have been married, registered partners or cohabitants must be at least seven years. You must have lived in Norway for a total of at least three years during the last ten years. It is a condition that you are still married, registered partners or cohabitants and live together at the time of the decision.


This is the way I understand it to be, but like I said it could be that I was missled, so if you can shed light on something I have missed I would appreciate it.

Maze of all mazes!! :wallbash:

Offline Ade

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2009, 02:59:04 AM »
Hi SJ,
Your post title is absolutly correct MAZE!!
I don't want to start any argument, my intention is to share information and experiences I have had. Maybe I have been missled.
I have been living here for 11 years soon and when I thought about becomming Norwegian I was told flat out that I must give up my US citizenship.
However you can see in the regulations, if there are special circumstances, like a question of personal safety or extreem hardships, proceedural or economic, UDI can decide to allow it. Also that rule about married time applys only if one of the partners are Norwegian. I decided to just remain an American instead, because I couldn't find any real good reason to be Norwegian really, other that my grandfather was Norsk and it would have some sort of "good feeling".
Anyway here is a link to an english UDI page which is very helpfull. I am pasting in some exerpt from it.   http://www.udi.no/templates/Tema.aspx?id=7394
...

This is the way I understand it to be, but like I said it could be that I was missled, so if you can shed light on something I have missed I would appreciate it.

Maze of all mazes!! :wallbash:


No arguments here :)

I'm a little surprised by the "Must have been released from your original citizenship unless it automatically expires when you become Norwegian" and I'm trying to remember where I read that they can't demand you give up previous citizenships. I wouldn't be surprised if this is a little bit of obfuscation on the part of the UDI very much like the "you can only apply for family reunion outside of Norway" when in fact that's definitely not the case at all. I guess the only way of really knowing is to give them a call as their online documents seem to contradict reality sometimes.

Offline Gylden

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2009, 03:29:53 AM »
Yeah all of this obscurity is built in to the regulation I am sure in order to give them some flexibility in decision making. I have never had a negative experience with them though. I have allways tried to prepare myself well and be polite and have experience the same from them as well. I was able to get the visas for my wife and her two kids and all of their residence permits and permanent residence permits without any hitch.
The only problem I had at all is with the center for norsk opplæring. They wanted my wife to pay for "norsk kurs" and I had to be a little tough with the director (as well as I had done my homework on the rules) before he would change his mind.

Offline Ade

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Re: Norway's Immigration Maze
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2009, 04:41:52 AM »
Yeah all of this obscurity is built in to the regulation I am sure in order to give them some flexibility in decision making. I have never had a negative experience with them though. I have allways tried to prepare myself well and be polite and have experience the same from them as well. I was able to get the visas for my wife and her two kids and all of their residence permits and permanent residence permits without any hitch.
The only problem I had at all is with the center for norsk opplæring. They wanted my wife to pay for "norsk kurs" and I had to be a little tough with the director (as well as I had done my homework on the rules) before he would change his mind.

Yes, my experience of the UDI has been the same, it's just a pity that their online information looks complete and authoritative but just isn't.

The main problem I've had is from the immigration department in the local police station; they've been nice enough but ignorant of key facts which put us through some days of high stress when we thought that my wife had to go back to Russia for up to a year while our application was being processed. On the Russian/Norwegian forum that my wife participates in this misinformation has caused no end of problems for couples that have taken the online documentation and police's word for it and have been broken up for the duration of their reunion application. I guess the morale of the story is to be persistent and to double check facts with a real person that is in a position of authority.

As for the language courses; it's PITA you had to fight for that as you'd expect them to know the rules. I phoned this morning about them and was told that they'll send me a form so my wife can start in January.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 04:44:40 AM by SeriouslyJaded »

 

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