"IMB-T" : International Marriage Broker-Trafficker

[Admin]

Big mistake on my part. Sorry Dan. I thought you owned "The Good Wife" agency. The one with the cheese cake artwork of sexy 50's housewives. Owning an agency and offering advertising to competing agencies like EM would be a conflict of interest but one I thought you were living with. It is not unethical if you did.

Not a problem Dave. I just wanted to clarify. Actually, www.GoodWife.com is a part of our network and it is NOT an agency either. It is an information and advertising portal with the most comprehensive directory listing of agencies around the globe. It is also one of the oldest sites on the 'net (started in 1997) for this niche and probably THE most popular in terms of 'Google juice' pertaining to searches related to international dating.

Just FYI

- Dan

[Steamer]

This just shows what happens when you don't treat women nicely; they get law degrees and try to have all men arrested.

[Admin]

This just shows what happens when you don't treat women nicely; they get law degrees and try to have all men arrested.

Just gotta say . . .

 

Thanks,

- Dan

[acctBill]

I've known Filipinas who were paid to marry Chinese men.  The going rate was $50,000.  In at least two cases I know of, Chinese gangsters were involved, and the woman was not paid, and threatened with death if she tried to do anything.  
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/10/12/15666791.html

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/10/13/15676206.html

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/Runaway+Grooms+Indian+brides+abandoned+expat+husbands/4038788/story.html#ixzz19cN9zNY2

Boethius none of your links mentioned Filipinas being paid to marry Chinese men or Chinese gangsters. 

[Maxx2]

It appears that "the Good Wife" is a message board and not a marriage agency. I have so little interest in marriage agencies all do is give the first page a quick glance and occasionally look at an attractive woman in one of the featured profiles. I must be losing testosterone.

About your assessment of the 38% not proving we are abusive. The assessment that we are abusive is based on the 38%. If you look at this video at  2:42  Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D) Washington DC  says:

"What bothers me though is... first though a comment on American men or at that segment of American men... we have to watch out... this is a marriage relationship that people don't... quote regulate that. It is only now that.. I find it surprising though that I find surprising that I would not have thought in the beginning that these would be men who were necessarily violent. That they were looking for some subservient women. I thought "maybe they found some". Because they find some desperate women. But now we got some facts.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8282596400667044072&q=mail+order+brides&hl=en#

It is obvious to me Eleanor was getting educated. That examples of AM with foreign brides were taken out of the 38% and shown to her along with some sensational cases such as Sheridan, King and Fox. Who might be educating her? Who do you think?

Men who marry foreign women are stigmatised. You can hear numerous examples of that in the video above. And we are not going to get a balanced view of who we really are by those that do it to us. There will be a misuse of statistics to demonize us. Saying everyone is doing what the 38% are doing/did. Just listen to the video. I have believed this since I had started my endeavor more than 10 years ago that some of the finest men I know marry foreign women. They do it because they want to give a better life to those that they love. It is not just "White knight syndrome" but it is the natural desire to support the women you love. It's wired in us and it is a good thing.  

Please look at the video above. It is chilling

[Maxx2]

It appears that "the Good Wife" is a message board and not a marriage agency.

It appears I might even have that wrong    or do I? I'll go look...

[Admin]

It appears I might even have that wrong    or do I? I'll go look...

Yep - it is not accurate. GoodWife.com does NOT host a forum. For a VERY brief time a few years ago the message forum at Planet-Love was moved to GoodWife, but that was brief and long ago. For all intents and purposes, GoodWife.com has ALWAYS been an information and advertising portal containing the largest directory of agencies around the globe. It has also been cited more times in academic and media publications than any other site in this niche of the internet, and has even found its way into reference in Congressional testimony - in addition to being cited in the article posted at the beginning of this topic.

- Dan

[Admin]

About your assessment of the 38% not proving we are abusive. The assessment that we are abusive is based on the 38%. If you look at this video at  2:42  Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D) Washington DC  says:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8282596400667044072&q=mail+order+brides&hl=en#

It is obvious to me Eleanor was getting educated. That examples of AM with foreign brides were taken out of the 38% and shown to her along with some sensational cases such as Sheridan, King and Fox. Who might be educating her? Who do you think?

Men who marry foreign women are stigmatised. You can hear numerous examples of that in the video above. And we are not going to get a balanced view of who we really are by those that do it to us. There will be a misuse of statistics to demonize us. Saying everyone is doing what the 38% are doing/did. Just listen to the video. I have believed this since I had started my endeavor more than 10 years ago that some of the finest men I know marry foreign women. They do it because they want to give a better life to those that they love. It is not just "White knight syndrome" but it is the natural desire to support the women you love. It's wired in us and it is a good thing.  

Please look at the video above. It is chilling

Dave,

You are confusing me. I made reference to 38% based on my quick review of the Survey of Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce we conducted a while back. Because you seemed to be positing a hypothesis that US abuse stats are skewed because US law allows for an immigrant spouse to self-petition, I wanted to test that with the hard data we collected in the survey. If your hypothesis were accurate, one might expect to see a percentage of divorced women whose ex-spouse is a US citizen and claiming Abuse among the primary factors in their divorce (therefore she would be eligible to self-petition based on an abuse claim - whether real or bogus) to be HIGHER than where the divorced women has an ex-spouse from other countries. My quick review of the data does NOT support this hypothesis.

Where is YOUR "38%" number coming from? Are you using the % I just gave you - or is there a different source?

- Dan

[dbneeley]

Dave,

Your post motivated me to do a quick check on your hypothesis that the US laws allowing self-petition is the 'driver' behind Abuse claims in the US.

Do you recall the Survey of Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce we commissioned a couple of years back? (ref -- http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p01.html)

While this is the most extensive survey of its type I have seen, great care must be taken to keep in context the fact that it is a survey of people who have self-selected--those who were "interested" in participating, which is a distinct subset of all those who have engaged in these marriages.

While it could be quite representative, on the other hand the confidence factor in applying it to the population as a whole may be somewhat low.

In other words, take it with a grain of salt.

Of course, those such as Ms. Kim ignore those who are happily married and thus make no claims of abuse nor who seek divorce. Thus, there are no accurate figures about how many abuse cases there may be as a function of all international marriages. Again, as in all statistical methods, the GIGO principle definitely applies--the results are only as good as the input data.

David

[Shadow]

Instead of the suggested permanent residence I would believe a turn to the European model is to be preferred. In most of the EU states (Schengen to be precise) there is equality between married and unmarried partnership.
When a visa request arrives proof of a relationship has to be provided for it to be approved, and a number of countries require a basic level of their national language.
However once the visa is granted it is not conditional on marriage within any limit of time.
There is the condition that the visa is granted based on the relationship with an European citizen, which in case of an end to the relationshiop within 3 years can cause the visa to be withdrawn. However there are a number of possibilities for someone to obtain a non-conditional visa should this happen, provided they are not to be a liability to the State where they reside.

The document shows a very dark future for the IMB companies, and as the people concerned are a relative small group they might be powerless unless some new initiatives arise. Somehow it seems that there is a xenophobia rising, it is getting very close to regarding all foreign immigrants as possible terrorists.

[Admin]

While this is the most extensive survey of its type I have seen, great care must be taken to keep in context the fact that it is a survey of people who have self-selected--those who were "interested" in participating, which is a distinct subset of all those who have engaged in these marriages.

While it could be quite representative, on the other hand the confidence factor in applying it to the population as a whole may be somewhat low.

In other words, take it with a grain of salt.

True enough. It is among the things looking back, I wish we might have improved upon. At the time of preparation of the survey the issue (possible bias) of self-selection was one of the issues discussed, and it was recognized that there was no other reasonable mechanism for gathering the requisite data. The focus became on gathering a HUGE number of responses as the means to improve the quality and its inferential value. As I came to understand it, statistical significance of results can be achieved with a small fraction of the number of responses we received, and the gathering of large numbers of responses was only warranted due to the process used to attract participants.

We also acknowledged with publication that improvements could be made to the methodology and results - and openly invited/encouraged others to do so. To this point, I do not believe any more credible stats have been produced or initiated by anyone or any organization - though I/we continue to welcome and encourage those and are willing to assist in any way possible.

- Dan

[Boethius]

Boethius none of your links mentioned Filipinas being paid to marry Chinese men or Chinese gangsters. 

The links were in response to Misha's post.  The story about Filipinas is anecdotal.  I've known women who have done this.

[Misha]

The links were in response to Misha's post.  The story about Filipinas is anecdotal.  I've known women who have done this.

Some of the cases that have been publicized in recent months involved women who sponsored husbands from India and were clearly marriages of convenience:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/11/07/david-mckie-marriages-of-convenience.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/07/16/immigration-marriage-fraud541.html

In the latter case, the woman appealed the CIC's decision that rejected her husband's application for permanent residence.

[Maxx2]

Hello Dan

I have been doing my own "survey" for the past 7 years. It started in August of 2003 when I had a meeting with the retired INS District Director on Minnesota, North and South Dakota. We had a conversation about this whole abuse claims for a green card phenomenon. An epidemic as he called it and one he had warned Arlington was going to happen if they instituted VAWA as they were doing it into INS procedure. My education or "survey" went from there with my involvement in the cases of many of the men from the forums and elsewhere who contacted me or I them. I was however getting biased and skewed data for my "survey". It wasn't until I traveled out East with all my camera equipment and started hearing all the other cases, the other side so to speak, that my "survey" became more accurate. It finally fit. Mainly the other side consisted of those of deserted rejected American women, abused immigrant women, AM/RW families that ended in divorce without abuse claims being made plus all the other happy families that are united and working together. I involved myself with these cases and with what I heard from immigration and divorce attorneys and INS officials of various types I formed my own survey of the likelihood of this or that happening and the reasons why they do. I will admit there is nothing methodical and scientific in my approach in my reaching the conclusions I do. It is just what we do around here with everything when we hash things out. Hearing this and that and reaching conclusions. The exception is when a survey is taken to gather date in a more scientific manner. It would seem this would be the more logical way to reach a proper assessment of the truth. Unfortunately if the survey does not ask the right questions and certain important options are left off then the conclusions taken from this data will be inaccurate. I seen this on a survey here. I didn't want to say anything because I figured I would be accused of being biased by even mentioning this missing option. I reached this conclusion because of hearing  outlandish statements by prominent members here that such a possibility is remote to the extreme. Only I am hearing this remoteness all the time and with all the INS and attorneys I am talking to. People want to believe certain things and I am sure people will say the same thing about me. If the latter was true then why would I post videos that argue their point and what is perceived as not mine? BTW some of the videos argue for one side and some make points for the other side. My conclusion is neither side is made up of all devils or all angels.

[Admin]

Hello Dan

I have been doing my own "survey" for the past 7 years. It started in August of 2003 when I had a meeting with the retired INS District Director on Minnesota, North and South Dakota. We had a conversation about this whole abuse claims for a green card phenomenon. An epidemic as he called it and one he had warned Arlington was going to happen if they instituted VAWA as they were doing it into INS procedure. My education or "survey" went from there with my involvement in the cases of many of the men from the forums and elsewhere who contacted me or I them. I was however getting biased and skewed data for my "survey". It wasn't until I traveled out East with all my camera equipment and started hearing all the other cases, the other side so to speak, that my "survey" became more accurate. It finally fit. Mainly the other side consisted of those of deserted rejected American women, abused immigrant women, AM/RW families that ended in divorce without abuse claims being made plus all the other happy families that are united and working together. I involved myself with these cases and with what I heard from immigration and divorce attorneys and INS officials of various types I formed my own survey of the likelihood of this or that happening and the reasons why they do. I will admit there is nothing methodical and scientific in my approach in my reaching the conclusions I do. It is just what we do around here with everything when we hash things out. Hearing this and that and reaching conclusions. The exception is when a survey is taken to gather date in a more scientific manner. It would seem this would be the more logical way to reach a proper assessment of the truth. Unfortunately if the survey does not ask the right questions and certain important options are left off then the conclusions taken from this data will be inaccurate. I seen this on a survey here. I didn't want to say anything because I figured I would be accused of being biased by even mentioning this missing option. I reached this conclusion because of hearing  outlandish statements by prominent members here that such a possibility is remote to the extreme. Only I am hearing this remoteness all the time and with all the INS and attorneys I am talking to. People want to believe certain things and I am sure people will say the same thing about me. If the latter was true then why would I post videos that argue their point and what is perceived as not mine? BTW some of the videos argue for one side and some make points for the other side. My conclusion is neither side is made up of all devils or all angels.

Dave,

I don't believe that anyone ever promoted the Survey of Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce as being error-free. Quite the contrary, we have always acknowledged its weaknesses - while at the same time offering up the results for anyone to use to the extent they feel they are useful.

Did you notice in the same video you referred me to - the 4-year old video of Bonnie Erbe and her USNWR web piece - that at 3:20 into the video, Erbe acknowledges that she has not seen "data on what percentage of these marriages end up with violence or even end in divorce."

She would not be able to legitimately make that claim today - correct?

In any case, my reference to the survey was to address your hypothesis. From the quick results of reviewing the data, I cannot substantiate your hypothesis that US laws contribute to a higher rate of abuse claims.

- Dan

[Maxx2]

Dave,

In any case, my reference to the survey was to address your hypothesis. From the quick results of reviewing the data, I cannot substantiate your hypothesis that US laws contribute to a higher rate of abuse claims.

- Dan

I have not seen any data collected on this either. And it would be rather difficult to collect such data. Let me explain further.

A while back I made the statement, "that 90% of the time when a foreign woman has not gotten her green card and the marriage is breaking up she will claim to be abused". It was a rather bombastic statement made by me but it was based on observations of many of these break ups. The "90%" was just a number I picked out of thin air but did represent the high percentage I noticed happening when these conditions came together. I will admit saying such things does not bring me much credibility. But they were said by me back in my early years. However what came after I made that statement posted on a message board was something I have not forgotten. A certain poster, an experienced well known around here immigration attorney said in response. "Yes, Maxx I have talked with my colleagues (other immigration attorneys) and we noticed this to be true".

My very first time I heard of this is when I contacted a immigration attorney while I was married. I explained to him what was going on and that I intended to end the marriage. He told me I could expect an abuse charge made against me to get a green card. When I brought this subject up to the divorce attorney they recommended a man experienced with these types of marriages he said it was "100% certainty she will do this". The District Director whose office is in Bloomington Minnesota had two cases a day of men coming down there whose marriages where ending this way. He was the man that said to Arlington if they instituted the rules for a easy way to get a green card is to claim abuse there was going to be a epidemic of these cases.

Why this happens is easy to figure. If a marriage is breaking up or the immigrant woman or man wants out and they haven't gotten their green card yet they face a difficult uncertain future for the continuation of the green card process. Filing a I-360 is much more certain to be granted than filing a I-751 to remove conditions. That is a good attempt was made at marriage. The USCIS conducts interviews for the later. It helps to have the USC cooperate in filing this. Things like proof on marriage counseling sessions would be helpful to include in the petition and so on. Then it's up to the adjudicator processing case. Many get rejected especially those with short term marriages like Yelena's in the video I posted "VIDEO: RW claims abuse". Hers was only 6 months in length and her husband and his family were hostile towards her. What chance would she have at filing a I-751? Even with her husband's help it isn't guaranteed.  The USCIS adjudicator seeing it is just 6 months long and may think the marriage was fraudulent. An immigration attorney in a video I hadn't posted yet told me that Americans often help immigrants get green cards by marriage for either money or for altruistic reasons. The USCIS knows this and that is why there is all these laws.

Then I found out how risk free filing an I-360 abuse petition was. Julia the immigration attorney filed over two hundred of them. Mostly for Russian immigrants. About twelve of them were for men claiming to be abused by their American wives. Out of this 200 plus petitions she had only 2 rejections. One for a woman who didn't disclose her background of 14 arrests for prostitution and the other for a woman who didn't marry her original sponsor. And how diligent is I.C.E. in investigating fraud? The case that came to Julia's mind was something that happened in 2006. "More than twenty exotic dancers filed a joint I-360 petition and the INS thought there must be something wrong as why would all these women all working in the same strip joint have the same story? so they decide to investigate." So what I am saying the avenue to get your green card by filing an abuse claim is wide open. One thing leads to another and this is why I have come to the conclusions I do. Is there dry data that supports my claim? Statistics and so on? No. But to gather such data one would have to work off the premise that those supplying the data maybe engaged in some sort of fraud or covering it up for their own reasons. Immigration attorney who tell the truth of what is going on here and there when they are not engaged in spouting the party line. Arriving at the truth is complicated business.






 

[dbneeley]

Percentages for those RW claiming abuse are very difficult to come by--and in this case, I think this is one limitation of the survey.

For many years (and I presume even now) there was a document in Russian instructing RW how to game the system by a marriage to an American, then to quickly file an allegation of abuse. This circulated on various Russian-language email lists and forums frequented by the more mercenary types of women.

I seriously doubt that this kind of woman would commonly be hanging around any forum like this one...or at least very few of them at any rate.

David

[Maxx2]

I seriously doubt that this kind of woman would commonly be hanging around any forum like this one...or at least very few of them at any rate.

David

I have always believed that as well. You see very few if any sharks on these marriage supporting forums.

[Shadow]

Percentages for those RW claiming abuse are very difficult to come by--and in this case, I think this is one limitation of the survey.

For many years (and I presume even now) there was a document in Russian instructing RW how to game the system by a marriage to an American, then to quickly file an allegation of abuse. This circulated on various Russian-language email lists and forums frequented by the more mercenary types of women.

I seriously doubt that this kind of woman would commonly be hanging around any forum like this one...or at least very few of them at any rate.

David

I do not know if you ever caught a copy of the document, but what I have seen (thanks to tha ladies of Antidate) it seems to be mostly an urban legend. There has been a book on how to date foreign men, but this was at a similar level of e-books and printed book for clueless men on how to meet Russian women.

[Maxx2]

I do not know if you ever caught a copy of the document, but what I have seen (thanks to tha ladies of Antidate) it seems to be mostly an urban legend. There has been a book on how to date foreign men, but this was at a similar level of e-books and printed book for clueless men on how to meet Russian women.

For a while I had a link to a website in Russia that said it had this course to teach Russian women how to marry and then later divorce American men. It was course similar to one I recently seen on how to teach Russian women to be ultimate sex machines. KenC posted it. Anyway I later checked out the link a few years later and it was no longer working. I do remember it around 2004 and it was in Russian and I didn't understand anything on it. I remember older posters posting on another board about this. It wasn't a hot topic.