I met a girl under special circumstances

[BC]

Nobody but stix answered that question. What does all the silence mean to you BC?

Yes, the silence was deafening.. my guess is either hung up on the matter or lacking ways to express their thoughts in this PC world.

if you care if your woman had been with a black man before you, you are either insecure (and susceptible to stereotypes) or racist, what else is there to say

penis envy  

Really though, the intent of my prod was to show that drawing conclusions based on sexual behavior alone is not really helpful in the long run.

[jdk1963]

Not sure the men who pay for sex are the best at performing sex.  

 

Every man on this board has paid for sex.  In one form or another you pay for it!

[Journeyman]

Interesting thread.  I am coming in late (page 22 of the thread), but thought I’d add an observation or two of my own.   I agree with all the caveats, but want to emphasize the idea that you can never know about anybody’s capacity for this or that simply based upon a stereotype, nor a claim of changing one’s ways.  Here are a couple of examples of this issue that come to my mind for me (and my wife).

When I was in law school, I became acquainted with a woman classmate.  She was intelligent, sensitive, respectful, and somebody I grew to appreciate as a friend.   She had a steady boyfriend, and our friendship was always only that of classmates and friends.  After nearly 3 years of acquaintance, she told me one day that she had worked as a prostitute for about 4 years in her early twenties.  She said that there were many bad aspects about it, but that it had also met some unresolved emotional needs that she had growing up.  Nevertheless, after four years as a prostitute she was also able to complete college and then obtain admission to law school.  She finished law school with good grades, was on the law review, passed the bar exam, disclosed to the bar admissions committee everything about her past (even though she was never arrested for it), was admitted to practice law, and began a successful law practice in family law, did a lot of pro bono work for abused women, and eventually becoming an administrative law judge and respected member of the legal community.  She also got married some years later to a pretty average “nice guy,” had a child, and is now living a very comfortable, productive, and honorable life.  That, it seems, is an example of somebody who could truly put her past behind her, and get back into the mainstream, and was apparently able to deal effectively with the emotional issues that made possible her earlier decisions to get involved in prostitution as a young woman. 

ON THE OTHER HAND, I will now pass on some observations that my wife is sharing with me by phone during her current visit back in Ukraine.  My wife’s family lives in a middle-size city in Ukraine.  She lived there for over 30 years, and knows a lot of people there still living there.  Some (my wife says many) of the young women from the city left for “opportunities” in western Europe during the past 10 years.  Italy seems to have been a favorite destination for many of these young ladies.  Most of them obtain entry to Italy via an intermediary who arranged for them to work in a bar and entertain the clientele.  Some were able to make a small income by just hustling drinks, but many others found the money available in prostitution to be too tempting.  However, the work (whether selling drinks or prostitution) seems to be a stepping stone for virtually all of these women.  Their strategic objective was to find a man to marry who would provide a better life, and otherwise be a “good husband and father.”  Most all of these girls did find husbands that way, left prostitution, and some have been married for years, and have established families with children.  According to my wife, most of them are reporting to now be in good, “happy” marriages with good men.  Many on this board have been hearing such stories for years now.   So, is that a happy ending?  Read on.  My wife is now relaying to me that MOST of these women, having returned back to Ukraine for a summer vacation to see family, are now observed to be having affairs with one or more Ukrainian men.  So, yes, it would seem to be the same old story about a woman marrying one man for financial security, but obtaining sexual pleasure with other men while married.  Nothing new about that, nor their participation in the seemingly rather common practice among Ukrainian spouses of having affairs.  When I told my wife that probably 50% or more of American husbands and wives cheat on each other, she just rolled her eyes and said “That’s nothing!”, explaining to me how prevalent cheating is in Ukraine. 

I have heard some truly tragic stories in Ukraine where the situation for a woman is so extreme (a genuine survival issue) that it would be understandable that she might turn to prostitution as a means of escape.  They are somewhat similar to another personal acquaintance I have with an American woman who also experienced such a desperate situation in the US many years ago.  This American woman had certain mental limitations (unable to do much more than simple, menial work), got married young, had two kids, after which time her husband abandoned her.  Her original family was a mess, and could not provide help.  She did not have the mental horsepower to navigate her way through life, fell through the “social safety nets” provided by local government, and was eventually lured into an opportunity to make some good money quickly.  We all probably know or know of somebody like that.  That situation I could understand as possibly justifying (maybe “explaining” is a better word than “justifying”) working in prostitution.

To provide a little balance, I will now focus on an example involving a certain man's character.  A few years ago, I had a client for a short time (until I got to know him a little better).  He was an entrepreneur, a rather robust salesman who had, he said, become a born-again Christian a number of years previously.  A few days after meeting him, he “admitted” to me that he used to be “kind of a bad guy,” and that he “had to admit that he hadn’t quite entirely gotten victory over that quite yet.”  He routinely waived his Christianity in other people’s face, loudly proclaimed “Praise Jesus!” at every opportunity, attended Bible study and church regularly, insisted on prayer at every meal, participated in numerous Christian groups and activities, and then proceeded to mislead and lie to hundreds of his customers about his products and services – who then lost millions, including one elderly lady I heard about who lost her entire life’s savings.  When things started to heat up, the entrepreneur went into hiding.  Now, I should say that I do know many, many good Christian people.  This guy was not one of them.  Moreover, it is very unlikely that a person’s core character traits will change, no matter what they say or do.  This guy was a very competent liar, and probably a sociopath.  Dissembling for a sociopath is standard fare.  How somebody becomes a sociopath is somewhat understood, and the verdict is fairly clear that they will never change.  In that respect, the psychology of some women is such that, whether officially a prostitute or not, they can say and do anything to look and appear to be good company (and "sell" themselves in that way very competently), but all they want is your money, and that will probably never change.

Just how and why somebody goes into and stays in prostitution is the key question.

The point I am making with these examples is the same point that so many other posters on this thread have been making in various ways.  The basic question about having a relationship or marriage with an ex-prostitute all depends upon their individual character.  My law school classmate was able to resolve her issues and truly put prostitution behind her.  I tend to think that she had always had a decent underlying character, but drifted into prostitution as a result of some issues.  The American woman had mental limitations and came from a family that explained a lot of her misfortune -- and she had few real choices in life.  However, these Ukrainian women described by my wife were not able to remain loyal or honest to their new marriage, even when they had the opportunity to meet and marry good men.  Their response to their original situation in Ukraine was to prostitute themselves to obtain the socio-economic status that they wanted.  They were usually not in a desperate situation, but wanted a higher socio-economic status.  Their loyalty to their new husbands was limited, as they were originally (via marriage) a means to an end for the women.  A few posters on this thread above used the term “compartmentalization.”  It would seem that these ladies play the part of “the good wife” in Italy, but then have no moral compunction about cheating (repeatedly, and in broad daylight, as my wife describes it), when in Ukraine.

So I would also agree with most of the broader caveats mentioned on this thread.  That is, unless you have compelling evidence that a woman’s character is such that it permits her to truly and completely change her ways, or that she had somehow never largely regarded people as primarily a means to an end, it is best to assume that her character will not change – and to avoid her as a marriage prospect.  How does one investigate that aspect of her character or personal history?  I would think that it would take a lot of time and a lot of evidence – whatever that would be in the individual case, I don’t know.  Still, considering the odds of both her being able to change and also obtaining sufficient evidence of it in a reasonable period of time, I would think that success in such an endeavor would be a long shot. 

In the case posed by the OP, if a prostitute seems highly intelligent, charming, and otherwise able to seemingly be able to find some kind of honorable employment or receive help from friends or relatives if she’s fallen on hard times, I would then think that the character issue is of much greater concern (like the ex-prostitute Ukrainian wives returning to Ukraine this summer from Italy for a little holiday – and quickly indulging themselves).  As we all know, some people can be very friendly and charming, but their hearts can be quite closed, and will forever remain so – in which case they are quite capable of treating everybody as a means to an end.  As pretty and intelligent and charming as some prostitutes or ex-prostitutes can be, again, as others have similarly cautioned, I would recommend a long and thorough course of due diligence before making any kind of commitment.

[BC]

Journeyman,

Enjoyed your essay.

Applying Occam's Razor, (maybe even misusing it) I find:

1. By nature, men and women enjoy sex, regardless of how they get it.
2. Many married partners, one or both enjoy extramarital sex - either known or unknown to the other partner.
3. Those that don't 'fool around' probably at least fantasize about it (will proly get bashed for that).
4. When discussing prostitution, some, maybe many equate prostitution with promiscuity.

Since the percentages of those indulging extramarital sex are so high anyway, it's probably quite difficult to determine with any accuracy whether there is a correlation between prostitution and a couple remaining faithful to each other.

Lets say that at the very least the waters are quite clouded regardless of past professions or forms of sexual expression.

Prostitution and extramarital sex is not illegal in most countries, even not immoral unless individual or group values are considered, so in the end I guess it's up to the couple involved to figure things out for themselves.

[Journeyman]

BC,

I think I agree with all your points.  However, your response to my “essay” does prompt me to be sure that I am clear on what I am NOT asserting.  I am NOT asserting that prostitution and promiscuity (or an extramarital affair) are either the same in terms of motivations or morality.  Certainly they are not.  Perhaps the ONLY common factor is sexual intercourse.  Even the categories of prostitution and promiscuity (or affairs) are composed of many different “types.”  My only point by giving examples in various categories of activity/behavior is that the basic, underlying character of people is unlikely to change.  Nothing new there.  That underlying character is, of course, difficult to figure out without having a LOT of time to interface with someone on various and fairly deep levels.  And that is rather difficult to do via the type of courtships possible for men from western countries meeting women in the FSU.  Chances are that the OP would not have that kind of opportunity, and would be incurring a large risk of disappointment or worse if he were to pursue a relationship with this particular woman.

And, yes, you are right, BC, that in the end, every couple will have to try to follow their hearts and heads, and figure it out for themselves.  Happy endings are always a possibility.

PS.  Occam's Razor is almost always a good rule of thumb.  But, just like in a courtroom trial, it is a challenging task to get all the facts in hand, to which one then applies the rule.

[BillyB]

 if a prostitute seems highly intelligent, charming, and otherwise able to seemingly be able to find some kind of honorable employment or receive help from friends or relatives if she’s fallen on hard times, I would then think that the character issue is of much greater concern

Exactly. If a woman has fallen on hard times and could receive help from friends or relatives but instead chooses to sell her body, she has character issues even if she says she's looking for a good man for marriage. I would not want a woman that kind of woman.

If a woman has fallen on hard times and has no friends or family to help her and resorts to prostitution as a desperate act to put food in her stomach, I wouldn't want a woman like that either. I wouldn't judge her character based off her profession in this case. Survival, any way she can, is the most important thing for her at the moment. I do understand that. I'd judge her character based off the fact she lived most her life failing to form good relationships with good friends any good family she may have that could help her when she's down. Maybe she never helped anyone in life but herself and that's a poor reflection of her character.

[Vaughn]

Good grief - I'd thought I'd read it all, and then - up pops "special circumstances" ?

Call me close-minded, but the revelation would be the death knell for any future, unless
one tosses out the need such frivolous ideals as trust, security and dependability.

Richard Gere and Julia Roberts starred in Pretty Woman as mentioned way back -
a Garry Marshall film. Garry's films are feel-good fare with happy endings despite
all odds. Odds are good to excellent that any romance rooted in this sort of mire
lack prospect for success. Unless - she's truly turned off the meter and HE never
had any idea it was once running fulltime. Even then - he dwells in ignorance, and
she in secrecy - a shallow foundation for a fragile house of cards.