Kiev...the "fallback" plan

[rjd400]

Hello again folks.  Nothing set in stone, but it's looking like I MAY be heading over to the Ukraine in early/mid December, and for just four days (four days in Kiev).  Right now it's just in the "talking" stages, but I'm the type who plans ahead, particularly for this.  The gal and I had discussed me coming over in January, when there would be a two week block of time free for her.  But she, quite frankly (which I appreciated), said that should there not be a "connection", two weeks would be a little long (I guess meaning either for her to put up with me, or me to be solo :-).  Maybe I'm being naive, but I think that actually makes sense.  Plus I think we're coming to the point where we're both getting eager to actually talk face to face (phone conversations have been difficult to say the least...so many bad connections) and want to "get it over".

She's not from Kiev, but thought it would be better since there more to do.  She said she would meet me there (it's a 7 hour train ride from her hometown).  She said if I really wanted to go to her home town we could.  But in reality, "just in case" of a worse scenario, since this is my first trip, I think I'd rather be in Kiev.  Just sounds more "American Traveler" friendly. 

Now, I know this plan may be flawed, and I'll appreciate any constructive criticism.  But as of right now, I think it's something that seems comfortable for both of us....

So I'm looking for suggestions on the tourist aspect of Kiev (I mean real tourism, not dating).  I'm sure I could go to any travel site and get some, but figured I'd ask the group here about the fun and "must see" places there.  Both with someone and, in case, alone.

Any suggestions?  And again, constructive criticism and warnings are always appreciated, but please, take it easy on me, okay?

[Shadow]

St Michaels church and the Pechersk Lavra are on top of the list of ' must see'  places.
If you like old military material, there is a military museum nearby.

Do not visit the zoo unless they have rebuild it, it was kind of depressing.
The outdoor museum will probably not be fun in December, and for the state of the parks I just wonder.

If you are in good physical condition, Kiev center is not very big and most places can be done on foot, again if the weather allows. The subway is an alternative that is also worth visiting to see the marble stations.

You will not be bored in Kiev, and rent an apartment with 2 bedrooms. They are usually in good condition.

[groovlstk]

rjk400, you seem to be going about this in a smart and proper manner. Some guys may quibble w/meeting in Kiev, but I think it's wise - particularly since the woman you plan to meet is being upfront about wanting an out if you're not what she expects, and vice versa. Four days is plenty of time to know whether you want to continue the relationship and make plans for a longer meeting, while you'll also be getting your feet wet in one of the few Westerner-friendly cities in the FSU.

[SMS60]

4 days would not be alot of time to kill if things did not click. This small amount of time should be the least of your worries.

Know one can predict what the chemistry will be at first meeting but sometimes you can have a good idea if you are communicating on a regular basis and paying attention.

RJK,  You are writing, talking, ect.............. What do you think would cause the initial meeting to go sour?? Whats causing you and her to question the meeting?

Very hard questions to answer.  What is your gut telling you? Maybe you should be communicating with more women?? Possible??

There is something causing you to hesitate? You have no control over her actions or the way she will react but why would she bail?? Why are you not confident about this??

Nothing wrong with being patient and proceding with caution.

Some questions to ask yourself.

[rjd400]

rjk400, you seem to be going about this in a smart and proper manner. Some guys may quibble w/meeting in Kiev, but I think it's wise - particularly since the woman you plan to meet is being upfront about wanting an out if you're not what she expects, and vice versa. Four days is plenty of time to know whether you want to continue the relationship and make plans for a longer meeting, while you'll also be getting your feet wet in one of the few Westerner-friendly cities in the FSU.

Whew..thanks.  I was waiting for the landslide of harsh criticism, so one vote of confidence that I'm not completely out of line here is nice to have. 
I'd have thought more of the fact that she wanted to meet in Kiev except that 1- her mom doesn't live in her current home town, but about 2 hours from there (not in contact with dad), and 2- her one sibling who does live there is having some issues (marital) himself.  In addition, as I mentioned, she is quite a bit younger than I, and I'm sure, right now, she would feel as uncomfortable as I would bringing the other person around friends, with us really just meeting each other for the first time.

Two things I am wondering.  Obviously it would only be proper to have two separate rooms, and I would expect to cover that.  I would also assume that I should take care of the train fare? 

(FYI, she has not asked for or mentioned about anything monetary issues(so far).  Good thing, after being at this forum for a few days now, I think had she done so, I would have logged off, closed the browser, powered down the PC, wrapped it up, and thrown it out the window (just to make 110% sure I couldn't get scammed)  )

[rjd400]

4 days would not be alot of time to kill if things did not click. This small amount of time should be the least of your worries.

Know one can predict what the chemistry will be at first meeting but sometimes you can have a good idea if you are communicating on a regular basis and paying attention.

RJK,  You are writing, talking, ect.............. What do you think would cause the initial meeting to go sour?? Whats causing you and her to question the meeting?

Very hard questions to answer.  What is your gut telling you? Maybe you should be communicating with more women?? Possible??

There is something causing you to hesitate? You have no control over her actions or the way she will react but why would she bail?? Why are you not confident about this??

Nothing wrong with being patient and proceding with caution.

Some questions to ask yourself.

SMS,
Right now, neither of us are really questioning the meeting so much.  On the contrary, I FEEL like we both are very eager to meet, but I think we are both nervous.  When we started talking about me coming over, October came up, and there were two reasons is wasn't good.  First, the beginning is a busy time at work.  Then my brother is getting married at the end, and I'm the best man.  Plus, to be honest, I guess I just want a little more chat and talk time.  I figure, if this is a scam, the more we talk/chat, the more likely there will be a slip up in a story, event, something like that.  I think I'm getting a little paranoid...LOL.

November wasn't good for her.  Plus, I'd like to be home for Thanksgiving.

So that leaves early/mid December.

I think the only thing that could cause the first meeting to go sour would only be if she was a complete scam artist.  But I don't get that feeling from her, for the most part.  In that worse case scenario, I guess I'll take in Kiev solo for 4 days.  I'm sure it wouldn't be that bad.

My biggest concern is that fact that she's so much younger than I (16 years).  I read conflicting stories as to whether or not FSUW are less concerned with big age gaps or not.  Don't get me wrong (and I'm not bragging here), I'm a very healthy, fairly well built, and (it's been said, and not just by my mom) good looking guy, but still and all, I'm a 41 year old guy.

Her biggest concern (from what she told me) is whether or not I'm serious about her, and coming over there.

-Bob

[Shadow]

Two things I am wondering.  Obviously it would only be proper to have two separate rooms, and I would expect to cover that.  I would also assume that I should take care of the train fare? 

Regarding the two separate rooms I have already mentioned getting the apartment. It is much more 'confidential'  as a hotel, and it leaves her full privacy if needed.

As for the train fare, you can offer to reimburse her. She will probably refuse. If the meeting goes well, be prepared to slip something in her luggage, to prove you are a generous guy without hurting her pride.

[rjd400]

Regarding the two separate rooms I have already mentioned getting the apartment. It is much more 'confidential'  as a hotel, and it leaves her full privacy if needed.

As for the train fare, you can offer to reimburse her. She will probably refuse. If the meeting goes well, be prepared to slip something in her luggage, to prove you are a generous guy without hurting her pride.

Shadow,
I wasn't sure if the apartment with two rooms was appropriate.  But I see what you mean about the lack of confidentiality with a hotel.  I think I might ask her opinion on it.

Thanks,

[Vaughn]

Sounds like a healthy backup plan to me, rjd....   have a great time.

I am reminded of a pact my wife and I shared in the very beginning.

"If either of us feels uncomfortable when we meet - for any reason -
we both reserve the right to walk away unquestioned and without
argument." We felt comfortable with that agreement.

Just to show her I was a gentleman, I told her to plan to call her
Mama to let her know she was in safe hands. I imagined her parents
must have been quite worried knowing she met me in another locale
as you plan to do.

We stayed in Moscow at a grand hotel, the Sovietsky. My single was
on floor 3, hers was on floor 4. We were greeted and treated with
respect, and never second guessed our choice.

[Shadow]

We stayed in Moscow at a grand hotel, the Sovietsky. My single was
on floor 3, hers was on floor 4. We were greeted and treated with
respect, and never second guessed our choice.

Had it been Moscow, I would have preferred a hotel. For reasons I can not explain as they are completely subjective, I would prefer apartments in Kiev.

[Mars]

I will be the dissenter here, or the one to throw cold water on your plan.

My biggest concern is with your plan for a 4 day visit.  I presume you are coming from USA, but not sure.  I have made this trip USA to Kyiv several times.  There is a 7 time zone difference.  Medical literature tells us that it takes one day to adapt to each single time zone change.  OK, so the adrenalin helps some here for a guy going to see a gal.  But still, you aren't going to be 100% for a few days, and then you are gone.

Also, a 4 day visit from USA to Kyiv isn't efficient from a monetary standpoint.
The travel part of the expense is the same no matter if it is a 2 day visit or a two week or two month visit.
Go for two weeks and amortize the $1200 travel cost over two weeks; go for 4 days and WOW $300 bucks per day.

I strongly suggest you go back to your two week plan, or even longer.  But, at the same time, start corresponding with a much larger pool of women.  Plan to meet as many as possible.

Now, if you are really from Western Europe and are facing only a 2-3 hour flight, then that is a different story and different parameters come into play.

And don't be fooled that she hasn't yet asked for any travel money.  Sometimes they wait until you have already committed by purchasing your plane ticket.

I have had several come from distant cities to visit me in Kyiv.  Most all took the bus or train and the cost was less than $25 or so round trip.  Had one gal though, that with just a few days to go said she needed $200 bucks each way for taxi.  No way Jose!!

[docetae]

I have done several time for work the 4 days plan in Kiev (from Montreal) and there was no issue. The impact for me was on the second evening. The key is to resist to sleep and do not go to bed before 21h and even if you wake up at 4 am, stay in bed and try to sleep.
One time this second night done, you will enjoy fully the stay.

[LAman]

I go along with mars.....4 days is not long enough time for several reasons. I am 10 hour difference from Kiev and it takes me about 3 days for my body to fit into new time zone( sleep through night ~10-11 to 7-8).... first night you cannot sleep.
I have done the meeting girl in another city thing and it didn't work out and I was stuck for a week( she flew in ).
We knew on first day( doesn't take very long) we wouldn't become serious. We had an apt and I wanted to go off on my own but being the gentleman I am I spent the week with the girl( movies, museums, dinners). Last time I ever did that for first meetings. I would rather go to her hometown then if it didn't work out, then I could leave on my own without a conscience. I am of the thought to plan to meet many girls with the one I thought best match first then go down the line. Some would think I was not serious but I put a lot of weight on first meetings. I know at home you always met girl first THEN get to know her. There has to be mutual attraction and that only comes in person.
Rjd....is this the girl you were having second thoughts about in a previous thread?

[Daveman]

Sounds pretty good so far... you can go with a two room flat. It's a bit easier than two separate flats if things go well.. if she doesn't like you, she'll be catching a train back home anyway.  Two flats for four days isn't that big of a deal money wise, but it is easier. Now, if you take one look at her in person and think "yeeeek! you ain't the same as your photo!" you can hide her body in the wall of the second room.  :evil:  But in that case, really, you need to decide ahead of time what you'll do. Will you be gentlemanly and spend the time with her anyway? Will you sacrifice a chicken to invoke the intervention of the gods? Or will you be up front and tell her the truth and try to meet others?  In that case, perhaps two separate flats would be easier... so.. it's a long commute for a first date, ain't it? whew...

[Gator]

rjd400,

I have followed your exact plan as part of my travels:  flew into Kiev and spent 4 days with a UW who had taken an overnight train from a provincial city.  

The difference was that I continued my trip by going to other cities as part of a WMVM.  You, instead, will return to America.

Jet lag never bothered me and I am into my 60s.  I can function on minimum sleep and a power nap or two.  YMMV.

One sure way to spoil a good trip is to become paranoid about scams.  Instead, relax and have some fun.  Don't try to interpret everything she does.  Go with the flow.  More than likely anything that confuses you is nothing more than two strangers getting to know each other compounded by differences in culture and language.

A 16-year age gap is acceptable to some women, while other women would have a problem.  It is her personal decision (and yours too), so don't worry about it now or then.

Don't get a hotel.  An apartment is less expensive and more fun, and UW typically prefer visiting a man in an apartment rather than a hotel.

Four days is enough to see everything in Kiev.  Your friend will have many ideas, so talk about it with her, not us.

[Daveman]

Jet lag never bothered me and I am into my 60s.  I can function on minimum sleep and a power nap or two.  YMMV.

Gator,

Pass some of that Flyagra this way, would ya? Man, I'm like a stoned zombie for 2-3 days every single time I go...

[rjd400]

LAman,
Yes, this is the girl.  Not to slight anything said to me, as I welcome all the great advice I've gotten here, but I think I started to read WAY too many horror stories (here and elsewhere).  It got to the point where every misspoke word, or misplaced punctuation mark she made had me thinking there was something suspicious going on.  We discussed both of our concerns/fears and I am feeling much more positive now.  Like another member said, it's just a pen pal right now, so I don't need to be so weary.  And like I said, in the worst case scenario (let's say she doesn't even show up in Kiev), I have four days to explore Kiev by myself.  Not so bad.

Daveman,
We've exchanged several photos of each other.  Recent, and they are not professional (they are of her doing stuff).  So I think, even if she's off by 25%, I'd still be a happy guy.  However, should it turn out to be bad, I would do "the right thing" an tough out the four days.  I know it sounds cliche, but I've dated gals who probably were not considered "lookers" but were awesome people, and I would think it never hurts to make a new friend.

Gator,
That's exactly what I'm going to do.  I'm going to relax and have a nice vacation.  As an added bonus, I hope that I will meet this gal.  If not, I'm still going to have a nice vacation.  Of course, I'm not going to let myself be duped into something silly (monetarily).  But I'm going to just take it for what it is.  A vacation, hopefully with a nice gal accompanying me, and if something connects, all the better.

I'm not concerned about jet lag.  When I came back from Tokyo last year, I intentionally kept myself up the trip back, then went to sleep at the "normal" time here (I was exhausted by then).  Slept like a rock.  Was a bit groggy on the first day, but after that, I was feeling pretty good.  (I think this is what docetae was saying)

Thanks guys...

[GoodOlBoy]

Hey Rjd400.

Looks like you have done your homework!

Four days is plenty of time to answer most of your questions and to find out if there is "chemistry" between the two of you.

Hell, when GOB met his wife in Greece, he knew right away he had hit the lottery!! :evil:

On the other hand, I think it took Marina a "little longer" to come around.

Like Gator said, make sure you relax and enjoy yourself.

Good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for in Kiev. 

Make sure to file a TR when you get back.


GOB


BTW....16 years difference (41/25) is a stretch, but workable.

[groovlstk]

During my search I made 3-day weekend trips to Poland and Kiev. Like Gator, I never had problems with jetlag. If you can afford it, go for it. 

[Kievman]

Shadow,
I wasn't sure if the apartment with two rooms was appropriate. 

Just to advise you when booking an apartment in Kiev. 2 rooms means 2 rooms, 1 bedroom and 1 living room.