Website Tactics

[holyoak]

Hello, and welcome to my first thread outside the Ice-Breakers!

There has been a lot of great info on this site, but I thought it would be nice to collect the info on 'Website Tactics' for newbies like me into one thread.  This is a collection of things I have read here, on other sites, and some of my own ideas.  So 'thank you' to all the sources of information, but I am not going search back and cites sources; too much work.  Also, if you have a question of comment about my personal search, my ethics, my intellect or my personal hygiene, please post in my Ice-Breakers thread http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12641.0.


Let's try to keep the focus on this thread on general knowledge and tactics. If you do have advice that is more specific than general, such as specific to monthly pay sites (EM, RussianEuro...), pay per letter sites (HRB, Aweb...), or free sites (Mamba, vKontakte...), please reference this specificity in your post to help maintain clarity for us noobs.    I know we can show the world we can keep at least one thread on track, if we all pull together!


First a couple of assumptions:

A.  You are trying to find a spouse to spend the rest of your life with, not a date.  Dating strategies are different, the focus here is to locate sincere, self-respecting women with 'good values'.
B.  You are willing to commit the time and cash that the search requires.  This varies by individual, but it will entail a significant portion of your disposable time and money, otherwise she will feel (rightly) that you aren't that committed.  If this is a problem, I would suggest writing to women's prisons, as I imagine there are many women there, starved for attention, just waiting for a letter from you.  I'll bet they make very cheap dates and keep regular hours,and will be very happy to spend time with you.


Next, a couple more assumptions to identify the central concerns that require balancing in this endeavor. A lot of this is WO vs WM rehash, but lets focus on just web tactics in this thread.

C.  Women want (in general) to be the most important focus on your life, to be loved above all others, to be the 'only one' for you.  The are wary of keyboard romeos and men afraid of making commitments, they are (hopefully) tired of players.
D.  Men want the 'best one', or maybe the best that they can get, which requires searching through many women.  Men are concerned with putting all their eggs into one basket (I know that technically the women have the eggs, but I am curious to see what kind of puns come up. Sandro?), and coming away empty-handed.  Men also have a tendency to keep looking 'perfect', rather than committing to 'good enough'.



So how to balance these two concerns?  First, I would rule out anything that requires dishonesty, not worth it, IMO.  On the other hand, there is no need to provide information the other person does not want to know, or does not ask for.  There is a fine balance here, and with women (in my experience), if you lose your balance either way (especially in a new relationship), recovery is nearly unattainable.  You will either be a liar or a player, and she is not going to remove that label, ever.


Okay, on to the tactical (not strategic, you have to come up with that on your own) moves online.

#1.  Have a strategy.  Know beforehand what you are looking for, and what you are not.  What you can commit to, and vice versa.  Are you really willing to travel?  When will it work best for you?  What are your deal-breakers?  You need solid answers to these questions before any contact with women.  Any inconsistencies in your strategic plan will come off (IMHO) as very unattractive.   Stay consistent.

#2.  Check out the websites.  I'm not going to make recommendations, there are a bunch of threads to help you with that already.  Learn the various features, pricing, and 'pool of profiles' differences.  Know what you are getting into.

#3.  Create discardable 'dummy' profiles on the sites that interest you. This is not dishonest IMO, as long as you never write to anyone from them (cue BillyB).  These profiles are only for 'scouting' purposes, and they are definitely useful for this purpose.  There should be no info that links back to you, and you should always be prepared to discard them.  A new anonymous e-mail account is useful to combine with these 'scouts'.  I wouldn't put a lot of effort into theses profiles, in fact i think the crappier the better, although I wouldn't lie about anything either.  No photos.

#4.  Check out the guys.  A lot of sites rank profiles, so let's see who is at the top for the guys in your age range.  What is a woman going to see if she is browsing the site?  How can you stand out from this crowd in a positive way?  I would finish by checking out the most popular guys in your age range on vKontake, because that will be the best (IMO) representative of what 'normal' FSU girls find attractive.  Popular profiles on vK are different from popular Facebook profiles.  Note the differences in dress, in the (lack of) smiles, in the poses.  Know why these are the best rated profiles on vK?  Because FSU women like them.

#5.  Get some quality photos.  Take ideas and boundaries from step 3, and make them work for you.  You will never have a second chance to make that first impression.  This is THE most important step in the tactical phase, and should reflect back to your overall strategy.  Quality is more important than speed.  You should have at least four quality photos, not more than ten, preferably without the appearance of a professional studio.  At least one must be a clear face shot.  If you have a good body, you probably want to show that too, but not to excess.  These are the basics.  To take these ideas a step further, your photos should stand out from the general vKontakte sample, but not TOO much.  This is another area where a balanced approach is better.  If you have a question in your mind about whether or not to use a photo, the answer is probably no. Take the time to got the best photos you can.

#6.  Write your profile text.  Be honest (Assumption A), but make sure you emphasize your good points.  This is another area where quality trumps speed again, and balance pays dividends.  Check what other guys have written.  What can you say to stand out in a good way?  Have you avoided standing out in a bad way?  Simple phrases and sentences are generally better (unless that runs counter to your strategy).  Try putting what you write through an online back translation.  Does it make sense after two translations?  If not, try other wording that does.  Again, you will not get a second chance at a first impression, so make it good.  If you are in a hurry, telling yourself that it will be okay to cut corners here cuz you just need to get up and running quickly, and the love of your life will be waiting there for you and not be concerned about your shitty profile and photos, you should see a huge RED FLAG in the mirror.  Look back at the first assumption, ans realize it works both ways.  Be honest.

#7.  Write a 'polite no' letter (not necessary on EM).  Take some time and thought to write a form letter (and save it) that lets a woman know that you are not interested.  Be honest, but be a gentleman.  Nobody wants to have their time wasted, and you need to be ready to use this option.  Best to think about it beforehand. The attitude that 'I'm going to give everyone a chance', as well as the attitude that 'I don't need to bother writing her back' are both RED FLAGS.  Look back to her concerns (Assumption C) and remember that you are a gentlemen.  It only requires the time write once, and then the time to copy and paste.

#8.  Learn the lingo.  By now there is a good chance your scouts have a full mail box.  There is also an excellent chance (not 100%) that all these letters are crap.  Browse them to get a feel for what an insincere proposition sounds like.  After twenty or thirty, you should get a good grasp on the favorite flavors of FSUW bullshit.  Don't fall for these, don't let them get you discouraged, and remember that knowledge is power.  You are saving yourself time, money and trouble by learning this foreign language.  Most importantly, you are setting yourself up to recognize what you are looking for when you see it.  Again, there is no rush right now.

#9.  Come up with a list of who you are interested in.  Use scouts for this.  While I would like to trust everyone, there is no way for you to know how much info about you is available to the agency on the back end.  Do the women (or their agencies) see how many profiles you have viewed?  Which ones?  How many times?  The answers to all these are 99% 'no', but not 100% 'yes', and it is easier to just make it a non-issue.  There is another important reason for scouts right now.  It is very easy to get a 'kid in a candy store' mentality on these sites.  Now it the time to go for that if its what you want.  Look at all the profiles you want while scouting, but the switch from a 'scout' profile to a genuine profile is also a switch in mentality.  Once you are on your real profile, you are no longer a 'kid in the candy store' (Assumption C once again), you are a grown-up, responsible gentleman in thoughts, words and deeds.

#10.  Activate your profile(s).  This is when the clock starts ticking.  Remember (Assumption C) that is important not to waste others' time, or even give the appearance of wasting time.  A profile that is active for too long a time is a RED FLAG.

#11.  Broadcast.  Be respectful as you write.  First, put every woman you are going to contact on your 'favorites', 'friends', or 'hotlist'.  A woman does not want to get a letter from you, and then see that she is not on your short list.  Thinks she won't check?  Thats hilarious! IMO, don't even mess around with smiles, kisses winks (though the EOI model on EM is wise to follow) , or if you do send a smile/kiss/wink follow up with a letter quickly.  Its hard not to use  a form letter for the first letter, but I would challenge you to personalize each letter to some extent.  I know its overkill, but in my mind I imagine that any two of the women I write at this point could be best friends.  Would I be comfortable with them comparing letters?  This first letter should again be very well and very simply written, no slang, no puns , no double-entendres.  I would translate it into Russian and include the translation.  This is the last part of the first impression phase, and miscommunication or mistranslation are deal breakers right now.  Be selective;  IMO the worst case scenario is trying to write 30 women at once.  If you have that kind of time, you need a hobby.  If you think copying and pasting the same letter 30 times is going to work, see Assumptions C & D.  Be consistent with your overall strategy.  Another bad scenario is a positive response from someone you are not really interested in.  Be respectful, be selective.

#12.  Read the responses.  A week to ten days is plenty of time to hear back from your broadcast.  Do not be in a rush to respond to the first women that write back, try to hear from everybody.  Two days is about as long as a gentleman would wait to respond, so this is a bit of a waiting game balanced with a timely response.  My rule of thumb, no third letter unless I'm really considering a visit.  Too much downside, not enough upside.  At this point, try to hear back from everyone without getting to a third letter from anyone.

#13.  Narrow the field.  Don't juggle more than you can handle.  Think back to your overall strategy, and be honest about how many women you want to pursue.  Personally, my comfort level is one, but YMMV.  At this point, balance is again very important.  You need to trust but verify.  Any woman who feels that you do not trust her is unlikely to trust you, but you don't want to invest time and emotions into someone who is not sincere.  This is another time for scouting, especially on vK.  I don't want to get into too much detail, as we need to be aware that scammers read this site too, but its not to hard to find people online in the internet age.  A phone call is another option.  While its possible that the woman you are writing to has no phone and not into social networking, it is highly unlikely.  Use a scout here, as no woman wants to feel like she is being cyber-stalked. You want to find out who she is without it getting back to you.  If you find her online, don't jump right into communication with her there.  Ask first, be respectful.  If you are not sure whether to 'cut' someone or not, the answer is probably yes.  Get down to your comfort level quickly; if communication is going to end, you will both feel better if it ends sooner rather then later. Don't be a juggler unless you are a juggler.

#14.  Use the polite 'no'.  Your real profile will generate some attention, do not neglect it, but  do not pursue.  Every letter you receive deserves a response.  Do you think BillyB is the only one who scouts?  The possibility that you are being scouted, by her or one of her friends, is very real.  The only honorable way out is a 'polite no', which you have already prepared.  Use it.

#15.  Hide your profile(s).  Once you have gotten to the fifth letter or so with the woman (women) on your A list, change your profile(s) to hidden or inactive.  Do not wait for her to ask, do not think it is not on her mind.  Think she won't check?  Again, hilarious!

#16.  Do not push too hard to circumvent the agency.  They have provided you with value; without them you wouldn't be writing this woman.  Yes, I agree that you want to move to chat, phone or Skype, and quickly, for better communication.  But if you push too hard too fast, you will come across as desperate, creepy, cheap or 'greedy'.  Enjoy the dance, and be consistent.  After all, you knew what you were getting into, right?

Okay, so now I can't wait to edified and corrected.  Have fun and have at it!

[ECOCKS]

Many of the things you write are fine and represent the distillation of several posts from experienced members. Remember then that as the comments and discussion kick in, it will usually be focused on the one thing someone was moved to disagree with rather than 9 things they accepted.

So, given you have several good points and a few which are sort of neutral or based upon an individual's preference for their style, your #16 a is seriously poor piece of advice.

Getting control of the communications process is critical to developing a real relationship. Can you do it in one or two exchanges? Maybe/probably not. Within 4-6? Definitely recommended. Are you spending hundreds of dollars to talk with someone who says they love you and wish to build their life with you? Only if you (and/or they) are complete fools.

Any woman who is "seriously" looking for a long-term relationship will have no problem understanding that an "agency" is not going to build the relationship for the couple. The per communication fees lend themselves to scamming or milking a client and represent that much less that you can spend on travel, the visa process and feathering the nest in an appropriate manner.

I would also disagree with #3 as dummy profiles are wasting time of both you and the woman/women involved).

[I/O]

Often those with least experience are the most liberal with advice. 

[Shadow]

1. Do not spend time making fake profiles. They are not useful. Also as the agencies usually have tools to check for double accounts, they might haunt you later as you could be marked as not serious.

2. Do not hide you profile until you have decided on mutual exclusitivy, usually this happens after a successful meeting. Otherwise you might be seen as someone leading women to believe they are the one person you are interested in.

3. Read reviews and ask on forums. There are many people willing to help out, and usually you will find someone who has use the same site.

[tfcrew]

Often those with least experience are the most liberal with advice.  

You've noticed that too?

[JohnDearGreen]

holyoak,

Which of the following men do you think most ladies would prefer to meet:
a) the stumbling, bumbling, inexperienced 1st trip traveler
b) the smooth operator 10th trip traveler who seems to have all the answers

My clueless 1st trip was the most productive for me.

[Gator]

Holyoke,

It is good to have a plan.  However, flexibility is paramount in its implementation.

[Al_C]

I agree with Ecocks here, especially when it comes to circumventing the agency as soon as possible.  Agencies make their money from trips and communication; in other words they don't want you to get married.  They want you to write and travel again and again and again, and some will even go as far as to distort communications to keep you unmarried.

I used an agency once upon a time.  They made it nice and convenient.  They sent a car to the airport to pick me up.  They booked my hotel for me.  They picked my lady up and brought her to the hotel.  But they were not honest, and it took a second trip and a meeting with a new lady that was disastrous for me to find that out.  To make me happy, they dug up a prostitute and had her pretend to fall in love with me.

Now I'm not complaining about the sex.  The prostitute showed me a really good time.  But that was not why I went there, and the fact remained that I was lied to and defrauded.

As I posted many other times here, use an agency that gives you the ladies' real e-mail and phone number and does not control your communication.  If you have a language barrier, there are independent translators out there.  You can book you own plane and hotel on the internet.  You do not need an agency to control things.

[Gator]

To make me happy, they dug up a prostitute and had her pretend to fall in love with me.

Good training for when you encounter a Green Card Girl. 

[Shadow]

As soon as possible means different things for different people. If you speak 3 or 4 languages, are used to book trips over the internet, its going to be much easier as when you have never left your country and your internet experience is limited to the knowledge of your children.

Agencies are in the business to earn money. You have to accept that, and some agency owners have a price they wish to get for having to give up one of their women. that means you either pay the price (directly or indirectly by using their service) or give up on the woman.

And yes, there are many agency owners more interested in money as in the feelings of the people theuy play with. Those are the ones to be avoided.

[XMan]

As soon as possible means different things for different people. If you speak 3 or 4 languages, are used to book trips over the internet, its going to be much easier as when you have never left your country and your internet experience is limited to the knowledge of your children.

Agencies are in the business to earn money. You have to accept that, and some agency owners have a price they wish to get for having to give up one of their women. that means you either pay the price (directly or indirectly by using their service) or give up on the woman.

And yes, there are many agency owners more interested in money as in the feelings of the people they play with. Those are the ones to be avoided.

I agree.  For the inexperienced an agency can be very beneficial, based upon two assumptions:
1) They are legitimate.  That does not mean they are not in business to make a profit.  It means one actually gets the services one pays for.
2) They are competent. 

Several years ago I was working with an agency who stated on their website that one could request (for a fee) contact information from women that one was corresponding with.  The caveat was that the woman had to agree to releasing that information.  Interestingly, after several months of correspondence, none of the three women "felt comfortable" releasing their information yet.  I contacted the agency owner, expressed my concerns, and got a response saying that some women had received "surprise visitations" or had other bad experiences when releasing contact information.  Also, some had seen the infamous anti-foreign marriage TV programs (women turned into sex slaves / prostitutes, mistreated in other ways, etc., and I am sure some of these things actually happen, but who can say as to on what scale).  Who knows if I was getting real, honest information, or simply a smoke screen to avoid sharing contact information and thus making certain letter writing and translating fees kept coming in.  I told the agency owner I felt I had to walk away because this seemed questionable at best that none wanted to share contact information.  So I walked.  I'll never know with absolute certainty if that was the best thing to do.  I do know that my fly by the seat of my pants trip following this particular event was a failure.  I chose to meet women through "free sites" and a couple of agencies that had pay-per-introduction set ups.  It could just have easily been a resounding success.  It was not.  Sic vita est.

The letter writing mills, of which there are an inordinate number, may have a few real women, but finding them is akin to the proverbial needle in a haystack. 

Some prefer the "free personals sites."  I would say that nothing is free.  If one speaks / writes the language well, or finds an English speaking woman, great.  Otherwise, one is still going to pay someone for translation, or risk the inevitable confusion (or worse) of electronic translators.  One still has the same travel costs, apartment rental, etc.  At best one potentially avoids surcharges or higher prices for paid for similar items acquired through the agency, as opposed to handling it independently.  Or one may find oneself being charged more than the agency price because one does not understand the going rates for apartments or other items.  I suppose my point is that no matter how you slice it, you are going to pay.  How much you save is a toss up.

Folks often seem wary, at best, or more often openly scoff at the idea of full service agencies.  Those also have their place, again based upon whether or not they are competent and provide the services paid for.  When one adds up all the miscellaneous costs (hiring an interpreter, booking an apartment, paying for individual introductions if using a traditional agency, etc.) it may approach the package cost of paying for a full service arrangement.  I did the math, as the saying goes, and from a service and support perspective came out ahead using full-service as opposed to the fly by the seat of my pants trips or the nickel and dime you to death traditional agency trips.  But again, it is dependent in part upon the situation, comfort zone, level of service and support expected and received, etc. 

If one can do everything oneself, avoiding the agencies completely may be wise. 
If one cannot, then one should consider the risk / reward scenarios and take whatever approach feels like the best option. 

To put it simply, my personal experience was that I never got hosed by the full service agency. 
I did, however, feel I wasted significant time and money with traditional agencies and free sites. 

I would imagine that there are men whose experiences were entirely different from mine. 
Advice is only good advice if it works for you.

[JohnDearGreen]

Agencies are in the business to earn money. You have to accept that, and some agency owners have a price they wish to get for having to give up one of their women. that means you either pay the price (directly or indirectly by using their service) or give up on the woman.

I would qualify that statement by saying "agency management" and not necessarily everyone at the agency.  I was refused the telephone contact information by the US offices of a major agency.  I called the manager at the US office to complain.  He suggested I do a $x/minute 3way phone call with their agency, to call the ladies, and ask them for their phone numbers.  

I would suggest trying to deal with some of the local people at a lower level such as the office workers.  Results might be different.

When I arrived in Kyiv I worked with a very nice young lady interpreter from a different agency.   She was familiar with some of the other agencies.  I showed her my printout of the ladies profiles I had purchased.   She took my name and address, called the Kyiv agency office to confirm that I had actually made those purchases, obtained the contact information for me, called a few of the ladies to set up meetings, and interpreted for me when needed.  She charged me nothing extra above her $5/hour fee for her time.

[Kuna]

Holyoak,

My tactical plan went something like this:

1. Literally write down a list of what I wanted in a partner and why

2. Join EM and freepersonal.ru, put absolute minimal information in my profile, respond to no incoming messages and write only to ladies that fitted my predetermined criteria. I could only find 20 such ladies on each site.

3. Decide on when I was traveling to UA and tell the ladies this in my first email (demonstrating I was serious and not going to write to them forever)

4. Send my letters, wait for replies, and make decisions on who I would respond to based on the content of their letters.

note: From 40 initial letters I think I got about 36 responses...  it only took one or two exchanges to whittle that down to 6 or so ladies I was still writing to.

5. Continue to refer back to the pre-written "requirements list" because it's easy to be tempted to chase things you were not interested in when you started out.

6. If ever in doubt, I "disengaged" quickly and politely. I didn't need PROOF someone was a scammer or a bad match...  I decided a hint of doubt was enough.

Examples included one girl who went crazy when saying I should learn Ukrainian not Russian... maybe useful advice, but the way she went about it was"uncomfortable". Another example was one girl who was the front runner for a while, but then every letter started to focus on her woes, and how hard life was, and how winter was coming and she needed to save money for a heavy coat. I was not intending to be a sponsor, so didn't allow myself to become on.

7. Agree to meet however many women you feel comfortable with (intended meeting 3, did meet 2, had a fourth one contact me while I was there -very tempting, but I didn't meet her, should have just met one, my now wife) AND THEN GET ON A PLANE and get off the Internet!


While I thought this plan was well considered I have to tell you one vital aspect I didn't originally consider...flexibility.

My wife was outside of my "acceptable age range" but as I went through FP's I could not help but read her profile over and over. She was different.  I was flexible and contacted her, thank God.;-)

I obviously made mistakes on my firsttrip but I think my plan was aimed at reducing risk and keeping me on track.

The only other thing I could advisemen to do is  to make the trip include some activity other than "wife-hunting"...  don't get too obsessed with it... keep busy... enjoy the journey... don't get obsessed.