Re: Women and Work in the USSR

[Misha]

I was specifically referring to the 1950's.  As I posted, once peasants were allowed to leave the collectives, the number of women in the workforce increased dramatically.

So, you talk about the 1960s and when this is shown to be incorrect, you say that you really meant to talk about the 1950s  Fine, but let's keep in mind that Lenin's wife has pushed the concept of the worker-mother which became part of the Soviet ideal. Though Stalin pushed a patriarchial ideal and pushed forward a number of measures such as outlawing abortion, these measures were relaxed in the 1950s after his death, and the Soviet ideal of the worker-mother came back to the fore. This began the process of having women return in larger numbers to the workforce and the Soviet state instituted in the 1950s policies such as state-sponsored maternity leaves and the state's support of the children of working mothers also encouraged women to work. As well, in the 1950s, abortion was once again legalized and divorce laws were liberalized once again. In other words, the 1950s was a transition period and the Soviet State, Soviet society, and Soviet television would certainly not have idealized the mother-housewife  :evil:

[veritas]

So, you talk about the 1960s and when this is shown to be incorrect, you say that you really meant to talk about the 1950s  Fine, but let's keep in mind that Lenin's wife has pushed the concept of the worker-mother which became part of the Soviet ideal. Though Stalin pushed a patriarchial ideal and pushed forward a number of measures such as outlawing abortion, these measures were relaxed in the 1950s after his death, and the Soviet ideal of the worker-mother came back to the fore. This began the process of having women return in larger numbers to the workforce and the Soviet state instituted in the 1950s policies such as state-sponsored maternity leaves and the state's support of the children of working mothers also encouraged women to work. As well, in the 1950s, abortion was once again legalized and divorce laws were liberalized once again. In other words, the 1950s was a transition period and the Soviet State, Soviet society, and Soviet television would certainly not have idealized the mother-housewife  :evil:

Misha, I'm not actually taking issue with the substance of your posts here (nor with Boethius' posts),
but I just gotta wonder -- why do ya use the "evil grin" so much?  Is your intent here actually evil?   :evil:

Kevin

[Boethius]

No, Misha, go back to my original post, which was a response to your "June Cleaver 1950's" post.  My MIL always worked, which included the 1960's, but she was from a different generation.  The majority of urban women from the 1950's didn't work, either then or later, and they weren't all babushkas.

You assume too much in the idealization of women in Soviet society.  That generation grew up under the influence of parents who did not grow up in the USSR, and were not influenced by Soviet propaganda, at least, not in the way subsequent generations were.   Very few Soviet families had televisions in the 1950's.  In fact, the first Soviet televisions weren't even produced on a massive scale until the late 1950's (around 1957).  Most villages in Ukraine didn't have access to televisions until well into the 1960's.

Divorce laws were so liberalized that until the early 1970's, each divorce was published in Kyiv's daily paper.

[Misha]

The majority of urban women from the 1950's didn't work, either then or later, and they weren't all babushkas.

Well, to quibble, the "urban" women in the Soviet Union in the 1950s would still have been a small minority of all women. It is the 1950s that urbanization begins in earnest. As women moved from the farm (where they worked) to the city (where they worked), the minority of urban women in the Soviet Union who did not work would become a minority in the cities (even if your stats are correct) as starting in the 1950s and ending a decade or so later as women entered the workforce in large numbers. So, my original statement is still correct. There were no June Cleaver's in the Soviet Union. Sure, the mothers with lots of small children at home would not have worked, but women whose children were already at school (i.e. the June Cleaver model) would have been under pressure to work by the late 1950s. That is all I have to say on the topic.

[Boethius]

Well, to quibble, the "urban" women in the Soviet Union in the 1950s would still have been a small minority of all women. It is the 1950s that urbanization begins in earnest.

True, but even in 1950, the urban population in Ukraine was about 40%, in Russia, about 45%.  Not insignificant.

As women moved from the farm (where they worked) to the city (where they worked), the minority of urban women in the Soviet Union who did not work would become a minority in the cities (even if your stats are correct) as starting in the 1950s

No, that didn't start in the 1950's.  It started en masse in the 1970's.  Until that time, people on collective farms did not have passports, and, therefore, could not leave the kolkhoz.

So, my original statement is still correct. There were no June Cleaver's in the Soviet Union. Sure, the mothers with lots of small children at home would not have worked, but women whose children were already at school (i.e. the June Cleaver model) would have been under pressure to work by the late 1950s.

But, there were women who didn't work, yet shopped, cooked, cleaned, sewed, etc.  Did they have a June Cleaver standard of living?  No.  But there definitely were large numbers of women who did not work outside the home.

Finally, sorry, I hit "modify" instead of "quote" in your post.  I've restored it, and didn't change the original content.  I apologize for that.

[Misha]

But there definitely were large numbers of women who did not work outside the home.

Sure, the women with small children  But, feel free to find the exact stats to prove otherwise.

[Boethius]

Based on the statistics I provided, in the period at issue, only 29 million women in a population of over 100 million (from my stat) worked.  That can hardly account solely for women with small children.

[Misha]

Based on the statistics I provided, in the period at issue, only 29 million women in a population of over 100 million (from my stat) worked.  That can hardly account solely for women with small children.

Depends, does this stat include the women in the state and collective farms who were working but may not have been counted in the statistics?

[acctBill]

True, but even in 1950, the urban population in Ukraine was about 40%, in Russia, about 45%.  Not insignificant.

No, that didn't start in the 1950's.  It started en masse in the 1970's.  Until that time, people on collective farms did not have passports, and, therefore, could not leave the kolkhoz.

But, there were women who didn't work, yet shopped, cooked, cleaned, sewed, etc.  Did they have a June Cleaver standard of living?  No.  But there definitely were large numbers of women who did not work outside the home.

Finally, sorry, I hit "modify" instead of "quote" in your post.  I've restored it, and didn't change the original content.  I apologize for that.

Boethius there were literally millions of women in the Soviet workforce pre WW2 and of course during the war women served in the Soviet military in great numbers performing virtually every task that a Soviet man did.  My wife tells me that her maternal grandmother ended WW2 as a commander of a group of tanks, there were tank crews in her group and others made up entirely of women. 

Men and women left the collective farms for one simple reason they were needed to industrialize the USSR and it couldn't be done with men alone.  Remember Stalin launched his idea of command economy in the mid 1920's and for this needed women in industry.   

http://wiki.cve.org.co/Subjects/FamilyIssues/Feminism/FamilyDissolutionLaw/WomenInTheSovietUnion.pdf

[Boethius]

Depends, does this stat include the women in the state and collective farms who were working but may not have been counted in the statistics?

Yes, it includes the entire workforce.  That's why the numbers increase significantly once rural dwellers obtained internal passports.

Boethius there were literally millions of women in the Soviet workforce pre WW2 and of course during the war women served in the Soviet military in great numbers performing virtually every task that a Soviet man did.  My wife tells me that her maternal grandmother ended WW2 as a commander of a group of tanks, there were tank crews in her group and others made up entirely of women.  

I never said there weren't.  Even with the "June Cleaver" image of the West, there were also millions of women in the workforce in the West, too.  Both my Grandmothers, for example, worked outside the home.  

My husband's aunt was a nurse on the battle front during WWII, and died at Stalingrad.

Men and women left the collective farms for one simple reason they were needed to industrialize the USSR and it couldn't be done with men alone.  Remember Stalin launched his idea of command economy in the mid 1920's and for this needed women in industry.    

There was an industrial push in the late 1920's/early 1930's (coinciding with collectivization) yet women's participation in the labour force decreased in every year after NEP.  After WWII, there was no such industrial push again until the 1960's, with it peaking once peasants legally could leave the collective farm.  Further, there was virtually no economic growth in the USSR from after the early 1960's.  

[acctBill]

Yes, it includes the entire workforce.  That's why the numbers increase significantly once rural dwellers obtained internal passports.


I never said there weren't.  Even with the "June Cleaver" image of the West, there were also millions of women in the workforce in the West, too.  Both my Grandmothers, for example, worked outside the home.  

My husband's aunt was a nurse on the battle front during WWII, and died at Stalingrad.
 

There was an industrial push in the late 1920's/early 1930's (coinciding with collectivization) yet women's participation in the labour force decreased in every year after NEP.  After WWII, there was no such industrial push again until the 1960's, with it peaking once peasants legally could leave the collective farm.  Further, there was virtually no economic growth in the USSR from after the early 1960's.  

Boethius I think you some missed information in the article. The article states "In the 1950s and early 1960s the economy grew by 10-11 percent a year, two or three times faster than most capitalist countries." That's pretty good economic growth by anyone's definition.  As for the later years while the economy was still in positive territory at 3% but the Soviet government realized that many women were only having one child.  The government was trying to increase the population of the USSR by allowing women more time at home with the hope that they would have more children.  Something that hasn't worked even in 2010. 

[Boethius]

The growth of the Soviet economy was always overinflated by the Soviets, and overestimated by the CIA.  This has been now confirmed by an analysis of Soviet archives, particularly in the last half decade.  Most academics now believe the Soviet economy saw no real growth from the early 1960's on.  Similarly (thematically, though off topic), the figures for the deaths from collectivization in Ukraine are now estimated to be under 5 million (can't recall the exact number offhand, it's between 4.2 and 4.8 million), far under the claims of up to 10 million made by many previously.  WWII deaths were underreported by about 6 million.

[acctBill]

The growth of the Soviet economy was always overinflated by the Soviets, and overestimated by the CIA.  This has been now confirmed by an analysis of Soviet archives, particularly in the last half decade.  Most academics now believe the Soviet economy saw no real growth from the early 1960's on.  Similarly (thematically, though off topic), the figures for the deaths from collectivization in Ukraine are now estimated to be under 5 million (can't recall the exact number offhand, it's between 4.2 and 4.8 million), far under the claims of up to 10 million made by many previously.  WWII deaths were underreported by about 6 million.

With regard to the "over counting" of the deaths from collectivization in Ukraine, I have heard that the Kremlin is trying to rehabilitate Stalin's image.  

[Shadow]

With regard to the "over counting" of the deaths from collectivization in Ukraine, I have heard that the Kremlin is trying to rehabilitate Stalin's image.  

The Kremlin has no need to rehabilitate Stalin's image. People outside Russia would never buy it, and Russia has no reason to promote Georgian leaders at this time. 

[Boethius]

With regard to the "over counting" of the deaths from collectivization in Ukraine, I have heard that the Kremlin is trying to rehabilitate Stalin's image.  

True, but the new statistics come from a Ukrainian historian, Stanislav Kulchytsky.